Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2018 November 15

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November 15

Why did Hungary remain a kingdom (regency) after the end of World War I?

Why did Hungary remain a kingdom--or regency--after the end of World War I (as in, after Bela Kun's Communist regime in Hungary was overthrown)? Futurist110 (talk) 03:01, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Specifically, why didn't Hungary become a republic after the fall of Communism in 1919 like it did after the fall of Communism in 1989? Futurist110 (talk) 03:13, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Just a guess, but after three short-lived republics rising and falling within a single year (the First Hungarian Republic, the Hungarian Soviet Republic, and a days-long restoration of the First Republic), with their accompanying Red Terror, White Terror and Romanian occupation, I should think that anything savouring of boring old Habsburg stability must have sounded pretty good. --Antiquary (talk) 13:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The answer is that the Kingdom of Hungary provided Horthy with the veneer of legitimacy for what was otherwise a a facist state. It's pretty much analogous to Francoist Spain; as Franco always claimed to be running the Monarchy in the name of a king who would later be restored, so did Horthy. As you can see at Kingdom of Hungary (1920–1946), the initial situation was that the Allies refused to allow Charles to claim the throne when the monarchy was declared by Horthy et. al. Horthy was merely acting as regent till the politics became more friendly towards restoring the King. When Charles died in 1922, the nominal heir was Otto von Habsburg, a 9-year old, so Horthy just kept being regent, as they wouldn't install a 9-year old to rule. By the time Otto was old enough, there were significant international political hurdles towards him claiming the Hungarian throne; mostly due to the fact that a claim to either the Austrian Imperial Crown or the Hungarian Regnal Crown could be seen as a claim to the entirety of the empire (whether the crowns were even capable of being legally divided was complex). If he were claiming to being restored to the prior crowns, well that means bringing back the prior constitutions which would have created a whole lot of headaches. If he were claiming to being asked to be named king to an entirely different state, that created all new constitutional headaches. As to why Otto didn't just accept the throne of Hungary, I'm not sure he was particularly interested. He really wanted to restore the Austrian monarchy, not just to "Be king of somewhere" but "Be Emperor of Austria". He was directly offered the throne of Spain by Franco, a post he refused because he wasn't much interested in Spanish politics. Of course by that time it was all pointless to answer our question, Hungary became a republic for good after WWII. --Jayron32 16:25, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Excellent answer, Jayron! Also, I have a question--couldn't a 9-year-old have been made King of Hungary but without actually being given any powers until he became an adult? Futurist110 (talk) 01:13, 24 November 2018 (UTC)

Futurist110, the usual solution is to appoint a regent or a council of regents, but in the case of Hungary, Horthy was already a permanent regent and like most dictators, not keen to let go of the levers of power. Perhaps more important were the constitutional problems with fully restoring the monarchy which Jayron has outlined above. Alansplodge (talk) 10:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

Why are Russian Jews by far the least fertile ethnic group in Russia?

Based on the data here: Demographics_of_Russia#Median_age_and_fertility -- Russian Jews are by far the least fertile ethnic group in Russia. My question is this--why exactly is this the case? Futurist110 (talk) 03:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I actually think you have the answer and are looking for the question. Once we know that Jews in Russian have the least amount of childs in a household, that is itself an answer. This is like asking, once we know someone is a virgin, why is so and so a virgin. We already have the conclusions. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC).

I mean why exactly do Russian Jews have the least amount of children among all of the ethnic groups in Russia. There has to be some reason(s) for this. Futurist110 (talk) 05:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Maybe because they don't want as many? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:35, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

But why? Futurist110 (talk) 07:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Why not? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

That's not really a useful answer, and seems needlessly abrupt. The null hypothesis would presumably be that all ethnicities are equally fertile (or as near to that as random variation would allow). If a particular group is notably different in this respect, then there is presumably a reason. And if the immediate reason is "they don't want as many", then there is presumably a reason for that too, whether cultural or geographic or whatever. I don't see anything wrong with someoneone wandering why? Iapetus (talk) 09:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The comment by Шурбур below seems a reasonable possibility. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Median age: 61.1. This will make it slightly hard to give birth. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 06:11, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

That high median age is a result of them having few babies, though. Futurist110 (talk) 07:12, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

How does it compare with childbirth rates in other countries? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:55, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Well, South Korea's total fertility rate is probably lower. Futurist110 (talk) 08:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

I think if fertility of 1 ethnic group differs by country, that would be more meaningful. For example, aren't fertility of Jews in Russia going to be the same for other countries? 67.175.224.138 (talk) 12:49, 15 November 2018 (UTC).

• Jewish women are the most urbanized (98 %) and educated (65 % having a higher education) in Russia. Шурбур (talk) 08:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Is this data from the 2002 or 2010 Russian census? Also, which ethnic groups in Russia are the next most urbanized and educated? Futurist110 (talk) 21:14, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• The data are from the 2010 census. It will be more convenient to compare similar social groups.

Children per 1000 women 15+

total urban 1328

graduate/postgr 1178

secondary 1333

primary 1927

total rural 1876

graduate/postgr 1457

secondary 1827

primary 2702

Russians 1405

graduate/postgr 1186

secondary 1413

primary 2105

Jews 1264

graduate/postgr 1225

secondary 1324

primary 1714

One may then speculate that Russian graduates were oppressed more in the SU though. Шурбур (talk) 08:48, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

An awful lot of Russian Jews emigrated, some to Israel, some via Israel and some elsewhere, after the collapse of Communism. 1990s Post-Soviet aliyah has some information on this. I can't lay my hands on RS but I've definitely heard that those who chose to stay behind had an older demographic. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:10, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

What exactly is RS? Also, it is worth noting that Russian Jews were in demographic decline ever since the 1960s (the exodus of Jews from the Soviet Union only started in the 1970s on a large scale). Futurist110 (talk) 21:15, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

What exactly is RS? See Wikipedia:RS. Alansplodge (talk) 21:43, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks! Futurist110 (talk) 22:31, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes there was a similar phase with former german emigrants in russia who where invited back to West-Germany in the 1980-1990 with a simmilar result. It was mostly young people who used this and the older mostly prefered to stay in russia. So i guess that ethnic group with german roots showed a similar low reproduction rate after that. --Kharon (talk) 21:27, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The data in my link above (Demographics_of_Russia#Median_age_and_fertility) shows that Russian Germans were, on average, much younger and much more fertile than Russian Jews were in 2002. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Post-Soviet Jewish Demographic Dynamics: An Analysis of Recent Data [Revised as of October 9, 2018] confirms that mass migration to Western Europe, North America and particularly Israel is the major factor.

I'll take a look at this link. I've read some of what Mark Tolts wrote before and I wonder if I'll find any new information in this article. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

In addition, Why Fertility Levels Vary between Urban and Rural Areas? says (quoting research in Finland): "For many countries, fertility levels tend to differ by education level, with the lowest for university educated individuals and the highest for individuals with only compulsory education".

Makes sense considering that studying at a university takes up a lot of one's time and one's money--leaving less time and money available for child-rearing. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

A History of the Jewish Community in Russia (and former USSR) by Igal Lapidus says: "Russian Jewry is almost exclusively urbanized... Today, Jews are integrated into most sectors of Russian society and economy, and their level of education and standard of living are higher than those prevalent in the general population".

Alansplodge (talk) 22:18, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

One would think that the greater standard of living (and possibly wealth) of Russian Jews would allow them to have more rather than less children, though. Futurist110 (talk) 22:30, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Allowing them to doesn't mean they want to. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:46, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Indeed. As a general trend in Demography, increased wealth in a society usually results in people having fewer children, because:

(a) fewer children will die (because of their society's improved healthcare) so they don't have to have more to offset such anticipated deaths;

(b) their personal wealth will to some extent offset the need to have their children (grandchildren, etc.) support them in their old age, so they need fewer;

(c) the financial support measures characteristic of wealthier societies (personal and state pensions, other welfare services) similarly offset the need for support by offspring; and

(d) the cost of raising each individual child becomes relatively greater.

In a rapidly developing, previously impoverished society, (a) can lead to the Demographic trap because people's expectations lag behind rapid improvements in healthcare, until the Demographic transition has matured. This however does not apply to the society and ethnic group which you (Futurist110) are considering.

As a purely personal conjecture, I would hazard that the history of persecution of Jews in Russia until quite recent times (e.g. within my own lifetime) might discourage people from having children who would run the risk of suffering its potential renewal. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.218.14.42 (talk) 00:15, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

U.S. law question - hotels.

Are hotels in the U.S. allowed to charge price based by country of origin. So if the Euro dollar is worth more than the American dollar, can make it more expensive base price, and if came from a 3rd world country, base cheaper price. I know the computers can analyze formulas, but my question is if it's legal. We already know that universities can do that, International students pay a higher tuition. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 04:16, 15 November 2018 (UTC).

National origin discrimination is illegal in the United States. State universities typically charge all out-of-state students a higher tuition (since these are funded primarily by taxes paid by state residents), which includes international students. Since that policy is based on state of residence and not country of origin, it's fine. Someguy1221 (talk) 05:08, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I thought International students pay an even-higher base tuition than out-of-state tuition. So as far as I know, so it's 3-levels of prices: in state, out of state, and International. And some 2-year colleges in a city, have a 4-level tuition: in city, outside of city but in state, out of state but in country, and out of country. So, if colleges/universities can do it, why not hotels? Your comment on national-origin discrimination, I already know it's true in terms of hiring someone, and selling houses to someone. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 12:45, 15 November 2018 (UTC).

"So, if colleges/universities can do it, why not hotels?" Hotels are not usually supported by the taxes of residents, unlike public colleges. --Xuxl (talk) 14:09, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

National origin discrimination is generally prohibited under the Civil Rights Act of 1964 for public accommodations (and employment, programs or activities which receive federal funds and some others) which would include hotels etc. It's also covered under several other areas of federal law. However I'm fairly sure there are areas which the CRA and other laws do not cover. I'm not sure if it's even tested if the CRA applies to providers of services or products over the internet for example. It has been tested for the ADA [1] [2] but the definition of public accommodations is wider there. I think the case for the CRA is a lot less clear [3] [4] [5]. The last link may be of particular interest since it seems to mention Airbnb. State law may cover additional things but of course, that wouldn't necessarily be US wide (unless every jurisdiction has such laws). BTW, about education I believe it's complicated. If the educational institution receives federal funds then the CRA would likely apply. Perhaps in some cases it may be a public accommodation but I'm not convinced it's so clear cut if the educational institute receives zero federal funds, especially again I suspect, online only educational institutions. Note that many legal challenges to things like affirmative action have been based on the Equal Protection Clause which will not apply to non citizens although AFAIK most of these have been to institutions who receive federal funds anyway. These may be of interest Regents of the Univ. of Cal. v. Bakke Grutter v. Bollinger [6] [7] [[8]] [9] [10]. Note that although the CRA also applies to schools (and I'm not sure what the definition of schools is) this primarily relates to segregation. Nil Einne (talk) 16:34, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Something to keep in mind about the Fourteenth Amendment: "No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:42, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Sorry, you're right on that. However that only directly applies to government/public universities. For private ones, the requirements are AFAIK held to come from equal protection clause via the CRA (or otherwise via the reception of government funds, federal or state) [11] [12]. For institutions who chose not to receive such funds (which is very rare but is possible), it's again not clear to me that the CRA or other areas of law will apply especially for internet only institutions. I'd also note that while these may apply to US citizens and lawful permanent residents, I'm not convinced there's case law on how it interacts with non citizens who are not lawful permanent residents even those lawfully in the US, especially those with F visas. While you likely still couldn't discriminate based on national origin per se, it's possible a compelling could be made that discrimination based solely on long term residency status (rather than national origin) could be made, since there's no guarantee they could work in the US after graduation e.g. [13]. The debates surrounding affirmative action show that it's far from simple. Some of the earlier sources also reflect such complexity even where national origin or race does directly arise. The Immigration Reform and Control Act of 1986 AFAIK mostly only affects employment. Nil Einne (talk) 17:29, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Yes, the situation with colleges and universities gets trickier, perhaps in part because there is no constitutional right to go to any particular college. There are generally more applicants than there are openings, and that's where affirmative action issues arise. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:44, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

• Let’s get back to what was asked about... hotels. The price of a hotel room can fluctuate wildly... depending on demand. The same room can be very expensive one month, and reasonably cheap the next. Even the day of the week when you want to reserve the room can impact pricing. Blueboar (talk) 19:22, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Happens all the time and is generally legal. See Price discrimination. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:20, 15 November 2018 (UTC)
    • I heard that some places discriminate prices on-line by what operating system you're using, that Mac users are more likely to be richer than Windows users and therefore willing to pay more. The only example I was told is airline companies. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2018 (UTC).
  • Yes but the fact remains, all evidence suggests they cannot normally do to for reasons of national origin. To do so runs a strong risk of violating the CRA. This suggests no decent US hotel is going to openly admit to doing so. Note however it's likely to be less clear cut for currency conversions. If a guest chooses to pay in Euro, they could potentially offer a terrible rate if they wanted to. There is probably still some risk of national origin discrimination, but it could be reduced by smart management, for example, making sure you always advertise and advise customs of both prices. Also As the Trivago person likes to say, different prices may be advertised in different places however the reasoning would generally have to be for reasons besides national origin. I'm suspect the case is a lot less clear cutWhile I'm not familiar with the case law, there is probably some small risk if someone advertises a different price in a German travel magazine than they do in US radio advertisement. But by the same token,At a minimum I strongly suspect any competent management team is going to say they did so because of the specific audiences of the different venues, which had nothing to do with national origin (or race etc). Nil Einne (talk) 02:50, 16 November 2018 (UTC)17:07, 17 November 2018 (UTC)
    • BTW, there's also the complexity of how the CRA interacts with people who aren't US citizens or permanent residents and are currently located outside the US. But still, it seems a risky strategy considering you could also affect US citizens. On a related note, this specifically notes that airlines can't practice price discrimination for reasons of national origin [14]. Nil Einne (talk) 03:13, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
• In my experience, hotels quote a room rate based on the dates you want to stay and the type of room you prefer before they have any information about your identity. What are they going to do, say "I'm sorry, but we charge Lithuanians 11% more" when they find out who you are? As for foreign exchange rates, U.S. hotels normally accept payment in U.S. dollars. Exchange of foreign currency is handled either by credit card processors or those currency exchange booths you see at airports. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 03:49, 16 November 2018 (UTC)
  • Don't credit cards have an bank with country of origin? For on-line pays. Back in 2008, the Euro dollar was worth so more more than the American dollar, it was actually cheaper for people in England to do Christmas shopping in the U.S. That is, fly to the U.S., spend some nights at the hotel, and Christmas shop, fly back to England. So imo a way around it is to pay cash - it's like you have to pre-trade the Euro dollars for American dollars. 67.175.224.138 (talk) 05:29, 16 November 2018 (UTC).

Are you referring to Eurodollars, or just to foreign currency such as Euros and pounds sterling? Are prices so much cheaper in Chicago that people fly there to shop and save? I would have thought that a customer would need to be spending tens of thousands of dollars to be able to make a saving. Don't most visitors to America spend in American dollars? Dbfirs 07:34, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

As mentioned above, US hotels can't charge guests different rates due to their nationality. However, there is no requirement that they charge the same rate in every currency. A US hotel will usually offer the best rate in US dollars (regardless of the nationality of the customer). If they allow guests to pay in any other currency, there may be a service charge or other fee applied. This nominally covers the cost of the currency conversion for the hotel, but in some cases it may be quite large. If you have to pay in a foreign currency, then it is generally best to use a credit card and have the credit card company determine the conversion rate. If the hotel offers an option to pay directly in a foreign currency either when booking or at checkout (this isn't very common in the US, though it is fairly common in Europe), then it is often the case that they are giving you a pretty terrible conversion rate. Dragons flight (talk) 10:11, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

Just to be clear, if there is a U.S. Hotel that accepts payment in Euros, they aren't charging you a higher rate to stay in the room; they are charging you for two services: first as a hotel and secondly as a foreign currency exchange. The fees for the second service may raise the cost of your stay, but you still pay the same amount for the room itself. Also, they don't care about your country of origin. You could be traveling from the EU and as long as you pay in dollars, you pay the same rate as Americans do. An American paying in Euros would also have the same surcharges on their stay as European would. --Jayron32 17:45, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

However, although they can probably justify a fairly high fee, while IANAL and this isn't legal advice I wouldn't say there is zero risk if it's too high depending on lots of factors like those I mentioned earlier. More so in the era before smart phones as now even most customers with poor maths and memories can instantly compare the rate the hotel is offering with that their bank will offer. If they can't justify why they charged such a fee, the courts may consider that they're really just trying to discriminate against people because of their national origin. A loosely related example is that banning customers or employees from speaking languages besides English (let alone a specific language) without a good reason can be problematic even though the law doesn't explicitly deal with language. Even though it affects people whatever their race, ethnicity or national origin, it disproportionately affects people based on these factors [15]. There's a difference in that speaking in English may be more difficult or uncomfortable for some people but most people should be able to easily either use their banks's conversion or use a money changer but it will ultimately come down to the details. Noting also that the corollary, requiring someone is able to speak some language if there's no reason it's of benefit in the job can likewise be problematic, also requiring English fluency if it isn't required. [16] Nil Einne (talk) 17:37, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

new Internet cat meme

A couple months ago, I discovered a new Internet cat meme on YouTube. The cat's name is Ollie. He resides in the United Kingdom. He's also been proclaimed "The Polite Cat", due to his human-like facial expression. What can you tell me about Ollie the Polite Cat? (And shouldn't there be an article about him?)142.255.69.73 (talk) 12:00, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

The consensus seems to be that this is just a cat with a photoshopped expression. There are articles about it (e.g. [17]), but thankfully not on Wikipedia.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 12:40, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't Know Your Meme. There likely isn't enough notability to have an entry here. †dismas†|^(talk) 21:32, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

See Media Hype. Many just live for a few days - like Tamagotchis... --Kharon (talk) 21:36, 15 November 2018 (UTC)

You may wish to check Ollie the Polite Cat out on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter, Reddit, Tumblr and Imgur. On those social media pages, you may find more about Ollie the Polite Cat. Hopefully, there may be enough information to create an article on Wikipedia.2604:2000:7104:2F00:D863:4B1F:1999:7426 (talk) 03:55, 16 November 2018 (UTC)

None of those social media platforms is a reliable source for establishing the notability of a topic on Wikipedia. Not a single one of them. No matter how much you hope, IP editor, no acceptable article can be built on such a flimsy basis. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:35, 16 November 2018 (UTC)