Talk:Anti-Black racism

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): TajaEvans. Peer reviewers: Dcauley5.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 05:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

I'd like to start an honest discussion on the use of "Negrophobia" in politics on White Americans to influence their vote. I'd like to keep the discussion respectful, insightful and informative. Please view the link below and provide feedback.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/21/4725628-scaring-white-people-for-fun-and-profit

Magweed (talk) 06:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)Magweed

This page is slated for deletion due too only 1 reference.. I would like to add a chain from the last dicussion regarding deletion of Negrophobia from Wikipedia.. Liasted below is a a comment left by badlydrawnjeff during the last attempt to remove Negrophobia from wikipedia. Please see the references below.

Strong keep. The word has a place in an older book by the same name, published by St. Martin's Press and written by noted author and journalist Darius James, who writes books and articles about Blaxploitation. A more academic book is Negrophobia and Reasonable Racism: The Hidden Costs of Being Black in America, a more academic title through the New York University press, and Negrophobia: A Race Riot in 1906, by Mark Bauerlein with Encounter Press. The word is recognized by the American Heritage Dictionary as well. Combine these with the sources already listed in the article, and it becomes evidence that this is absolutely a necessary article. --badlydrawnjeff talk 11:05, 22 August 2006 (UTC)

Do not delete this page from Wikipedia this is very educational, it provides knowledge and insight to the issues facing America and race. A fear of black people is a phobia that exists, for history on this issue please see the link I've pasted below.

http://maddowblog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2010/07/21/4725628-scaring-white-people-for-fun-and-profit

Magweed (talk) 06:37, 25 July 2010 (UTC)Magweed

The problem is that "Negrophobia" is not specific to the US and is prevalent among many nations. It is even rampant on Wikipedia in such sites as the "Moors", where no black people of so called "Negroid" characteristics are displayed or mentioned in the article supposedly about a term that has been documented as having been used specifically for black and near black peoples of all religions for over 1400 years in Europe. "Negrophobia" is equally prevalent among Middle Easterns and North Africans perhaps even to a great extent then in America.

Why start just a discussion - why not start your page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.0.120.70 (talk) 20:07, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

this word is not the same thing as anti-blackness, why was i redirected to here from there? please keep those pages separate: the article for anti-blackness it's own thing. thank you!

As to earlier, I checked the Moors page and it now does have images of "negroid" Moors. I think this page needs a history section to describe its impact on society. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mangokeylime (talk • contribs) 00:38, 6 September 2015 (UTC)

Peer Review This article is organized quite well and touches on different aspects which is great. It includes the origins of the term, common associations and false interpretations as well. It seems that all the necessary ground has been covered here. The majority, if not all, of the sources are books which seem to be legitimately published. This shows the proper research was conducted and it definitely reflects in the content and quality of the page. One more thing, the overview was great because it acknowledged the different contexts the term may be used in, so this is great as well.Dcauley5 (talk) 02:38, 19 October 2016 (UTC)

Plan for editing: Hi! I am planning on editing the lead section by clarifying the unclear “influencing” mechanism in the second sentence of the lead section as well as by adding one more sentence with a summary of all major sections of the article.

In line with user Mangokeylime's comments, I plan on researching the history and historical impacts of the term and practises of negrophobia in order to constitute such a new section in the article. As a “Negrophobia and Identity” subpart to this new historical section, I also intend to further develop, the relevance and content of Frantz Fanon’s reflexion on negrophobia and link it to other works such as Morrison’s The Bluest Eye (1970).

I further intend to restructure the article by developing and adding all debates and discussion on the definitions of negrophobia, which are currently found under “overview”, as subparts of a new section called “Etymology and definitions” which would also include the current “Lexicology” section.

Finally, I am considering editing the references section of the article, by applying the wikipedia referencing style rule of alphabetical order and other required standards. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MarsdeMat (talk • contribs) 14:46, 9 April 2020 (UTC)

(CP peer review)

Hi! A section on the history and historical implications of Negrophobia would be well welcomed indeed, as it seems to be an important subject that is missing in this article. Frantz Fanon's works are surely very relevant and can help improve this article. "Les damnés de la terre" is a very influential work of Fanon and could be of interest to you, even though you may probably already know it. Maybe you could also create a section (or include it in the history of the term) on major historical events linked with Negrophobia? It could bring depth and perspective to this concept and its Wikipedia page. Your suggestions seem very good to me and would definitely improve the article. JeanJacquesMoldu (talk) 14:15, 14 May 2020 (UTC)

Removing redirect from anti-black and anti-blackness

These terms ("negrophobia," "anti-black" and "anti-blackness") are not the same. Generally this article would benefit from more context for its historical emergence and/or current use (the Rachel Maddow clip for instance appears to use the term sarcastically). The redirect from "anti-black" and "anti-blackness" will likely confuse and offend contemporary users looking for information on the topic of "anti-blackness." Until an article is drafted for "anti-blackness," a redirect to this Category:Anti-black racism would be more appropriate. Regardless, I am removing the current re-direct to this article. --Vaparedes (talk) 08:41, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Pathological

Apparently negrophobia is a mental disorder, not a political attitude. http://empirenews.net/american-medical-association-to-recognize-negrophobia-as-legitimate-mental-illness/ --105.4.6.142 (talk) 20:56, 26 September 2018 (UTC)

Should we move this page to Anti-Black Racism?

The term "negro" in the United States is considered highly offensive today and anti-Black racism is much more widely used. SnappyDragonPennyroyal (talk) 09:52, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

Requested move 25 February 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. There's certainly consensus that no article should exist at this title, but it looks like the move should be from Afrophobia to Anti-black sentiment, with Negrophobia then being merged into that. Closing this discussion so that a move request can be started at Afrophobia. (closed by non-admin page mover) asilvering (talk) 06:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

---

Negrophobia → Anti-black sentiment – This is a potentially contentious move, so I want to have a discourse first.
Move per norm Anti-x sentminent in
Anti-black sentiment in the United States
Anti-Korean sentiment
Anti-German sentiment
Anti-Mexican sentiment
Anti-Brazilian sentiment
Anti-British sentiment
Anti-Asian sentiment
Anti-Christian sentiment
And the list goes on. DarmaniLink (talk) 00:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

• Support as nom DarmaniLink (talk) 04:09, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support this is quite a silly name. "Negrophobia" would suggest a fear of the color Red Slash 05:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. Does anyone ever use this term? -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:27, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
• Support per nom. As a black person, this title sounds ridiculous and maybe derivative.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 23:42, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

• Comment: The more I read about it, the more I think the term "negrophobia" is a term that should be covered in this encyclopedia, but as a term and not as the umbrella terminology for this phenomenom. Also, although this article has been expanded to include general antipathy against blacks in a global context, it still seems to be fundamentally written from a South African perspective, and the term may have more relevance in that context? Regardless, what I truly want to propose is that this article be merged into the article "Afrophobia" as a subheading, and that the combined article be called "Anti-black sentiment." Both articles, though, need work.--Esprit15d • talk • contribs 15:47, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

  Actually, I agree with that. The two articles should be merged and combined under that umbrella, with information about this word as a subheading. DarmaniLink (talk) 03:36, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Requested move 13 May 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Consensus to move. However, other options also received support, including moving Anti-black racism and merging to Racism against African Americans; these can be explored at any time. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 02:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

---

Negrophobia → Anti-Black sentiment – The term Negrophobia implies an apologetic stance towards racism, the reflexive reaction in Negrophobia can be talked about in a section in the article. The bulk of this article is on racism as a result of complex thought/constructivism. Anti-Black sentiment works best imo as this is about the black phenotype and covers sentiment as well as racist or discriminatory acts. This move would be inline with:
Anti-black sentiment in the United States
Anti-Korean sentiment
Anti-German sentiment
Anti-Mexican sentiment
Anti-Brazilian sentiment
Anti-British sentiment
Anti-Asian sentiment
Anti-Christian sentiment
Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC) Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:53, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

See also Talk:Afrophobia#Requested move 13 May 2024 Alexanderkowal (talk) 07:56, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

• Support as per discussion on the Anti-African sentiment page. Walrasiad (talk) 17:17, 13 May 2024 (UTC)
• Support. I should think this term is falling out of favour: ngrams seems to agree[1]. Celia Homeford (talk) 08:55, 16 May 2024 (UTC)
• Weak Support. Any generalized sentiment against black people is racism. Any sentiment against an individual black person that derives from their being black is also racism.

It should Anti-black racism, similar to Racism against Asians. ‘Racism’ is both the more common and more descriptive term than ‘sentiment’, which is fairly euphemistic.

The examples you gave are nationalities or ethnicities, so bigotry against them is not racism. The word ‘sentiment’ is appropriate in those titles, as it covers both xenophobia and ethnic prejudice against fellow countrymen of that ethnicity. But black people are a race, so sentiment against them is racism.

Are there cases of anti-black sentiment that are not racism?

Galagora (talk) 21:19, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

I consider racism to be racist acts driven by, for instance, anti-black sentiment, however if you feel the two are the same then there is a good case for changing sentiment to racism. My reasoning is that anti-black sentiment that isn't acted on isn't racist, however that may be fallacious. Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:33, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

Would Negrophobia, as in the reflexive phobia, be considered racist? Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:35, 17 May 2024 (UTC)

• I think move to Anti-Black racism after further thought Alexanderkowal (talk) 15:46, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Support. Consensus as of Feb 2024 was that no article should exist at this title. Whether the page should ultimately be called "Anti-Black sentiment," "Anti-black sentiment," or "Anti-Black racism" is secondary to making sure the title of the article isn't "Negrophobia." It can always be moved again later once the dust settles.

Going to note that my support would be for any proposed title that doesn't sound like it was written by dixie.wikipedia.org, not exclusively this one. Kodiak Blackjack (talk) • (contribs) 07:51, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Would it be best to merge this one with Racism against African Americans, or have this one be about Africans and the African diaspora with a focus specifically on skin colour rather than culture or society, which would fit more at Afrophobia which would discuss the racism in colonial academia, and both have a section summarising Racism against African Americans? Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:24, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

Lmk if that’s incoherent Alexanderkowal (talk) 14:23, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

@Alexanderkowal: I've updated what I can within the article to match the new title, but an editor with more familiarity with the topic is needed to update Anti-Black sentiment#Debates over definitions. BilledMammal (talk) 04:53, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you, I am not an expert at all, I hope someone else can do it Alexanderkowal (talk) 08:21, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

A new move request has been relisted twice, but has had limited input so far. We have three people who've commented, and we could do with more responses to reach a strong consensus. Can anyone who commented on this previous move request weigh in? See topic below: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anti-Black_sentiment#c-Alexanderkowal-20240521082100-BilledMammal-20240521045300 Lewisguile (talk) 08:16, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Disambiguation link at top

Are people okay with how I’ve described this page?

negative sentiment towards people because of their darker skin

Alexanderkowal (talk) 10:51, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

Requested move 22 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: consensus to move the page to the proposed title at this time, per the discussion below. Please assist with cleanup or clarification of contents as needed. Dekimasuよ! 10:42, 27 August 2024 (UTC)

---

Anti-Black sentiment → Anti-Black racism – Sentiment against a 'race' is racism. Alexanderkowal (talk) 21:30, 22 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 21:57, 29 June 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. BilledMammal (talk) 23:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC) — Relisting. 173.72.3.91 (talk) 13:48, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

Note: WikiProject African diaspora, WikiProject Discrimination, and WikiProject Sociology have been notified of this discussion. Safari Scribe^{Edits! Talk!} 21:58, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

• According to the intro of the article, the two are not the same. —  AjaxSmack  05:58, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

  I don't see that. It says "also known as"?

  I think the change makes sense. Looking at Google Scholar, "anti-black racism" gets way more hits than "anti-black sentiment", so it seems to be the WP:COMMONNAME too. Lewisguile (talk) 14:12, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  Oh, do you mean this bit: "Caused, among other factors, by racism and traumatic events and circumstances, symptoms of this form of xenophobia include, but are not limited to: the attribution of negative characteristics to Black and Coloured people; the fear or strong dislike or dehumanization of Black and Coloured men; and the objectification (including sexual objectification) of Black and Coloured women"?

  While I agree that it's confusing to say "racism is caused by racism", I would just remove everything before "symptoms" in that sentence and leave it at that. Lewisguile (talk) 14:18, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

  agreed Kowal2701 (talk) 14:20, 2 July 2024 (UTC)

• The article deals with anti-Black sentiment/Negrophobia (the original article title) in the Definitions and Overview sections, while the Anti-Black racism globally macro list section deals with racism. Since the original intent of the article was to cover all aspects of anti-Black sentiment (e.g. psychological aspects, African contexts) and since the trunk of the article remains devoted to that task, I...

oppose a move as not reflecting the article's content, but support a split or merge of the Anti-Black racism globally sections if others desire. —  AjaxSmack  15:29, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I think negrophobia should be split, the current title seems apologetic to me. The concept of race was debunked ages ago, we should make clear that racism has no basis, and I think having 'negative sentiment' in the title validates it somewhat Kowal2701 (talk) 16:06, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I think I see the problem. The merge has been a bit haphazard, so the article is all over the place. I have moved a few things around and renamed some sections. Now, instead of an overview which only covers France, that info on negrophobia has been moved to "Concepts" (was "Definitions") and the French examples of racism have been moved to "Anti-Black sentiment globally" (was "Anti-Black racism globally") for consistency.

Negrophobia seems to be a more common term in France, much like negritude, where it refers specifically to very strong anti-Black racism. The usage of it as a psychiatric condition (a classic phobia like arachnophobia) seems to be more limited, and outdated. The main source for it I can find on Google Scholar is from 1993, and most other sources use it to mean anti-Black racism. Lewisguile (talk) 19:20, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

So I went down the research rabbit hole. Google Scholar has lots of good sources on this. It seems "negrophobia" in the sense of a classical phobia is actually the more recent coining of the term, and is not without controversy. E.g., it was used as a legal defence for people who murdered Black people and said they had an irrational fear. The earliest usage of the term seems to be as an equivalent to "anti-Black racism" and its usage as a classical phobia seems to be the minority viewpoint. I have rebalanced this section to reflect the literature and usage, and added some historical context.

For me, this strengthens the case for a move to Anti-Black racism, as even the definition of it as a phobia seems to be a manifestation of racism (according to RS).

Sources:

1921 usage of the term to mean anti-Black racism: https://www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00064246.2015.1012994

Negrophobia preceding xenophobia, homophobia and racism as a term (and meaning anti-Black racism): https://soar.suny.edu/bitstream/handle/20.500.12648/7164/2020-21.%20Garcia.%20Racism%20and%20the%20discourse%20of%20phobias.pdf?sequence=1

On negrophobia as a legal defence, and why that itself is racist: https://www.jstor.org/stable/1229093?seq=1 (there's actually a whole book on this by the same author) Lewisguile (talk) 20:42, 3 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with all of your​ (and User:Kowal2701's) editorial comments, but Wikipedia should also cover "limited and outdated" ideas just as we do with phrenology and drapetomania. There is a place in an encyclopedia for both an article on "negrophobia" and on Anti-Black racism, but they are not the same beast and should not share the same article. As a procedural matter (to preserve the edit history in the correct place), since this article was titled negrophobia from 2010 until earlier this year and dealt solely with the former topic, the Anti-Black racism article should be a new creation. —  AjaxSmack  01:35, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

I take your point, but there was already consensus to merge, so your suggestion would effectively undo that. The proposal here is one of what to name this article, which already covers anti-Black racism and negrophobia and doesn't need to separate them again.

I disagree that they should be separate articles anyway. It's not just that the term is outdated and limited, but that it doesn't differ significantly from the scope of anti-Black racism for its own page. I think negrophobia should be a subsection of anti-Black racism, since where it differs from the latter can be easily covered in a short section here.

If there is consensus from reliable sources that negrophobia differs significantly from anti-Black racism, I still haven't seen it. We should go with WP:RS and WP:COMMONNAME.

I'm hoping we get some more responses to the move request, however, since we've only had three people comment so far. Lewisguile (talk) 05:56, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Consensus to merge what into what? —  AjaxSmack  13:23, 12 July 2024 (UTC)

The previous consensus was to merge "Negrophobia" with "Anti-Black racism".

That resulted in the title "Anti-Black sentiment", with the caveat that this wouldn't prejudice a future move request as many people in that previous discussion weren't sure on whether "Anti-Black sentiment" or "Anti-Black racism" should be the new title.

Hence the current discussion, which is aiming to now resolve that issue. Lewisguile (talk) 11:47, 13 July 2024 (UTC)

I couldn't find any such consensus on this talk page. What are you referring to specifically? (I only saw a mention here of a possible "move...from Afrophobia to Anti-black sentiment, with Negrophobia then being merged into that", but the article that was called Afrophobia is a different article.) —  AjaxSmack  18:32, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

See "Requested move 13 May 2024", just beneath it. Link here: Talk:Anti-Black sentiment#Requested move 13 May 2024.

It's confusing because there are several merge/move requests! I couldn't find the link before either. Lewisguile (talk) 19:02, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The previous move was from Negrophobia to Anti-Black sentiment, and it was done very quickly because obv, so future discussions can be held about the better option. One guy did comment that anti-Black racism would be the better option and I agreed, others just noted their support for a move without discussing Kowal2701 (talk) 19:00, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

That's right. I think people felt strongly about the word negrophobia, so were motivated to comment. It may be that they feel less strongly about the title of the article now, or it may just be that it's bad timing. Hence why I pinged you both so we could at least decide among ourselves. Lewisguile (talk) 19:03, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I read that section and saw User:Kowal2701's comment, but I nor the closer interpreted a consensus for a title with "racism". If that consensus has now been established here, it's fine with me. My issues are more procedural: 1) that negrophobia (or whatever) is not the same thing as Anti-Black racism and so the two topics should probably be dealt with separately and 2) the edit history of the article should remain with the former topic and a new article should be created for Anti-Black racism. Neither issue is a huge deal for me; edit histories get broken all the time and tangentially related topics are often combined in articles. (I was just thinking in terms of Wikipedia the project.) I reacted more strongly to the view that "limited and outdated" subjects should not be covered in an encyclopedia. This has no policy basis; isn't everything in a encyclopedia outdated in some sense? —  AjaxSmack  19:23, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree, but outdated here meant implicitly racist. If a new article on Negrophobia were created, text would be copied over and properly attributed, with it being made clear the other article previously took its name Kowal2701 (talk) 19:34, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

I agree with you re: outdated stuff not necessarily being non-noteworthy, but the consensus there was to change the name from Negrophobia and many people expressed a desire that no article should exist at that title. That was the problem I was trying to solve, and I think it therefore makes sense to keep the (small) amount of text on Negrophobia within a more fleshed out article on Anti-Black racism rather than separating it into its own article again.

There wasn't a specific consensus previously on what the final name should be — only that it should be changed from Negrophobia. It was changed to Anti-Black sentiment as a temporary solution to action that change of name. That's my understanding, as the discussion spans what was the Negrophobia page (this one), and what is now the Anti-African sentiment page, with some on the Racism against African Americans page as well, so it's been a bit disjointed.

Other options floated were combining this page with Anti-African sentiment and Racism against African Americans, but I think there's a stronger argument for those two to remain separate from this article. E.g., Anti-African sentiment can reasonably cover white South Africans or Indian Ugandans, while Racism against African Americans is much more focused, I think, and the volume of content would probably make any merged article strongly unbalanced towards an American POV. Lewisguile (talk) 19:41, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

@AjaxSmack @Alexanderkowal I have gone through the original sources cited for Negrophobia and have expanded that subsection to fit what was there. If it were to remain here in its current form, would that work for you with the new title?

This way, Negrophobia remains as a distinct concept within the broader article, preserving the Wikipedia history and giving due weight to those concepts that are notable.

If so, I think we have consensus to go ahead and close the move request. Lewisguile (talk) 19:33, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

I'm happy with that Kowal2701 (talk) 19:49, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Ditto. Thank you for your work on this. —  AjaxSmack  19:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

Relisting comment: Final relist, as participation so far has been limited and no consensus is clear. BilledMammal (talk) 23:19, 18 July 2024 (UTC)

I wondered if you had any further comment to my last post, @AjaxSmack, @Alexanderkowal?

As reliable sources seem to indicate that negrophobia usually means anti-Black racism (and meant that before the term racism was commonly used), and that only a small minority argue it also applies to other forms of anti-Black sentiment in specific instances, it seems WP:UNDUE to keep the title as it is when the vast majority of the subject is indeed about anti-Black racism. However, I fear we're not going to get much more in the way of engagement, so it would be best if those of us who are engaging could reach a consensus.

With that in mind, another idea would be to keep anti-Black sentiment as a sort of summary page, mostly staying as it currently is, so that it briefly explains negrophobia, anti-Black racism and anything else that seems appropriate. It can also direct to a new, separate page for anti-Black racism, to cover that topic specifically in more detail. Presumably there shouldn't also be a corresponding page for negrophobia itself (since the prior consensus was that that topic shouldn't get its own page, but it seems short enough to leave it as it is here for now).

That would allow for greater scope to explore anti-Black racism elsewhere and would allow editors to delve into specific subcategories of that subject in more detail — e.g., racism against African Americans or Black Britons specifically. This would probably require little change from the existing page, although we could also make similar macro lists to the "Anti-Black racism globally" section to cover appropriate topics that may fall under the same umbrella (if there are any).

That said, I am also struggling to find other forms of anti-Black sentiment to add here (part of the original problem with the title). So maybe we also need to agree between us on what those might be, and find some reliable sources to back them up? Lewisguile (talk) 08:43, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Personally I think this page should be renamed Anti-Black racism and a new page created called Negrophobia.

The concept of race was debunked in the 50s and 60s, if you have negative sentiment towards a race ie. you see race and discriminate based on that sentiment, it is racism. Negative sentiment towards a race is racist sentiment.

Negrophobia is too niche of a topic to carry weight here imo, I think it should have its own article and then a topic/small paragraph on this page. Kowal2701 (talk) 11:57, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

The problem there is that people didn't want an article called "negrophobia", as they thought it was too outdated. Lewisguile (talk) 12:17, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

In that case, just a topic/small paragraph here Kowal2701 (talk) 12:18, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

That's what I was thinking, too. If Negrophobia can't go on its own, and most of the article is actually about Anti-Black racism, then we should just name it the latter and have a small section on Negrophobia. Lewisguile (talk) 19:24, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @BilledMammal I think this can be assessed for consensus/closure now. Only three of us have taken part in the discussion, but it's been listed three times without any further comment. All three of us are now happy with the proposed new title (Anti-Black racism) with the current wording and structure of the article post-discussion.

Hopefully this can now be closed. Let me know if you need me to list it at Closure requests, but I can see there's a backlog there and wanted to avoid increasing that. Lewisguile (talk) 10:36, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Tagging people involved in the original move from Negrophobia to Anti-Black sentiment for their input. Apologies if I missed anyone or tagged the wrong person. Proposal is to move from Anti-Black sentiment to Anti-Black racism. @Tamsier @DarmaniLink @Red Slash @Necrothesp @Walrasiad @Dympies @Asukite @Esprit15d @Vanderwaalforces @Celia Homeford @Galagora @Kodiak Blackjack Lewisguile (talk) 19:22, 19 July 2024 (UTC)

i have relisted this move as there has been no consensus yet 173.72.3.91 (talk) 13:50, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

also i Support this move as racism seems like a better term than sentiment 173.72.3.91 (talk) 13:51, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

See where the thread went here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Anti-Black_sentiment#c-AjaxSmack-20240722195700-Lewisguile-20240722193300 I believe that does show consensus.

The three of us who did respond are now agreed with the move to Anti-Black racism. By expanding the section on Negrophobia, the other two were happy not to split this article and felt the new title would cover all the subjects listed (as Negrophobia is an historic synonym for anti-Black racism anyway).

There are a few threads going on, so I apologise if it's confusing. Lewisguile (talk) 15:47, 30 July 2024 (UTC)

• Support Google Ngrams also shows a significantly higher usage of the "racism" term rather than sentiment. So despite the nomination containing no argument for why it should be moved, I think WP:COMMONNAME is a viable policy based reason. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 11:12, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Oppose per consistency: Anti-Japanese sentiment, Anti-European sentiment, Anti-Chinese sentiment, Anti-Mexican sentiment, etc.. Traumnovelle (talk) 22:32, 16 August 2024 (UTC)

The main difference between this and those terms is that Mexican, European, etc, are ethnicities, nationalities, and broad cultural groupings, not races. It is correct to label sentiment against Africans "anti-African sentiment", for example, since Africans can be white, Black, Arab, etc. But while Black people are Black (racially), they can be European, Mexican, or African as well (ethnically/nationally/culturally). So the defining feature of sentiment against them is "racism".

More to the point, there's no obligation for different articles to have similar or consistent titles, and the WP:COMMONNAME is "anti-Black racism", which is not only well defined but WP:PRECISE and not a euphemism. Lewisguile (talk) 06:16, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

If you'd read the article tilting policy you'd see that consistency is part of the WP:CRITERIA and ranks higher than common name.

>which is not only well defined but WP:PRECISE and not a euphemism

The title is not a euphemism. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:48, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Anti-European sentiment is called Anti-Europeanism, and there is a conceptual problem that Lewis has referred to that makes consistency not very strong of an argument imo Kowal2701 (talk) 06:36, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I was looking for something like anti-Causasian/anti-White but it appears there is no article for that. There isn't a conceptual problem, the scope of this article is beyond just racism and titling it as such would not be accurate. Traumnovelle (talk) 06:49, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

If you read the article, it all relates back to racism in one way or another. The article compiles several related topics — anti-Black racism, anti-Blackness, Negrophobia, colourphobia, melanophobia , internalised racism, involuntary racism, etc — which all deal with racism. Melanophobia may also deal with colourism, but that's rooted in racism as well.

There's WP:DUE weight given to those who insist -phobia words must be classical phobias, but it also explains why that insistence is rare and not historically sound (they come from hydrophobia, as in rabies, rather than actual phobias).

Without the article becoming a WP:COATRACK, I don't think it needs to be artificially broad just to include a hypothetical subject matter that may not ever be covered here. Moreover, WP:DICT means an article doesn't need to cover every facet of a word or term. Lewisguile (talk) 07:26, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

There's an article on reverse racism which is effectively anti-white racism. There's no article on Anti-White sentiment so your application of consistency is incorrect Kowal2701 (talk) 07:35, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

That's not an article on anti-white sentiment it's an article about a specific concept. Consistency is still valid see: Anti-Indian sentiment, Anti-Filipino sentiment, and Anti-French sentiment. There's about a dozen more. Traumnovelle (talk) 07:42, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Again those are ethnic groups, not races, so not applicable here Kowal2701 (talk) 08:00, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

I think the closest to those articles is Anti-African sentiment, which I think is appropriately titled. However, anti-Black racism (ABR) is a specific term, with a specific definition, backed up by scholarly sources, as well as the UN, ENAR, etc. When you look at Google Scholar, hardly anyone uses anti-Black sentiment as opposed to ABR.

The lack of an anti-white racism article isn't relevant to what this article should be called — although, if RSes use that term and there's scope for an article, I wouldn't be opposed to someone starting it, either.

I get the consistency argument, honestly, but I don't think it's the most important consideration and WP policy specifically says that consistency alone isn't a reason to use an imprecise or uncommon name for an article. Lewisguile (talk) 08:15, 17 August 2024 (UTC)

Support per WP:COMMONNAME. Discrimination on the basis of race is racism. WP:SPADE applies. CoolAndUniqueUsername (talk) 01:38, 24 August 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Scope and expansion

Development

I have done some reordering of the page and some fleshing out of the key concepts and definitions over the past couple of days to make the article more robust. I think the article is starting to come together but probably needs new material to replace the macro lists we currently have. It still feels like it needs work.

Part of the challenge facing us is that anti-Black sentiment isn't really used as a term that often in the literature. Google Scholar is much more fruitful when we explore anti-Black racism, so consider using the synonyms in the lede when looking for reliable sources.

Scope

At the moment, we are discussing whether to rename the article Anti-Black racism to make its subject clearer and use the WP:COMMONNAME, but we've only had three respondents so far. If you have any views about this, please get involved further up on this talk page.

Originally, this page was called Negrophobia (an older term for racism specific to Black Africans, coined by abolitionists) and as such did specifically focus on what we now call anti-Black racism (specifically defined as racism towards Black Africans, as shaped by their particular experiences). People objected to the old name as being outdated and offensive, and it was changed to Anti-Black sentiment as a stopgap because people were more interested in changing the name from Negrophobia to working out what to change the name to.

What this does mean is that the scope of the article is not as broad as it might at first suggest. Google Scholar confirms both anti-Black racism and Negrophobia refer specifically to racism against people of Black African descent, so to avoid WP:COATRACK and because WP:DICT, I think we need to stick to that subject primarily.

That said, I think it's worth recognising the diversity of the word Black, and what it means globally. I've clarified in the lede that Black may also include non-Africans, and have specifically moved the content added by @Novioboy to its own section rather than removing it, so that people can find the appropriate info if they come here and then explore it in more detail in the right place.

I have also given what I believe is due weight (see WP:DUE) to those scholars who argue for a broader approach to addressing anti-Blackness that includes non-African Black people. There might need to be expansion of that info as the article grows, but it seems commensurate to the rest of the material in its current state. I have used the article on Queer as a guideline here, since both Black and Queer are politicised, reclaimed umbrella terms used as self-identifiers.

That said, it may be that this article gets retitled as Anti-Black racism soon anyway, making the subject matter more explicit, in which case, there would then be room for a broader Racism against Black peoples article to give an overview of all Black groups. (And such a page could be started even if this one doesn't get renamed after all.) Lewisguile (talk) 10:31, 21 July 2024 (UTC)

yeah the title anti-black racism is less confusing than sentiment 173.72.3.91 (talk) 14:07, 30 July 2024 (UTC)