Talk:Óglaigh na hÉireann

Sound file for pronunciation

A sound file with the pronunciation would be nice to have here. I could not find a template à la reqsound or reqpronounciation, so I'm just putting the request here. Cat Parade 20:30, 31 March 2006 (UTC)

Done. --Kwekubo 00:07, 1 April 2006 (UTC)

FF

If the FF on the cap badge is Fianna Fáil then the article should note this as an earlier name. 15:09, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

That's not really the case, Fianna Fáil in this context is a description rather than a name. It literally means Soldiers of Ireland. Such a description would go at Irish Defence Forces or Irish Defence Forces cap badge anyway; this article is strictly about the term Óglaigh na hÉireann. --Kwekubo 23:29, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

I am putting a mention of Fianna Fáil into the image only. Scolaire 12:45, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation

Crud. I just removed the {{disambig}} transclusion, along with the associated comment, and I was quite rude in my comment to Mikkalai. I apologize for that; it was completely uncalled for. The point I was trying to make was that this page is not a disambiguation page. It may have started off as such, but is now a full article. A disambiguation page is extremely streamlined; its sole purpose is to get a reader to the topic they wish to read about as efficiently as possible. This article, on the other hand, has evolved into a standard article about the Irish title “Óglaigh na hÉireann” and how that term has been captured by many different groups.

Once again, I apologize for the rude edit summary in my most recent edit. — DLJessup (talk) 21:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Translation of "Óglaigh na hÉireann"

The correct translation of Óglaigh na hÉireann is not "Volunteers of Ireland" but "The Irish Volunteers". Firstly, the word na is the definite article the and is applied to the preceding word, Óglaigh, not the following word. Secondly, na hÉireann translates as Irish in the sense of "belonging to Ireland" or "representing Ireland". The alternative word Éireannach translates as Irish only in the sense of "coming from Ireland". So, for instance, Bertie Ahern would be polaiteoir Éireannach (an Irish politician) but the Irish Government is Rialtas na hÉireann. The difference is in the use of the definite or indefinite article. Óglaigh na hÉireann could theoretically be translated as The Volunteers of Ireland (as opposed to just Volunteers of Ireland), but since the name was chosen in the first place as the Irish translation of The Irish Volunteers this is the translation that should and must be used. Scolaire 11:35, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Some point:

• Óglach does not mean volunteer; as stated, "warrior" is a better literal translation.
• The difference between "Rialtas na hÉireann" and "an Rialtas Éireannach" is one of idiom; both involve a definite article. It is true that "X of Y" occurs in Irish in some contexts where "Yish X" would be used in English; it is also true that "X of Y" occurs in Irish in some contexts where "X of Y" would be used in English.
• Since Óglaigh na hÉireann is the Irish rendering of an originally English name, the question is moot. The assertion currently in the article is that a certain rendering is "traditional": that assertion may or may not be correct, but that does not depend on whether the traditional rendering is accurate or not.
• I suspect we both agree that far fewer people would say "(the) Volunteers of Ireland" than would say "(the) Irish Volunteers"; i.e. the assertion traditionally translated as "Volunteers of Ireland" is incorrect.

jnestorius^(talk) 14:07, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Agree that warrior is a more correct translation. I was only concerning myself with the volunteer translation. Thanks for the clarification of the other matters. On the basis of what you've said, I'm changing the text in the article. Scolaire 14:24, 15 September 2007 (UTC)

Óglaigh means volunteers (see a dictionary). The Irish-language name of the IDF is named after the Irish Volunteers (the the "-ish" translations is better than the "of" translation). The phrase is rather an idiom rather than an literal meaning, but in that idiom it does mean soldiers of Ireland here or Richard English, 2003, Armed struggle: the history of the IRA, Oxford University Press: Oxford). --rannṗáirtí anaiṫnid (coṁrá) 20:10, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Óglaigh na hÉireann.jpg

Image:Óglaigh na hÉireann.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 04:59, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I would like to joine DAVID www (talk) 12:05, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Recent edit

In general, this edit has made the article a good deal tidier than before. However, there are a few points I'd like to make:

1. The hatnote is necessary, especially at the moment when the republican group is in the news. Readers will type "Óglaigh na hÉireann" looking for information about the group. I'm restoring that at once because it's important.
2. The image is of a single cap badge: the badge of the Defence Forces. The caption should not say that it is a "Cap badge of the Irish Volunteers, and later of the Irish Defence Forces." It is linked to the Irish Defence Forces cap badge article anyway, for anybody interested in the history of the badge.
3. Still on the caption: Fianna Fáil does not translate literally as 'warriors of Ireland'. Fianna does not have a literal translation; it is a name for "small, semi-independent warrior bands who lived apart from society in the forests as mercenaries, bandits and hunters". Fál is a mythical land, whose name is sometimes used symbolically for Ireland. Neither does Óglaigh na hÉireann translate literally as 'warriors of Ireland'. Óglach, as a literary term, translates as "young man" or "young warrior"; as a military term it translates as "volunteer".
4. The IRA did not "succeed" the Irish Volunteers; the name of the Volunteers simply changed over time. The previous version, while less clear, was more accurate.
5. "Unilaterally-declared" is an archaic term, and also introduces a POV into the sentence. There should be a more neutral and more everyday way of saying the same thing.

On a procedural note, it would be preferable if formatting changes – especially the addition or removal of paragraph breaks – and content changes were made in separate edits. When the two are done together, as they were here, it takes a lot of work to see what textual changes have been made. Scolaire (talk) 06:50, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

I have re-worded both the image caption and the Volunteers/IRA/National Army paragraph. I think the latter is more faithful to the Defence Forces web page that it cites. Scolaire (talk) 08:07, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

Willie O'Dea

I think it is long past time the Willie O'Dea paragraph was removed. In Ireland, ministers have considerable freedom to express personal views, both inside and outside the Dáil chamber. Willie is a colourful character and not shy about expressing opinions. But unless it is incorporated in a ministerial order, bill, white paper, party manifesto or similar document, it is not any more relevant than the view of an ordinary Joe Soap expressed on the letters page of a national or local newspaper. In the case of the Dáil question cited, O'Dea answered that it was "a matter for the Garda authorities in consultation with the law offices of the State to determine whether use of the title “Óglaigh na hÉireann” in the manner outlined by the Deputy [was] illegal." In the absence of any evidence that the Garda or law offices made any such determination, the view expressed is not noteworthy. Scolaire (talk) 18:15, 6 June 2010 (UTC)

External links modified

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It is important to get the ordering and section titles correct.

1. Origins

OK

2. National Army and Anti-Treaty Irish Republican Army

Change of title. First section OK - 1922: referenced already.

• NEW: "The Civil War then ensued between the pro-treaty Provisional Government and the anti-treaty Irish Republican Army (IRA) which culminated in the defeat of the latter in April 1923.

3. Defence Forces

• OLD: "Since 1924, Óglaigh na hÉireann has remained the official Irish-language title for the Defence Forces"

Incorrect as the name was used before and was in fact first legislated for in 1923. The correct sentence is:

• NEW: "Óglaigh na hÉireann has remained the official Irish-language title for the Defence Forces and this was initially formally legislated for in 1923".

And this is the reference: https://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1923/act/30/section/4/enacted/en/html.

4. Irish Republican Army

• OLD: "The name has also been used by several other paramilitary groups calling themselves the Irish Republican Army since 1920".

This is incorrect. Used by other paramilitary groupes since 1923 at the earliest. That is the year the Anti-Treaty IRA were defeated (30th April 1923) and they were effectively defunct.

The section covers others and the year should simply be removed here. The correct sentence is:

• NEW: "The name has also been used by several other paramilitary groups calling themselves the Irish Republican Army since".

The IRA's use pre-dates the Free State use. FDW777 (talk) 09:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Anti-Treaty IRA - included in section 2. 74 observer (talk) 10:01, 1 November 2021 (UTC)

Once again, the IRA's use pre-dates the Free State use. All uses of Óglaigh na hÉireann by any paramilitary group, including the anti-Treaty IRA, descend from that. FDW777 (talk) 15:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)