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I have resigned as a Signpost editor, effective immediately. The Signpost, a publication I loved and wrote for decades, if irregularly, is simply too editor-hostile, and too against its core mission of providing a voice to the community it purports to serve, or against listening to new ideas. This is the straw that breaks the camel's back. The Signpost could be a welcoming environment open to bold ideas, but under the leadership of Smallbones, it sadly is little but a wall-garden, managed like a piece of critical software that would usher a global financial collapse if anything new is done with it.

Every time someone steps up and try to help, the Signpost shits on them and tell them they are unwelcomed. This was true of the past leadership, and sadly remains true under Smallbones. Good luck to those that still believe in the Signpost. I hope those that keep writing will have an easier time after my efforts to streamline the process and management. But there can't be too many of those around anymore. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:44, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry to lose you as a colleague, and I hate to be critical, but you are attacking people I respect and I want to respond.
If you move some place and find that all the neighbors are jerks, you may have been unlucky. If you move again and find the same, you may have been unlucky again. If you keep doing this, and the same thing happens, it's possible that the neighbors are not the problem.
I haven't found the source for this paraphrase, but it is not original to me. Sincerely, SchreiberBike | ⌨  20:52, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
  • +1 to asshollery. You can move all your life and be jerked around. Sharks smell blood in the water. Crocodiles don't eat for six months at a time, and they are extremely careful about being seen. SchreiberBike has basically said "Good riddance to anyone who admits they've failed!" and claimed their input is design to bolster another for no other reason than to fan their friends words. That's for social media. Fan your friends words on Wikipedia, but only if you've a good reason other than, "I really like fanning my friends words".
  • Calling someone a jerk is sort of racist. A jerk is a bartender for kids.
  • Let me tell you something about publications which stand the true tests of time. A column or a series is not forever. It's not even necessarily for a set time. It's either worth reading or it isn't. It goes on for as long as there is relevant information and space.
  • I thought the column is a good idea. Headbombs work on it seems to have been deleted by Smallbones in an arbitrary manner intended to double up as the message explaining the action. Such manner can spark aggression. ~ R.T.G 18:42, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
@RTG: The term jerk is not racist. You should apologize for throwing around a word like that so irresponsibly. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:07, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
I am not the pitcher here. The term popularised in a place and time where that was the situation (worthless dispostion, ergo, like racism). Someone was unceremonious with an editor. The editor complained. They got an inventive insult for their trouble. When Bike says about paraphrasing, what they are saying is, look how cleverly I insulted you. It sat here for nearly two weeks now. If you want a better response to your issues, produce one. Headbomb is trying to educate people in an appropriate place. He got upside downed in the ice 2x. That hurts. And now it insults. I'd have been interested in the column. What I am sorry for is I haven't found the encouragement. My intention is to encourage the column. My option is to reply to insults. What I am sorry for is, my eyes came off the prize. I am cynical about a result. That's not facilitative. For this much I apologise, genuinely. ~ R.T.G 23:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
It eats me up. I'd love to write stuff for the Signpost. I think the things I am interested in are interesting. But when this came up a couple month ago I said to myself, what is the most relevant thing they lack that you'd like to read up on your self. I reckoned public domain releases from last century and before. The theme of the day was humour. I found there was a loophole in old radio shows in the USA, that ones before a point in the sixties or seventies were branded public domain because they were aired without a recording and without an identifier. Wow I'm gonna do me up some Old Signpost Radio Shows or something. Carlins gonna be famous again (I love that stuff and it would really suit WP). Alas... find me one... Okay, find me ten, for every month, suitable for this purpose. Seemed like no. So if Headbomb is actually managing to come up with something new and relevant, I am saying from a sort of experience, do not give him a hard time.
I was not explaining that, because this is with the regulars here. You already know and operate in the knowledge it is not easy to come up with material. I've got nothing but love for youse, but if you are going to be calling each other jerks and stuff over the really simple stuff, over not being organised and trying to be inventive, well I might feel that you should get a reflection at least once. Plus to that is, when all that fighting was going on there and I was fool in the middle, I really really wanted you to get into your guidelines because they seemed in the right direction but not refined at all. Headbomb was trying to get into that with you. You need that. Goals and methods are like the written blood of any project on Wikipedia, I believe. And even if you can't manage that or don't wish to, insults will not suffice the rain check. It's not my place and I don't read you enough to make demands but THE READERS() are not making ANY demands as you well know. You are like these mysterious beings who all live... Who all live where the Signpost is. In the old day, the first requirement of this job would not be a penchant for writing, but a penchant for reading the endless discussion and requests your readers would send to you. It's a bright new day. The world is on fire. Uh, oh. ~ R.T.G 01:50, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
It is not just that, it is the constant refusal to innovate out of fear and out of conservatism, and to shoot down anyone that brings anything new to the table.
  1. I update the Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue page to help coordinate and preview the next issue of the Signpost. The response? This needs a tripartite technical reviews over weeks, and cutoff dates and what have you before being approved. There's nothing to approve. It's live. It works. No script makes use of the page. But because the regulars didn't think of it, it's was of course, deemed a bad idea that needed to be vetted by the regulars.
  2. A reader thought that the featured section was pretty big, especially on mobile, and it would be useful to get size warnings. I made a fully functional mock up. The response? Shooting the idea down before people even have a chance to comment, and trying to shut the discussion down after support was expressed for it, and technical feasibility was demonstrated.
  3. I write an op-ed outlining all the progress done at The Signpost to make it easier to get involved. The Signpost called for people to get involved for years. I did something about it. Not only did I get involved, I (alongside with many others) made it easier for everyone to get involved. The Signpost response? WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
  4. I write come up with a new type column, something sustainable and in demand, which I would have been more than willing to write on a regular basis. The Signpost response? WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
Now on any individual pieces, you can probably disagree on matters of style or matters of focus and whatever. But the editor-in-chief of a publication which aims to be the voice of the community should give actionable feedback with the aim of actually publishing things from members of the community. Not have a default answer of "NO" to literally everything, or put barriers to collaboration at every possible step in the process. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 09:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
As a reader, I'd have liked this information--it would encourage me to do things more efficient than fixing them manually. It does seem a little long for the usual column, but it probably but be abbreviated slightly. Headbomb, please move it into WP space! DGG ( talk ) 01:45, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
I'll likely submit a reworked version of some kind to the WP:Facto Post, since the Signpost apparently no longer accepts original writing. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 09:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Ever since February it has been clear that the Signpost is being subjected to Wikipedia-space regulations anyway, so having its own editorial mechanism is starting to look redundant. Which leaves their main asset as eyeballs: they have a license to spam a lot of users. The question comes up then, can we develop a Signpost-independent way for newsletter writers to spam some mostly-willing participants? And surely the answer to that could be yes. We could have a Category:User newsletters by month with subcats for each month of each year, in one of which the user places a completed edition; a template/module might then parse the contents to find newsletters within a certain time delay (or maybe you'd have to do it manually; they crippled Lua a looong time ago and I never looked to see if they ever brought alternate functionality back that could do this). Anyway, some kind of ping or attention mechanism could be worked out; there should be various possibilities. Make it so anyone can be an Editor and have control of his own personal little letter and reference/transclude others he likes until it becomes a community newsletter. Wnt (talk) 00:16, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Concerning citation bot itself, I'll reply on your talk page. A Signpost article's talk page would have been great for this so more could benefit, but alas, heads in the sand and all. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:09, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
  • @Doc James: "Do we have / need a voting process..." Our voting process was our election of Editor-in-Chief, which resulted in Smallbones taking over after our last EiC was unfairly run out by a reactionary crowd. Because this publication only occurs thanks to volunteer effort, we can't have drive-by good-idea mongers overruling our current leadership. BTW, please resign your bit as every other mop-swinger is doing. It's a political litmus test. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:11, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Chris, I'm really not personally involved in this particular discussion, but I don't think it is at all appropriate to tell someone to resign so casually. I have been noticing that kind of thing lately, and while I hesitate to put a label on it, it usually looks like bullying to me. If you really think someone should resign, contact them privately first. If you don't, and you just want to be shocking/rude, please reconsider your words. If you volunteer to edit Wikipedia, and even more so if you volunteer with the Signpost, you should know that words matter. Prometheus720 (talk) 18:44, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
@Prometheus720: I have a great admiration for Doc James; I enthusiastically voted him back onto the Board after he was kicked out for revealing WMF shenanigans. Lines are being drawn and either he's with Jimbo, Katherine, and the WMF or he's with the editors. I think it would mean a lot for him to give up his mop in protest. How you didn't understand what I meant, I don't know. This has been a hot issue at WP:BN and discussed actively here. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
User:Chris troutman my allegiances are to our mission. My position is that we will best succeed at achieving that mission by working together as equals. And I will do whatever is in my ability to help us get to that position. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:55, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I reject that there is an US vs THEM situation. Seriously, this sounds like the Queen of Hearts yelling, "Off with their heads!" every time a character disagreed with her. The epitome of reactionary rhetoric. Quit if you want to but now is no time to tell others what they should be doing. It's a personal decision. Liz Read! Talk! 19:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
And again, the Signpost being hostile to anyone that dares disagree with its Dear Leadership. Par for the course, really. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:18, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
And because this bears repeating, not only were the words "drive-by good-idea mongers" written with a straight face, they were used as a negative and something the Signpost needs protection from. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:22, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
@Headbomb: At one time I advocated for you. I do not do so anymore. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't recall one time you ever 'advocated' for me. The first interaction I remember with you was you expressing hope that I "become disassociated with The Signpost and perhaps WIkipedia, as a whole.". In fact diminishing other people's contributions and belittling them, and calling for other people to leave/quit/resign Wikipedia/aspects of Wikipedia when they don't defer to your judgment and preferences is habit of yours. This is nothing new really. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Please everyone, we are in dark times. I know fuses are exceedingly short right now. I respect everyone involved in this conversation. I like Headbomb's idea. I know that the Signpost is a massive amount of work and appreciate everyone who puts in the efforts to get it done. I also know everyone on the Signpost is working overtime on the current crises. I think we can leave further discuss of this to later. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:02, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

  • Yeah it's definitely Jimbo's fault and the WMF cabal. Yeah Tips and Tricks could be a great supplement, but not so long as the, you know possibly failure to ZOMG cooties. ~ R.T.G 15:45, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Go on let Headbomb do it. Let them fail. Let them succeed. Watch it happen. Learn. It's not going to break the sandbox this time it couldn't. I bet there wasn't a cross word before this. You didn't actually fault the work or the idea as far as I have seen. Can you really foresee a single complaint about a well presented Tips and Tricks section? No. Is it going to break whatever bit of coolness and interest youse have going on here? Doubtful... Come on you still didn't hash it out. Let the page fly. It doesn't have to be a regular edition. It will collect in the archives. It's actually a good idea. ~ R.T.G 15:58, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
@RTG:, that's clearly not going to happen, given Smallbones' unapologetic propensity to blank stuff even if it's in my own userspace. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:47, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

New emoji/icon in each link to full articleEdit

What does "📥︎" mean? It looks like a download link, but the link goes to content displayed in the browser window rather than initiating a file download. DMacks (talk) 15:45, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback DMacks! See #Page size estimates above. I think it's supposed to convey "X size if downloaded" ... in previous issues it was effectively disabled by commenting out a template parameter, but for technical reasons we manually published this one and left the parameter in. If other people think it's distracting, I'l go back and comment it out manually. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:26, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
If the icon is confusing, it'd be simpler to just suppress the icon, or replace it with something else. It could be that "~0.4 MB" is clear enough alone, but I felt "~0.4 MB 📥︎" was clearer on mobile. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:45, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Apropos mobile view ( ): It lacks the titles for each section (only the blurbs are showing), does anyone know why? Regard, HaeB (talk) 22:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
@HaeB: Wikipedia:Signpost/Template:Signpost-snippet wraps the title in a <span> element with class=nomobile. Not entirely sure why, but it's been that way since 2015 [1] - Evad37 [talk] 03:53, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't use mobile so I don't know if that icon is standard in the mobile world or if the download-vs-display distinction makes sense. It's definitely not standard in the Wikipedia for links to wiki content to have icons at all. If it's wanted for mobile, there might be a CSS way to limit the display to that platform. The file size is also given, which doesn't bother me one way or the other. DMacks (talk) 11:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Personally, I would prefer not to see the "on mobile" things at all. MPS1992 (talk) 21:48, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Download size apply to non-mobile as well. Whether the information is useful to you or not mostly depend on how wealthy you are, or if you have a data cap or not. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
  • @DMacks, Bri, Headbomb, MPS1992, HaeB, and Evad37:In the old day of paperwork in an office, part of a stereotyping of an office, often for humour but also for symbols like this, there would be a two plastic trays. One would be for paperwork in, which is symbolised by the above symbol, and the other would be paperwork out, symbolised by the arrow pointing upward. Now, I don't know if that's the intention of this symbol by the creator and loading up the lists of mobile symbols and their meanings on WP sort of fails on my comp (those lists are actually the largest articles on WP recently so understandable). Hope that doesn't put you off using it for whatever you were using it for if it fits! ~ R.T.G 00:19, 30 July 2019 (UTC)

100 crore?Edit

Hi @DuncanHill: thanks for the note on the undo. @Chris troutman: is the call out "WMF grants program changes position on funding random individuals globally and 100 crore people in one region" intended to refer to 109 people (perhaps purposefully exaggerated)? Came off a bit odd to me as the first blurb. Thanks! — xaosflux Talk 18:05, 31 July 2019 (UTC)

The population of India is rather more than 100 crore. I think the reference is to the WMF pulling the plug on Wikimedia India. DuncanHill (talk) 18:10, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, learned a new word today :D — xaosflux Talk 18:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
I made it a wikilink to crore for those unfamiliar with the term. Should it be added to List of unusual units of measurement? --Guy Macon (talk) 18:55, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
It's not unusual, over a billion people in the largest democracy in the world are familiar with it. Do we have a List of units of measurement unfamiliar to systemically-biased encyclopaedias? DuncanHill (talk) 19:16, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
It's a very unusual unit anywhere outside of India. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:14, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
Just as the Cord (unit) is a very unusual unit anywhere outside of the United States and Canada. And it is listed at List of unusual units of measurement. Perhaps we should have a List of units of measurement demonstrating that not everything is an example of systemic bias? --Guy Macon (talk) 21:11, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
List of units of measurement that people can't be bothered to type into search gets my vote. It always amazes me how many Wikipedia readers and editors do not appear to have access to the internet and its vast resources. Anyway, if you think it should be on that list then either be bold and add it yourself, or propose it on the article talk page. I wouldn't regard cords as unusual either, or indeed confined to Canada and the USA. DuncanHill (talk) 21:21, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
It's not a unit of measurement, just a number. – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 21:53, 31 July 2019 (UTC)
I think it's safe to say it is an unusual unit of measurement outside of Indian English, which the rest of the page doesn't appear to be written in. No problems with it being used, but linking may help readers such as me better understand the message! Side note, went to List of dialects of English and was hoping to find a table of dialects by population of primary users - anyone know if we have one? — xaosflux Talk 19:19, 1 August 2019 (UTC)
I think filelakeshoe's point was that it's a numerical value rather than a unit of measurement ("a standardised quantity of a physical property"), for the same reason a "milliard" or a hundred isn't a unit of measurement; it's just the Indian English word for "10 million". —Nizolan (talk · c.) 15:13, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
Good point by filelakeshoe and Nizolan. On the other hand, List of unusual units of measurement already has several numerical values, such as Encyclopædia Britannica ("the size of Wikipedia is X Encyclopædia Britannicas") and List of obsolete units of measurement includes the Dimi (Metric prefix#dimi). That doesn't imply that crore should be added of course. Perhaps those should be removed as being numerical prefixes/suffixes rather than units of measurement. --Guy Macon (talk) 18:14, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
As described in the article, Encyclopædia Britannica is a dimensioned quantity of a number of characters. (I haven't looked closely enough at the article to comment on any other possibly dimensionless numbers.) isaacl (talk) 18:35, 2 August 2019 (UTC)
(ec) The Encyclopaedia Britannica is a unit of data volume, not a number. It means "300 million characters", not "300 million". One can have a crore of rupees, or people, or mosquitoes, one cannot have an Encyclopaedia Britannica of any of those things. DuncanHill (talk) 18:38, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

xaosflux I know this word from my working trips to India, but normal numbers are also used. What needs to be decided is: Should the en.Wiki be written in international English that everyone understands, or should it be accepted that by sheer numbers, the en.Wiki is now practically the South Asia Wikipedia in English - in which case all articles about S.Asia should be forked off. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:45, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

@Kudpung: I don't see this as being enough of an issue to fork, but if there was going to be a dialect fork from English Wikipedia to say the "Indian English Wikipedia", I'd suspect all articles would need to be forked to best present to Indian English readers and that the content of the article wouldn't really matter. As far as articles here go, WP:ENGVAR guidance should be fine - but just like with other measurements (e.g. meters/feet , degrees F/C) a units of measure conversion notation may be the best way to accommodate the most readers. — xaosflux Talk 11:17, 12 August 2019 (UTC)
@Xaosflux:, I didn't mean a dialect fork. I meant a regional/cultural fork. Already due to sheer numbers that the traditional angloshphere cannot compete with, cultural dichotomies between out contributors are beginning to make themselves felt. Obviously as a European, living these past 20 years in Asia, and a 40-year career in applied linguistics, I see a real potential for a new WikiMedia project. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 August 2019Edit

I want the {pp} template to go on there. Mr. Juicyfun (Obliterator time!) 18:23, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

@Mr. Juicyfun:  DoneMJLTalk 18:28, 2 August 2019 (UTC)

Wikipedia is no longer an encyclopediaEdit

according to WMF staff. Make of this what you will but there is possibly an article lurking for The Signpost, especially in conjunction with this new WMF project. More of it here Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 04:36, 12 August 2019 (UTC)

I read through that discussion ( now here), and it seems the claim "WMF staff says Wikipedia is no longer an encyclopedia" is false; it came from a diversity working group, and they did not use those words. Jimbo Wales said that idea was "just wrong" and it's going nowhere. It seems like it's just a poorly articulated comment someone made in a meeting that got recorded in minutes. There's no story here. -- Beland (talk) 16:39, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
There is a story here. The story is that a working group organized by the WMF was able to create a proposal posted by the WMF staffer who was advising them and published on a special page on meta without any sort of disclaimer explaining that this wasn't a WMF proposal. Combine this with the fact that certain previous proposals hidden away in obscure corners of meta and never commented on ended up turning into giant shitstorms when they were implemented and it suddenly becomes a reasonable course of action to publicize and vigorously oppose all such proposals, and to ignore the well-meaning voices calling for us to ignore the proposals. If the WMF doesn't want us to take such proposals seriously, they should either have someone review them for sanity before publication or publish them with a disclaimer. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:20, 9 September 2019 (UTC)
It's as dumb as the claim the WMF made at Wikimania in Haifa that every established user began their Wiki career as a vandal. There really are some stupid people employed by the Foundation, and those work groups, BTW, also get free food, flights, and fancy accommodation. 17:32, 18 September 2019 (UTC)Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk)
I think that "Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia" is not really what was meant in diversity working group recommendation 2. In the context of the rest of the discussion, it looked more like it was saying that the "classical notion" of an encyclopedia needed to be discard (indeed as Wikipedia has done since its inceptions due to it unique scope and method of creation). The focus of discussion seems to have been that people have erroneously interpreted the "classical notion of an encyclopedia and universal knowledge" to encompass a biased subset of topics, which is pretty well-documented at this point. Wikipedia has clearly already moved far beyond the scope scope of classical encyclopedias, but still has systemic biases (in each language version) on a variety of topics.
Although I understand the worries about reimbursement for working group's food and flight expenses, I think it would have been far more exclusionary for only people who can afford such things to have been able to contribute. I think that people in the working groups are acting in good faith in trying to form a strategy in a way different to how the Gang of Four would do so, and much more lead by similar efforts by e.g. Mozilla. T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)talk 07:31, 19 September 2019 (UTC)
Evolution and evolvability, I'll stand corrected, but I'll think you'll find that many of the people specially selected to be part of those work groups could have afforded to attend the meetings on their own steam. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 11:17, 24 September 2019 (UTC)

I'll judge for myself, if Wikipedia is or isn't an encylopedia :) GoodDay (talk) 17:34, 18 September 2019 (UTC)

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