The previous Masters pages included a weather section for each day of the tournament. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Masters_Tournament#Weather Johnsmith2116 (talk) 13:19, 7 April 2022 (UTC)
Nomination for deletion of Template:Baltic Pipeline System-II full/docEdit
Template:Baltic Pipeline System-II full/doc has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the entry on the Templates for discussion page. WikiCleanerMan (talk) 20:13, 16 April 2022 (UTC)
ITN recognition for Jack NewtonEdit
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As you've probably seen, I recently created a page for Vic Bennetts. He won a number of "cup" events during his amateur career. Some examples are here and here. I wasn't sure whether they are worthy of inclusion in the "Amateur Wins" section. I'll definitely keep them in the prose but I'm not sure if they meet our standards otherwise. They may be along the level of schoolboys championships. If you have the time, please briefly let me know your thoughts.
- I don't know anything about these events, but my general view would be that 1 round event shouldn't be included. All pros won large numbers of amateur events in their early careers and our list of wins needs to concentrate on the most important. Nigej (talk) 05:16, 9 June 2022 (UTC)
Australian Men's Interstate Teams MatchesEdit
I am almost done harassing you about Vic Bennetts. On your Australian Men's Interstate Teams Matches page, under the Appearances section, I noticed that you only have Bennetts playing in the matches from 1963 to 1966. However, I have links stating he participated in the 1962 and 1967 events. In 1962 article, it says he was selected for the "junior" team. Perhaps that is a different category? For the 1967 article, however, it says he was selected for the "senior" team - not sure what was going on with that but maybe he just selected to drop out later on? Any help would be much appreciated.
- I think the 1962 event would be the boys event. https://assets.ctfassets.net/3urhge2ecl20/46s701KhgITgu4OPKI8rgE/8ab9a75f9b49d2f62f29df88592aab1d/HONOUR_ROLL_-_Australian_Junior_Interstate_Teams_Matches.pdf which seems to have started in 1958, but I don't know any details about this event. The 1967 mens interstate matches were held in September. The matches referred to in your link (in February) were, it seems, junior v senior practice matches and he wasn't selected for the interstate event: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/103562150/the-sydney-morning-herald/ Nigej (talk) 15:36, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- For Junior interstate see: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=D35WAAAAIBAJ&pg=3815%2C6027652 for 1962. Played in 1961 too: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=NFoVAAAAIBAJ&pg=4672%2C935897 but not in 1960 https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=V31WAAAAIBAJ&pg=6543%2C5996230 Also played in the junior event in 1963: https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=CYcTAAAAIBAJ&pg=4771%2C2146592 and 1964 https://news.google.com/newspapers?id=3fpjAAAAIBAJ&pg=1319%2C9130691 and 1965 https://www.newspapers.com/clip/103568041/the-sydney-morning-herald/ Nigej (talk) 17:21, 11 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thank you so much for your hard work. I have added all of the relevant information to his Team Appearances section. I noticed that there is a large overlap between his participation in the junior and senior events - just wondering but do you know why? I assumed they'd be mutually exclusive categories.
- I have also noted all of the team events he appeared in the Team Appearances section. I think this may be too promiscuous, however, as a number of these events seem quite small. (The senior interstate tournament is the only one I heard of before I started his page.) For the Amateur wins and Professional wins categories we have have decided not all victories are worthy of inclusion (i.e. pro-am wins, schoolboy championships). Likewise, do we have criteria established to determine whether certain team events are notable enough?
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 19:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- The junior level in Australia in his day was under-21, later changed to under-18. It did mean that useful juniors could play in both. Didn't seem to be anything to stop it. Similar thing happened in the UK. There used to be a "youth" level, under-23, but at some point all the top amateurs were youths, so The R&A abandoned the "youth" level to concentrate on the boys age group (roughly under-18). Makes more sense nowadays. Nigej (talk) 19:49, 12 June 2022 (UTC)
- Thanks for the clarification about the amateur categories. More importantly, do you known anything about notability criteria for the Team Appearances section?
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 23:02, 12 June 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
1963 Australian CupEdit
One last thing about Bennetts. I have this link where he and his partner tied for the lead at the Australian Cup at the end of regulation. In the link they say the teams were going to play an 18 hole playoff the next week on December 22. I have scoured the newspaper search engines and found nothing. In addition, I checked the December 23 edition of the Sydney Morning Herald on Google News Archive and found no reportage of this event. (I also checked the Age and found nothing.) Not sure if you know anything of this alleged playoff.
Hi there. FYI, I've been sandboxing the results and clipped many sources. See User:Wjemather/British PGA circuit#Northern Professional Championship. wjematherplease leave a message... 16:52, 28 June 2022 (UTC) .
- Yes, needs sorting out. Not always clear which events were Leeds Cup too. See: https://nitter.net/pic/orig/media%2FEJVy7udW4AE8LC-.jpg which has the honours board for the Leeds Cup. Some years missing 1950s to 1970s but I'm not 100% convinced that these weren't held. Nigej (talk) 18:55, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- @Wjemather: I'm still not 100% clear about the 1963 and 1964 Leeds Cup situation. The honours board has 1963 missing and Caygill winning it 1964. Most plausibly this was his win (which you found before) in the "new 36-hole tournament" at Manchester Golf Club (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104690366/the-guardian/) which Caygill did win (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104630292/the-guardian/). This was a new venture (involving some amateurs) and ran from 1964 to 1969 and sources are clear that from 1965 onwards the winner did receive the Leeds Cup. We also know from this https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104688724/the-guardian/ that when the 1965 event was held Caygill was "the holder of the Leeds Cup", although annoyingly it doesn't actually say that he won it for his 1964 win in the same event. Confusingly this: https://www.newspapers.com/clip/104636864/the-guardian/ from 1970 says that Muscroft "had previously won the trophy in 1962 and 1964", a statement that's difficult to square with what I've said above, and presumably relates to his NPC win in 1964. How Muscroft could have won the Leeds Cup in 1964 but Caygill be "the holder of the Leeds Cup" when it was contested in 1965 isn't clear. Nigej (talk) 14:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- I came across this which suggests the 1963 NPC (Caygill won) carried the Leeds Cup, but nothing to substantiate that. I'll look again when I have a bit of time. wjematherplease leave a message... 14:50, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
- As for the NPC, I just have a couple of gaps to fill: 1977, 1983 and 1984 wjematherplease leave a message... 14:53, 30 June 2022 (UTC)
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Shennecossett Golf CourseEdit
I have spent the past few days adding a lot of information to the Shennecossett Golf Course page. I have noticed that the newspapers often refer to "Shennecossett Country Club" in my research rather than "Shennecossett Golf Course." They are probably referring to the same place and are simply making a little mistake. However, I wanted to consult with you before making more edits.
My misgivings basically revolve around the Connecticut Open (1910s event). (As full disclosure, I created that page.) In the course of my research for Shennecossett I noticed no mention of this early century Connecticut Open. For example, on the club's website, despite a comprehensive history section, there is nothing. In addition, in my research for the 1910s Connecticut Open they usually refer to "Shennecossett Country Club." Basically, I'm not sure if Shennecossett Golf Course and Shennecossett Country Club are different clubs. Any help would be much appreciated.
- They do seem to be the same club, as far as I can see. I suspect that it was called a country club until being taken over by the town. One of the scorecards here https://www.groton-ct.gov/departments/parksrec/shenny/historical_scorecard_gallery.php/#prettyPhoto says country club and has the title "circa late 1960s". Nigej (talk) 06:55, 22 July 2022 (UTC)
Nomination of List of Great Britain and Ireland PGA Cup golfers for deletionEdit
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A Rhodesian golfer named Ted Webber won the South African Amateur Championship (golf) in 1977 and 1978. I suspect this is the same person as Teddy Webber who finished runner-up at the 1986 South African PGA Championship. If so we should keep the names consistent and probably the flags. Do you know if this is the same guy?
- Must be the same person.Teddy seems much more common, eg https://www.europeantour.com/players/teddy-webber-987/career-record?tour=dpworld-tour Played for Rhodesia as an amateur and seems to have genuinely been from there. Despite the flag on the ET website he competed as a Zimbabwean from 1986 to 1988. Not sure why he's got a South African flag. Probably all mixed up with the politics of the time. In the apartheid days it was sometimes easier to be a Rhodesian/Zimbabwean (but sometimes not) but later sometimes it became easier to be a South African. "Majors of Golf" has "Edward Arthur Webber" (played in the Open 1986, 1987, 1988, missed cut each time) as his full name which fits with http://rhodesiansportprofiles.blogspot.com/2012/11/edward-arthur-webber.html Nigej (talk) 05:50, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
- See also http://teddywebber.com/ which says he won 4 times in South Africa. Nigej (talk) 06:45, 28 July 2022 (UTC)
question about flags of Rhodesia/ZimbabweEdit
For Mark McNulty's win at the 1980 Malaysian Open there is this blue-ish flag with a the Union Jack in the corner. This flag also exist on the 1980 Asia Golf Circuit page. This appears to be similar to Rhodesia's national flag from 1964-68 (see Flags of Rhodesia). But clearly the dates don't match. (Meanwhile, under Flags of Zimbabwe they note the 1960s Rhodesian flag on the page but that's it.) I think it should probably change.
- I would think common sense would indicate that we use the flag of Zimbabwe here, enough though it only became Zimbabwe in April 1980. Using the Union Jack, per List of Rhodesian flags is surely just confusing. Nigej (talk) 12:56, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
- If we are going to use the flag of the time, surely the UK one is correct (or possibly Zimbabwe Rhodesia, as that continued to be used unofficially), not that of Zimbabwe (or Rhodesia). I have updated it in the articles accordingly (i.e. UK). Any confusion is due to our use of flagicons without text, which has been touched on many times, but never addressed properly. wjematherplease leave a message... 15:03, 29 July 2022 (UTC)
Question about sectionsEdit
I have some questions about the sections we use in the text. Firstly, I have a question about the Early life section. Before I used to include very early life stuff like where the golfer was born, family info, and some very early golf anecdotes. But lately I've been enfolding all high school stuff under Early life rather than including it under the Amateur career section. I usually begin the Amateur career section when the subject goes to college (or around the age of 18 if he doesn't). What are your thoughts?
In addition, I am almost done with the page of Jerry Stolhand and have some questions about how I should organize the page. Stolhand had an unusual career arc where he turned professional, then had his amateur career status re-instated, but then turned professional a second time. I've heard of a number of golfers that have regained their amateur status but none where the golfer turned pro again. I created an independent section for each era of Stolhand's career but wasn't sure if that was the way it should be done. Any help would be much appreciated.
- I don't think we need to be too worried about the sections, it will be different for each biography. See Help:Section but I'm not sure its much help. Allen John comes to mind as someone who's turned professional twice, but it is unusual. Nigej (talk) 08:21, 9 September 2022 (UTC)
- I just went through the advice page you sent me pertaining to Sections. Thank you but likewise I didn't find it very helpful; it seemed to focus mainly on technical stuff, not content. I think I'll just keep Stolhand's page organized the way it is.
- One last thing... Could we create a separate line on the infobox for those that regained amateur status? On the page of Allen John we have it noted but it's on the same line as "Turned professional." To me, it looks awkward and jumbled. In addition, for the rare player that turned pro a second time, it would be nice to have a separate line for that too.
- Oogglywoogly (talk) 15:44, 14 September 2022 (UTC)Oogglywoogly
- Ok, please think about it. I think it would be worthwhile and probably easy to do as relatively few guys have had their amateur status re-instated.
- Just to put it out there I will list all of the guys I know who have had their amateur status re-instated. They are Nathaniel Crosby, Sandy Galbraith, Steve Melnyk, Dillard Pruitt, and Bob Lewis (golfer). In addition, the professional golfers John Harris (golfer), Joe Stansberry, David Eger, Allen John, and Jerry Stolhand all had their amateur status re-instated but then turned pro a second time.
Bobby Jones' professional careerEdit
You have mentioned in passing that Bobby Jones turned pro sometime in his career. On his infobox, however, it is not noted. I have scoured the internet for this information but all I have is this website which says he turned pro sometime in the early 1930s. Do you have any more evidence stating when he turned pro? I think this is important as all you hear is the media is "the lifelong amateur Bobby Jones," "the greatest golfer never to turn pro," etc. but never anything about his professional career.
- Seems that even at the time of his retirement in November 1930 he regarded his proposed future actions (like making a film) as against his amateur status: https://www.newspapers.com/image/legacy/436712859/ See eg https://www.newspapers.com/image/legacy/398103434/ when Lawson Little turned professional in 1936.: "he has decided to give up his amateur status and go in, with Bobby Jones, for the professional and business side of golf". I dont think he ever played for prize money, but there's more to amateur status than that. Even now, giving a golf lesson for money means you lose your amateur status and become a professional. Nigej (talk) 06:04, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
- Worth noting that we have Charlie Yates as low amateur in 1934 at Masters Tournament#Low amateurs when he finished below Jones (297 to 294). https://www.newspapers.com/clip/109637715/the-atlanta-constitution/ Nigej (talk) 06:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)
Notability of winsEdit
I have one more thing about Jerry Stolhand. I have included just about every potentially notable event he won in his Amateur wins and Professional wins sections. However, some may be dubious. The most potentially dubious ones I have listed below.
- As a 15-year-old-boy he won his town's local Jaycee event. I included it earlier but now that I think about it it probably isn't notable. In addition, he won a similar event in 1953. What do you think about these events?
- In 1956, he won a professional-assistant tournament in Wichita, Kansas. I know we don't include pro-ams but maybe these pro-assistant events are big enough? This type of event includes two professionals whereas the pro-ams only have one.
- In 1966, he won the "championship flight" of the Barber's Point Open. (The "championship flight" appears to be the title for the "amateur division" back then.) But he didn't win the tournament overall against the pros. He won a lot of these "championship flights." I think these amateur victories should definitely be mentioned in the prose but maybe not in the Wins sections.
- In 1965 and 1968, Stolhand won the Kaneohe Bay Youth Activities Association tournaments. This looks to be a charity benefit event. Not sure what our rules are about including events like this in the Wins sections.
Any advice would be much appreciated. Thanks,
- Not sure I can give any useful advice. Probably I wouldn't have included any of them. Nigej (talk) 05:14, 18 September 2022 (UTC)
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