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Talk:2011 England riots/Archive 13

< Talk:2011 England riots
Latest comment: 3 years ago by Cosnahang in topic Verb tenses & British grammar
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Singh inquiry

Latest comment: 11 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Added to External Links. Haven't read it but it's surely an important secondary(?) source, whether more or less biased than other sources. WykiP (talk) 18:58, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 1

Latest comment: 10 years ago14 comments7 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. I do find consensus for a move to 2011 British riots, however, I'm unwilling to make the move in the article's present state. Any user may feel free to add information on the riots outside England and then make that move himself or herself. --BDD (talk) 18:35, 15 July 2013 (UTC)

2011 England riots → 2011 English riots – The adjective of "England" is "English". Unless a geographical name doesn't have an adjective ("United States", "United Kingdom", etc.) or it's not common practice to use any adjective (subdivisions of a country, cities, etc.), it would be better to use it ("Tunisian revolution", not "Tunisia revolution"; "2011 Egyptian revolution", not "2011 Egypt revolution"; "Libyan civil war", not "Libya civil war"; etc.). Article editor (talk) 20:01, 6 July 2013 (UTC)

"BlackBerry riots" seems narrow, focusing on one particular aspect played up in media coverage. "Mark Duggan riots" would be a little more natural, since the Mark Duggan killing and subsequent peaceful demonstrations were the clear origin of the larger phenomenon. Both names appear but neither is as widely used as the simpler "[name of place (in noun or adjectival form)] riots" formula. groupuscule (talk) 13:18, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
There were riots concerning the English language in 2011, and concerning ethnic English people in non-native places as well. If you want the adjectival form, it'd be "British" -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 23:02, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support. 2011 England riots isn't 100% precise either. Red Slash 08:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Observations:
  1. names used in the press vary widely;
  2. people in both Scotland and Wales were arrested and charged with incitement;
  3. "incidents" in Wales; involvement of Welsh police; and
  4. some insistence that the riots did not involve Scotland,
Maybe these were British riots? groupuscule (talk) 13:12, 7 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose - rioters included Scottish Welsh and Irish residents of English cities. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:12, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose and suggestion How about we renamed this article 2011 United Kingdom riots? or 2011 British riots etc? ☠ Jaguar ☠ 15:46, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Although it wasn't initially in the scope of the proposal, I would support a move to 2011 British riots if the event included Scotland or 2011 United Kingdom riots if it included Northern Ireland. --Article editor (talk) 20:41, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
    Yes, it definitely included Northern Ireland. England is not clear enough as it was nationwide, maybe we should rename this article after all. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 21:40, 9 July 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Requested move 2

Latest comment: 10 years ago6 comments5 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Rename. Timrollpickering (talk) 11:53, 24 July 2013 (UTC)


2011 England riots → 2011 United Kingdom riots – As discussed before, people found it in favour to move this page to 2011 United Kingdom riots or 2011 British riots. The current title is already misleading as it is because the riots did not just happen in England itself - it was nationwide (Northern Ireland, Scotland, etc). The '2011 United Kingdom riots' give a better name to it as the whole country was affected, and not just England. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 15:12, 16 July 2013 (UTC)

You state that rioting occurred in Scotland and Northern Ireland. From what I recall, there was little evidence of this when the article was first created. Can you cite a few sources for this - and with regard to Northern Ireland in particular, can you confirm that sources state that any rioting occurred there was linked to the English riots, rather than being 'troubles' related? AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:52, 16 July 2013 (UTC)
Oh yes, rioting definitely happened outside of England. You got to bear in mind that at the time the press was being strictly controlled so that only 'snippets' of the riots were being broadcast on air (in my guess it was an attempt to stop other people from getting the idea and rioting elsewhere). This source states that rioting occurred of the same time (August) as the riots in London etc were happening in Londonderry and Belfast. Even though I can't find anything on Scotland (like here), things would have definitely happened without anyone other than people who saw it themselves knowing. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 17:53, 17 July 2013 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

United Kingdom riots?

Latest comment: 10 years ago28 comments5 people in discussion

Hi, is this title not factually incorrect? The rioting wasn't nationwide, so far as I know, but was confined to England. Does anyone have a reliable source showing rioting outside England, as part of the same series of events? SlimVirgin (talk) 02:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Wasn't this asked and answered twice in the above entries?Wzrd1 (talk) 02:29, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
Answered? Yes. Answered propely? No. The source that Jaguar cites above clearly states that "In Belfast, Northern Ireland sectarian violence flared up over the weekend". Sectarian riots - no evidence that they were related to what was going on in England. Not that a blog for a bulletproof-vest salesman is WP:RS anyway. Basically, the move has been made based on a poor source, and, regarding Scotland, a conspiracy theory: "things would have definitely happened without anyone other than people who saw it themselves knowing". As I recall, this was all discussed at the time of the riots, and there was no real evidence that anything happened outside England except a rowdy night in Cardiff (hardly unusual), a Scot or two posting tweets that achieved nothing except getting them locked up for (failed) incitement, and sectarian business as usual in Northern Ireland. The move has been made on the basis of entirely unjustifiable claims, and should probably be reverted. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:33, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
(ec) Someone linked to violence in Northern Ireland, but there was no indication that it was connected to this, and the source was not an RS. I've never read of rioting taking place outside England during those particular events, so if the article or title is going to claim this, we need some reliable sources. SlimVirgin (talk) 02:36, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
How was consensus achieved twice previously, but now seems in question? It just seems a bit strange, though I wasn't party to the first two discussions. That said, I have to agree that one reference provided in that discussion is a rather questionable source, indeed, the article had loads of video from two years prior to the riots. What I recall was seeing reports about Tweets being made to incite people to join in across the UK, but had a dearth of information on any attendance, as the UK was outside of our AOR.Wzrd1 (talk) 02:45, 25 July 2013 (UTC)
The first RM was closed as no consensus. The second one actually only contains 2 unequivocal 'supports' - and Jaguar's seems to be based on his own unverifiable assertions, rather than on anything relevant to the article. We are now stuck with an article on 'UK riots' that we can only source to England. AndyTheGrump (talk) 03:30, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, but the BBC reported in two stories that rioting took place outside of London from day three through day five. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-hampshire-14473058 and http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-10321233 or is the BBC suddenly not a WP:RS? That said, there should be other sources coverage of the additional locations, rather than only two from the same news organization to support the article.Wzrd1 (talk) 11:10, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

What? Nobody is disputing that riots took place outside London. The issue is whether there were riots outside England. So far, all we have is apparently unrelated rioting in Northern Ireland. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:59, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

The rioting definitely happened outside of London, and I only suspected that at the time of the rioting the press kept tight control of what they broadcast. I know we don't have any veritable sources to back this up, but even if we didn't I thought that the 'United Kingdom riots' or the 'British riots' would give this article a broader view than simply England riots. In the mean time I'm going to find some good sources. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 15:55, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Do that. Article titles aren't based on 'suspicions'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 14:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The Guardian have a page where they claim to map every verified incident [1]. Looking at the map there are two incidents in Cardiff, one an attempted burglary of a sports shop and one criminal damage to a suburban takeaway. The links to their source on the South Wales Police website are dead (I haven't tried the wayback machine), so I can't verify if the police reckoned they were linked to the rioting or not - the attempted burglary would fit the pattern of elsewhere but I'm doubtful about the criminal damage - I have no evidence either way though. The dataset includes no other incidents outside England.
    How reliable is the map overall though? Well data placement is a bit off (the burnt out police car in Woolwich was outside the DLR station, not on a disused barge moored in the Thames for example) but it does include all the incidents in Woolwich that I am aware of and the riots here were very under-reported at the time. Thryduulf (talk) 17:25, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The National Centre for Social Research prepared a report for the Cabinet Office entitled The August riots in England. It only mentions some of the events that happened in England (e.g. no mention of Croydon or Woolwich). Thryduulf (talk) 17:35, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
The study seems to be aimed at analysing events and motivations at particular locations, rather than in giving an overview of the rioting. I don't think it is likely to be of much use regarding statements as to whether riots occurred elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 17:44, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The Interim Report by the Riots, Communities and Victims Panel, begins its introduction with "Following the riots that occurred in towns and cities across England between 6 and 10 August 2011, the Prime Minister, Deputy Prime Minister and Leader of the Official Opposition established the Riots Communities and Victims Panel" (PDF Page 6). The map on PDF page 22 of that document shows no reports outside England, on the following page is a chart of the number of crimes reported in "each local authority area for the 31 areas, where 40 or more crimes were committed." All 31 are in England. There are no uses of the words "Cardiff", "Wales" or "Ireland" in the document. There are two uses of the word "Scotland", one as part of "Scotland Yard" the other a mention that police from Scotland assisted colleagues in London. Thryduulf (talk) 17:56, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
  • The BBC's Map and timeline shows no events outside England. Thryduulf (talk) 17:57, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Interesting. I just had a look at that map from the Gaurdian, there were a few in Wales but none whatsoever in Scotland, which is rare. We have a few sources that state rioting in Northern Ireland in the same week but still nothing on Scotland!! Sorry if I'm repeating myself, but I'm going to stick with my "we don't know what else had really happened" explanation. I remember when the riots were happening in August 2011 I personally saw it happen in some parts of Basingstoke, yet nothing on the internet I can find any sources to back that up. 'United Kingdom' riots just gives this article a broader view. ☠ Jaguar ☠ 17:58, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Please read WP:V. Wikipedia is based on verifiability, not personal recollections that you are unable to verify. It is not up to us to give something a "broader view" than what is based in sources, to do otherwise would be original research. I can find no reliable source that connects the sectarian disturbances in Northern Ireland to the non-sectarian poverty and deprivation-related rioting in England. The exactly two (not "a few") incidents in Cardiff that are mentioned by the Guardian are not verified by any other source. Thryduulf (talk) 18:12, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
The 'Interim Report', linked by Thryduulf, in asking whether this was "An English problem?", says "We are interested in views on why these disturbances didn’t take place in other parts of the UK" (p. 57) Evidently the authors of the report didn't see any evidence of riots elsewhere. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:13, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
This Guardian article explains the differences between the riots in England and the riots in Northern Ireland that were not even contemporary. Thryduulf (talk) 18:17, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
There were only isolated minor incidents in Cardiff according to the police, who evidently did not regard it as rioting, and neither does any other reliable source. Thryduulf (talk) 18:22, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
The Open University considered the question "Why were there no riots in Scotland and Wales?" worthy of academic discussion. They wouldn't do if there had been verifiable rioting in either Scotland or Wales. Thryduulf (talk) 18:27, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Per the BBC article and graphic, I saw nothing in Scotland, Wales or Ireland mentioned as well, so it would be England and not the United Kingdom (as the latter suggests events that seem ill or not supported by any RS having riots). Though, it could be considered sort of nationwide, but not kingdom wide, what documentation I've found and what's been discussed here all show the riots being in England and possibly coincidental disturbances in other areas notorious for disturbances anyway. So, what should the correct title be? 2011 England riots? 2011 English riots? I'm also wondering if brief mention might be worthy on the academic discussion on why there were no verifiable riots in either Scotland and Wales.Wzrd1 (talk) 19:31, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
Looking at the names of articles about other riots, there is a mix of "Year Country-name riots" and "Year Country-adjective riots" with the latter being very roughly twice as common (at least for 21st Century riots, I've not looked earlier than that), which would suggest "2011 English riots". However, riots about riots in England are almost entirely at "Year England riots" (e.g. 2001 England riots) as are Category:2011 England riots and Timeline of the 2011 England riots), so precedent could go either way. Ghits need to be treated with caution, but here are the figures and again it's a mixed bag:
Search "2001 England riots" -Wikipedia "2011 English riots" -Wikipedia
Web hits 140,000 41,300
Books hits 36 104
Blogs hits 26,100 316
Scholar hits 46 77
Personally I prefer "2011 England riots" because the defining feature was riots were in England not that the rioters were English, but none of the precedents or source searches provide a definitive answer either way. Thryduulf (talk) 21:08, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Jaguar, the unrest in Northern Ireland had nothing to do with these riots. Looking at Google Books and JSTOR:

  • Simone X. Zhang, "Constructing the Riots: Interpretations and Consequences of the 2011 England Riots," Havard University, 2012 (paper).
  • M. J. Maher, "Society without Therapy: The England Riots of 2011," Racism and Cultural Diversity, Karnac Books, 2011.
  • Daniel Briggs, The English Riots of 2011: A Summer of Discontent, Waterside Press, 2012.
  • Liz Kelly and Aisha K. Gill, "Reading the Riots Through Gender: A Feminist Reflection on England's 2011 Riots," in the above.
  • Simon Winlow and Steve Hall, "Inarticulate Politics in the English Riots of 2011," in the above.
  • Daniel Briggs, "Frustrations, Urban Relations and Temptations: Contextualizing the English Riots," in the above.
  • Richard Phillips, Diane Frost and Alex Singleton, "Researching the Riots", The Geographical Journal, Vol. 179, No. 1, March 2013:
"There has been much speculation about the causes and meanings of the riots that swept through English cities in August 2011...

"These disturbances began on 6 August following the police shooting of Mark Duggan, a black resident of Tottenham, North London. Over the following days, they spread within London and to other English cities. ...

"There were no riots in English cities such as Sheffield and Newcastle, and the streets of Welsh and Scottish cities remained equally calm."

There are also numerous references within books that refer to the England riots. SlimVirgin (talk) 21:45, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

The sources, including academic sources, are clear that the rioting was confined to England, so I've asked Tim if he will undo his move. SlimVirgin (talk) 22:33, 26 July 2013 (UTC)
This also begs the question if there should be a section in the article discussing the various factors that resulted in the rioting being confined to England. Things like social differences, perception, different practices in use, etc in Scotland, Wales and Ireland. Such isn't well understood outside of Commonwealth nations, in particular in the US.Wzrd1 (talk) 17:46, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
Only if it can be directly sourced. From what I've seen, there doesn't seem to be much in the way of an explanation offered. AndyTheGrump (talk) 18:18, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Of course we'd need citations, the idea being if there is a consensus in the available literature that explains it. I'm hoping some of our peers are available of any such writings and could help out.Wzrd1 (talk) 20:08, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

Requested move 3

Latest comment: 10 years ago7 comments6 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: move back. -- tariqabjotu 02:04, 3 August 2013 (UTC)

2011 United Kingdom riots → 2011 England riots – Until a couple of days ago, this article was called 2011 England riots. It is one of a series of articles about rioting in England since the 12th century, listed in Template:Riots in England, including 1981 England riots, 2001 England riots, and 2011 England riots.

The recent move to 2011 United Kingdom riots was based on very little input, minimal consensus, and it contradicts the facts and the reliable sources, including the academic sources. All agree that the rioting was confined to towns and cities in England, and did not become nationwide. SlimVirgin (talk) 00:32, 27 July 2013 (UTC)

  • Support. Some academic and news sources:
  • Richard Phillips, Diane Frost and Alex Singleton, "Researching the Riots", The Geographical Journal, Vol. 179, No. 1, March 2013:
"There has been much speculation about the causes and meanings of the riots that swept through English cities in August 2011... These disturbances began on 6 August following the police shooting of Mark Duggan, a black resident of Tottenham, North London. Over the following days, they spread within London and to other English cities. ... There were no riots in English cities such as Sheffield and Newcastle, and the streets of Welsh and Scottish cities remained equally calm."
  • Support. We now have evidence from multiple reliable sources that the rioting was confined to England. 'England riots' appears to be preferred to 'English riots' by the majority of sources. 01:23, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Comment I would oppose any attempt to use "2011 English riots". Whether this article be at "UK", "England" or "British", any of those three is fine by me. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 04:19, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support per SlimVirgin and my comments in the previous section. Thryduulf (talk) 13:51, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support per the various sources mentioned above and in the previous section establishing riots in various places outside of London, but confined to England and a lack of rioting in Scotland and Ireland that can be attributed to the original London rioting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wzrd1 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 27 July 2013
  • Support Even though I thought United Kingdom riots would give this article a broader view, it doesn't matter as there is no WP:V nor decent sources that supports riots took place outside England. Haha, I just remembered when I first created this article it was called 'Tottenham riots'! ☠ Jaguar ☠ 20:26, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Support there might have been a few lads rioting outside a pub in Swansea, but that had nothing to do with the riots affecting England, as the Swansea occuarance happens every Friday. Agathoclea (talk) 22:38, 27 July 2013 (UTC)
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Move? (4)

Latest comment: 10 years ago7 comments5 people in discussion
The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa (talk) 12:34, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

  • "England riots" is a series of two nouns; it should use an adjective. Article editor (talk) 18:45, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • This article has been the subject of multiple RMs, and this specific move was rejected in July... when you proposed it! Whack! Moves of this page should be treated as potentially controversial. --BDD (talk) 19:02, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
Note: The above comment was added to contest this as an uncontroversial technical request. --BDD (talk) 23:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose. Most of the sources use England riots, and this article is part of a series: Template:Riots in England, 1981 England riots, 2001 England riots, and 2011 England riots. As BDD points out, Article editor made this same proposal in July (here). SlimVirgin (talk) 21:39, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • I take no position on the move, but I note that either form is grammatically correct. "England riots" are riots which occur(red) in England. "English riots" can mean the same, or can refer to riots which are English in character (e.g., riots of English people, riots associated with or conducted in the English language). And whatever you make of these semantics, there's nothing wrong with using a noun as an adjective. Compare to, for example, England national football team. --BDD (talk) 23:00, 24 September 2013 (UTC)
  • Oppose this article is not concerned with the various riots concerning the English-language in 2011, nor by "English"-people outside of Britain in 2011. And we've discussed this many times before. -- 65.92.181.39 (talk) 03:06, 25 September 2013 (UTC)
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Chingford

Latest comment: 10 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

Hi. I visited recently and noticed that a reference to riots in Chingford had been removed. Curious, I did some online research to find out what happened there, and came across the following:

A local newspaper article talking of a 'riot-hit shop' in Chingford A link to a Sky News clip refering to looters, and showing looters running over police officers An article from the Daily Telegraph referring to the spread of riots & looting to Chingford A contemporary blog post talking of various shops in Chingford being lootedLocal newspaper report of looting on Chingford Station road

The original paragraph referring to Chingford says "The morning of 8 August was quiet, but by evening areas across London were affected by widespread looting, arson and violence, with significant outbreaks in parts of Battersea, Brixton, Bromley, Camden, Chingford Mount, Croydon, Ealing, East Ham, Hackney, Harrow, Lewisham, Peckham, Stratford, Waltham Forest, Woolwich, and Woodgreen."

Based on the above news links, it seems to reasonable to say there was looting and violence in Chingford, and that the reference should remain. This was beginning to turn into an edit war, so I'll leave it for now and will leave it up to others to comment and decide whether the reference to Chingford is fair. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sw4geoff (talk • contribs) 18:26, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Intro organization

Latest comment: 9 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

The third paragraph of the intro says "Along with the five deaths..." but no deaths were mentioned before. AxelBoldt (talk) 04:41, 5 March 2015 (UTC)

External links modified

Latest comment: 8 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

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Army

Latest comment: 4 years ago2 comments2 people in discussion

The police said they were unable to deal with the riots effectively due to having too few officers who were trained to do so. Has there been any explanation as to why the army weren't sent in to make arrests and stop the rioting? Jim Michael (talk) 15:53, 28 September 2019 (UTC)

That's mainly because in the UK, for something like that to happen you'd need an armed inssurrection, not rioting. Deployment of the military for domestic matters in the UK is considered a really bad idea, mainly due to experience in The Troubles--NVDELHm (talk) 10:54, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

Inquest verdict

Latest comment: 3 years ago1 comment1 person in discussion

@AmSam13: Please explain how a factual statement about the outcome of a legal case is not neutral. Sweet6970 (talk) 10:20, 9 June 2020 (UTC)

Verb tenses & British grammar

Latest comment: 3 years ago5 comments2 people in discussion

Does anyone object to me updating this to be in the true past tense is -> was etc?? Cosnahang (talk) 19:52, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

I'm not clear exactly what changes you are proposing, but I certainly prefer the past tense to the 'historic present' tense. Sweet6970 (talk) 21:43, 10 January 2021 (UTC)
Done - please review Cosnahang (talk) 22:05, 14 January 2021 (UTC)
Thanks - that's a big improvement. I have corrected a couple of typos. Sweet6970 (talk) 09:57, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
Pleasure to work with you Cosnahang (talk) 17:37, 15 January 2021 (UTC)
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