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Page size estimatesEdit

Previous discussion: Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/Newsroom/Archive 5#Size_estimates

Continuing on the previous discussion, it is technically feasible for the publication script to get size estimates. For this issue they were inserted as hidden comments in on the main Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost page, and are fairly close to the transferred bytes reported by the network section of Chrome DevTools. So now we can decide whether/how to implement such a feature. Some points to consider:

  • Smaller pages don't really need a size warning – perhaps this should just be used for larger pages over some arbitrary threshold
  • The main Signpost page isn't the only way to navigate to the articles – there's also talkpage messages, mailing list email, templates like {{Signpost-subscription}}, RSS feeds, and "In this issue" links at the bottom of each article.
  • Should we just try to keep page sizes smaller instead? This would mean that featured content would probably have to only show images for FPs (at a smaller size), and maybe one or two images for each of the articles, lists, and topics sections.

- Evad37 [talk] 00:31, 1 May 2019 (UTC)

If you want to add the page size for the larger pages, e.g. Featured articles, go ahead but it looks more complicated with all the access pages. Perhaps just on the main Signpost page if it's not too easy for the other methods.
And if you want to just go with smaller and fewer images, that's ok with me. Let's just keep it simple. If it's something that might conceivably delay publication by 30 minutes while somebody figures out what went wrong, I wouldn't want that. That would mean that I have no clue how to fix it! Smallbones(smalltalk) 13:29, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
There's an argument to include it for small pages too, given that this lets users/mobile users know that this is indeed a small page (and this lets us avoid the debate about what exactly is 'small'). I'm all for adding it to other ways of accessing the Signpost (e.g. on delivery pages) if it's doable, but that can be done later if it's not straightforward to do so at the moment. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 13:41, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
This is now done for the main page. There's no additional delay needed for the publishing script, the change there is literally just dropping the hidden comment tags (<!-- and -->) from the script's output for the main page, along with this change to Wikipedia:Signpost/Template:Signpost-snippet. Pinging @Smallbones: as an FYI - Evad37 [talk] 03:55, 28 June 2019 (UTC)
@Evad37: I like this. Thank you. --Pine (✉) 05:11, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

PraisingEdit

I just want to thank Wikipedians on the Science desk for their immense aid they gave me regarding mental health (without giving medical advice of course), and I want to thank Wikipedia for being such an open-minded place. Apart from that I'd suggest Wikipedia prints a year bulletin! would be awesome! Very kind regards! -- --LLcentury (talk) 11:28, 19 May 2019 (UTC)

ResignEdit

I have resigned as a Signpost editor, effective immediately. The Signpost, a publication I loved and wrote for decades, if irregularly, is simply too editor-hostile, and too against its core mission of providing a voice to the community it purports to serve, or against listening to new ideas. This is the straw that breaks the camel's back. The Signpost could be a welcoming environment open to bold ideas, but under the leadership of Smallbones, it sadly is little but a wall-garden, managed like a piece of critical software that would usher a global financial collapse if anything new is done with it.

Every time someone steps up and try to help, the Signpost shits on them and tell them they are unwelcomed. This was true of the past leadership, and sadly remains true under Smallbones. Good luck to those that still believe in the Signpost. I hope those that keep writing will have an easier time after my efforts to streamline the process and management. But there can't be too many of those around anymore. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 19:44, 5 June 2019 (UTC)

I'm sorry to lose you as a colleague, and I hate to be critical, but you are attacking people I respect and I want to respond.
If you move some place and find that all the neighbors are jerks, you may have been unlucky. If you move again and find the same, you may have been unlucky again. If you keep doing this, and the same thing happens, it's possible that the neighbors are not the problem.
I haven't found the source for this paraphrase, but it is not original to me. Sincerely, SchreiberBike | ⌨  20:52, 5 June 2019 (UTC)
  • +1 to asshollery. You can move all your life and be jerked around. Sharks smell blood in the water. Crocodiles don't eat for six months at a time, and they are extremely careful about being seen. SchreiberBike has basically said "Good riddance to anyone who admits they've failed!" and claimed their input is design to bolster another for no other reason than to fan their friends words. That's for social media. Fan your friends words on Wikipedia, but only if you've a good reason other than, "I really like fanning my friends words".
  • Calling someone a jerk is sort of racist. A jerk is a bartender for kids.
  • Let me tell you something about publications which stand the true tests of time. A column or a series is not forever. It's not even necessarily for a set time. It's either worth reading or it isn't. It goes on for as long as there is relevant information and space.
  • I thought the column is a good idea. Headbombs work on it seems to have been deleted by Smallbones in an arbitrary manner intended to double up as the message explaining the action. Such manner can spark aggression. ~ R.T.G 18:42, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
@RTG: The term jerk is not racist. You should apologize for throwing around a word like that so irresponsibly. Chris Troutman (talk) 21:07, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
I am not the pitcher here. The term popularised in a place and time where that was the situation (worthless dispostion, ergo, like racism). Someone was unceremonious with an editor. The editor complained. They got an inventive insult for their trouble. When Bike says about paraphrasing, what they are saying is, look how cleverly I insulted you. It sat here for nearly two weeks now. If you want a better response to your issues, produce one. Headbomb is trying to educate people in an appropriate place. He got upside downed in the ice 2x. That hurts. And now it insults. I'd have been interested in the column. What I am sorry for is I haven't found the encouragement. My intention is to encourage the column. My option is to reply to insults. What I am sorry for is, my eyes came off the prize. I am cynical about a result. That's not facilitative. For this much I apologise, genuinely. ~ R.T.G 23:53, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
It eats me up. I'd love to write stuff for the Signpost. I think the things I am interested in are interesting. But when this came up a couple month ago I said to myself, what is the most relevant thing they lack that you'd like to read up on your self. I reckoned public domain releases from last century and before. The theme of the day was humour. I found there was a loophole in old radio shows in the USA, that ones before a point in the sixties or seventies were branded public domain because they were aired without a recording and without an identifier. Wow I'm gonna do me up some Old Signpost Radio Shows or something. Carlins gonna be famous again (I love that stuff and it would really suit WP). Alas... find me one... Okay, find me ten, for every month, suitable for this purpose. Seemed like no. So if Headbomb is actually managing to come up with something new and relevant, I am saying from a sort of experience, do not give him a hard time.
I was not explaining that, because this is with the regulars here. You already know and operate in the knowledge it is not easy to come up with material. I've got nothing but love for youse, but if you are going to be calling each other jerks and stuff over the really simple stuff, over not being organised and trying to be inventive, well I might feel that you should get a reflection at least once. Plus to that is, when all that fighting was going on there and I was fool in the middle, I really really wanted you to get into your guidelines because they seemed in the right direction but not refined at all. Headbomb was trying to get into that with you. You need that. Goals and methods are like the written blood of any project on Wikipedia, I believe. And even if you can't manage that or don't wish to, insults will not suffice the rain check. It's not my place and I don't read you enough to make demands but THE READERS() are not making ANY demands as you well know. You are like these mysterious beings who all live... Who all live where the Signpost is. In the old day, the first requirement of this job would not be a penchant for writing, but a penchant for reading the endless discussion and requests your readers would send to you. It's a bright new day. The world is on fire. Uh, oh. ~ R.T.G 01:50, 17 June 2019 (UTC)
It is not just that, it is the constant refusal to innovate out of fear and out of conservatism, and to shoot down anyone that brings anything new to the table.
  1. I update the Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue page to help coordinate and preview the next issue of the Signpost. The response? This needs a tripartite technical reviews over weeks, and cutoff dates and what have you before being approved. There's nothing to approve. It's live. It works. No script makes use of the page. But because the regulars didn't think of it, it's was of course, deemed a bad idea that needed to be vetted by the regulars.
  2. A reader thought that the featured section was pretty big, especially on mobile, and it would be useful to get size warnings. I made a fully functional mock up. The response? Shooting the idea down before people even have a chance to comment, and trying to shut the discussion down after support was expressed for it, and technical feasibility was demonstrated.
  3. I write an op-ed outlining all the progress done at The Signpost to make it easier to get involved. The Signpost called for people to get involved for years. I did something about it. Not only did I get involved, I (alongside with many others) made it easier for everyone to get involved. The Signpost response? WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
  4. I write come up with a new type column, something sustainable and in demand, which I would have been more than willing to write on a regular basis. The Signpost response? WP:IDONTLIKEIT.
Now on any individual pieces, you can probably disagree on matters of style or matters of focus and whatever. But the editor-in-chief of a publication which aims to be the voice of the community should give actionable feedback with the aim of actually publishing things from members of the community. Not have a default answer of "NO" to literally everything, or put barriers to collaboration at every possible step in the process. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 09:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
As a reader, I'd have liked this information--it would encourage me to do things more efficient than fixing them manually. It does seem a little long for the usual column, but it probably but be abbreviated slightly. Headbomb, please move it into WP space! DGG ( talk ) 01:45, 22 June 2019 (UTC)
I'll likely submit a reworked version of some kind to the WP:Facto Post, since the Signpost apparently no longer accepts original writing. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 09:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

Ever since February it has been clear that the Signpost is being subjected to Wikipedia-space regulations anyway, so having its own editorial mechanism is starting to look redundant. Which leaves their main asset as eyeballs: they have a license to spam a lot of users. The question comes up then, can we develop a Signpost-independent way for newsletter writers to spam some mostly-willing participants? And surely the answer to that could be yes. We could have a Category:User newsletters by month with subcats for each month of each year, in one of which the user places a completed edition; a template/module might then parse the contents to find newsletters within a certain time delay (or maybe you'd have to do it manually; they crippled Lua a looong time ago and I never looked to see if they ever brought alternate functionality back that could do this). Anyway, some kind of ping or attention mechanism could be worked out; there should be various possibilities. Make it so anyone can be an Editor and have control of his own personal little letter and reference/transclude others he likes until it becomes a community newsletter. Wnt (talk) 00:16, 24 June 2019 (UTC)

Concerning citation bot itself, I'll reply on your talk page. A Signpost article's talk page would have been great for this so more could benefit, but alas, heads in the sand and all. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:09, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
  • @Doc James: "Do we have / need a voting process..." Our voting process was our election of Editor-in-Chief, which resulted in Smallbones taking over after our last EiC was unfairly run out by a reactionary crowd. Because this publication only occurs thanks to volunteer effort, we can't have drive-by good-idea mongers overruling our current leadership. BTW, please resign your bit as every other mop-swinger is doing. It's a political litmus test. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:11, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Chris, I'm really not personally involved in this particular discussion, but I don't think it is at all appropriate to tell someone to resign so casually. I have been noticing that kind of thing lately, and while I hesitate to put a label on it, it usually looks like bullying to me. If you really think someone should resign, contact them privately first. If you don't, and you just want to be shocking/rude, please reconsider your words. If you volunteer to edit Wikipedia, and even more so if you volunteer with the Signpost, you should know that words matter. Prometheus720 (talk) 18:44, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
@Prometheus720: I have a great admiration for Doc James; I enthusiastically voted him back onto the Board after he was kicked out for revealing WMF shenanigans. Lines are being drawn and either he's with Jimbo, Katherine, and the WMF or he's with the editors. I think it would mean a lot for him to give up his mop in protest. How you didn't understand what I meant, I don't know. This has been a hot issue at WP:BN and discussed actively here. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
User:Chris troutman my allegiances are to our mission. My position is that we will best succeed at achieving that mission by working together as equals. And I will do whatever is in my ability to help us get to that position. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 20:55, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I reject that there is an US vs THEM situation. Seriously, this sounds like the Queen of Hearts yelling, "Off with their heads!" every time a character disagreed with her. The epitome of reactionary rhetoric. Quit if you want to but now is no time to tell others what they should be doing. It's a personal decision. Liz Read! Talk! 19:53, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
And again, the Signpost being hostile to anyone that dares disagree with its Dear Leadership. Par for the course, really. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:18, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
And because this bears repeating, not only were the words "drive-by good-idea mongers" written with a straight face, they were used as a negative and something the Signpost needs protection from. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:22, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
@Headbomb: At one time I advocated for you. I do not do so anymore. Chris Troutman (talk) 19:12, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
I don't recall one time you ever 'advocated' for me. The first interaction I remember with you was you expressing hope that I "become disassociated with The Signpost and perhaps WIkipedia, as a whole.". In fact diminishing other people's contributions and belittling them, and calling for other people to leave/quit/resign Wikipedia/aspects of Wikipedia when they don't defer to your judgment and preferences is habit of yours. This is nothing new really. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:56, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Please everyone, we are in dark times. I know fuses are exceedingly short right now. I respect everyone involved in this conversation. I like Headbomb's idea. I know that the Signpost is a massive amount of work and appreciate everyone who puts in the efforts to get it done. I also know everyone on the Signpost is working overtime on the current crises. I think we can leave further discuss of this to later. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 21:02, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

  • Yeah it's definitely Jimbo's fault and the WMF cabal. Yeah Tips and Tricks could be a great supplement, but not so long as the, you know possibly failure to ZOMG cooties. ~ R.T.G 15:45, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
Go on let Headbomb do it. Let them fail. Let them succeed. Watch it happen. Learn. It's not going to break the sandbox this time it couldn't. I bet there wasn't a cross word before this. You didn't actually fault the work or the idea as far as I have seen. Can you really foresee a single complaint about a well presented Tips and Tricks section? No. Is it going to break whatever bit of coolness and interest youse have going on here? Doubtful... Come on you still didn't hash it out. Let the page fly. It doesn't have to be a regular edition. It will collect in the archives. It's actually a good idea. ~ R.T.G 15:58, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

Fram banEdit

Still no article on this? How come?--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:05, 29 June 2019 (UTC)

Because it's wating for adequate secondary coverage to pass WP:N. Otherwise it's still a purely WP internal matter, and there's plenty of that within the WP namespace. Andy Dingley (talk) 22:57, 29 June 2019 (UTC)
Ok I'm a bit lost here. I thought the Signpost was for (internal) news by Wikipedian for Wikipedians in particular to inform people not following various other prject sites (or even being aware of them). Waiting for secondary coverage sounds more like a Wikinews approach. That aside external news are already writing about it as can be seen in Wikipedia:Press_coverage_2019#June.--Kmhkmh (talk) 02:34, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Are you folks OK? The Signpost is not a daily publication. I think it's monthly or twice a month or something? It's easy to see that an article is being worked on. MPS1992 (talk) 02:52, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
What we've got here is failure to communicate.[1] It appears that Kmhkmh and MPS1992 are talking about an article in The Signpost while Andy Dingley is talking about a Wikipedia article. --Guy Macon (talk) 03:23, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
@MPS1992: Ah ok, but where can I actually see that?--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:43, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
I guess you meant the suggestion section? I didn't see that before, I probably should have posted there rather than here (I'm not regular signpost reader), however I did not see an actual article in the works.--Kmhkmh (talk) 03:49, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Kmhkmh, the draft Signpost article on the Fram ban is at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Next issue/Discussion report. Voceditenore (talk) 05:12, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
@Voceditenore: Where to/why did it vanish now?--Kmhkmh (talk) 14:32, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
The drafts disappear when they are published. Now in 06-30 issue. See Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-06-30/Discussion reportBri (talk) 15:27, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
A special report on this topic has now also vanished. Now you see it, now you don't. What is going on? MPS1992 (talk) 21:47, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
@MPS1992: See the section below.--Kmhkmh (talk) 22:41, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
@Kmhkmh: I am not sure what you are informing me of. My understanding is that the Signpost did indeed publish an article about this topic. Or several articles. Am I mistaken? MPS1992 (talk) 22:57, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

──────────────────────────── we have it here List of Wikipedia controversies#2019 --SharabSalam (talk) 23:10, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Yes, I !voted to put it there. Not sure why User:Kmhkmh is still confused. MPS1992 (talk) 23:19, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
@MPS1992: Not sure whether or what I'm confused about. You seem to ask a question which I tried to answer ("report vanished [...] What's going on?"). I thought the section below (posting by Mjroots) somewhat answers your question or does it not?--Kmhkmh (talk) 23:55, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Thank you for your insights. MPS1992 (talk) 00:05, 2 July 2019 (UTC)
For what it is worth, I read the report before it was deleted due WP:BLP concerns and imho the deletion was a bad idea as I noticed no obvious WP:BLP issue requiring that. The deletion however increases the intransparaency of the whole affair and blocks other editors/readers from developing an informed opinion.--Kmhkmh (talk) 00:09, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

New emoji/icon in each link to full articleEdit

What does "📥︎" mean? It looks like a download link, but the link goes to content displayed in the browser window rather than initiating a file download. DMacks (talk) 15:45, 30 June 2019 (UTC)

Thanks for your feedback DMacks! See #Page size estimates above. I think it's supposed to convey "X size if downloaded" ... in previous issues it was effectively disabled by commenting out a template parameter, but for technical reasons we manually published this one and left the parameter in. If other people think it's distracting, I'l go back and comment it out manually. ☆ Bri (talk) 16:26, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
If the icon is confusing, it'd be simpler to just suppress the icon, or replace it with something else. It could be that "~0.4 MB" is clear enough alone, but I felt "~0.4 MB 📥︎" was clearer on mobile. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 17:45, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
Apropos mobile view (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost ): It lacks the titles for each section (only the blurbs are showing), does anyone know why? Regard, HaeB (talk) 22:54, 30 June 2019 (UTC)
@HaeB: Wikipedia:Signpost/Template:Signpost-snippet wraps the title in a <span> element with class=nomobile. Not entirely sure why, but it's been that way since 2015 [2] - Evad37 [talk] 03:53, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
I don't use mobile so I don't know if that icon is standard in the mobile world or if the download-vs-display distinction makes sense. It's definitely not standard in the Wikipedia for links to wiki content to have icons at all. If it's wanted for mobile, there might be a CSS way to limit the display to that platform. The file size is also given, which doesn't bother me one way or the other. DMacks (talk) 11:45, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Personally, I would prefer not to see the "on mobile" things at all. MPS1992 (talk) 21:48, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Download size apply to non-mobile as well. Whether the information is useful to you or not mostly depend on how wealthy you are, or if you have a data cap or not. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 20:49, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

FramEdit

Do we really need not one, not two, but three articles about Fram? Signpost coming at it again with that journalistic integrity, throwing gasoline on an already heated issue. The Pony Toast 🍞 (Talk) 01:06, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

Humbug.--Kmhkmh (talk) 09:59, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Well, it would seem there was at least one too many! Carrite (talk) 16:26, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Special ReportEdit

I have hidden the link to the special report, which was deleted due to WP:BLP concerns. The issue has also been raised at WP:ARC. This is an administrative action, and any reversal will be considered as wheel warring and dealt with as such. Mjroots (talk) 18:08, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

What exactly do want to revert to here anyhow? A red link?--Kmhkmh (talk) 18:35, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Kmhkmh - What I did was to hide the redlink. I don't want that edit reverted unless the article is both restored and BLP compliant. Mjroots (talk) 19:30, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
I have no issue with that. I'm just saying whether the red link is visible or not doesn't seem to cause WP:BLP issues in either case. What might cause WP:BLP issues would be recreatimg the deleted page.--Kmhkmh (talk) 21:14, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
Should we make the various links to that page consistent -- all hidden or all visible? On Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-06-30/Discussion report The link is indeed hidden as described above, but the exact same link (and links to Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests#Disputed Signpost article and Wikipedia talk:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-06-30/Special report) is still on another part the page -- and on pretty much every current signpost page -- in the "In this issue" sidebar. --Guy Macon (talk) 12:59, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

RfC notificationEdit

There is a discussion at Wikipedia:Village pump (proposals)#End the Signpost. Please comment there not here. wumbolo ^^^ 20:13, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Snow closed. Literally nobody agreed with Wumbolo. --Guy Macon (talk) 00:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

2019-06-30 archive layoutEdit

Page Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/Archives/2019-06-30 transcludes Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-06-30 through Template:Signpost archive with display format 2 of template Wikipedia:Signpost/Template:Cover-item. Because it does not account for the extra comment * deleted ..., the layout on the archive subpage is broken. Namely, "*deleted" comment is in the middle of second column rather than near the red link it was intended for. Not sure what would be a good way to resolve this. Wikipedia:Signpost/Template:Cover-item could be taught two new parameters: |strike=yes and |comment=additional text, so that page Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2019-06-30 would not need unsupported <s>...</s> and comment "*deleted" did not disrupt the archive page layout. I've only noticed it, because mini-subscription template {{Signpost-subscription-inline}} links to the Archives subpage. —⁠andrybak (talk) 21:41, 2 July 2019 (UTC)

Video game segmentEdit

This was proposed at the Video games Newsletter about having a page dedicated to the Video Game WikiProject. Like a monthly report about the project. Could that be something that could happen here in the future? GamerPro64 22:46, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

I'd actually support broadening this concept to a section that includes all the current active newsletters, with each newsletter having a paragraph or two synopsis to be transcluded into an article (with links out to the full newsletters). could also be easily automated so that workload is minimal (suggestion at WP:Wikipedia_Signpost/Newsroom/Suggestions#Template:Newsletters). T.Shafee(Evo&Evo)talk 00:55, 9 July 2019 (UTC)

Chuck Klostermann book profiled in TIMEEdit

Saw this reference to Wikipedia in popular fiction and thought I’d share. [[3]] TimTempleton (talk) (cont) 14:13, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Add class attributeEdit

More of a meta issue here. Can we wrap the page in a <div class="signpost"> or something to make it easier for custom user styles to target these pages? As an example, right now I have to resort to selectors like a[href*="Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost"] > span to target the article titles, which could instead be simplified to div.signpost a > span if the class is implemented. This would make it easier for styles like StylishThemes/Wikipedia-Dark to work as well. — AfroThundr (u · t · c) 00:24, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

Return to the project page "Wikipedia Signpost".