Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2018-04-26/Op-ed

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• Huh. I am minded to agree that enWikipedia has some issues with its coverage of the Wehrmacht. Our articles often seem to emphasize military performance and deemphasize war crimes when compared to deWikipedia pages, with adulatory adjectives "outstanding performance" or the like being common. Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 06:52, 26 April 2018 (UTC)
• Are there armies, commanders, campaigns, weapons etc which ENWP describes in detail and unfavorably? Jim.henderson (talk) 13:48, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

  Yes, indeed. But it isn't easy. As K.e.coffman points out, you need to know more than just the history; you need an understanding of the historiography in order to avoid the pitfalls of various national myths and narratives. For anyone interested in this sort of thing, my recommendation is a book called Frogs, Snails and Feminist Tales (1989, 2003), in which the author examined children's books written by well-meaning feminist authors, but their messages hilariously fail when they encounter the entrenched gender notions of children. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:34, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• K.e.coffman, having worked with you on Kurowski, and in view of my close association with the Bundeswehr in the early 70s, I turned my German WWII research towards a deeper interest in German WWII 'historical fiction'. I thought I would do a translation for en.Wiki for de:Bertold K. Jochimhttp another author for the Pabel pulp. As the German Wikipedia is not so concerned about references as we are, searching for sources I came across this October 1959 issue of Der Spiegel , a much earlier source than the ones being used in our en.Wiki articles, and even more critical of the hero-drivel. Worth reading. I didn't know that Der Landser sold up to 3mio copies of each issue. That was a sizable percentage of the post war population. I shared offices for years with supposedly denazified Wehrmacht NCOs and officers but I never saw one of those rags lying about. Perhaps they read them on the loo in the lunch break. OMG. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 13:58, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• @Kudpung: yes, thank you for your translations of Kurowski and Clean Wehrmacht. I found it surprising that an article on the myth of the 'clean' Wehrmacht did not exist on en.Wiki in 2016, while - at the same time - Field Marshal Erwin Rommel was described as a "humanitarian". And I would find it odd for any general, whose job is to wage war, to be described as such, irrespective of whether they were Allied or German. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:24, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

• For those who haven't heard of it, the "clean Waffen-SS" myth says that it was the Allgemeine SS which committed the atrocities and not the Waffen-SS (or presumably the SS-Totenkopfverbände or Sicherheitspolizei). But of course all the branches were involved in, well, everything. This myth came to wider public attention due to the Bitburg controversy in 1985. The "clean Wehrmacht" myth is similar; it says that the atrocities were committed by the SS, and not the Wehrmacht. In the article on Albert Kesselring, I purposefully highlighted one war crime each by the SS, Heer, Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe to avoid giving oxygen to the myth. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 22:34, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• An ideal of even-handedness, especially considering the article reached FA status here on English Wikipedia. MPS1992 (talk) 22:38, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

  Thank you! I wrote about my trials and tribulation in writing it here in this MILHIST 2011 Op-Ed. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 23:02, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• I think we all have a lot to learn from that honest and forthright account of the difficulties of presenting a historical account of terrible times. (I have fixed and expanded the link because I think it is important.) MPS1992 (talk) 23:33, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• @Hawkeye7: I was not going to ping you again, but since you've commented here, could you clarify your statement in the comments section of the Bugle' essay on the same topic. You wrote: Sometimes poor or outdated sources are all we have, so that is what he must use, presumably referring to primary sources as was clear from your follow-up: [1].

I responded with a request for a clarificationn and pointed to a MILHIST A-Class article, which, IMO, uses "poor" and "outdated" sources; see: Talk:Helmut Wick#Propaganda origins. I would appreciate hearing from a professional military historian on whether you believe the article should retain its A-Class / GA status. --K.e.coffman (talk) 22:31, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

That's not an opinion I give as a military historian, because it is not the subject area where I am the world expert. But our policy on Wikipedia is clear: reliable sources may be non-neutral. It's not enough to drive-by template the article based on your own opinion; you have to detail specific factual errors. On that basis, there is no issue with the German or English versions, and any passing editor is entitled to remove the template unless details are forthcoming on the talk page. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 12:38, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: I agree with your comment that "reliable sources may be non-neutral". This is discussed in WP:BIASED. It also mentions the bright line that needs to be passed for reliability first, i.e. "normal requirements for reliable sources, such as editorial control and a reputation for fact-checking".

With that in mind, I am curious as to how you made the determination that the source being used in the Wick article, Ringlstetter, Herbert (2005). Helmut Wick, An Illustrated Biography of the Luftwaffe Ace and Commander of Jagdgeschwader 2 During the Battle of Britain. Atglen, PA: Schiffer Publishing. ISBN 978-0-7643-2217-4., is a reliable source. Please help me understand. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:43, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

The publisher is a reputable publishing house, so that does not apply. If you find some factual errors, material can be removed under WP:FALSE, but you'll need a better source. More interesting is the German version, which is based on 1943 material. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:50, 30 April 2018 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: The RSN discussion being linked is about The Unofficial Guide to Transformers 1980s Through 1990s. Schiffer may reputable for hobbyist topics, such as Transformer collecting, but not for WW2 biography, for which it was actually criticised (see linked article). The source itself - written by an amateur military writer and based on what appears to be Luftwaffe propaganda and a non-existing diary - is highly questionable. I've already linked to that material, but I'll do it again: Talk:Helmut Wick#Propaganda origins. But well, okay. --K.e.coffman (talk) 01:06, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

I've been through this before too. I say: "That source has been questioned". Admin says: "Questioned? By whom?" I say: "Would 'Wikipedians on the talk pages' be an acceptable answer?" and admin says: "No, it would not." Hawkeye7 (discuss) 21:56, 3 May 2018 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: are you saying that editors should not be evaluating sources, i.e. as described in WP:IRS? If we go by your logic, then your opinion that the Ringlstetter source is reliable carries no weight either, since you are just one of the (...Wikipedians on the talk pages...). For context, could you link to the discussion with SandyGeorgia? K.e.coffman (talk) 01:12, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

The evaluation of sources under WP:IRS is rather different than what you're thinking of. Many Wikipedians would regard it as WP:OR to the criticise sources that a secondary source is based on. The publisher is reliable, and the challenge is just from a Wikipedian who has no sources to back their assertions up under WP:FALSE, so the source passes WP:IRS. Hawkeye7 (discuss) 03:22, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

@Hawkeye7: I've linked to Schiffer Publishing which contains a reliably-sourced criticism of the publisher when it comes to WW2 biography. I'll repeat it here: "...Schiffer provides a platform for authors who present an uncritical and ahistorical portrayal of the German war effort during the Soviet-German war of 1941–1945." You've so far presented your opinion that the publisher is reliable, backed only by an unrelated discussion at RSN, about The Unofficial Guide to Transformers 1980s Through 1990s.

In any case, re The evaluation of sources under WP:IRS is different (...) Many Wikipedians would regard it as WP:OR to the criticise sources that a secondary source is based on, I don't think that's quite right. Evaluation of sources is not WP:OR. I created a short essay on the topic: Wikipedia:When OR is OK. This was prompted by the discussions I had with a couple of editors, as discussed here: Evaluation of sources as OR?. The policy was modified accordingly: [2].

Also, could you link to the discussion with SandyGeorgia? They have pinged me on my Talk page about this. Thank you. K.e.coffman (talk) 23:03, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

• People interested in this Op-ed may like to know that there's a related Request for arbitration here, filed by K.e.coffman, which currently looks like it'll be accepted by the Arbitration committee. Bishonen | talk 22:13, 26 April 2018 (UTC).

• Anyone considering expressing dissident opinions should think again. "most respected and experienced arbitrators" are ready for you. MPS1992 (talk) 22:26, 26 April 2018 (UTC)

• Interesting piece - military history tends to be a bit of a closed garden, in which people are either interested, or not. But could not similar criticisms be made of most of our milhist coverage? Articles on say the Napoleonic Wars, Hundred Years War etc rarely dwell much on the mass rapes, pillage and extortion inflicted on the civilian populations of the "theatre". It's perhaps only become a major element of coverage since WW2, for obvious reasons. Johnbod (talk) 11:20, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Well, our articles on military history where they collide with social and political history ought to represent the other sub-disciplines as well. To assist this under "comprehensiveness" and "authoritative sourcing" type criteria I've started querying FA / MILHIST-A proposers regarding their observation of historiography, social history big three (class / gender / race), and whether "unpleasant" things are weightily treated. Fifelfoo (talk) 14:38, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
• This issue also seems to occur in other forms of media. See here for example, where the co-founder of the studio says that members of the Wehrmacht were "doing their duty." Mr Ernie (talk) 14:09, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Mr Ernie: Yes. Our article on the Clean Wehrmacht goes into it a bit, but in the West this myth is common because a rearmed West Germany was needed by the Western Allies during the Cold War, so they promoted the myth. The academic consensus is that it is indeed a myth, but popular histories are often either outdated or out of the mainstream consensus, which makes the problem difficult to deal with on a project like Wikipedia. TonyBallioni (talk) 23:15, 27 April 2018 (UTC)
• In the Helmut Wick good article, we can read "Wick received orders in the late afternoon of 6 October to report to Reichsmarschall Göring in Berlin by 3 p.m. the following day. Due to bad weather, he chose to drive from Normandy to Berlin by car. Together with his wingman and friend, Rudolf Pflanz, Wick travelled all night and arrived at the Reich Air Ministry right on time to meet with Göring, Generalfeldmarschall (Field Marshal) Erhard Milch, Generaloberst (Colonel General) Ernst Udet, General der Flieger (General of the Flyers) Kurt Student and General der Flieger Karl Bodenschatz. After the meeting in Berlin, Wick and Göring drove to Berchtesgaden in the Reichsmarschall's personal train, where they arrived at 5 p.m. on 8 October for the official Oak Leaves presentation". The question is not if this § is sourced to "reliable sources" (RS) or to "shit resources" (SR). The very question is: what the fuck ? Successfully conducting a car over the distance from Los Angeles to El Paso, what an extraordinary achievement ! Pldx1 (talk) 19:25, 29 April 2018 (UTC)
  • Hah. I don't mind an article about Nazi heroes to be stupid and boring. 16:06, 3 May 2018 (UTC)
• To be fair to our efforts, it was here on Wikipedia that I first learned—and read in detail—of the clean Wehrmacht myth. Daniel Case (talk) 20:48, 28 April 2018 (UTC)