Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Boxing/Archive 1

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Archive 5

List of male boxers

I have created list of male boxers if anyone want to help, I have created a table showing their most recent fight etc. if anyone wants to put any of these boxers in to tables I have done A-B you could also cut some boxers out as they may not be worth bothering about. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukaz87 (talk • contribs) 03:01, 3 August 2010 (UTC)

List of Commonwealth Boxing Council Champions

Hi I am hoping for someone to contribute to my pages and help finish them as I think Commonwealth Champions list is much needed in this project please visit and help complete List of Commonwealth Boxing Council Champions, also I created another page of Vladine Biosse if anyone knows anymore about him I have researched him and have written small amount maybe someone can help finish it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukaz87 (talk • contribs) 03:57, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Gypsy Bare knuckle fighters

Hi guys, im Romany and from a bare knuckle back ground, I would like to give you more information on famous bare knuckle men such as Jimmy stockins, Bartley Gorman, Jonny Love, Darren Jackson, Henry Jackson, Mark Ripley. I have started to add some to the list and also those that are already on there make there own wiki page, any help would be grateful.Diamonddannyboy (talk) 21:51, 17 January 2008 (UTC) All my work has been deleted on Mark Ripley and Jonny Love,, can any one help...Diamonddannyboy (talk) 22:08, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Articles for the Wikipedia 1.0 project

Hi, I'm a member of the Wikipedia:Version_1.0_Editorial_Team, which is looking to identify quality articles in Wikipedia for future publication on CD or paper. We recently began assessing using these criteria, and we are looking for A-class, B-class, and Good articles, with no POV or copyright problems. Can you recommend any suitable articles? Please post your suggestions here. Thanks a lot! Gflores ^Talk 17:40, 2 February 2006 (UTC)

• Floyd Mayweather Jr. –ArcTheLad 03:35, 13 April 2006 (UTC)

is a biography of a boxer will do? if so, i'm suggesting the article Manny Pacquiao thanks and more power.RebSkii 19:31, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

new category: Category:Deaths due to injuries sustained in boxing

Following yesterday's death of Kevin Payne, a welterweight professional boxer who died from injuries sustained in a boxing bout, I wrote the bio article (a stub) about him and created a new category, since there wasn't one dealing with boxing deaths. -- Mareklug ^talk 22:17, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

For anyone who is interested in extending this category, the boxrec excyclopedia probably has the most extensive list of boxers who have died of injury from boxing. [1]

Participation

I didn't realize I was already participating. I accept even though it was after the fact. Maya Levy 07:09, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

New Record table

New record table template was made.

• Template:Fightstatstop
• Template:Fightstatscont
• Template:Fightstatsbottom

• example:Muhammad Ali's record is shown as

Number	Date	Result	Round	Method	Opponent	Nationality	Note
47	October 30, 1974	Win	8R 2:58	KO	George Foreman	USA	WBA & WBC World Heavyweight titlematch

--Yappakoredesho 22:50, 22 June 2006 (UTC)

Personally I think a list of a fighters whole record is a little spacey and can be fixed by putting a Boxrec external link. Maya Levy 12:49, 25 August 2006 (UTC)

I totally agree. The listing out of the records is entirely unnecessary and amounts to a really sloppy looking article. For example, look at Oscar De La Hoya. The article is probably 3x longer than it needs to be, since one can just click the link to boxrec. And the work to maintain these records is unsustainable. Jackboogie 12:54, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Jackboogie pages like De La Hoya are a mess but that is why I have been going through the pages to sort these table stats out and if we stopped using them I would be quite anoyed as seen as though I have spent so much time fixing these tables. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ukaz87 (talk • contribs) 12:43, 22 July 2010 (UTC)

Jackboogie iv sorted out Oscar De La Hoya abit if you could name some more on my page and il start doing some moreUkAz87 —Preceding undated comment added 23:04, 23 July 2010 (UTC).

I after disagree, people dont want to have to go to other websites to read their stats its much better just to have it on the page with the boxers bio, having information on wiki is to make it alot easier to get all there info from one place rather than having to troll round the net for it so using boxrec and external sources kills the point.

I would rather my personal oppinion just come on to wiki look up a boxer and have everything on one page thats what its their for .

I really dont like them tables they are real dull and not so easy to read I prefer a table like this which I use.

Of the different style tables I've seen on wikipedia, I find the example below to be the best. Although, I would suggest that the KO methods are not needed. It has the advantage of being expandable, which would be handy for the old style boxers that fought hundreds of times. Mr.Apples2010 (talk) 16:59, 7 August 2010 (UTC)

Boxing record

66 Wins (51 T(KO)'s, 14 decisions , 1 disqualification), 6 Losses (1 T(KO), 5 decisions), 11 Draws Date Result Opponent Location Method Round Time Record 1927-09-22 Loss Gene Tunney Soldier Field, Chicago, IL Decision (Unanimous) 10 3:00 66-6-11 Fight was for NBA and World Heavyweight titles. 1927-06-21 Win Jack Sharkey Yankee Stadium, The Bronx, NY KO (Left hook) 7 (15) 0:45 66-5-11 1926-09-23 Loss Gene Tunney Sesquicentennial Stadium, Philadelphia, PA Decision (Unanimous) 10 3:00 65-5-11 Lost NBA and World Heavyweight titles. 1923-09-14 Win Luis Ángel Firpo Polo Grounds, New York City, NY KO (Short right) 2 (15) 0:57 65-4-11 Retains New York State Athletic Commission and World Heavyweight titles 1923-07-04 Win Tommy Gibbons Shelby, MT Decision (Unanimous) 15 3:00 64-4-11 1922-07-24 Win Jimmy Darcy Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY Decision 4 3:00 63-4-11 Legend:   Win   Loss   Draw/No contest   Notes

new category: category:Southpaw boxers

Seemed like a good idea. Pascal.Tesson 05:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC)

Suggestion for new category: category:National Golden Gloves Winners

I was thinking of creating a Golden Gloves category, but I'm not sure if people would get it confused w/the Gold Gloves in baseball or the New York tournament. Maya Levy 08:39, 21 September 2006 (UTC)

As you've pointed out in the category name, I think that the national golden gloves would stand out for boxing. This would distinguish it from any state level golden gloves tournaments or a golden glove in baseball.

WBA Disambiguation

I am not a member of the boxing project, but when I have some spare time I have a go at removing disambiguous links to WBA and many of them are for World Boxing Association, particularly within the Template:Championshiptitle. An example is Reggie Johnson.

Is there anything that can be done to cut down on the WBA disambiguous links in the future from this template? Pixie2000 20:46, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

National Titles

I was just editing some articles relating to boxers who hold or are going to challenge for the british heavyweight title. I was surprised to find that there isn't an article about this historic title already? Or perhaps there is but under a name that I couldn't think of. Initially I linked to British Heavyweight Championship but obviously this article isn't the one I was thinking of. British Heavyweight Title is not any better either. Anyone got any ideas?--Wikipediatastic 16:41, 10 November 2006 (UTC)

Permission to be part of this project

i'm asking permission to enter this article Boxing at the 2006 Asian Games to be part of this project. thanks alot and more power.RebSkii 19:40, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Stablepedia

Beginning cross-post.

See Wikipedia talk:Version 1.0 Editorial Team#Stablepedia. If you wish to comment, please comment there. ★MESSEDROCKER★ 02:31, 26 November 2006 (UTC)

End cross-post. Please do not comment more in this section.

Pictures and the Copyright confusion

I guess I'm going to fill my winter boredom by going through and putting the infobox's up and tagging upcoming fights for random boxer articles, but the one thing I still need help with is pictures to fill the boxes. I've only gotten one picture up before I stopped bothering, which was itself deleted before I managed to drag an Australian Admin to help sort it out. I still have no clue as to getting any pictures,promotional or otherwise, for boxers past the copyright freaks that roam wikipedia. Any help with that, maybe a simplified walk-through by someone more knowledgeable, would be greatly appreciated. Btl 06:45, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

infobox template

Thoughts on changing this to better represent boxing standards as is the case at BoxRec. Take a look at Template_talk:Infobox_Boxer and comment please. I don't want to start putting up the information only to have to change it later, and Weight, Style and the lack of Hometown really need to be rectified before any large strides can be made to upgrading the content on individual boxer's pages. Btl 07:31, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I previously put a hometown listing on the template only to have it erased by someone else, later. The problem was that all of the existing fighters that had the infobox in it were left with a {{{hometown}}} mark making many looking empty . Maybe phasing it in as optional first should do the trick. Maya Levy 05:56, 20 December 2006 (UTC)

Kimbo Slice

If any of you have came across this article, you'll know what a mess it is. I'd be grateful if anyone with an interest could take a look at the new heading I've added on the talk page today. Stu ^{’Bout ye!} 09:36, 21 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia Day Awards

Hello, all. It was initially my hope to try to have this done as part of Esperanza's proposal for an appreciation week to end on Wikipedia Day, January 15. However, several people have once again proposed the entirety of Esperanza for deletion, so that might not work. It was the intention of the Appreciation Week proposal to set aside a given time when the various individuals who have made significant, valuable contributions to the encyclopedia would be recognized and honored. I believe that, with some effort, this could still be done. My proposal is to, with luck, try to organize the various WikiProjects and other entities of wikipedia to take part in a larger celebrartion of its contributors to take place in January, probably beginning January 15, 2007. I have created yet another new subpage for myself (a weakness of mine, I'm afraid) at User talk:Badbilltucker/Appreciation Week where I would greatly appreciate any indications from the members of this project as to whether and how they might be willing and/or able to assist in recognizing the contributions of our editors. Thank you for your attention. Badbilltucker 19:01, 29 December 2006 (UTC)

Muhammad Ali nominated for U.S. Collaboration of the Week

Please vote for Muhammad Ali at Wikipedia:U.S. Wikipedians' notice board/USCOTW. Stevie is the man! ^{Talk • Work} 16:19, 17 January 2007 (UTC)

The Superfight

In 'The DVD' section it mentions that the only television appearance for this film was on ABC. I seem to recall seeing it on the CBS Late Late Movie (or similar name) around 1973. Anyone else?

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Seven1672 (talk • contribs) 00:51, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Female boxers

I know female boxing is not very popular, but I was pretty disappointed to see the lack of female boxers in Wikipedia. Its an issue that needs some contributing Maya Levy 20:04, 8 August 2007 (UTC)

User:Jaranda/Notabilty (sports)

Hi, I strongly recommed this project to give your notabilty guidelines for a new notabilty proposal that I'm creating on my userpage, once it is completed, I will move to wikipedia namespace for the community to decide. Thanks Jaranda ^{wat's sup} 23:02, 29 August 2007 (UTC)

Nigel Benn v Chris Eubank

I'm new to the project, I've just written this page could it please be included in any list of fights or boxing rivalries please, thanks. 1fletch 14:06, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

Its a pretty good page, I really like the addition of the infobox on the side, I redirected it to Nigel Benn versus Chris Eubank to make it convienant for people searching for it. Maya Levy talk 17:29, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Hometown listing on Template:Infobox_Boxer

I wanted to revisit the subject as seen on its talk page. Please revisit: Template talk:Infobox Boxer Maya Levy talk 02:51, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

Years in boxing

One of my big goals is to get boxing by years using both professional and amateur results/upcoming tournaments by year, similar to 2007 in basketball, and possibly using it as a guide. I also think accompanying a frozen version the list of current world boxing champions by the end of the year. It may need a big collaboration, although time is not on my side lately. Maya Levy talk 05:54, 5 October 2007 (UTC)

New template suggestion- Boxing fights template

Records before April 15, 1985 The War
Marvin Hagler Nickname Marvelous Record 60-2-2 (50 KO) Hometown Brockton, MA Recognition Undisputed Middleweight Champion WBA, WBC, & IBF Champion versus Thomas Hearns Nickname The Hitman Record 31-0 (26 KOs) Hometown Detroit, MI Title(s) on the line WBA, WBC, & IBF Championship Undisputed World Middleweight Championship

I have a suggestion for a new template, which I entitled boxing fights template. It is to show the fighters records at the time of the fight, which belt(s) are on the line and to hopefully clear which fighter is champion or the challenger, or incase of a unification fight which fighter has what belt. I am open to any suggestions, additions, or comments about it. I put an example on the side and already put it on the Hagler/Hearns page. Note: this may be used for MMA fights as well. Maya Levy talk 05:44, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

I like it... but if you're going to adapt it for MMA, what will go in the name area (MMA fights usually aren't titled). Also, I have an existing records template that can be used for boxers right out of the box, {{MMArecordbox}}. east.718 at 08:40, 10/17/2007 08:40, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

New template for boxers

Just letting everyone know that there's a new template attempting to unify a lot of the martial arts templates, and {{Infobox Boxer}} is one of them. Please leave comments at {{Infobox Martial artist}}. Thanks! east.718 at 13:12, 24 October 2007 (UTC).

Orthodox stance

Guys the is a discussion going on the Talk:Orthodox stance about hte potential merger of the Orthodox stance and Orthodox (boxing) articles. Please can I have your thoughts. regards--Vintagekits 21:51, 28 October 2007 (UTC)

WBO

The WBO isn't recognised by IBHOF? I read articles of the major boxing organizations. It appears that only the WBA, WBC and IBF are being credited. FoxLad 22:43, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

No Jimmy Lennon Jr

I saw an article about his father, but there is surprisingly no articles about Jimmy Lennon Jr. Maya Levy talk 00:17, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Created article of Fight Promoter University

thanks for any help Armyguy11 (talk) 07:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Created article of Baby Arizmendi

Do I become a member of WikiProjectBoxing now that I have helped, with the recreattion of Baby Arizmendi? Toolazy21 (talk) 16:38, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Phil Martin

Hi. A head up that an article on Phil Martin, a British professional light-heavyweight boxer of the 1970s is up for AfD. The article is badly in need of a rewrite too. --Malcolmxl5 (talk) 00:11, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Ricky Hatton

I reverted a heap of IP vandalism there today while investigating an unrelated situation, found some additional changes that have been made, but needs a subject expert to determine whether they are fixing mistakes or introducing errors (my expertise is Australian geography and politics, not boxing :P) so if someone could look at the diff I presented on the Talk:Ricky Hatton talk page, that would be great. If semi protection is needed drop a note on my talk page. Orderinchaos 13:08, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Question

Who is the project leader for WikiProject Boxing? I am interested in creating an article on a fight trilogy.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 19:37, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

There is no leader, just members. If you got the citations? go forth and create. GoodDay (talk) 21:24, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

I wanted to assume leadership at one time but couldn't due to my senior year of college. :( Maya Levy talk 14:56, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

• O.K. then. I am interested in creating an article on the Bowe vs. Holyfield trilogy. Should I go ahead and run with that or should I create seperate article for each fight?--Jedi Kasra (talk) 06:30, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

It's your choice. GoodDay (talk) 16:20, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

• O.K. How do I create a sub-page that links to my page, so that I can work on it, for example if you or another user can tell me how to do it, I'll be calling it, "User:Jedi Kasra/Project Real Deal vs. Big Daddy". Any cooperation would be appreciated.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 20:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

What you want is a Sandbox. -- GoodDay (talk) 23:49, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

• O.K. I have created a sub-page entitled User:Jedi Kasra/Project "Real Deal vs. Big Daddy I-III". If anyone would like to participate please leave me a message on my talk page. Reliable sources, free images, etc. are needed. If I put something on there that is not correct, feel free to correct it, then tell me.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 05:02, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Help request: GA backlog

Hello. There has been a large backlog at the Good Article Nominations page for a while, and some articles wait up to 50 days for a review. Since most of my editing is in the Sports and Recreation category, that is the area that I am currently focusing on. To try to cut down on the backlog, I'm approaching projects with the request that members from that project review two specific articles over the next week. My request to WikiProject Boxing is to try to find time to review Skip Holtz and Anfield. If these are already reviewed by someone else or you have time for another review (or you'd rather review something else altogether), it would be great if you could help out with another article. Of course, this is purely voluntary. If you could help, though, it would help out a lot and be greatly appreciated. The basic instructions for reviewing articles is found at WP:GAN and the criteria is found at WP:WIAGA. I recently began reviewing articles, and I've found it fairly enjoyable and I've learned a lot about how to write high quality articles. Best wishes, GaryColemanFan (talk) 17:42, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Infoboxes.

I recently discovered on José Luis Ramírez page that there was no information box there, so I went and added it to his article. I just wanna ask, do all Boxers past and present need these on their article? Dan the Man1983 (talk) 22:39, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think they need to as such, they're just a way of visually presenting the information which is easier on the eye - I certainly add them to articles I come across without them... Jimbo^[online] 22:39, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Identity of IBO Middleweight Champion

Who currently holds this title? - Raymond Joval or Daniel Geale. -- GoodDay (talk) 19:12, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

Geale [2] -- Jimbo^[online] 21:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Mike Tyson

Does anyone know where Mike Tyson was residing the time of the Lennox Lewis vs. Mike Tyson fight on June 8, 2002? --Jimbo^[online] 19:36, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Ricky Hatton

Can some of you guys help to keep an eye on the Ricky Hatton article? It's a frequent target for vandalism and is in need of some verification. Thanks, --Jza84 |  Talk  12:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Hi, I've got my eye on the article too. I nominated it for semi-protection in order to stop the IP abuse. --Jimbo^[online] 12:45, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Michael Gomez

I am aiming to nominate this article for GA and to be a FA on 21 June. If you can suggest any improvements to the article please let me know.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:45, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 975 articles are assigned to this project, of which 189, or 19.4%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. More than 150 projects and work groups have already subscribed, and adding a subscription for yours is easy - just place a template on your project page.

If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page; I'm not watching this page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 17:09, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

List of male boxers

Guys I've nominated the above article for deletion, simpe because in my opiion its of no real use, its too big and the category systems does pretty much the same job (except better!) - to have your say one way or the other go here. regards --Vintagekits (talk) 15:10, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Clinton Woods

Hi, I have cleaned up this article could you have a look and see what you think. Thanks Notjamesbond —Preceding unsigned comment added by Notjamesbond (talk • contribs) 09:23, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistancies

Hiya Project members. There's some Boxing bio articles not coordinating with the List of champions articles. For example, what's Joe Calzaghe's status in the super-middleweight division? GoodDay (talk) 17:27, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Hi, he's given up all his belts including the WBO and is now only the Ring Magazine champion although if he's not going to fight at super middle anymore I can't see how he can still lay claim to that one. Notjamesbond (talk) 19:36, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Undefeated boxers

After watching the Calzaghe fight the other night I got to thinking, how many other boxers have gone undefeated throughout their pro careers? My knowledge of boxing isn't that extensive, and the only other I could think of was Rocky Marciano. Are there any more? If there are what do people think to the idea of creating a list or category on Wikipedia which allows easy navigation between said fighters? I await your feedback guys. Simon KHFC (talk) 01:12, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Joe Mesi? He never made it past #1 Contender but he retired undefeated. Well, if you don't count his loss for New York State Senate this year.--CastAStone/^{/₵₳$↑₳₴₮ʘ№€} 05:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Champions? Jack McAuliffe (officially), Marciano, Ji Won Kim, Ricardo Lopez, Sven Ottke and *Floyd Mayweather, Jr. with Iván Calderón looking like the next probable contender. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Champions only I think, many people retire after a few fights being undefeated including a friend of mine Robbie Murray. But a champion that was undefeated was Terry Marsh.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:11, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

British heavyweight boxing champion in period 30 April 1926 - 16 November 1931

I noticed the List of British heavyweight boxing champions lacks information regarding who hold the title in the period between 30 April 1926 and 16 November 1931. Why this information was omitted and what's the story behind it? I know some rumors about boxing champion in the year 1928 who isn’t on the list, but maybe you could provide me with reliable information about what happened. Thanks --Jancsi03 (talk) 15:01, 28 November 2008 (UTC)

Overwhelming vandalisms of Nikolai Valuev & Evander Holyfield

Are there any Project members, brave enough to sort those articles out? GoodDay (talk) 00:01, 21 December 2008 (UTC)

Merge proposal

I am informing this project that I have suggested merging supercard, undercard, and main event into card (sports) because some/all of those articles may be used by you all. The conversation is taking place at Talk:Card (sports). Nikki♥311 01:39, 14 January 2009 (UTC)

Nationalities

Caribbean H.Q. ordered a discussion about the flags that should be used in display for the boxers. I think we should strictly follow BoxRec for the nationalities. claudevsq (talk) 04:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Its more of a suggestion, adminship has never made it into my head ;-) But we certainly need to establish a consensus to kill the edit warring. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:38, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Well I am glad we are going to have a calm and rational discussion about it because I and others have been trying to bottom out this issue for a long time. To get some background please see this, this and this conversation.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:39, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

I think Boxrec is excellent to a point but it is not entirely accurate with regard to national association. A lot of boxers are born in one country but are based in another and therefore associate with both. One example of where following Boxrec could cause problems is in the case of John Duddy who was born in Northern Ireland (and so shows the flag of the UK) yet he is based in the USA and strongly associates himself with Ireland so much so that even Boxing News the trade magazine don't include him within their British ratings. Another example would be Howard Eastman who was born in Guyana and lives in the UK, he shows the flag of the UK but he is the current Guyanese champion, he therefore associates with both. Edit warring is highly frustrating but I think editors need to show restraint and reason when warring over nationality there is after all no reason why a number of flags can't be used on boxer profiles. Notjamesbond (talk) 11:31, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

• Point of order - before I lay out my extensive thoughts on this issue I we need to raise this point or this discussion is pretty redundant. So, if Claude thinks "we should strictly follow BoxRec for the nationalities" can you please explain clearly what BoxRec's criteria is for designating nationality. --Vintagekits (talk) 12:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but I think only BoxRec could answer this question... I may be a member of the Ring Rating's advisory panel, but I don't know how BoxRec works... I think we should rather use the Great Britain flag instead of the english one etc. But that's my point of view, let's hear from others, too... claudevsq (talk) 13:26, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Well if you cant tell us what rational BoxRec use then you hardly expect us to run with that.

The owner of BoxRec, John Sheppard, is notoriously anti Irish and is allegedly a memeber of the BNP. He lists boxers nationality anyway he decides and has made that very clear.

For example Francesco Pianeta, both his parents are Italian, they emigrated to Germany when he was six, he grew up and still lives in Germany. He holds his Italian roots close to him for those obvious reasons, and he is listed as Italian. Michael Gomez who was born and brought up in Ireland until the age of nine, they emigrated to Britain when he was nine, he has lived there ever since. He holds his Irish roots close to him for those obvious reasons, and he is listed as British.

Then we have the John Duddy situation, which is broader really issue than just Duddy and really is mirrored for all Irish boxers from Northern Ireland. Duddy is born and brought up Derry, Northern Ireland. People from the north have always been entitle to and Irish (RoI) passport from the creation of the country under Articles 2 and 3 of its constitution, this was then amended by agreement under the Good Friday Agreement (GFA) when both the British's and Irish governments agreed that people from Northern Ireland's nationality would be treated differently to England, Wales and Scotland in that they could be recognised as British, Irish or both - and hold passports to that effect. Duddy holds an Irish passport - this has been confirmed to Boxrec by Team Duddy. Duddy is listed as British.

Its an issue of consistency in the record keeping. All boxers should be treated equally.

The current Boxrec listings seem inconsistent at times:

• Arthur Abraham - Listed as German (Born in Armenia, took German citizenship, carries German passport)
• Khoren Gevor - Listed as Armenian (Born in Armenia, lives in Germany, carries German passport)
• Alexander Abraham - Listed as Armenian (Born in Armenia, lives in Germany, carries Armenian passport)
• Lennox Lewis - Listed as British (has dual Canadian/British citizenship) - Interestingly, Lewis also learned boxing in Canada from the age of 12 - and the country where a boxer learned to box is one of the criteria attributed to Boxrec for listing 'nationality'.
• John Duddy - Listed as British (carries Irish passport)
• Oleg Maskaev - Listed as Russian (Born in Kazakhstan, gained US citizenship in 2004, carries US/Russian passports)
• Sinan Samil Sam - Listed as Turkish (Born and raised in Germany, lives in Germany)
• Luan Krasniqi - Listed as German (Born in Kosovo, lives in Germany)
• Marco Huck - Listed As German (Born in Serbia/Montenegro, lived in Germany from the age of 9)

I could go one but you get the point.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:42, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

After reading the discussion and related threads I would say that Boxrec should be used as a guide to nationality only but should not be treated as an authoritative source in all cases. The examples highlighted above are interesting and only serve to highlight to me the need for the recognition of dual nationality on boxer profiles. Arthur Abraham is a classic case, as I see it, he should be listed alongside the flags of both Armenia and Germany. Having just the one nationality seems, at times, to be too simplistic.

Where this discussion seems to divide most opinion is in regard to how boxers from Northern Ireland should be defined! There are simply no easy solutions when discussing this and each boxer in my view should be treated on their own merits. I'll give a few examples of what I mean:

-John Duddy - Born in Northern Ireland, but refers to himself as Irish. As a professional he has never competed for the British title (and I'm sure he would have won it) and has never competed in mainland Britain. The Irish Tri-colour seems the most appropriate flag.

-Brian Magee - Born in Northern Ireland and competed as an amateur for Ireland. Magee has fought most of his career in the UK and is the current British title holder. He has also challenged for two previous British titles as well as the commonwealth. As the current British champion he seems to associate himself with both countries and so both flags seems appropriate.

-Tyson Fury - Interesting one this! Tyson was born in Manchester yet claims Irish ancestry via his grandparents. When he failed to be picked as the UK's representative for the Olympics he tried to gain qualification via his Irish ancestry. This route failed however when he was unable to provide documented evidence as to his claim. For Tyson the Union Flag seems to be most appropriate. In saying that however, he himself has walked into the ring for his last two fights wearing both the Union Flag and the Irish Tri-Colour. This act itself has proved how tricky national identification can be because he clearly associates himself with both flags and so I would also have no objection to seeing the two flags sitting side by side on his profile. Notjamesbond (talk) 14:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, I think we are getting to the crux of the matter and you have hit the nail of the head NJB and you have outlined many of thw issues that could cause dispute. However, I would say that merely fighting for a British title as a pro wouldnt necessarily mean that a boxer considers themselves British. Boxing is much more popular in the "nationalist" community, for a variety of reasons. And the nationialist community general consider themselves Irish and are entitled to an Irish passport automatically - for example Martin Rogan, Paul McCloskey and Eamonn Magee all of whom clearly identify as Irish but have fought for a British or Commonwealth title in order to progress their career.

Also just because Magee (Brian) fought in Britiain wouldnt suggest that he considers himself British either, Vinny Feeney and Francie Barrett fought nearly all their fights in the UK but were Irish - the Irish professional game has only really matured in the last four or five years and before that most boxers had to go to Britain or the US to progress their career. If you look at my Irish P4P list then of the 9 Ulster fighters only 1 would class themselves as British instead of Irish - that being Neil Sinclair.

As for the rest of the UK, I think we should go down "the Ring" magazines route and list boxers by Constituent country route - i.e. Joe Calzaghe as Welsh, Alex Arthur as Scottish and Kevin Mitchell as English.

And then we have the Puerto Rico sitiuation which is technically within the United States and I think they carry US passports but I wouldnt like to see them listed as American. CHQ can comment further on that.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, its a fair point about fighting for the British title in order to further a fighters career and I agree that, that in itself does not confer nationality. With regard to Puerto Rico I too do not think they should be listed as American because Puerto Rico is not a state within the Union but a self governing territory.

As for the British fighters I don't have a problem with them being listed under constituent flags but nor do I have a problem with the flag of the UK being used.

With regard to Northern Ireland how about just using the flag of Ulster to represent a boxer from within that region? the flag could then be combined with the flag of the country to whom the fighter associates, for example:

Neil Sinclair Ulster/United Kingdom

Brian Magee Ulster/Republic of Ireland

Just a thought but in this way we are clearly identifying the region of origin (Ulster) followed by the country of association (UK or Ireland) Notjamesbond (talk) 15:59, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

Have you ever read List of Northern Irish flags and all the edit wars regarding the ulster flags, or flags in general. I would just not use flags at all. See also the flag manual of style and current practice with (almost) all infoboxes. Garion96 (talk) 11:27, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Well the edit wars are over the Ulster Banner and not the Ulster Flag, but yes you have a point. Also the Ulster Flag does not legally have any basis and is more of a traditional flag then anything. Its a tough one.--Vintagekits (talk) 12:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, have just read the MOS:FLAG and this seems to answer all the questions particularly with regarding sporting persons and how they are identified Notjamesbond (talk) 09:14, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes you are right the Ulster flag should not be used.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Use of flags for non-sovereign states and nations

The exact definition of a "state", "nation" or "country" is often politically divisive and can result in debates over the choice of flag. For example, England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are referred to by the British government as "countries" within the United Kingdom [1]; the Canadian government recently recognised the Québécois as "a nation within a united Canada";[2] and the United States recognizes many Native American tribal groupings as semi-independent "nations". Some people may feel stronger identification with such entities than with the wider state of which they are a citizen, and editors sometimes choose, for example, to use an English flag rather than a British one. Such choices can cause debates, or can sometimes mislead if the editor's own political bias is the motivation for the choice, and does not represent the views of the article subject.

In general, if a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state (e.g. the United States of America or Canada) not of a subnational entity, even if that entity is sometimes considered a "nation" or "country" in its own right. This is partly for the sake of consistency across Wikipedia, but also because a person's legal citizenship is verifiable, whereas "nationality" within a country can be porous, indeterminate and shifting. An English person's passport describes them as a "British citizen", for example, not "English"; being English is a matter of self-identification, not a verifiable legality in most cases. Many editors, however, feel that the UK's subnations in particular are an exception, most especially in sporting contexts, and disputes are likely to arise if this sovereign state maxim is enforced in articles on subnational British topics. (See: MOS:FLAG. claudevsq (talk) 19:44, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The MOS just outlines the issue we are discussing here. I'm not sure what the point is that you are making.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Much like football each of the individual constituant countries of the UK compete on an individual basis and The Ring magazine also splits the countries up. Hence my reasoning for spliting those into individual countries - likewise with Puerto Rico, it competes separately from the US so should be acknowledges as such. The bit where is becomes complex is the situation for boxers from Northern Ireland.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:23, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

In general, if a flag is felt to be necessary, it should be that of the sovereign state (e.g. the United States of America or Canada) not of a subnational entity, even if that entity is sometimes considered a "nation" or "country" in its own right. This is partly for the sake of consistency across Wikipedia, but also because a person's legal citizenship is verifiable, whereas "nationality" within a country can be porous, indeterminate and shifting. An English person's passport describes them as a "British citizen", for example, not "English"; being English is a matter of self-identification, not a verifiable legality in most cases. This is what I meant when saying that we should use the same flags as BoxRec to avoid further discussions. I know that Miss Maya Levy once said that she also prefers to use the British flag instead of England etc. I don't know where she wrote it, but ask her if you want... claudevsq (talk) 14:20, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

If not, we should display two flags rather than exchanging them... claudevsq (talk) 14:22, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

I am very much against following BoxRec for the reasons outlined above.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:37, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

See another quote from the same manual of style "As with other biographical articles, flags are discouraged in sportspeople's individual infoboxes." So why not simply state the country names and ditch the flags all together. Garion96 (talk) 14:26, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

MOS states that using a flag in an infobox in this manner is an appropriate use of a flag. However, this discussion is mainly about what "nationality" to use - the flags thing is a side issue. Lets sort out the nationality thing first and then we can sort out the flags issues. One thing at a time I say.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:35, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually it doesn't say that but sure, I will wait till you sort the nationality issue first. :) See also Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom for a related essay. Garion96 (talk) 14:54, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

You're right, has that changed recently? Last time I read that page (properly) it said it could be used for nationality or team but not for place of birth or death.--Vintagekits (talk) 16:17, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

Under British law, Wales, England, Scotland and Northern Ireland are an equal union, sharing a common British nationality (see British nationality law). The terms "Britain" and "Great Britain" are often used to mean "the United Kingdom". A UK passport describes its holder as a "British citizen". See here: Wikipedia:Nationality of people from the United Kingdom claudevsq (talk) 11:40, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

Yes, we know that - and your point is?--Vintagekits (talk) 13:10, 22 January 2009 (UTC)

It's only a part of the whole discussion, but isn't it obvious? I just point out again that we should use the British flag instead of the flags of England, Wales and so on... claudevsq (talk) 02:04, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Talk:B. J. Flores

I have proposed to change the name of the article. There is a discussion on the talk page which I have linked. Please go and partake. regards--Vintagekits (talk) 16:24, 24 January 2009 (UTC)

Mike Tyson under GA review

Hello there, the above article, which falls under the auspices of this Wikiproject, has come under review as part of GA Sweeps and a number of problems have been identified and listed on the talk page. If these problems have not begun to be addressed by seven days from this notice, the article will be delisted from GA and will have to go through the WP:GAN process all over again to regain its status once improvements have been made. If you have any questions, please drop me a line.--Jackyd101 (talk) 00:27, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Antonio Margarito's suspension

Hey guys, today Margarito and his trainer were suspended by the California State Athletic Commission due to the "plastered wraps" incident. Now, I have been reverting a lot of "cheater/fraud" vandalism at Miguel Cotto and believe that the matter will extend itself to Kermit Cintron and Joshua Clottey as it progresses. It seems like the concept of karma is rebounding back at Margarito like a basketball. Just dropping the message here so you guys add those articles to your watchlists. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:37, 29 January 2009 (UTC)

Wladimir Klitschko

I don't know enough about boxing to know if 121.219.24.151 (talk · contribs · deleted contribs · logs · filter log · block user · block log)'s unsourced claim that Klitschko is "considered by some as the greatest heavyweight boxer of the modern era" has any merit, but I have been removing it and notified the IP about WP:V etc. He just readded it and I don't want to breach 3RR so could someone else help out? Thanks, --aktsu ^(t / c) 11:45, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

POV, I'm sure Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield and Lennox Lewis would have something to say about that. - Caribbean~H.Q. 04:42, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Boxrec.com

This article has been generally pretty shit! Only as far back as December the article had very little content. I then added some detail about the inaccuracies with regards the "nationality" field in the website, something which we have discussed on this page recently.

However, a certain editor by the name of JohnShep (the owner of the website) removed the content with the explanation "this section was removed and the editor banned months ago - it should not be in". I readded it and since then User:MKil has been removing it. He had used a number of excuses to try and remove this referenced material including "Removed what seems like blatant POV-pushing content that's pretty trivial" then "see talk page. The consensus among everyone but you is to remove this" then "You really think this trivial incident -- sourced with non-reliable sources -- deserves that much space" - none of which is true and then he said that too much space was given over to this issue. Whilst I agree with that statement, it is not a reason to remove the content it is a reason to add other material - something which User:MKil did not seem to be prepared to do.

So taking this into consideration I decided to improve and add to the article myself to give what could be percieved negative content more context, the end product is here. But even since this MKil has been removing the referenced material. Its starting to really piss me off and I dont want to get into a heated discussion with a guy that has never made a positive contribution to the article so I thought I would bring the issue here for your opinion on how to handle it.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:40, 22 February 2009 (UTC)

So instead of bring this up with me you bring it here? I thought it was customary if you had a problem with a user to discuss it with him/her. Or, at the very least, if you bring it before a third party that you have the decency to notify the person you are doing so.

I removed your content because it pushes your point of view and relies on sources that either don't prove what you say, don't exist, or aren't reliable. Let's begin:

1. In the past, you continued to use this "reference" that didn't lead anywhere: http://www.boxrec.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=66580 Boxing Record Archive :: View topic - John Duddy Mistake. I'm pretty sure deleting a non-existent reference is within Wiki's guidelines.

2. Using www.bernarddunne.net as a "source" is ridiculous. A fansite isn't a reliable source.

3. You use sources that do not support your claims:

3.a. "The Boxrec team changed the nationality of Irish boxer John Duddy to British on their boxing record database after it was initially listed as Irish." To back up that assertion, you posted a link to John Duddy's BoxRec record. The only thing this link proves is that Duddy is listed as British. It does not prove that he was initially listed as Irish. Nor does it get to the heart of the issue about whether Duddy is British or Irish.

3b."Inconsistancies included the listing of Armenian born brothers Arthur Abraham who is listed as German, whilst his brother Alexander Abraham is listed as Armenian, meanwhile Khoren Gevor who was born in Armenia, lives in Germany and carries German passport is listed as Armenian." To back up this assertion, you us the BoxRec records of Abraham and Gevor. All these references prove is what they are listed at today and where they were born. The implications you draw from these records is original research.

4. You use a discussion thread from the BoxRec forum as a source. Again, you need to see what constitutes a reliable source for Wikipedia.

Because of your failure to follow Wiki guidelines, I removed your insertions. In their place, I wrote "Some users have also raised issues with how certain boxers' nationality is represented on the site. For instance, there is a dispute over whether John Duddy, who is from Northern Ireland, should be listed as being from Ireland or the United Kingdom." It sums up the issue without using dubious sources or pushing a point-of-view that takes sides in the dispute. I'm pretty sure that deleting unreliable sources and using neutral point of view are preferable to what you were doing.MKil (talk) 15:55, 23 February 2009 (UTC)MKil

What do you mean "So instead of bring this up with me you bring it here?" - get a grip you idiot - you do not own the Boxrec article and I have discussed this with you, unless you have forgotten about this discussion. The problem is with your conduct on a boxing related article - hence the reason the issue was raised here.

1. When I added the reference you refer to the link was "live" - it is customary not to delete dead links but to replace them. If you had taken just a moment to try and replace it you could have done - LIKE I DID!

2. The article in bernarddunne.net might be on a Bernard Dunne fan site but that does not preclude it from being a reliable source. The article on the site is well written, factually correct, accurate and lists the author of the article.

3a. I used John Duddy's BoxRec record as well as others to back up the material - NOT just the BoxRec article.

3b. If you are unhappy about the level of referencing you do not remove the content of the article, you tag it and outline EXACTLY what the issue is on the article talk page. Deletion of referenced material on wiki is a big no no and likely to piss people off (like me!). Why not even go crazy and try add a references to the article yourself - imagine actually ADDING to an article and making it better instead of ignorantly deleting material you do not argee with!

4. I agree the content of forums it not normally acceptable. However, this forum is the official forum for the website which it is subject of the article and within that discussion is contributions from the website owner John Sheppard and the Clan Duddy matchmaker Jim Borzell. The reason forums are not normally admissable is because the contributors to discussions are not indentifiable - however this is not the case here and therefore under the verifiability guidelines is allowable.

Even today you have continued with your moronic editing by removing even more referenced material. When asked to justify your edits you state that If I think information is outdated, I can delete it. I don't have to get a reference to prove it. --Vintagekits (talk) 19:46, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

You really think that calling names is a good way to find consensus?

You obviously have a bias here. You have been banned from editing a variety of material that deals with Northern Ireland. The Duddy article touches on that subject and your conduct in using clearly biased, unreliable material to back up your point of view shows your weaknesses in this area.

For instance, you take sides in your insertion. Saying that John Duddy is an "Irish" boxer. The dispute on BoxRec is about that very point. Your insertion is clearly meant to condemn BoxRec for it stance on it. And your section about inconsistencies in the nationality field of BoxRec records also shows your biases. Your sources don't support the opinion you give in this section.

Removing properly referenced material may be a big no-no here. You have been blocked a variety of times, so perhaps you know better than I do what isn't allowed here. However, when your "references" are from fansites and forums (defend them all you want, they don't meet the criteria in my view) and when you are clearly using them as a pretext to promote an agenda (one that has caused you trouble elsewhere on the site), I don't think I did anything wrong here.

And when referenced material is out of date it's OK to remove it.

In the end, do you really think this compromise insertion by me: "Some users have also raised issues with how certain boxers' nationality is represented on the site. For instance, there is a dispute over whether John Duddy, who is from Northern Ireland, should be listed as being from Ireland or the United Kingdom" is flawed?MKil (talk) 19:59, 23 February 2009 (UTC)MKil

Avoiding the issue eh?? Focusing on my history editing other articles! Talk about a poor comeback - I am not allowed edit articles with regards the War in Ireland - now unless John Duddy is in the IRA then you are deliberately avoiding the points made by dragging this shit up!

Duddy is an Irish boxer - every sources states that he is Irish with the exception of BoxRec - hence the reason this is an issue!

"And when referenced material is out of date it's OK to remove it." - wikipedia doesnt just take YOUR word for it - you have to provide evidence.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:11, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Coordinators' working group

Hi! I'd like to draw your attention to the new WikiProject coordinators' working group, an effort to bring both official and unofficial WikiProject coordinators together so that the projects can more easily develop consensus and collaborate. This group has been created after discussion regarding possible changes to the A-Class review system, and that may be one of the first things discussed by interested coordinators.

All designated project coordinators are invited to join this working group. If your project hasn't formally designated any editors as coordinators, but you are someone who regularly deals with coordination tasks in the project, please feel free to join as well. — Delievered by §hepBot (Disable) on behalf of the WikiProject coordinators' working group at 04:59, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

Larry Byrd

I'm under the impression that this article might be a hoax. The creator cites Boxrec, yet both of the "Larry Byrds" in there have been defeated and neither boasts a 12-fight knockout streak. One is 4-6 and the other is 20-5. I'm just bringing it up here before doing something rash by deleting it. - Caribbean~H.Q. 03:49, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

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I subscribed the project to the alerts.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 18:52, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Flag icons for UK boxers

Where it is appropriate to use flag icons (ex. List of current world boxing champions), should the UK flag be used or the flags of the constituent countries (i.e. England, Scotland, etc.)? The above discussion on Nationalities doesn't seem to have reached any conclusions.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:50, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Since no one seems to have an opinion on this I'll put one forward: Never use both the UK flag and the flag of a constituent country.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 21:04, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

flag of a constituent countries are used for football players - why not boxers?--Vintagekits (talk) 21:22, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

This is getting old, due to the lack of consensus, I propose that we use the same format used for the Olympics. - Caribbean~H.Q. 07:17, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

UK football is organised by the constituent countries each having their own governing body, English FA, Scots, Welsh and NI. However boxing is organised under Britain as a whole by the British Board of Control, therefore I suggest it would be more sensible to use the British flag 78.148.36.236 (talk) 00:15, 31 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually for amatuer boxing the different countries within the UK have their own association and compete as individual nations. It is only pro boxing that has a British board of control - however, this is split up into regions and boxers can fight for the individual English, Scottish and Welsh titles.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:02, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I agree, we should be 'wikiconsistent' across all sports - amateur boxers should have English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish flags; Pro boxers should have British or Irish flags 78.144.37.201 (talk) 01:46, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I think it gets a bit confusing when UK fighters are considered more than one of the nationality. (ie. English and Welsh) I personally think limiting it to the UK makes it simpler. Maya Levy talk 13:14, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Joe Louis

I've updated the Joe Louis article and listed it for peer review. Any comments would be helpful. It was B-Class when I started, and I'm hoping it's close to FA-Class now. BillTunell (talk) 19:44, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Flag in nationality section of infobox

User: Daicaregos has brought it to my attention that many boxers have their respective flags in the infobox next to "nationality". This seems to contradict general usage per MOS:FLAG, namely, the flags are merely decorative and overly emphasise the nationality. This draws more attention to nationality than other information in the box (e.g. weight, full name, stance, birthdate etc). What is the project's general usage rules for flags?

Some examples of usage are: Steve Bendall, Robert Lloyd-Taylor, Ted "Kid" Lewis, Clinton McKenzie, Terry Marsh (boxer), Alan Minter, David Price (boxer). Sillyfolkboy (talk) (edits) 14:40, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think there has been any consensus on the use of flags.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 22:09, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Benjamin Flores

Hi, apologies if people here already know about this, but this sadly recently-deceased boxer currently has an empty article. I'm not familiar enough with the subject or boxing articles in general to start anything, but maybe someone here would like to have a go, if he's notable enough etc. I'm also assuming there's no connection to BJ Flores. Thanks. Bretonbanquet (talk) 08:26, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I've found out a little about the guy, and I started a stub article. The confusion with BJ Flores is a bit unfortunate, so I've tried to clarify it. Hopefully someone can build it up a bit. Bretonbanquet (talk) 09:05, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this Benjamin is actually notable enough to substain an article. Besides his brief reign as WBC Continental Americas titleholder, his only previous highlight was being considered for a ShoBox show, but that never came to fruition. - Caribbean~H.Q. 10:54, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

That's what I was slightly worried about - I'm not familiar enough with how notability is established in the boxing wiki, so it may be that the article gets prodded. But at least for now it serves to differentiate between the two Flores boxers, among what was a fair bit of confusion for a while. Bretonbanquet (talk) 18:02, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

More Boxing Footers?

I'm seeing an ever growing amount of footers on wikipedia, why not start one or two on boxing??

Just an example of the undisputed champions. Maya Levy talk 13:57, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

GA Sweeps invitation

This message is being sent to WikiProjects with GAs under their scope. Since August 2007, WikiProject Good Articles has been participating in GA sweeps. The process helps to ensure that articles that have passed a nomination before that date meet the GA criteria. After nearly two years, the running total has just passed the 50% mark. In order to expediate the reviewing, several changes have been made to the process. A new worklist has been created, detailing which articles are left to review. Instead of reviewing by topic, editors can consider picking and choosing whichever articles they are interested in.

We are always looking for new members to assist with reviewing the remaining articles, and since this project has GAs under its scope, it would be beneficial if any of its members could review a few articles (perhaps your project's articles). Your project's members are likely to be more knowledgeable about your topic GAs then an outside reviewer. As a result, reviewing your project's articles would improve the quality of the review in ensuring that the article meets your project's concerns on sourcing, content, and guidelines. However, members can also review any other article in the worklist to ensure it meets the GA criteria.

If any members are interested, please visit the GA sweeps page for further details and instructions in initiating a review. If you'd like to join the process, please add your name to the running total page. In addition, for every member that reviews 100 articles from the worklist or has a significant impact on the process, s/he will get an award when they reach that threshold. With ~1,300 articles left to review, we would appreciate any editors that could contribute in helping to uphold the quality of GAs. If you have any questions about the process, reviewing, or need help with a particular article, please contact me or OhanaUnited and we'll be happy to help. --Happy editing! Nehrams2020 (talk • contrib) 22:37, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Rocky Balboa (film) under GA reassessment

Rocky Balboa (film) has been nominated for a good article reassessment. Please leave your comments and help us to return the article to good article quality. If concerns are not addressed during the review period, the good article status will be removed from the article. Reviewers' concerns are here. Wizardman 16:35, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Are there enough articles on this subject to justify an Outline of boxing?

Here's a discussion about subject development you might find interesting.

The Transhumanist 23:43, 28 July 2009 (UTC)

GAN backlog reduction - Sports and recreation

As you may know, we currently have 400 good article nominations, with a large number of them being in the sports and recreation section. As such, the waiting time for this is especially long, much longer than it should be. As a result of this, I am asking each sports-related WikiProject to review two or three of these nominations. If this is abided by, then the backlog should be cleared quite quickly. Some projects nominate a lot but don't review, or vice-versa, and following this should help to provide a balance and make the waiting time much smaller so that our articles can actually get reviewed! Wizardman 23:39, 5 September 2009 (UTC)

Australia Boxers

I am able to start wikipedia pages about Australian Boxers. In particularly Daniel Ammann. I know him personally and his trainer. Adamdaley (talk) 09:43, 19 September 2009 (UTC)

Cruiserweight

I've just noticed that Cruiserweight has been moved to Cruiserweight boxing. Should boxing be in brackets (i.e. Cruiserweight (boxing)) as it is talking about a weight class rather than a general article that is specifically talking just about boxing at cruiserweight level? --Jimbo^[online] 22:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Audley Harrison - nickname issue.

Could I please have some input with regards this issue. I have inputted a number of "alternative" nicknames for Audley in his article but this have been removed because they are degoratory". I do not think that this is a good enough reason to removed sourced information but others may disagree. Please can I have you input on the talk page.--Vintagekits (talk) 13:36, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Further discussion here Wikipedia:Biographies_of_living_persons/Noticeboard#Audley_Harrison.--Vintagekits (talk) 14:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'd favour using 2 nicknames in Boxer's Infoboxes (a positive & negative). We might also considering scrapping 'nicknames' in the Infobox altogether. GoodDay (talk) 22:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Delete nicknames from bio Infoboxes

In relation to the discussion at Audley Harrison. It's my opinon, that this WikiProject consider 'deleting' the nickname(s) section from the Infoboxes. GoodDay (talk) 15:14, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely! claudevsq (talk) 15:35, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, I wouldnt agree with removing nicknames from the info boxes. The nickname of a boxer is a central piece of information - many boxers are synonymous with there nicknames and are even recognisable be there nicknames alone. e.g.

Butterbean (Eric Esch), "Marvelous" Marvin Hagler, "Prince" Naseem Hamed, "Sugar" Ray Leonard, "Cinderella Man" (James Braddock), Ray “Boom Boom” Mancini, Hector “Macho” Camacho, Kid "Kid" Lewis, Ronald "Winky" Wright etc etc etc.

Even this year Olympian Joe Murray went public looking for a nickname before he went pro. It's a crucial piece of information. There is no getting away from that and they should not be removed.

So we get on to issue of what and how many nicknames to use.

My opinion is to use all nicknames that are commonly used and are backed up by rock solid sources. Even if the boxer doesnt like his nickname that doesnt mean that we pander to their issues - at wikipedia we reflect reality - mulitple boxers didnt like the nickname that was given them and were furious that fans, journalists and promoters use a nickname that they did not choose themselves. Thats tough luck Wikipedia_is_not_censored.

For example Jimmy McLarnin has multiple nicknames - he was resentful of some e.g. "the Jew Killer" but it was a common nickname given to him because he beat a lot of Jewish fighters - much like Manny Pacquiao and his "mexicutioner" nickname. That bring us onto major flop Audley Harrison. His team choose "A-Force" as his nickname but the majority of the fans rejected it and use other nicknames to describe him with the most common being "Fraudly" used in multiple sources such asSue Mott at The Telegraph, The Daily Mail, The Guardian, The Telegraph again, The Independent, SKY Sports, The Times Eastside Boxing.

Finally, I say use all nicknames that are commonly used as long as they are backed up by solid soucres - whether the boxcer like it themselves or not.--Vintagekits (talk) 15:43, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment, I'm not sure there needs to be a hard-and-fast rule on this issue. In cases where a fighter's nickname is obscure, there's a good argument to be made that it doesn't belong in the infobox. On the other hand, some boxers, e.g., Ray "Boom Boom" Mancini, were widely known by their nicknames. In this case, it seems appropriate to include the nickname in the infobox. --twelsht (talk) 17:38, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

Oppose. Its the central piece of information and tradition on many boxers going all the way back to bareknuckle times. I agree the names should be limited only the most common ones. If theres an issue with a name then add a reference.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 19:24, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, and not only because it is notable and factual information that is essential to telling the entire story about a fighter, but it also sets a precedent for removing nicknames in other sports and fields of profession where they are essential pieces of information. In football(soccer) infoboxes most international club's nicknames are not official but are listed in the infoboxes to better describe the teams. In MMA most fighters have nicknames. Also rapper's infoboxes contain thier nicknames since many are better known by handles than by birth names. As Twelsht said, many fighters were better known by thier nicknames than by thier given names. Simply put, it sets a bad precedent. Omitting information about a person, especially information that might be for some essential to identifying them is never good. Making it difficult to find that information is never good. The purpose of this project is primarily to be informative and taking the nicknames away from a portion of the articles that makes it visible only makes these articles less informative and less accurate.Unak78 (talk) 20:04, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• No, I don't think that this is a good idea. For example, in Puerto Rico Félix Trinidad is almost exclusively known as "Tito" Trinidad, while a more recent example would be "Juanma" López for Juan Manuel López. There are some pretty ridiculous nicnames out there (ever heard of "El Que Suda Más Sangra Menos" Ricardo "Head Hunter" Martínez? Yeah, that is actually a double nickname) but there are many notable boxers that are widely known by them. - Caribbean~H.Q. 21:57, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose I have no problem with nicknames as these are often used when describing boxers. However as it's an infobox, I feel that the only nickname entered should be one which the boxer themselves have come up with.Notjamesbond (talk) 22:21, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, nicknames, especially among boxers, often become part of the "Nombre de Guerra" of the individual. Nicknames become so associated with the "character" of the person that sometimes, we who follow the sport, could not relate to the boxer without it. However, I believe that only the nickname most "commonly" used by the boxer in his "character" be posted in the infobox and in case that the boxer uses more then one nickname, then there should be a limit of no more then two nicknames in the infobox. Tony the Marine (talk) 22:37, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment Boxers are mostly nicknamed for their qualities and capabilities. Therefore, they are worth mentioning in boxer articles. FoxLad (talk) 23:09, 16 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment, In my opinion, if the nicknames are not included in the infoboxes - it should be stated somewhere in the article of that person. As someone has already brought up that many professional sports people and public figures (in whatever it maybe as their chosen profession) their full names, name changes and/or translations should be included. Adamdaley (talk) 06:04, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Strongly oppose, they are a fundemental part of the identity of the sport itself. The nickname is invariably referred to in the pre-fight build up, publicity material and during the ring intro. often outweighing the first and last names of the participants. This is begining to look like WP:Snow. Leaky Caldron 11:08, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, nicknames are a critical piece of information, up there with height, weight, and place of birth. Think that everyone has already posted all of the great supporting evidence for including. Jackboogie (talk) 16:59, 17 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, Nicknames are a critical piece of information as Jackboogie. Alot of boxers are known by thier nicknames. If you want to get rid of nicknames you might as well get rid of height, weight , and place of birth because people remember nicknnames more so than height, wieght, and place of birth. The K.O. King (talk) 12:52, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose, most people know Ronald Wright as "Winky". I think aliases, stage names, and the like should be included in the infobox.--Jedi Kasra (talk) 16:40, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose,Why remove something that gives valid information, and for reference its not really a nickname its a "alias", you wouldn't take away someones identity so why take away their "alias" i Strongly oppose this Ϛŧēvěŋ^talk 16:49, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I guess we can consider this proposal KO'd. Wowsers, Marvis Frazier did better against Mike Tyson. -- GoodDay (talk) 00:02, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

Limited to 2-nicknames in Infobox; a favourable & non-favourable

An example would be 'Air Force' & 'Air Farce' at Audley Harrison. -- GoodDay (talk) 15:13, 19 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment, hat is favourable or unfavourable is completely POV. At to limit the number of nicknames to just two is horrible contrived. If a boxer has multiple common nicknames (be they favourable or non-favourable) then they should be included as long as it is sourced. Which of the Tyson nicknames would you remove or keep? "Iron Mike", "The Baddest Man on the Planet" or "Kid Dynamite"? what about Pacquiao? "Pac-Man", "Manny", "the Pride of the Philippines" or "The Mexicutioner", or Ricky Hatton - The Hitman, the Manchester Mexican, the Pride of Hyde or Ricky Fatton? - I could go on. I suppose for those reasons I would say oppose.

'Tis the best I could propose. GoodDay (talk) 20:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

No problem mate - this is only my opinion and anyway its best we get all these issues out of the way so that we know what the community thinks.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:44, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. Too arbitrary and selective. Verifiable, sourced names by which a boxer is well known should be included. Leaky Caldron 20:30, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Boxers record

I feel it is unecessary to have a fighters full record displayed within their wikipedia article - especially as it is little more than an exact replication of their BoxRec record page - for which we have a link. Caribean HQ made this edit to remove it from the Cotto article. I agree with this but others dont. I would suggest that if we were to have a list it should be notable fights (although that is subjective) like first fights, first title challenge, grudge matches etc. Opinions?--Vintagekits (talk) 20:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Is there a Wikipedia article for these boxer records? GoodDay (talk) 20:24, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you mean mate.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:28, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

BoxRec, is that a website or a Wikipedia article? GoodDay (talk) 20:32, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

GoodDay - you suprise me! you never heard of BoxRec?--Vintagekits (talk) 20:35, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Nope. GoodDay (talk) 20:36, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Well its a project that strives to provide the records and fight details for each fight in history during the gloved era.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Not sure how I missed that. GoodDay (talk) 20:46, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Me too - there is a link to is on pretty much every fighters page - I am on it at least 20 times a day.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:48, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Took a peek at it. I'll have no problem updating my userpage now, with the current Heavyweight to Welterweight champs. Thanks for pointing it out to me. GoodDay (talk) 20:52, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Would it be possible to collapse them? GoodDay (talk) 20:37, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Possibly.--Vintagekits (talk) 20:42, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

I also wonder why some boxer articles have a complete list of their fights. Anyway, I usually don't mind as adding things like that are probably considered optional for certain users. But I guess some editors have a point to indicate that such stuff are redundant. FoxLad (talk) 13:48, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

The more info, the better. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

(Unindent) Actually, I thought that my removal of that list was straight-forward. I certainly wasn't expecting it to give so much trouble. Anyway, my point is basically that we don't need to hiccup the minor fights that Boxrec is already publishing. Its fair to assume that the prose of an article should already provide a summary of the boxer's notable fights (Cotto's certainly does) which is why these mini-lists seem like nothing more than WP:LISTCRUFT. Then again, those are only my 2¢. - Caribbean~H.Q. 00:57, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree, it should be a list of the notable fights - which I think would be more informative to a passing reader. If you look at the JCCJ article - the majority of the article is taken up by a list of the fights - thats not healthy for the article.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:36, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

Howabout keeping the entire professional record, but collapse it? GoodDay (talk) 14:30, 25 October 2009 (UTC)

GD, do you want to go ahead and create an example of a collapsable boxers record and provide it as an example. If I works out fine then I have no problem in supporting it.--Vintagekits (talk) 09:08, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't how to set them up, but there's examples of them on MLB & NHL team articles. GoodDay (talk) 14:40, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

That still seems kind of redundant, with the prose and all. But, whatever. - Caribbean~H.Q. 01:45, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

heres one i created, maybe that might help. if you guys like it. Jack Dempsey's record example.Marty Rockatansky (talk) 09:18, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Boxing record

66 Wins (51 T(KO)'s, 14 decisions , 1 disqualification), 6 Losses (1 T(KO), 5 decisions), 11 Draws Date Result Opponent Location Method Round Time Record 1927-09-22 Loss Gene Tunney Soldiers Field, Chicago, IL Decision (Unanimous) 10 3:00 66-6-11 Fight was for NBA and World Heavyweight titles. 1927-06-21 Win Jack Sharkey Yankee Stadium, The Bronx, NY KO (Left hook) 7 (15) 0:45 66-5-11 1926-09-23 Loss Gene Tunney Sesquicentennial Stadium, Philadelphia, PA Decision (Unanimous) 10 3:00 65-5-11 Lost NBA and World Heavyweight titles. 1923-09-14 Win Luis Ángel Firpo Polo Grounds, New York City, NY KO (Short right) 2 (15) 0:57 65-4-11 Retains New York State Athletic Commission and World Heavyweight titles 1923-07-04 Win Tommy Gibbons Shelby, MT Decision (Unanimous) 15 3:00 64-4-11 1922-07-24 Win Jimmy Darcy Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY Decision 4 3:00 63-4-11 Wins NYSAC Heavyweight title. 1921-07-02 Win Georges Carpentier Boyle's Thirty Acres, Jersey City, NJ KO (Right hook) 4 (12) 62-4-11 Retains World Heavyweight title and won NBA Heavyweight title. 1920-12-14 Win Bill Brennan Madison Square Garden, New York City, NY KO (Body punches) 12 (15) 1:57 61-4-11 Retains World Heavyweight title. 1920-09-06 Win Billy Miske Benton Harbor, MI KO (Right hook) 3 (10) 1:13 60-4-11 Retains World Heavyweight title. 1919-07-04 Win Jess Willard Bay View Park Arena, Toledo, OH TKO (Corner stoppage) 3 (12) 3:00 59-4-11 Wins World Heavyweight title. 1919-04-02 Win Tony Drake New Haven, CT KO 1 0:11 58-4-11 1919-02-13 Win Eddie Smith Altoona, PA KO 1 57-4-11 1919-01-29 Win Kid Henry Easton, PA KO 1 56-4-11 1919-01-23 Win Kid Harris Rajah Theater, Reading, PA KO 1 (3) 55-4-11 1919-01-22 Win Jack Hickey Orpheum Theater, Harrisburg, PA KO 1 (3) 54-4-11 1919-01-15 Win Jim Maguire Grand Theatre, Trenton, NJ KO 1 (3) 1:00 53-4-11 1918-12-29 Win Gunboat Smith Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY KO (Short right) 2 (8) 52-4-11 1918-12-16 Win Carl Morris Louisiana Auditorium, New Orleans, LA KO (Left hook) 1 (20) 51-4-11 1918-11-28 Win Billy Miske Olympia Club, Philadelphia, PA Decision 6 50-4-11 1918-11-18 Win Dan Flynn Olympia Club, Philadelphia, PA KO (Left hook) 1 (6) 2:16 49-4-11 1918-11-06 Win Battling Levinsky Olympia Club, Philadelphia, PA KO (Right punch) 3 (6) 48-4-11 1918-09-14 Win Jack Moran Moana Springs Arena], Reno, NV KO 1 (10) 47-4-11 1918-09-13 Loss Willie Meehan San Francisco Civic Auditorium, San Francisco, CA Decision 4 3:00 46-4-11 1918-08-17 Win Terry Kellar Westwood Field Gym, Dayton, OH TKO 5 (15) 46-3-11 1918-07-27 Win Fred Fulton Federal League Baseball Park, Harrison, NJ KO (Right hook) 1 (8) 0:18 45-3-11 1918-07-06 Win Dan Flynn Atlanta Auditorium, Atlanta, GA KO 1 (10) 44-3-11 1918-07-04 Win Bob Devere Joplin, MO KO 1 (12) 43-3-11 1918-07-01 Win Kid McCarthy Tulsa, OK KO 1 (12) 42-3-11 1918-05-22 Win Dan Ketchell Excelsior Springs, MO KO 2 (10) 1:00 41-3-11 1918-05-20 Win Arthur Pelkey Stockyards Stadium, Denver, CO KO 1 (15) 1:00 40-3-11 1918-05-03 Draw Billy Miske Auditorium, St. Paul, MN Decision draw 10 3:00 39-3-11 1918-03-25 Win Tom Riley Joplin, MO KO 1 (15) 39-3-10 1918-03-06 Win Fred Saddy Memphis, TN KO 1 (8) 38-3-10 1918-02-25 Win Bill Brennan Auditorium, Milwaukee, WI TKO 6 (10) 37-3-10 1918-02-14 Win Fireman Jim Flynn Fort Sheridan, IL KO 1 (10) 1:10 36-3-10 1918-02-04 Win Carl Morris Broadway Auditorium, Buffalo, NY Disqualification 6 (10) 35-3-10 1918-01-24 Win Homer Smith Racine, WI KO 1 (10) 1:55 34-3-10 1917-11-02 Win Carl Morris Dreamland Rink, San Francisco, CA Decision 4 3:00 33-3-10 1917-10-02 Win Gunboat Smith Recreation Park, San Francisco, CA Decision 4 3:00 32-3-10 1917-09-26 Win Bob McAllister Arena, Emeryville, CA Decision 4 3:00 31-3-10 1917-09-19 Win Charley Miller Arena, Emeryville, CA KO 1 (4) 30-3-10 1917-09-07 Draw Willie Meehan Dreamland Rink, San Francisco, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 29-3-10 1917-08-10 Draw Willie Meehan Dreamland Rink, San Francisco, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 29-3-9 1917-08-01 Win Al Norton Arena, Emeryville, CA KO 1 (4) 29-3-8 1917-07-25 Win Willie Meehan Arena, Emeryville, CA Decision 4 3:00 28-3-8 1917-04-11 Draw Al Norton West Oakland Club, Oakland, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 27-3-8 1917-03-28 Loss Willie Meehan Arena, Emeryville, CA Decision 4 3:00 27-3-7 1917-03-17 Draw Al Norton West Oakland Club, Oakland, CA Decision draw 4 3:00 27-2-7 1917-02-13 Loss Fireman Jim Flynn Murray, UT KO (Right hook) 1 (15) 0:10 27-2-6 1916-11-28 Win Young Hector Salida, CO KO 2 (10) 27-1-6 1916-10-16 Win Dick Gilbert Salt Lake Theater, Salt Lake City, UT Decision 10 3:00 26-1-6 1916-10-07 Win Terry Kellar Ely, NV Decision 10 3:00 25-1-6 1916-09-28 Win Young Hector Murray Fire Hall, Murray, UT TKO (Retired) 3 (10) 24-1-6 1916-07-14 Draw John Lester Johnson Harlem Sports Club, New York City, NY Decision Draw 10 3:00 23-1-6 1916-07-08 Win Bert Kenny Fairmont Athletic Club, The Bronx, NY Decision 10 3:00 23-1-5 1916-06-24 Win Andre Anderson Fairmont Athletic Club, The Bronx, NY Decision 10 3:00 22-1-5 1916-05-30 Win Bob York Elko Theater, Price, UT KO 4 (6) 21-1-5 Billed for Pacific Coast Light Heavyweight title. 1916-05-17 Win Dan Ketchell Provo, UT KO 3 (6) 20-1-5 1916-05-03 Win Terry Kellar Alhambra Theater, Ogden, UT Decision 10 3:00 19-1-5 Billed for World Light Heavyweight title. 1916-04-08 Win Joe Bonds Ely, NV Decision 10 3:00 18-1-5 1916-03-17 Win George Christian Elko Theater, Price, UT KO 1 (15) 17-1-5 1916-03-09 Win Cyril Kohen Mozart Theatre, Provo, UT KO 4 (6) 16-1-5 1916-02-23 Win Boston Bearcat Armory, Ogden, UT KO 1 (4) 15-1-5 1916-02-21 Win Jack Downey Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT KO (Right punch) 2 (4) 14-1-5 1916-02-01 Win Johnny Sudenberg Bijo Hall, Ely, NV KO 2 (10) 13-1-5 1915-12-20 Win Jack Gillian Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT TKO 1 (4) 12-1-5 1915-12-13 Draw Jack Downey Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT Decision draw 4 3:00 11-1-5 1915-11-19 Win George Copelin Cripple Creek, CO KO 6 (10) 11-1-4 1915-10-23 Win Andy Malloy Montrose, CO KO 3 10-1-4 1915-10-07 Win Andy Malloy Gem Theater, Durango, CO Decision 10 3:00 9-1-4 1915-08-01 Win Fred Woods Moose Hall, Montrose, CO KO 4 8-1-4 1915-06-11 Draw Johnny Sudenberg Tonopah, NV Decision draw 10 3:00 7-1-4 1915-05-31 Draw Johnny Sudenberg Goldfield, NV Decision draw 10 3:00 7-1-3 1915-04-26 Win Emmanuel Campbell Jockey Athletic Club, Reno, NV TKO (Referee stoppage) 4 (4) 7-1-2 1915-04-05 Loss Jack Downey Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT Decision 4 3:00 6-1-2 1915-04-01 Win Chief Gordon Utah KO 6 6-0-2 1915-03-03 Win Johnny Pierson Utah KO 7 5-0-2 1915-02-26 Draw Laverne Collier Pocatello, ID Decision draw 4 3:00 4-0-2 1915-02-02 Win Joe Lyons Utah KO 9 4-0-1 1915-01-01 Win Jim Johnson Salt Lake City, UT KO 1 3-0-1 1914-11-30 Win Billy Murphy Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT KO 1 (4) 2-0-1 1914-11-02 Win Young Hancock Manhattan Athletic Club, Salt Lake City, UT KO 1 (4) 1-0-1 1914-08-17 Draw Young Herman Ramona, CO Decision draw 6 3:00 0-0-1 Legend:   Win   Loss   Draw/No contest   Notes

• Marty, fairplay ta ya! that should be manditory on all boxers articles - great werk well done!--Vintagekits (talk) 09:22, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

Marty, great werk - that looks even better.--Vintagekits (talk) 10:27, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

That looks great, Marty. GoodDay (talk) 14:09, 28 October 2009 (UTC)

It looks good, but it's not clear to me whether the title implications are for the fight above or below.--SaskatchewanSenator (talk) 19:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)