Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2017 April 17

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April 17

Increased presence of Asian vegetables in a non-Asian American supermarket

It seems to me that there is an increased presence of Asian vegetables in a non-Asian American supermarket (such as green nira/Chinese chives, shiitake mushrooms, enokitake mushrooms, daikon radish, variants of bok choy). How did this happen? Are Americans inviting more Asian immigrants, who are demanding more Asian vegetables? Are Americans actually transporting native Asian plants to the United States? Or are the plants actually all imported goods? And how come non-Asian Americans are eating edamame, soy milk, and tofu, but things like tofu skin, dried tofu, Okara (soy pulp) are little known? And why the Japanese term is often preferred over the Chinese term, even though many of these foods are derived from China, not Japan? I once watched on YouTube, which had a woman from China who said that cheese is a foreign import, so cheese is very expensive in China. Are East Asians increasing consumption of foreign veggies the same way Americans seem to have increased consumption of Asian veggies? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 02:21, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Globalization, cultural diversity. μηδείς (talk) 02:30, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Note that the search for healthier food can bring foreign veggies to our attention. I've specifically seen many of those oriental veggies mentioned on PBS health shows they run during pledge week. They also run specific Oriental cooking shows, like Simply Ming, year round. StuRat (talk) 05:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Larger supermarkets (Kroger and the like) have had these for a long time. Keep in mind that there may in fact be Asian-Americans living near you that also shop there. shoy (reactions) 15:00, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

My experience tells me that Meijer has more Asian veggies than Kroger. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 16:56, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Stuff just gets integrated into diets as it shows up here. Spaghetti was presumably an ethnic food in the US once upon a time. And you can get tortillas and salsa in any supermarket (at least around here) these days. Same with tofu, soy sauce, and those veggies you mention. Although if you want real selection outside of local markets, see if there's a 99 Ranch Market near you. They have a whole aisle filled with dozens of kinds of soy sauce, something like the 500 Eskimo words for snow. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 02:51, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Bok choy is grown in California[1] and no doubt other USAian places. Edamame is gaining a foothold ... in Arkansas.[2] Clarityfiend (talk) 01:54, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Recent estimates of Asian Americans estimate them to about 18, 206,000 people, but Asian cuisine has had an influence in the United States since the 19th century. And some of these plants are not that rare.

By "nira", I assume you mean Allium tuberosum, a type of onion native to Shanxi. Due to human activities, it has spread to Europe and the United States. There are reports of tuberosum growing in the wild in a few U.S. states, where it has become an invasive species: Alabama, Arkansas, Illinois, Iowa, Michigan, Nebraska, Ohio, and Wisconsin.

Shiitake are native to East Asia, but human cultivation has spread them across the world. About 25% of the total yearly production of mushrooms consists of shiitake.

Enokitake are native to East Asia, but might see a wider spread due to their supposed medicinal effects. Recent medical research suggests "possible applications in the development of vaccines and cancer immunotherapy".

Daikon seems to be a local term for Raphanus sativus, a variety of domesticated radish. They are cultivated in North America, where they are used primarily to prevent soil compaction and their leaves are used for fodder.

Bok choy is a variety of Brassica rapa native to East Asia. Their winter-hardy qualities has seen their human cultivation spread to to other continents, and they are increasingly cultivated in Northern Europe. There are some concerns that eating them in large doses is toxic to humans, due to the presence of glucosinolates in the plant.

Edamame are simply soybeans. Samuel Bowen imported soybeans from China to the Province of Georgia in 1765. He started cultivating them in the vicinity of Savannah, Georgia. Following the Dust Bowl of the 1930s, there were massive efforts to plant soybeans in drought-stricken areas, in an attempt to regenerate their soil.

Soy milk is a soybean product. They were apparently introduced to the American market by a Hong Kong company called Vitasoy in 1979. Demand was high enough for American companies to start domestic production c. 1985.

Tofu is a soy milk derivative. The first American to mention it was apparently Benjamin Franklin, who was introduced to it in 1770 during a visit to London. A tofu production company in the United States was established in 1878, although demand for the product was mostly established in the 20th century. It has apparently become a favorite food for vegans and vegetarians. Dimadick (talk) 19:26, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

World War II military assassinations

The Allies tried to kill Rommel and did get Yamamoto. Did the Axis ever try to knock off anybody? If not, why not? Clarityfiend (talk) 02:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Some examples here. --Jayron32 03:30, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Yamamoto took a big chance by flying through an insecure area. Even worse, their codes had been broken, so the allies knew he was coming. Most allied commanders didn't take such chances. Douglas MacArthur, for example, was known to have hidden out in his bunker in the Philippines, then evacuated, rather than spend much time at the front line. StuRat (talk) 05:32, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

There was even a song about McArthur's "personal safety strategy". Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 06:25, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Further to Jayron's link above, see Operation Long Jump. Alansplodge (talk) 09:00, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

The Allies tried to kill Rommel? See Erwin Rommel#Death to read what Wikipedia thinks about his death. Dolphin (t) 13:05, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

See Operation Flipper and Operation Gaff. --Jayron32 13:17, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Not directly answering the question, but note, the biggest Nazi scalp was not claimed by the allies, but by the Czech resistance, albeit with allied assistance. Heydrich's death was certainly a huge morale blow and propaganda coup. Eliyohub (talk) 15:29, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

In part, Reinhard Heydrich himself was to blame for his death. He did not believe in taking personal security measures, and "often drove alone in a car with an open roof". An act of bravado which was well known to both his allies and enemies. On the day of the assassination attempt, Heydrich was transported on a Mercedes-Benz W142 convertible. He was only accompanied by his driver. They initial attempt to wound Heydrich with a submachine gun failed, because the weapon jammed. Instead of driving away or trying to escape, Heydrich chose to stop his car and confront the assassins with his Luger pistol. He was then injured by the assassins' grenade. When the assassins fled, Heydrich attempted to chase them on foot, before collapsing. He commanded his driver to chase them, instead of seeking help. Heydrich was randomly transported to safety by two civilians. He died eight days later due to his injuries, the death attributed to sepsis.

Heydrich's physicians may have been to blame, for their decision to not provide their patient with antibiotics. One of them recommended the use of sulfonamide, but chief physician Karl Gebhardt shot down the idea. Gebhardt devoted much of the rest of his medical career to promoting a theory that sulfonamide "was useless in the treatment of gangrene and sepsis". His theory was wrong and Gebhardt's obsession is blamed for the deaths of many patients. Dimadick (talk) 20:24, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Engineering

What jobs are good for engineers who like seeing the big strategic picture through a technical lens rather than just detail engineering, looking at very specific things? 2A02:C7D:B8FC:9000:B8C7:87EC:A8:3648 (talk) 12:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Project manager. --Jayron32 12:48, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Speaking from personal experience, if you are not a "details person", then engineering might not be the right job for you. Project manager might be closer to what you are looking for, but even PMs have their own details that they are in charge of. shoy (reactions) 15:03, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

For many projects there are engineers who look at the big picture. For example, if a new highway is being planned, some civil engineers will design the placement of rivets on each bridge, while others will plan the overall route. StuRat (talk) 15:08, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

What about even more bigger picture? Or would than cross more over into project/programme management and urban planning? 2A02:C7D:B8FC:9000:95C1:8D0D:2A8E:2A52 (talk) 15:47, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, the bigger the pic gets the larger percent of the decisions are made for non-engineering reasons. For example, when planning a road system, you get into politics of which areas are available to use, the economics of how much money is available from taxes, and the legal issues of where you can get land by eminent domain. Of course, some engineering and scientific input can be useful even at the highest levels. For example, if two routes are under consideration for a road, and one is through an area with karst topography, that should be listed as a significantly negative, due to the risk of sinkholes. StuRat (talk) 15:58, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

But for some reason, nearly all of them sit behind a computer or in a meeting room all day. Actually what about technical advisors and policy makers? 2A02:C7D:B8FC:9000:95C1:8D0D:2A8E:2A52 (talk) 17:21, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Computers are pretty much the tool of choice for most engineering work nowadays. And meetings are one of the favourite means to communicate high-level decisions and results. It's pretty unlikely that you will find an engineering job that does not involve computers and meetings. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 17:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

If you're the kind of person who likes to be out of the office, a site manager may spend more time than other types of engineering-based jobs out of the office. There's still considerable office work though. --Jayron32 17:44, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

It sounds like you want to be an executive so you get to do grand planning. You need a certain personality for that, which isn't that common in engineers, but it shows up sometimes and can be a powerful combination. I liked reading biographies of Kelly Johnson and Wernher von Braun who were well-known examples. More recently Bill Gates would count as another. [Added: or Elon Musk]. One could say all of them did unsavory things as well as savory, and that seems to be part of the picture. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 03:05, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

industry in The UK

How did the uk become such a financially centred economy and less focused on science and engineering, when it's the country which started the industrial revolution? 2A02:C7D:B8FC:9000:B8C7:87EC:A8:3648 (talk) 12:38, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

There's a somewhat general article (not specifically on the UK or its financial sector) at Post-industrial society... AnonMoos (talk) 12:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

• I would very much quibble with your characterisation the economy isn't focussed on science and engineering, given that the UK has the world's second or third largest scientific output (depending on how you measure it). Measuring the contribution to the economy is considerably trickier of course, but saying there's no focus on science seems incorrect. Fgf10 (talk) 14:34, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

• You didn't mention manufacturing, but that's the hallmark of the industrial revolution. Free trade has allowed most manufacturing to be done in other countries with lower wages and weaker laws protecting workers and the environment. Only protective tariffs and trade restrictions can end this. Of course, doing so means products will cost more and the UK may not be able to export as much, once other nations respond with their own tariffs, etc. StuRat (talk) 15:13, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

The shift away from government support for traditional heavy industries such as steel making, ship building and vehicle manufacture in the 1980s was an element of Thatcherism. Whether you believe that this was an act of vandalism motivated by ideology or an essential refocusing of an already changing economy is a matter of political standpoint. Alansplodge (talk) 16:47, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Nazis and debt-free currency

Dd the Nazis ever issue debt-free currency? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.233.120.59 (talk) 16:43, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

The currency of Nazi Germany was the Reichsmark. Wikipedia's article on the subject could use some work, but perhaps it will give you a place to start your research. --Jayron32 17:04, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Exams

There is a person in Argentina that studies in a university, but for a certain reason he is unable to attend classes. He receives then a special arrangement: he is informed of the topics of all the classes and he is not required to attend them, but he will have to attend at some specified date and have the exam, having to study for it on his own. In Spanish it is called "examen libre" ("free exam"), is there such a system in English-speaking countries? How is it called? Cambalachero (talk) 17:58, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

In English speaking countries this is often called credit by examination. --Jayron32 18:01, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

At my university, we called it "having an 8:30 (AM) class", or indeed any class that met before 10:00 on Friday mornings. Blueboar (talk) 22:12, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

In my time at university (some obscure place in the East Anglian Fens which was bleeding cold in January when the wind blew in from Siberia), lectures were entirely voluntary. You were expected to attend several "supervisions" (tutorials) per week at which you had to discuss the essay you had submitted a few days earlier, and would get into serious trouble if you didn't attend these. I think scientists had to attend lab sessions as well. I think now a lot of universities require students to attend and keep a log.Paulturtle (talk) 23:31, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

At what point does a group of people become indigenous?

It is believed that humans all came out of Africa and lived in different places on the globe. If the first wave of human migrants arrive to a place without humans, do they automatically become indigenous until later waves of migrants come in? What if the genes of the first wave perish or become intermingled with later waves of migrants? What about places like Australia and Canada and the United States and South America, where recent immigrants (within hundreds of years) are thriving while the earlier immigrants (thousands of years) are living in relative poverty? If the early immigrants slowly become displaced by or interbreed with the later immigrants, then will the successive generations all become indigenous to the land? As minority cultures merge into the majority culture, does that mean a loss of cultural diversity too? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 17:59, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

There is a Wikipedia article titled Indigenous peoples which has a section titled "definitions". --Jayron32 18:02, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

The term is relative, not absolute. Peoples don't "become" indigenous, they are indigenous relative to later colonizers or invaders. A good long look at the History of Iberia will give you an idea. μηδείς (talk) 20:10, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Medeis, Unless the OP is flying there, I think Iberian Peninsula#Proto-history and Iberian Peninsula#History might be more appropriate.  :) Rojomoke (talk) 22:37, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah, yes, like American History. Worst redirect ever.μηδείς (talk) 01:20, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Editors are invited to discuss the target of the redirect History of Iberia (which currently goes directly to an airline) at this RFD: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Redirects_for_discussion/Log/2017_April_18#History_of_Iberia μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Possibly once the group memory has forgotten the migration - though that might no apply to literate societies which keep a recorded history. Wymspen (talk) 08:15, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

"Indigenous" is more of a legal concept in international law than an indication of lack of interbreeding with other populations. Our List of indigenous peoples includes examples such as the Sami people, the Basques, and the Ainu people.

• • The Sami are a Finno-Ugric group who have been present in Arctic areas of Europe for several millennia, and are attested in written sources since the 1st century. Their society depended on hunting reindeer and fishing, they did not urbanize, and they did not have extensive trade activities with other people until the 14th century. Various efforts to assimilate them have had mixed results. There are an estimated 80,000 to 135,000 people currently self-identifying as Sami, but there may be more Sami descendants among the general populations of Norway, Sweden, Finland, and Russia.
  • The Basques are a non-Indo-European speaking population, living in the mountainous borders of Spain and France. They have been present in the area for several millennia. In the Middle Ages, they played a part in the formation of a number of states in the Iberian peninsula, including the Kingdom of Navarre. They progressively lost their political independence between the 15th and 17th century, and remnants of their autonomy in the 18th and 19th centuries. In the 20th century, they started efforts to regain their political status. There are an estimated 3 million Basques, with potentially more descendants in the Americas.
  • The Ainu were a hunter-gatherer society, residing in areas of modern Japan and Russia. Most of their areas were fully annexed into the Empire of Japan in the 19th century. There were various efforts to assimilate them by force. Today there are an estimated 25,000-26,000 Ainu in Japan and Russia, with up to 200,000 people having recent Ainu ancestry. Dimadick (talk) 21:53, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

Initials for US presidents

Wasn't sure whether to put this here or at the language desk; judgment call.

There are three US presidents known especially by three-initial abbreviations: FDR, JFK, LBJ. Is there any commonality that can be singled out for these three particularly? They are all Democrats, but in the same time frame, so was Harry Truman, who is rarely called HST. Moreover, if I had to name a fourth one, it would probably be George W Bush.

Partly I suppose it might be to distinguish them from other figures with the same last name? FDR from Teddy Roosevelt, JFK from Bobby and Teddy, LBJ from — I suppose Andrew Johnson? And GWB from his father. That would make sense, I guess. Can the guess be substantiated, or are there other possibilities? --Trovatore (talk) 20:17, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Consider the other presidents to whom we often refer using their middle initial or name. John Quincy Adams is, thanks to his father (but "John Q. Adams" is quite rare, and neither Adams is commonly addressed in popular culture anyway), as is William Henry Harrison (but again, "Henry" never gets abbreviated), while "Ulysses Grant" isn't hugely common, and "Rutherford Hayes", "William Taft", "Thomas Wilson" (how many people know that "Woodrow" wasn't his first name?), and "Warren Harding" are quite rare. Bush II, like Adams, is an outright matter of disambiguation, while Johnson outright paraded his initials; his campaign slogan was "All the way with LBJ", while nicknames and given names enabled his whole family (even the dogs!) to share the same initials. I'll just guess that Roosevelt, Kennedy, and Johnson are more commonly in the popular consciousness, so people desire to abbreviate their names instead of using the whole thing, while the Harding-and-earlier presidents, being more obscure nowadays, don't attract much attention from people who are given to the use of initialisms. Nyttend (talk) 20:35, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Also TR for Teddy Roosevelt. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:00, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

JFK and LBJ did the initials thing as something of a homage to FDR. There's a book called "In the Shadow of FDR" (by William Leuchtenburg) which talks of FDR's influence over the 1950s-70s and mentions this. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 02:54, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Ah, now that's interesting. Thanks. --Trovatore (talk) 04:10, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I've seen people use "BHO" and "DJT" as well (although the sample size is basically "a few people I know on Facebook"). Adam Bishop (talk) 13:42, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I've seen BHO used, but only derisively. DJT not yet, but there's still time. I think GWB and GHWB will stick, given their effects on Iraq and 9/11, but historically it's too early to tell. People seem to use the Bush initials whether they are supportive or critical. μηδείς (talk) 21:04, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Again, disambiguation; George Bush can be two different men of roughly equal prominence, and the initials are more accurate (and thus "feel" better to many people) than "Bush, Sr." and "Bush, Jr." or "Bush I" and "Bush II". Nyttend (talk) 00:27, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

I was never certain why Americans seem so obsessed with initials. You can compare the actual names of the various Presidents with the List of nicknames of Presidents of the United States:

• George Washington. His initials were GW. Better known as "The American Cincinnatus", "The American Fabius", and "The Father of His Country".
• John Adams. His initials were JA. Better known as "The Colossus of Independence", "Old Sink or Swim", and "His Rotundity".
• Thomas Jefferson. His initials were TJ. Better known as "The Apostle of Democracy", "The Man of the People", and "The Sage of Monticello".
• James Madison, Jr.. His initials were JM or JMJ. Better known as "Little Jemmy", "His Little Majesty", and "Father of the Constitution".
• James Monroe. His initials were JM. Better known as "The Era of Good Feelings President", and "The Last Cocked Hat".
• John Quincy Adams. His initials were JQA. Better known as "Old Man Eloquent", or "The Abolitionist".
• Andrew Jackson. His initials were AJ. Better known as "The Hero of New Orleans", "Old Hickory", and "King Mob".
• Martin Van Buren. His initials were MVB. Better known as "The American Talleyrand", "The Careful Dutchman", "The Enchanter", "The Great Manager", "The Master Spirit", "Martin Van Ruin", "Matty Van", "The Mistletoe Politician", "Old Kinderhook (OK)", "Red Fox of Kinderhook", and "The Little Magician".
• William Henry Harrison Sr.. His initials were WHH or WHHS. Better known as "General Mum", "Tippecanoe", "Old Tippecanoe", and "Washington of the West".
• John Tyler. Sometimes mentioned as John Tyler, Jr. to disambiguate him from his father. His initials were JT or JTJ. Better known as "His Accidency".
• James Knox Polk. His initials were JKP. Better known as "Napoleon of the Stump" and "Young Hickory".
• Zachary Taylor. His initials were ZT. Better known as "Old Rough and Ready".
• Millard Fillmore. His initials were MF. Better known as "The American Louis Philippe".
• Franklin Pierce. His initials were FP. Better known as "Young Hickory of the Granite Hills", and "Handsome Frank".
• James Buchanan, Jr.. His initials were JB or JBJ. Better known as "Old Public Functionary", "Old Buck", "Bachelor President", and "Ten-Cent Jimmy".
• Abraham Lincoln. His initials were AL. Better known as "The Ancient One", "The Great Emancipator", "The Liberator", "Honest Abe", "The Rail-Splitter", "The Tycoon", and "Uncle Abe".
• Andrew Johnson. His initials were AJ. Better known as "The Tennessee Tailor".
• Hiram Ulysses Grant, name later changed to Ulysses S. Grant. His initials were HUG or USG. Better known as "Unconditional Surrender Grant".
• Rutherford Birchard Hayes. His initials were RBH. Better known as "Rutherfraud", or "His Fraudulency".
• James Abram Garfield. His initials were JAG. Better known as "Boatman Jim".
• Chester Alan Arthur. His initials were CAA. Better known as "Chet", "Gentleman Boss", "Prince Arthur", "The Dude President", and "Walrus".
• Stephen Grover Cleveland. His initials were SGC. Better known as "His Obstinacy", "Uncle Jumbo", and "Grover the Good".
• Benjamin Harrison. His initials were BH. Better known as "The Front Porch Campaigner", "The Human Iceberg", and "Little Ben".
• William McKinley Jr.. His initials were WMK or WMKJ. Better known as "The Napoleon of Protection".
• Theodore Roosevelt Jr.. His initials were TR or TRJ, and he liked to sign his communications as TR. Better known as "The Hero of San Juan Hill", "The Lion", "Teddy", and "The Trust Buster".
• William Howard Taft. His initials were WHT. Better known as "Big Chief", and "Big Lub".
• Thomas Woodrow Wilson. His initials were TWW. Better known as "The Phrasemaker", and "The Schoolmaster".
• Warren Gamaliel Harding. His initials were WGH. Better known as "Wobbly Warren".
• John Calvin Coolidge Jr.. His initials were JCC or JCCJ. Better known as "Cautious Cal", "Cool Cal", and "Silent Cal".
• Herbert Clark Hoover. His initials were HCH. Better known as "The Great Engineer", "The Great Humanitarian", and "The Chief".
• Franklin Delano Roosevelt. His initials were FDR. Better known as "That Man in the White House".
• Harry S. Truman. His initials were HST. Better known as "Give 'Em Hell Harry".
• Dwight David Eisenhower. His initials were DDE. Better known as "Ike".
• John Fitzgerald Kennedy. His initials were JFK. Better known as "Jack".
• Lyndon Baines Johnson. His initials were LBJ, and he made a point of using them publicly. Better known as "Bullshit Johnson", "Bull Johnson", "Landslide Lyndon", and "Light-Bulb Lyndon".
• Richard Milhous Nixon. His initials were RMN. Better known as "Tricky Dick".
• Leslie Lynch King Jr., name later changed to Gerald Rudolph Ford Jr. His initials were LLK/LLKJ or GRF/GRFJ. Better known as "Jerry", and "Mr. Nice Guy".
• James Earl Carter Jr.. His initials were JEC or JECJ. Better known as "Jimmy", or "The Peanut Farmer".
• Ronald Wilson Reagan. His initials were RWR. Better known as "Dutch", "The Great Communicator", "The Gipper", and "The Teflon President".
• George Herbert Walker Bush. His initials were GHWB. Better known as "41", "Papa Bush", and "Poppy".
• William Jefferson Blythe III, name later changed to William Jefferson Clinton. His initials were WJB or WJC. Better known as "Bubba", "Slick Willie", "The Comeback Kid", "The First Black President", and "The Big Dog".
• George Walker Bush. His initials were GWB. Better known as "43", "Bush Jr.", "Junior", and "Dubya".
• Barack Hussein Obama II. His initials were BHO. Better known as "No drama Obama", and "King Obama".
• Donald John Trump. His initials were DJT. Better known as "The Donald", and "The Trumpster".

Quite a collection of characters whose initials are rather obscure. Dimadick (talk) 12:58, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

In olden times, people were often publicly known by the initials of their given names. Note how often Lincoln signed correspondence as "A. Lincoln." There have been retailers such as J.C. Penney and S.S. Kresge. Financier J.P. Morgan. Actors H.B. Warner and W.C. Fields. For a stranger to address someone by his first name was considered impolite. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:31, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

(In)defeasible estates

In the cartoon The Wabbit Who Came to Supper, Elmer Fudd inherits money on the condition that he not hurt any animals; if he does, the money goes back to the testator's estate, an option he eventually picks because taxes and fees leave him actually owing money on the deal. If he were inheriting real property, and not just cash, would this be an example of a defeasible estate? And is there a term for a situation comparable to (in)defeasible estates in the context of personal property? Nyttend (talk) 20:39, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

As the article that you linked states: "An estate not subject to such conditions is called an indefeasible estate." --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:AC43:3B49:CF5E:E4EF (talk) 00:09, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but how is that relevant? An indefeasible estate is one where you're left land without such conditions. Nyttend (talk) 00:36, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I believe that kind of stuff has fallen out of favor in the past few centuries, and courts tossed out such conditions with enough regularity that they're not much tried any more. Before that, though, there's a notion (I don't know how accepted) that the fee tail was the lynchpin of English feudalism. It kept large estates in one piece and in the hands of a single family, making them more and more powerful. It's also a plot element in Pride and Prejudice. 50.0.136.56 (talk) 03:00, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

I misread your query. Estate (law) includes both 'real property' (land and "immovable" property: buildings, etc.) and 'personal property' (cars, cash, etc.) Does this help? --2606:A000:4C0C:E200:AC43:3B49:CF5E:E4EF (talk) 03:53, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I'm familiar with the concept of the fee tail, and as you'll see from my comment, I am already well aware of the division between real and personal property and the fact that an estate can include both. Nyttend (talk) 10:40, 18 April 2017 (UTC)

In non-inheritance contexts, a gift can be complete or incomplete; an incomplete gift can be withdrawn under certain conditions. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 14:14, 18 April 2017 (UTC)