Talk:2020 World Snooker Championship

Qualifying Draw

I have filled in the seeds for the first four matches, but I am not sure whether to use "nowrap"? It seems it is not the best way to do it because of different showings on different screens? Should there be some changes to the template? Best wishes, Mrloop (talk) 14:42, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Hi Mrloop - thanks for putting the effort in here, and discussing this one. WP:NOWRAP is only for things that should always appear on one line (examples are on the link, but things like weight conversions). Names don't meet this, unless hyphenated, so you should: use

• [[Thepchaiya Un-Nooh|Thepchaiya {{nowrap|Un-Nooh}}]]

and not

• {{nowrap|[[John Higgins]]}}

for example. If it does look silly we can play around with the margins in the template to fix the majority of issues. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:03, 26 June 2020 (UTC)

Country codes

What source are we using for the three-letter country codes in this article, and snooker articles in general? They seem to follow FIFA codes, which doesn't really make a lot of sense. The official World Snooker website tends to use ISO codes for non-UK nations, many of which are the same as the ones we're using, but with a few notable differences (for example, DEU for Germany, CHE for Switzerland, MYS for Malaysia), and they also seem to use SCT for Scotland, rather than SCO. Is there a reason why we're not using the codes used by World Snooker? Most other sports articles on Wikipedia display the country codes that are used by their governing bodies. Edin75 (talk) 17:40, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

We simply use the ones pre-built into category:All country data templates. Quite happy to change them around if the nation in particular isn't suitable. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:51, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

I was just curious, to be honest. Most sports' governing bodies use IOC codes these days, football obviously uses FIFA codes, and Wikipedia articles tend to use the relevant codes for each sport. World Snooker is unusual with its use of ISO codes, but I'm not really a fan of the likes of SCT, DEU and CHE anyway, so I'm happy to leave it as it is! I just wanted to know if there was a specific source that we're using. Edin75 (talk) 18:12, 9 July 2020 (UTC)

Use of flags

All those flags in the Qualifying section.. I don't know, it just looks idiotic. Shouldn't flags be restricted to draw sheets and maybe ('vertical') lists of players? Mrloop (talk) 10:39, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

We shouldn't be using images at all within prose - let alone flags. MOS:FLAG is the relevant guideline. Needs removing Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:18, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

O'Sullivan's appearance record

I added information about Ronnie O'Sullivan's record breaking 28th consecutive Crucible appearance. This was reverted as "hardly lede worthy". Please could those with more knowledge of snooker articles than me assist with adding it to the correct place in the article. Cheers. --Jameboy (talk) 08:20, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Sure. I was going to add this to the body, most likely in the first round section. The issue of chucking this in the lede is that whilst true, it's not particularly notable. It's quite likely this will also be true next year, so would be a bit irrelevant for this tournament. It's also only talking about the event since the 1970s, and the event itself has been held since 1927. The WP:LEDE should be a summary of the rest of the article, covering the most notable parts, and should be readable on its own. A reasonably random statistic about O'Sullivan in a summary of the event (the location, dates, money, event winner, etc) seems out of place. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 08:32, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Many thanks for your help. --Jameboy (talk) 19:26, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:2020 World Snooker Championship/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: BennyOnTheLoose (talk · contribs) 09:18, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)
It is reasonably well written. a (prose, spelling, and grammar): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists): It is factually accurate and verifiable. a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR): d (copyvio and plagiarism): It is broad in its coverage. a (major aspects): b (focused): It follows the neutral point of view policy. Fair representation without bias: It is stable. No edit wars, etc.: It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate. a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
Overall: Pass/Fail:
· · ·

Comments

• Copyvio and plagiarism check: Used Earwig's Copyvio Detector. WST 32.4% match is mostly direct attributed quotes, but also the phrase "set a new record for the most combined points in a single frame at the Crucible." I suggest considering whether there is another reasonable way to include that information.

Yahoo 37.5% match is a direct attributed quote and a very common phrasing. WST 20% match is a direct attributed quote and common phrasings. 18.7% match seems to be a mirror site; 17.4% match is names and common phrasing, 16.7% match is a directly attributed quote and common phrasing; 16% match is a directly attributed quote and common phrasing; 15.3% match is a directly attributed quote and common phrasing. Reviewed the other matches of 9.9% and above, and no concerns from those.

• • Thanks for picking this one up Benny. I'll see what I can do about the rewording per WP:LIMITED Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 10:10, 27 August 2020 (UTC)

Happy to discuss, or be challenged on, any of my comments. I've made a few minor copyedits where I thought they would be uncontroversial. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 09:38, 28 August 2020 (UTC) Lee Vilenski - My comments are below, nothing major. I'll look at the lead after reviewing your responses. Thanks. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 13:01, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I've made the change to get rid of the copyvio. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Infobox

• Looks fine.

Lead

• "maiden world title" doesn't seem to appear in the body of the article or be supported by a reference.
  • I've put in "first world title" (the same deal) into the body. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
• "the 18th player to fall to the Crucible curse." - 18th doesn't seem to appear in the body of the article or be supported by a reference.
  • The number is irrelevant so I've removed. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
• "the highest of any player" doesn't seem to appear in the body of the article or be supported by a reference.
  • Now in body. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
• "tenth career maximum break" / "his first at the World Championship" / "aged 45" / "he became the oldest player to make a maximum in a professional competition" don't seem to appear in the body of the article or be supported by a reference.
  • I've now cited in body Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)

Background

• Why not use a more recent source for "Stephen Hendry is the event's most successful participant in the modern era"? (It's still true, but I think a link that includes champions after 2012 would be better.)
  • I've used the one from this year stating this from the final. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• Add source for "The previous year's championship was won by England's Judd Trump, who defeated Scotland's John Higgins in the final 18–9"
  • Not sure why I didn't cite this earlier. Must have been an oversight. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• (I wasn't sure about the phrase "several frames" here but I see it's used in the FA-rated articles for 2017, 2018 and 2019 so it's OK here too.)

Format

• What makes SnookerTrips.com a reliable source?
  • Removed - no idea on the validity, but already cited elsewhere. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• In the Snooker Scene reference, rather than "|issue=August 2020 |publisher=Halesowen: Snooker Scene Ltd.", I think it should be "|date=August 2020 |publisher=Snooker Scene Ltd. |location=Halesowen"
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Coverage

• Maybe "In other countries, Matchroom Sport.." to "In all other countries ..." - at first I took this to mean "some other countries" whereas the source supports it being all others.
  • done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:11, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Prize fund

• Looks fine.

Qualifying

• "..with 16 players progressing." Maybe a slight amendment to "..with 16 players progressing into the main draw." (Might be too picky, but every player who won a match progressed to the next round.)
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• As " Challenge Tour play-off" is currently redlinked, consider expanding "won the Challenge Tour play-off to gain a two-year professional tour card" to include a brief explanation.
  • I'm not sure what else you could say? He won a tournament before qualifying that gave him a tour card. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
    • Maybe link Challenge Tour (snooker)? The reader may not know what the challenge tour is. But if your point is that the article already says he won a tournament to give him the card then that's OK, we can't go to absolute detail on everything. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:23, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
      • I'd rather not. Someone will make the article at some point, we could redirect it, but I don't see the need. Redlinks are a thing for a reason Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 12:59, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
        • OK. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
• Why "including a 6–4 win over Michael Georgiou" but no details here about White's other win?
  • I've added both names. I don't think the score of his first match is in the cite. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "is the first Swiss player to play the mainstages of the tournament" Maybe "..became the first Swiss player" and "main stage".
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

First round

• "and [Ford] attempted a maximum break" - I think something like "was on track for ..." would be more appropriate unless there's a source where Ford says he was aiming for a maximum. (I'm reminded of that old snooker hall comment made after someone pots the first red and a black - "he's on for a maximum".)
  • Sure, I've needed a better way of saying this for a while - thanks. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• Could re-order refs [49][48][53] at the end of the second para for tidiness.
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• I've added "added at" between Williams' comments.
  • Ideal Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "Four-time champion [Higgins]" and "two-time finalist [Stevens]" - those achievements are not included in the cited source.
  • Done some changes here. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "requiring foul shots" - maybe expand slightly to something like "requiring Stevens to make foul shots"
  • Reworded Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "The 2010 winner Neil Robertson" not verified by cited source.
  • It was in the later source, so I've moved. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "Both players made a break of 102 in frames 10 and 11, with four century breaks in a row" needs rewording.
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "averaged less than 14 seconds per shot" - add a bit of context, even though the article goes on to cover this being the quickest best-of-19. (Perhaps this is a source?)
  • I've added something (was kinda hoping Snooker Scene would do me a solid for this one. I've done my best, but not too happy with it) Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Second round

• "This was the first time since Stephen Hendry in 2012 that there was a maximum at the event." True, but consider rewording.
  • Reworded Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• Reword to remove duplication of "next two" in the sentence about the Higgins/Maflin match. It also appears in the following sentence. "next three" also appears in consecutive sentences. ("Next" is in the article quite a few times, maybe use some more synonyms?)
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "World number one" not verified by the cited source. Also, consider introducing this description earlier in the article.
  • Removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "Kyren Wilson received a bye through the first round" - add the reason (i.e. Hamilton's withdrawal, mentioned earlier)
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• Could re-order refs [94][93] for tidiness.
• Unable to verify " a record 28th consecutive appearance at the event" via "Live Snooker: World Championship". Snooker on Eurosport. 1 August 2020. 133 minutes in. Eurosport. Eurosport 1 HD" as it's unavailable. Is there a more accessible source? (I expected to find one easily, but didn't.)
  • No. And I know it's one of those things that O'Sullivan fans think is super important (I tried to remove it). I also thought it would be easy to cite (hoping again for Snooker Scene to the rescue). Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
    • OK, AGF for this. (this confirms 28th, but not that it was a record.). BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• CGTN source is OK but see Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard#RFC:_China_Global_Television_Network - it may become deprecated.
  • I will replace as/when it is deprecated. I think there's some NPOV issues with the discussion. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "The pair were calmed..." - not sure about this, given the description in the source including the way McGill subsequently followed Clarke out of the arena.
  • Reworded. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:07, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Quarter-finals

• The source only talks about the Crucible curse going back to 1977, whereas I think the article rightly says that the "curse" extends back further. May need a further source. (And although off-topic for this review, Crucible curse may need an update).
  • The Crucible curse only applies to the Crucible. So, 1977. I've changed. Personally, I think it's a lot of media hullabaloo, but it's what people talk about. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
    • That's fine. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "most century breaks of any player this season", "just one short of Neil Robertson's record in 2013–14" - not supported by live version of the source, and the archive link redirects to the live version.
  • Added a ref. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• AGF on The Telegraph for 9 August. (Archive only shows the start of the article for me, may need a "registration" or "subscription" marker in the citation)
  • Tagged Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "would later consider that the comments were also aimed at himself" - that's not my reading of the source, what's this derived from?
  • Added a ref. There's a BBC article on exactly this, but I can't find it. Got a similar one though. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
    • That's fine. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "contested their first quarter-finals" - add something to say world championship or Crucible, as both have previously reached ranking tournament quarter finals.
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-finals

• "Kyren Wilson, who had reached this stage once before in 2018", "Anthony McGill who had not reached the semi-finals previously" - not supported by source cited.
  • Removed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "McGill made his first two century breaks of the tournament in the final session" - not supported by source cited.
  • Used cite from centuries. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• " despite there being a lot of kicks" - not sure if this is "despite", as the source comments that this affected both players.
  • Reworded Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• "O'Sullivan rasped his hand" - "rapped"?
  • Whoops. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Final

• "first-time finalist" - not supported by source cited.
  • Added cite Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:56, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Main draw

• Add wikilinks or tooltips for "w/o" and "w/d".
  • done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• Is livesnooker.com a reliable source?
  • Aside from being attached to bet365, I've never seen it be called unreliable. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
    • the link with bet365 adds to credibility IMO as the gambling is highly regulated in the UK. The information it's supporting is not controversial. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Qualifying

• Looks fine

Qualifying draw

• Looks fine

Century breaks

• Live version of the source for Qualifying stage centuries says there were 51 (not 53).
  • Changed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

External links

• Maybe add something like "..of World Snooker Tour"? Readers might otherwise expect this to go directly to a page specifically about the 2020 World Snooker Championship.
  • Done Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

Other

• "clearance" and "Steve Davis" have duplinks.
  • Fixed Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:41, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
• Images - logo use is fine as established at FA articles (e.g. 2018 World Snooker Championship). No issues found with the photos.
• There are recent reversions in the article history, but nothing that looks like a current edit war. (Having had another look at the page history since writing this, need to keep an eye on this. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:15, 28 August 2020 (UTC))
  • Yeah, looks like that's been resolved. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)

• BennyOnTheLoose, apologies for the delay, I've covered this Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 22:24, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
  • Thanks Lee Vilenski. I'm happy with all of the responses - one further question about Challenge Tour above, but it's not a blocker. A cite error relating to "wst._Wils" has crept in. I've now had a look at the lead (as I prefer to do this last) and there seem to be a few points there that aren't included in the body of the article and are unreferenced. (See above.) Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 23:17, 30 August 2020 (UTC)
    • All done BennyOnTheLoose. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 13:02, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
      • Thanks Lee Vilenski. I'm not seeing the support for "aged 45, he became the oldest player" (re Higgins' 147) in the cited source - or is it in the video on that page? That's the only pending issue. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 18:21, 31 August 2020 (UTC)
        • With the additional reference added, I'm happy to pass this for GA. Thanks and well done Lee Vilenski. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 22:56, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Rewording of Statement

Please reword the following statement

"Selby cleared until the final red, and a series of safety shots were played, with O'Sullivan playing controlled shots that he had previously not, and potted match ball after Selby failed to escape a snooker.[134]"

Mark Selby did not fail to escape from the snooker. He swerved round the black; hit the red; caught the far knuckle of the middle jaw and failed to leave the red safe. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 193.60.168.75 (talk) 05:27, 9 February 2021 (UTC)

Recent changes to the lede

Hi, recently the lede has been changed quite a bit specifically the order of the highest break, which we usually have as the last item, with (somewhat randomly) the winning/final of the event. See this response when asking the user to bold, revert, discuss, so I'll start a discussion here in its stead.

In my eyes, the winner of the event is significantly more notable than that of the highest break, so should precede it in the lede. Any thoughts appreciated Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 17:35, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Agree. The lead should have the most important information first. Completely wrong to retain a chronological order with the winner listed last. Nigej (talk) 20:04, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, too. The lede doesn't have to be purely chronological, as I presume the other editor(s) are aiming for. The importance of the summarized information is what counts. — JohnFromPinckney (talk) 20:40, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, those of us who have done a lot of work on the World Championship articles have established a consistent structure for the lead, where the last paragraph covers (1) what happened to the defending champion, (2) the winner of the event and who he beat in the final, and (3) highest break info. Presenting the information consistently in the lead is more important than presenting it chronologically which is just likely to confuse the reader. Rodney Baggins (talk) 09:18, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Just out of interest, the Lead paragraph wiki article mentions "grabbing the attention of the reader", "the most important, interesting or attention-grabbing elements", "emphasize the interesting points of the article"; nowhere does it say anything about presenting the information 'chronologically'. Rodney Baggins (talk) 09:24, 29 August 2020 (UTC)

Qualifying stage centuries

Please check the numbers and the source in 2020 World Snooker Championship#Qualifying stage centuries. I count 53 centuries in the list (it says 51 in the text) and the source is no good (neither is the archive). I thought I'd mention it now rather than saving it for the FA review. Cheers, Rodney Baggins (talk) 19:06, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

Does the World Snooker Tour website seriously not have a results archive?-- P-K3 (talk) 20:31, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

That is the official centuries list. It appears though, that the total is wrong. Best Wishes, Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 21:18, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

As Rodney says, we will need a different source, the archive link is not working. P-K3 (talk) 21:30, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

This archive is complete, it says 51 so there must be something wrong in our list. I'll check it through. Rodney Baggins (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

It's Thepchaiya Un-Nooh, will remedy!! Rodney Baggins (talk) 21:47, 10 September 2020 (UTC)

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