Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2010 August 25

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August 25

Racist French law?

I recently read in the news that France is deporting all Roma (Gypsies). How isn't this racial discrimination a violation of French and EU law? --70.134.48.188 (talk) 00:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The paragraph on France in our Romani people by country article links to some of the controversy and criticism. ---Sluzzelin talk 00:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

They aren't deporting all Gypsies, just those from some eastern European countries whose citizens don't have automatic residency rights in France... AnonMoos (talk) 05:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

They are also not "deporting" them in the sense the word suggests, historically, i.e. stuffing them into trains against their will and dumping them off somewhere uninhabited - it's not all of them as you say, it's a free choice and they get a small amount of money for leaving the country and returning to their country of origin. This doesn't change the fact that this indeed smacks of racism and I'm terribly uncomfortable with the news regardless. TomorrowTime (talk) 06:20, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Keep in mind, even the definition of "racial discrimination" is not that clear. One could argue that not deporting them would be racial discrimination: if I, as a non-Gypsy, causasian, would just go illegally on a property owned by someone else, build up a shack, litter around, and generally make the life of the tax-paying residents around miserable, they would kick me out or put me to jail without any questions asked. However, if I'm belonging to certain ethnic and racial category, than human right activists would fight to protect me. Wouldn't that be racial discrimination? The original question is very loaded and (even if unintentionally) begging for ranting. The only tolerated answer is "yes, it is racist discrimination", every other answer like "they are being deported because of their illegal activities" will be bashed by at least some activists by being "racist". --131.188.3.20 (talk) 23:31, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

But they aren't deporting people based on illegal activities; any person with Roma ancestry can be deported under the laws even if they've given up their nomadic lifestyle. --70.134.48.188 (talk) 23:53, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

This is simply not true: they are dismantling illegal camps, and if you have a legal working permit to stay in France while living in a registered home, no one would send you home based only on your ancestry. --131.188.3.21 (talk) 06:26, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

off-topic discussion with some comments worth reading
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
So instead of picking individual pockets, they are picking the collective pockets of France, taking the money and running. What's wrong with this picture? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 06:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I'm not saying you are one, but obviously a racist white would say "Roma pick pockets". So, if the reason you were saying that is that you are a racist white, I would be able to respond to this question by saying : "The same thing is wrong as when, instead of individually lynching an arab, you believe a story about how Iraq will destroy you with weapons of mass destruction, and support going in killing tens of thousands of arabs militarily." See how it feels? "Whites love to murder arabs" is as racist as "Roma pick pockets", and it doesn't matter to what extent either of those questions is statistically "true": it's a racist statement that has had no place in civilized society for going on the better part of a century. Read a book, grandpa. 84.153.253.222 (talk) 09:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC) First, gypsies are not a "race". Second, I know people who've had their pockets picked by gypsies. Third, France is trying to fix what they see as a problem. Instead of crying "racism", maybe you could offer an alternative solution to the problem? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC) First: you're factually wrong to say "gypsies aren't a race". Gypsies links to Romani_people which says : "The Romani... are an ethnic group ... ". Ethnic group means race, if it weren't race it would call them a community of people or something. Second: your implication with the sentence "I know people who've had their pockets picked by gypsies" is, simply, a perfectly normal, human conclusion. It just so happens to be the better part of a century out of date. Let me tell you something: I know Americans who cheer when a bunch of arab civilians are blown up before their eyes by heavy munitions. The implication that white Americans love to murder Arabs is the racist implication. Let me reiterate: "my friends were stolen from by Romani" -> "Romani steal" is racist. This might be radical news for you grandpa, but in the rest of the civilized world the fact that this conclusion is racist is very, very old news. Like, the better part of a century old news. Seriously, read a book or something. 84.153.253.222 (talk) 10:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Romani people are not a race. An ethnic group is not a race. For example, the Irish are not a race. Arabs are not a race. Irish and Romani and Arabs are all part of the Caucasian race. If we ever cheer when something bad happens to Arabs (or Muslims extremists, actually), it's because of 9/11/01, and the perps did plenty of cheering against us then, so enough of that stuff, yeh? Thinking back, it wasn't pickpocketed, it was strong-armed and robbed, on a Paris commuter train. I suppose that's an improvement over being pickpocketed? Maybe not. And it wasn't a century ago either. And if it's so out of date, why are the French trying to deport these folks? Take your complaints to the French government, not to wikipedia which has no jurisdiction in the matter. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Dunno Bugs. You still seem to be asserting that, whether or not the Romani people are a race, they are a group of theiving bastards who deserve to be deported for that reason. At best that seems like crass ignorant stereotyping of the type which - despite the pedantic arguement about definions of race - smacks very strongly indeed of racism. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC) In Bugs defense (sort of), it's hard to understand this outside of Europe. We don't have Gypsies in North America, and we never hear anything about them, unless it is in fiction or in anecdotes told by tourists about pickpockets or beggars. When we think "Gypsy" we naturally think "thieving bastards", which of course is ignorant stereotyping, but how would we know any differently? (Actually we do have Roma here, but they don't beg on the streets or live separately from the rest of us, like they do, or at least like we imagine they do, in Europe.) Adam Bishop (talk) 16:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Adam, well to be honest, the "thieving bastards" stereotype is pretty much prevalent in Europe as well. A Hungarian party is actually making good progress on fighting "chicken thieves", which apparently in Hungarian is just a code word for "Gypsies", so you can imagine what the prevalent idea about them is. Another anecdote: apparently, some decades ago (but now not particularly often heard anymore), there was a story about how the Roma were cursed to wander the world without a home because it was them who provided the nails for Jesus' crucifixion. Putting aside the ridiculous anachronism of this folk tale, it does demonstrate just how people felt about them. The stereotyping is strong here as well, is all I'm saying. Which, however, doesn't really excuse Bugs' outburst, at least not in a cultured discussion environment as this board is supposed to be. I can understand the IP - one cannot just simply sweepingly accuse a whole group of people of being pickpockets - let's keep chauvinism like that for the discussions in bars and try to maintain some level of discussion here. Innocent until proven guilty and all those civilizational achievements, yes? The IP is trying to draw parallels - let me draw a simpler one, one easier to connect to: it's like saying "all Americans are stupid". God knows you hear that one often enough, and god knows it's far from being true. To Bugs bellow: actually, Roma are really not that hard to make out - they are originally from the Indian subcontinent, and they are fairly easy to spot in a predominantly Caucasian continent like Europe. Especially if you go to a country with relatively few foreigners like my own - if you see an Indian looking chap in London, you might wonder. If you see an Indian looking chap over here though, there's no doubt whatsoever what ethnicity he is. I dare say it's similarly easy to point them out in France. TomorrowTime (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Stereotyping is the word. It's not "racism" as such. How would one even identify a gypsy if one saw one? But the OP is yelling at us about it, when his real complaint seems to be with the government of France, and we don't really have much influence with them fellers. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 17:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC) While you are entilted to your views on what a race is, as our Race (classification of humans) says, it's not a clear cut thing. The same of course with the idea of a Caucasian race Nil Einne (talk) 09:48, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The BBC has a number of articles with more information, see for example: [1], [2], [3], [4]. Gabbe (talk) 05:11, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Stray Cow "Problem" in India

reruns
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Mr John M Baker has shown great understanding in observing that The discussion above was closed, prematurely in my view, and on a false understanding of the facts (i.e., on the assumption that the answer is "that's what they believe"). I'm not sure of the appropriate protocol, but it seemed better to start a new section than to re-open the closed discussion. He is referring to the discussion I opened to investigate into the phenomenon for the page I created Stray Cow Problem in India. The page has been (almost) deleted. Further he cites Marvin Harris to explain the special place of cow in India. He points out to his writings available online, a part of Cows, Pigs, Wars, and Witches: The Riddles of Culture,a chapter "India's Sacred Cow.". My reply -One thing that I can assure you is that compassion for animals, which propels the things like prevention of cruelty to animals in west, is last thing on Hindu mind. In India you will often see villagers guarding a cow just hit so badly by a vehicle or train, trembling with pain and sure to die. They are standing at guard, with lathis etc. around her, lest some westernized type vet come and put her to death ! The idea is it should not be killed no matter in what condition it is in ! Mahatma Gandhi writes to have witnessed a stunt in a Hindu holy festival, a cow with five legs ! On inspection it proved a fraud - the people (maybe brahmins themselves ) had grafted a limb they had amputated from a living calf. It was all done for money - what devoted Hindu would refuse a gift of few rupees to such a special cow ? At a separate incident, Gandhi had to fight fiercely to relieve an ailed calf that was sure to die anyway (guess western education had put some sense in him which later evaporated) Last paragraph of Mr. Harris also agrees with me “ they can tether an old or unhealthy animal until it has starved to death. They cannot slaughter a calf but they can yoke it with a large wooden triangle so that when it nurses it irritates the mother's udder and gets kicked to death. They cannot ship their animals to the slaughterhouse but they can sell them to Muslims, closing their eyes to the fact that the Muslims will take the cattle to the slaughterhouse. These violations of the prohibition against cattle slaughter strengthen the premise that cow worship is a vital part of Indian economic life and culture. ” This is what I find strange, instead of compassion for the animal there is actually an intense indifference that extends to cruelty.  Jon Ascton  (talk) 01:57, 25 August 2010 (UTC) I have left a message at Wikipedia talk:Hinduism-related topics notice board, with a link to this discussion. —Wavelength (talk) 02:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC) C'mon man. There was no need to through links there ! What I want to ask is a simple question concerning psychology Jon, you need to ask a question or this section is going to get closed as well. The RefDesk is not a place for you to get on your soapbox and point out stuff you think is stupid. Matt Deres (talk) 03:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC) edit conflict I was writing my question which was long and complicated when this edit conflict occurred - you inserted your obstructive text in-between. Do you mind if I remove what you have written ?  Jon Ascton  (talk) 04:31, 25 August 2010 (UTC) How about posing a one-sentence question of 25 words or less? ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 09:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC) Agree with Bugs, I am not reading the question or attempting to answer it, it is too long. --Lgriot (talk) 13:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

2010 China National Highway 110 traffic jam

"The traffic jam slowed down thousands of vehicles for more than 100-kilometers and has lasted for ten days." ! (August 10-24 2010)
• I was intending to link this article to some other similar occurences, but there don't seem to be any articles on Wikipedia like this one. Has anything like this happened before? It seems a huge distance and length of time for "thousands" of vehicles to be in a traffic jam. Links to related WP articles if possible please! 220.101 talk^\Contribs 07:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The evacuations for hurricanes such as Katrina might have been in the general neighborhood, but they weren't so long-lasting. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:42, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I saw a reference on DarkRoastedBlend that said that the road to Yakutia in Russia has been known to get blocked up for days on end from bogged vehicles. Steewi (talk) 10:34, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a barely adequate reference here: http://englishrussia.com/?p=315 Steewi (talk) 10:36, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

There's a famous short story by Julio Cortázar, "La autopista del Sur" about people being trapped for weeks in a traffic jam on the outskirts of Paris. It became the basis for Jean-Luc Godard's film Week End. Cortázar was exagerating a bit, but in the 1950s and early 1960s, Paris was notorious for its humongous trafic jams before and after holiday week-ends. --Xuxl (talk) 15:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Wrecks on Interstate 95 and other busy roads often cause traffic jams for miles and hours, but obviously nothing like 10 days.

The longest traffic jam I've ever seen here in the US was on the Pennsylvania Turnpike one Sunday last month. I should add that the Pennsylvania Turnpike, along with the West Virginia Turnpike are quite possibly the scariest roads east of the Mississippi. The Pennsylvania Turnpike is perpetually under construction, but the construction never seems to improve the quality of road. For the most part it's narrow, bumpy, filled with trucks who barrel around the curves, and the speed limit changes every few miles.

When I passed this particular incident (fortunately it was in the other direction), the jam began at mile 110 ("Somerset" interchange) and stretched back to mile 100. It appeared the jam had been caused by an accident that had been cleared. I continued listening to the small travelers' information stations at each exit, and it turns out that the jam ended up stretching about 25 miles back past the previous interchange (exit 91, "Donegal") before finally beginning to loosen. I'm sure it took several hours to travel that distance. I resolved never to complain again about sitting in traffic on I-66. Xenon54 (talk) 16:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I've been in traffic jams for a couple of hours on Highway 401 (Ontario) because of accidents (and long ones, but not that long, on the Queen Elizabeth Way/Gardiner Expressway, not because of accidents but because they're just jammed every day). Adam Bishop (talk) 17:07, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the feedback. Looks like this is the only article we have on a really significant traffic jam. nb. 2010 China National Highway 110 traffic jam is now nominated for deletion! But we'll all be glad to know that the traffic has now been cleared. Nine day China traffic jam cleared 220.101 talk^\Contribs 20:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

brief wherein Nike argues the right to lie.

Hi guys, first of all please see all these references (a simple Google search): Nike right to lie

The first of these says:

“ While Nike was conducting a huge and expensive PR blitz to tell people that it had cleaned up its subcontractors' sweatshop labor practices, an alert consumer advocate and activist in California named Marc Kasky caught them in what he alleges are a number of specific deceptions. Citing a California law that forbids corporations from intentionally deceiving people in their commercial statements, Kasky sued the multi-billion-dollar corporation.

Instead of refuting Kasky's charge by proving in court that they didn't lie, however, Nike instead chose to argue that corporations should enjoy the same "free speech" right to deceive that individual human citizens have in their personal lives. If people have the constitutionally protected right to say, "The check is in the mail," or, "That looks great on you," then, Nike's reasoning goes, a corporation should have the same right to say whatever they want in their corporate PR campaigns.

”

[Emphasis added.]

I realize this summary could be biased, so I would love to look at the original brief wherein Nike purportedly argues the "right to lie", so I can decide for myself whether they really did so. Can someone link to it please? Thank you. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.153.253.222 (talk) 09:38, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Nike v. Kasky. Lots o' links on that page, including to the decisions and briefs. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Hard-boiled detective novel with an amnesia story within the story

Does anyone know of a Hard-boiled detective novel with an amnesia story within the story? The private eye tells the femme fatale about a case he had about a missing man who got hit in the head by a pole and then went off and started a whole new family. --Gary123 (talk) 11:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I vaguely recall reading that story. I am pretty sure it is a story by one of the two masters, Hammett or Chandler themselves, but I can't remember which one. The name of the guy with amnesia is even used as a sort of morale to the story IIRC. I really hope someone here knows the answer, because now you got me wondering about this too. --Saddhiyama (talk) 14:44, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Not the answer, but you might be interested to know that in the novel Traitor's Purse (aka The Sabotage Murder Mystery) by Margery Allingham, the detective-cum-secret agent protagonist Albert Campion spends most of the novel in a state of amnesia, despite which he continues to investigate, and manages to solve, the crime/conspiracy. 87.81.230.195 (talk) 16:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Google searching indicates that the film version of The High Window by Chandler includes amnesia, that there was a radio series episode by Hammett called The Amnesia Killing, and that there were at least two other 1940s films featuring amnesia. 92.15.17.245 (talk) 20:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC).

Dashiell Hammett's The Maltese Falcon is what you're looking for. Flitcraft wasn't hit with a pole, but when passing a construction site was nearly hit with some sort of beam. This quotes the relevant chapter. While central to the book, this story was deemed unfilmable and wasn't in the movie version. Zoonoses (talk) 13:20, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Fiction about controlling people with language

I'm interested in reading stories, and novels (and even non-fiction if it's interesting enough!) where the plot or backstory involves trying to control the general public through the use of language. An obvious one that springs to mind is Newspeak in 1984, but I'm sure there must be more examples. So please chip in with any related (even if it's quite tenuously!) suggestions. Snorgle (talk) 13:26, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Snow Crash features some extensive stuff in which people are literally programmed using neuro-linguistic programming (sometimes in ancient Sumarian). -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 13:29, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

More interesting from a linguistic point of view are Languages of Pao and Ascian language. ("Snow Crash" had many gaping plot holes and basic coherency problems.) AnonMoos (talk) 13:49, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Maybe, but it still rules. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

In the novel Dune, the Bene Gesserit can control individuals through Voice, which technically fits your query. Comet Tuttle (talk) 16:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

In Alphaville (film) people rely on a "Bible" that is actually a dictionary that a tyrannical computer continually "updates" by removing the words for human emotions that it forbids. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, but the Bene Gesserit Voice wasn't a use of language, but a use of tone of voice. Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

It was both; the tone of voice was obviously primary, but the content of the language was significant. "There's no need to fight over me" was one control line that Jessica used, for example. Comet Tuttle (talk) 22:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Another example is the use of fnord in Illuminatus!. --Anonymous, 22:19 UTC, August 25, 2010.

Babel-17 by Samuel R. Delaney is an SF novel about a language created to influence those who speak it. See also the Sapir-Whorf Hypothesis for the underlying theory. Rojomoke (talk) 22:47, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Isn't "control the general public through the use of language" what public relations, press releases and 'media-spin' is (sometimes) all about? (and propaganda of course!) There was the movie Wag the Dog in 1997 where the US Government invented a war that "distracts the electorate from a sex scandal" to bolster their election chances. 220.101 talk^\Contribs 20:29, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

See also Native Tongue by Suzette Haden Elgin. She wrote a woman's language called Laadan that was designed to express feminine things without interference from masculinity. Steewi (talk) 02:39, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

In the 80's I read two separate academic papers about Science Fiction and Linguistics, which covered this topic among others. I haven't got the references but I'm sure you could turn up at least one of them. --ColinFine (talk) 12:18, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

Thank you all for your excellent suggestions and examples! I have plenty of reading to do. Snorgle (talk) 13:08, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

I seem to recall The Space Merchants featuring this, among other things. It's better than it sounds. 86.161.108.172 (talk) 01:22, 30 August 2010 (UTC)

Election campaigns of people with gimmick names (intentional or not) or just strange names

I know there's a person in Virginia running for congress with the name Krystal Ball and a senator in the Philippines named Joker Arroyo. I guess it would be too subjective to have a category with the name of my question above and maybe there wouldn't be enough people in it to make it worthwhile, but there must be more than what I've mentioned. Thanks. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 14:32, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

This guy would probably merit inclusion in such a category. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:40, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

(ec)Austin Mitchell, a fairly successful British MP of a generally serious and non-gimicky nature, changed his name (for a time) to Austin Haddock (although I don't think he ran for election on it). This article mentions him, Mr Pro-Life, Harry Potter, and Seán Dublin Bay Rockall Loftus. The Crosby by-election, 1981 featured the unsuccessful candidature of Tarquin Fin-tim-lin-bin-whin-bim-lim-bus-stop-F'tang-F'tang-Olé-Biscuitbarrel. - Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 14:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, most of the Official Monster Raving Loony Party candidates would qualify. For politicians with strange names, Seymour Cocks is my favourite. Warofdreams talk 15:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The United Kingdom general election, 2010 saw for example a man named "None Of The Above Zero" (formerly named Eric Mutch) on the ballot for Filton and Bradley Stoke as well as "None Of The Above X" (formerly named Terry Marsh) on the ballot for South Basildon and East Thurrock. Neither was elected. Gabbe (talk) 16:51, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

There was also the comedy example of Adam Osen who decided to fight Chingford and Woodford Green as 'None of the Above'. Only he filled in the nomination paper with his forenames "None of the" and surname "Above". As Aaron Aardvark wasn't fighting the constituency, Mr None of the Above appeared at the top of the ballot paper. Sam Blacketer (talk) 21:01, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

In the 1999 election in Ontario, Canada, the provincial NDP was reduced to 9 seats in the legislature. This would have cost them official party status, except that the government decided to change the rules to allow them to remain an official party. Among other things, this would mean that NDP candidates would have to appear on election ballots without a party affiliation shown. One NDP member, a former provincial cabinet minister, announced that she was going to change her name from Marilyn Chorley to Marilyn Chorley-NDP. Presumably she never actually needed to make such a change.

Currently the MPP for the Eglinton—Lawrence provincial riding, where I live, is Michael Colle. I therefore did a double take the other day when I received a flyer asking me to support a Michael Coll, who I had not previously heard of, in the next election for city council! --Anonymous, 22:31 UTC, August 25, 2010.

Former Tennessee politician Byron Looper changed his middle name to "Low Tax." He then murdered his state Senate opponent, Tommy Burks. Amazingly, 1,531 people still voted for Mr. Low Tax. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:10, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The 2003 California gubernatorial recall election travisty that deprived the freshly reelected Gray Davis of his second term included candidates with famous names (but no relationship) such as Edward “Ed” Kennedy, Michael Jackson, Brooke Adams and Robert Dole, as well as highly similar ones like Diana Foss and Dan Feinstein. The job eventually went to some out-of-work actor. DOR (HK) (talk) 07:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

What Science Fiction Novel Is It?

A few months back I read this article about a science fiction novel, whose theme was very interesting and appealing to me, but have since been unable to locate it again.

The few details I do recall about the novel are that a cure for old age had been found, thus rendering people nearly immortal (save for accidents and violent crimes); because of this, the companies no longer needed fresh blood, since the same people could work for years on end, and thus society as a whole was no longer refreshed, economically and politically, leaving the youth disillusioned - and the story focuses on such a young man and how he handles it.

That's as much as I can remember, if anyone would help me find it, I would gladly appreciate it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xall (talk • contribs) 16:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

TV Tropes (which is great for this kind of question) has a section Who Wants To Live Forever, about films, literature etc. that features the downside of immortality. It's so long that you'll age noticeably while reading it. -- Finlay McWalter ☻ Talk 16:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Probably not what you were thinking of, but I remember a short story called, I think, "Outnumbering the Dead", about a such a society, and one of the few people for whom the immortality treatments didn't work. Paul (Stansifer) 18:27, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Who is this princess?

Princess Margriet - identified with the help of Adam Bishop, Marnanel, and others.

Princess Margriet (cropped) - identified with the help of Adam Bishop, Marnanel, and others.

A flickr user uploaded this photograph and described the photographed person as "princess what's-her-name". Who is this woman? The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 17:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Princess Margriet of the Netherlands was in Ottawa in 2002, and it looks like her. (She was actually born in Ottawa, in a hospital which was not in Canada at the time. I am not making this up.) Marnanel (talk) 18:00, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, it was just the maternity ward, but it's still a funny story. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:09, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Anyway, since Margriet doesn't seem to have been in Canada in January 2002, and there is a British flag in the background, are you sure that's her? Adam Bishop (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

No, not sure at all. I didn't notice the month; sorry. Marnanel (talk) 18:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

BTW that flag is the Queen's colour of the Queen's Own Cameron Highlanders of Canada see here, so not British. Mikenorton (talk) 20:23, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Can anybody make out what's on her lapel? Everard Proudfoot (talk) 19:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The title "princess what's-her-name" might be said to suit Marie-Christine von Reibnitz. Whether she was in Canada at the relevant time perhaps someone will find out. Sussexonian (talk) 19:39, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The title might suit her, but it's certainly not Princess Michael of Kent - unless she's had a major cosmetic surgery recently. Anyway, the princess does look like the sister of the Queen of the Netherlands. The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 19:59, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Certainly looks like Princess Margriet of the Netherlands with her husband Pieter van Vollenhoven in Air Force uniform. The car has a Quebec numberplate which would indicate Canada somewhere. MilborneOne (talk) 20:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we've figured out it's in Ottawa already...and it certainly does look like her. I'll hunt through some newspaper archives tonight to see if this visit was mentioned anywhere. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:21, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, so, Margriet was in Ottawa in May, 2002, and that definitely is Pieter and Margriet in the picture. The Flickr page must be mislabelled; we should have looked more carefully, because nowhere in Canada looks like that in January. Not only is there no snow, but no one is dressed for winter, and more importantly, the trees have already blossomed. This took place during the Ottawa Tulipfest, as you can see by the banners in the background. From the articles I've found in the Ottawa Sun, she was there from at least May 9 to at least May 20. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:57, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Well, I've uploaded the photograph to the Commons. The lady in the photograph seems to be Princess Margriet. You've done a great detective work. Thank you for your help! The Spy Who Came in from the Cold (talk) 09:41, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Is social class about income and wealth, or about education and behaviour, or perhaps a combination of both?

Consider the following hypothetical example: a male, 25, barely any better off than a stereotypical British chav or ned in the UK has a job as a cleaner as it's the only job he can get. He swears and drinks and has tattoos and doesn't know much, dropped out of school at 15, and so on, no qualifications, no hope. Then contrast this with a male, 25, who's got a degree in philosophy, thinks a lot and is considerate, but has the same occupation (as a cleaner) because philosophy is not a vocational subject and there are no decent jobs going. Are they of different social classes despite having the same occupation?--CokeIan (talk) 18:06, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The philosophy graduate could get a better job - maybe not as a philosopher, but with a degree like that, he's got plenty of other skills to apply to other jobs. If that's the only job he can get, he's just lazy. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:08, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Social class is purely about what society values at the moment. The caste system in India cares only about your parentage. "Upper crust" cares about money. "Intelligentsia" cares about education. In your example, if beer guzzling < Goethe as light evening reading, then you already know the answer. In the end, however, class has nothing to do with someone being decent or kind, which is the only "class" that (IMHO) really matters. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 18:13, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

[ec] Before we start much of a discussion on this one, I must point out that social class is a nebulous concept, and we need to define our terms. It's tied up with income and wealth, but it's clearly not entirely about such matters, or the Distressed Gentlefolk's Aid Association could never have existed. Education certainly plays a major part in it in the UK: not just what university you went to, but what school. But again, it's not clearly defined anywhere. Furthermore, it's not the same thing across cultures: in the US, it seems to be more of a euphemism for "income bracket" irrespective of previous education. And then again, "working class" and "middle class" can be synonyms for "proletariat" and "bourgeoisie" as terms of art within Marxism, which are much more clearly defined. So let's not have a long argument at cross-purposes. Marnanel (talk) 18:15, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

The Social structure of the United Kingdom article has: "Though definitions of social class vary, most are linked to factors such as occupation, level of education and wealth." If it were determined just according to those three dimensions alone, then, yes, a difference in education level, all else being equal, would result in a difference in social class. Wikiscient (talk) 19:05, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Surely the concept of social class is about more than the job someone does. I, for example, have a reasonably well paid, lower middle class job, yet I come from a working class background, and still see myself as working class. If I were to win the lottery tomorrow and thus never need to work again, whilst living in a big house with a flashy car, I'd still consider myself working class. Maybe that reflects more upon my attitude, and I've therefore missed the point... TicketMan - Talk - contribs 20:52, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

Ideally it should be rather self-defined in this day-and-age, not sure though what is most relevant to the OP about the sociology of this sort of thing. Wikiscient (talk) 21:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

See The Beverly Hillbillies for an example (fictional, but still useful) of TicketMan's statement. Nyttend (talk) 02:16, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

As a western concept class is incredibly important. It may be true in eastern societies too but I don't know enough to intelligently comment on that. Class ironically has very little to do with actual money, and everything to do with perception. The classic American treatise on class was written by F Scott Fitzgerald. For a modern one, you might consider Mad Men. Shadowjams (talk) 07:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, "Class" by Paul Fussell cannot be too highly recommended, although it's about America. As Fussell notes, in America people, when asked, typically claim there are no really significant class distinctions, but when asked about individual people in their social environment, are able to precisely locate them in the class hierarchy. And the only way out is, quite simply, to free your mind. Simple, but not easy.--Rallette (talk) 08:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

For the UK, consider Class by Jilly Cooper, although it is somewhat dated, and Watching the English by Kate Fox, which is more current. In brief, in the UK the two cleaners in the original example are extremely unlikely to be perceived as the same class. TicketMan may consider himself working-class, but (depending on his education and values, but I am guessing a little based on what he has written) most English people who meet him are likely to consider him middle-class. Maybe lower-middle, but working-class is unlikely. My father was born working-class, but he hasn't been working-class for decades. It really is a strange system, full of apparent contradiction, but you don't get to choose what class people consider you. As David Cameron found when he tried to claim he was middle-class! But yes, when Jade Goody earned a lot of money, she remained working-class. Her sons, sent to good schools, are going to be fairly solidly middle-class. 86.161.108.172 (talk) 22:13, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Class is found across cultures, and even across primate species. Emergent behaviors tend not to care about politics. Shadowjams (talk) 08:45, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

According to John Lennon, in Working Class Hero, "...you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see" Bus stop (talk) 08:52, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

John Lennon drops the mike.... walks offstage. Shadowjams (talk) 09:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

A good example of class differences in the USA can be seen in the Montgomery Clift-Elizabeth Taylor film A Place in the Sun. Also Stella Dallas.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 14:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

"And you think you're so clever and classless and free, But you're still fucking peasants as far as I can see." (Lennon) Bus stop (talk) 14:24, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

• • You have left out a key factor: the company both keep. Secondly: Depending on the University the philosopher attended, the philosophy degree may have incorporated Sociology, and other subjects. The degree he would have would, therefore, provide him with a wider scope for employment. MacOfJesus (talk) 20:03, 27 August 2010 (UTC)

"They hurt you at home and they hit you at school,
They hate you if you're clever and they despise a fool,
Till you're so fucking crazy you can't follow their rules,
A working class hero is something to be,
A working class hero is something to be [...]
If you want to be a hero well just follow me."

--more from "Working Class Hero" (Lennon)

:) Wikiscient (talk) 10:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Red flag above London GLC building

Someone told me that when Ken Livingstone was head of the Greater London Council, he would come in early each morning to raise a red flag above County Hall, so that Maggie Thatcher would see it when she arrived at her office across the Thames. Is that true? 86.136.138.232 (talk) 20:04, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

No. Marnanel (talk) 20:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

(EC) Untrue. Perhaps this is a confusion of two stories. Islington council, then under a left-wing Labour administration, began flying the red flag from the town hall on the days of full council meetings in the 1980s. This practice continued until 1995, although the red flag was joined with the flags of the United Nations, the European Union, and the Union Flag. The GLC did not fly the red flag, but it did make use of the fact that the balcony on County Hall is semicircular and part of it faces Parliament. In January 1982, a point when morale in the Labour group of the GLC was low due to the Judges having struck down the policy of reducing public transport fares, a large sign went up on the part of the balcony facing Parliament which read "London's Unemployed Dec-81 326,238" - and until the GLC was abolished, the sign was updated each month giving the unemployment figures.

Other councils did fly the red flag. Lambeth council did so during the 1980s under Ted Knight. The Labour council in St Pancras under Charles Ratchford also flew the red flag in the 1950s. Sam Blacketer (talk) 20:24, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

They did fly the flag under Charles Ratchford, but they started doing that under John Lawrence - see [5]. Sheffield City Council supposedly flew it on May Day during the 1980s under David Blunkett, although strong evidence is hard to come by. Warofdreams talk 20:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

A codicil to that answer: the red flag did fly over County Hall during Ken Livingstone's leadership, but only for May Day in 1985 and the week following it (6-12 May 1985). This flag flying was to celebrate the fourth anniversary of Labour winning control. Sam Blacketer (talk) 20:43, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

At about the same time the Labour controlled Waltham Forest Council (in NE London) devised a flag which was the borough coat of arms on a red background and made a point of flying it instead of the Union Jack outside the town hall. I can't find a reference except that I remember it clearly. Caused a bit of a row locally. At the time, the Union Flag was connected in some people's minds with the right wing of British politics. Alansplodge (talk) 21:28, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

The freedom/seclusion of royal women in ancient Greece

I have understood that upper-class women in ancient Greece lived a restricted and secluded life, and was not allowed to mix with men socially. I just realized, however, that I have only read about this in association to the republic of Athens. It seems to me, that the royal women under the Hellenistic era was not at all secluded but mixed with men at court. Did the seclusion not apply to women at the royal courts? Or did the customs simply became more free under the hellenistic age then earlier? --Aciram (talk) 20:33, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

According to some versions of the legend of Helen of Troy, she played a rather active part in the events surrounding the Trojan War. This is legend, of course, but many aspects of legends reflect facts in the lives of the people whose culture produced the legends. Nyttend (talk) 02:12, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

But that's a much earlier legend, much earlier even than classical Greece, which preceded the Hellenistic period. We haveHellenistic Age, but we don't really have anything about women in ancient Greece - there is an article about women in ancient Sparta, but that's quite different from classical Athens. Certainly there are many more famous Hellenistic women than classical ones; Alexander the Great's mother, and the various queens of Egypt, for example. Maybe this had something to do with increased exposure to Persian and Egyptian culture? (Or it was adopted from Macedonian culture, once Athens faded away?) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:30, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Aciram mentions the Hellenistic era, but he also says the more general "ancient Greece", under which banner would fall the royal women of Homer's day. Nyttend (talk) 03:15, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

True. Also, I mistyped my link, it should be women in Ancient Sparta. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:34, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, the Hellenistic Age is probably a bit late for this question, at that point the Greek values had changed and intermingled with the other Mediterranean cultures. When people say ancient Greece they usually mean Classical Greece. --Saddhiyama (talk) 07:56, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Okay, didn't realise that; I hear "ancient Greece" and I think "Greece before the end of Late Antiquity". Nyttend (talk) 21:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I am happy to see that so many have engaged in my question. I should have specified my question more, though. I know about the freedom of the Spartan women, but they where as I understand an exception. Where royal women more free than other women in Classical Greece? where they allowed to mingle with men at court? Or where women in Greek monarchys in general more free than in Greek Republics? Was, for example, the women at the royal court of Macedonia secluded, or did they show themselves at ceremonies in a gendermixed company? I do not know much about the life of the royal women in ancient Greece except from Sparta, which I understand differed in many ways from the rest of Greece, but reading of the royal women of the Hellenistic era, they do not give the impression of being secluded to an all female environment. And, as a following question; if the freedom om the hellenistic royal women where the result of influences from other cultures, then exactly when did this greater freedom occur, and did it affect also Greek women in general? I hope someone can tell me the answer. I would be grateful. --Aciram (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

PS: I wouldn't assume I am a "he", by the way ;)--Aciram (talk) 17:22, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Oops, sorry; I typically use "s/he", so I don't know why I didn't. Nyttend (talk) 21:04, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Athens seems to have been at the strict end among ancient Greek cities when it came to social seclusion of wives of the middle and upper classes (though I'm not sure what "royal" would mean as applied to Athens...). AnonMoos (talk) 18:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I am aware about Athens, but classical Greece included so many states, among which some where monarchys, such s Epiros and Macedonia.--Aciram (talk) 17:54, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

American Indian Facial Hair

Is it true that American Indian can't grow facial hair? I heard this alot even from some television documentary yet I have seen some Native Americans with facial hair. Why do a majority of Native Americans seem to not have any facial hair?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 22:45, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

<not what you would call a trustworthy source, exactly> Karl May said in his novels they simply pulled it out during adolescence, until it no longer grew. </not what you would call a trustworthy source, exactly> TomorrowTime (talk) 23:16, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I did a google search for "Native Americans and Facial Hair", and had posted like 4-5 semireliable sources, but the spam filter trashed it, and I don't feel like typing the 50 lines of text and links, so let me give the highlights of my now (lost) research. You can do the same search yourself; there's lots of crap to weed through, but most of the actual reliable sources seem to indicate the following regarding the topic:

• Native Americans do generally have the capacity to grow facial hair, though less thick than Europeans.
• Modern Native American groups have more capacity to grow facial hair than their ancestors due to widespread interbreeding with other groups.
• There are contemporarily old paintings from the 16th century which do show some native men with facial hair, indicating that even pre-European contact, some native american men wore facial hair.
• Colonial Europeans reported the following practices among natives regarding facial hair:

• In Maryland, the Native American women shaved the men, which Europeans found odd and ridiculed as a sign of weakness. The need to shave would, of course, indicate the growth of facial hair in the first place
• Others reported that men either plucked or singed their facial hair off; and indicate that this was done either for hygene or cultural reasons.
• Among groups indiginous to North America, peoples of the Pacific Coast are reported regularly to keep their facial hair.

Hope that gives you a start. --Jayron32 04:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I can say that, anecdotally speaking, both American Indians and East Asians that I've known typically have "sparser" facial hair than other races. I worked with someone who was part American Indian, and he once said out loud, "Indians don't grow hair". However, he himself had a mustache. He didn't mean literally that they don't grow any hair at all, just that it's significantly sparser than average. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 09:51, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Also, don't forget that the 1500s is not pre-European contact since the Vikings had built some kind of outpost in Canada 500 years before that. Googlemeister (talk) 13:18, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Incidentally, the idea that Native Americans didn't grow facial hair was one of the reasons that French naturalist Buffon gave in his thesis that the New World was inferior, and less vibrant, than the Old. Thomas Jefferson took Buffon to task in his Notes on the State of Virginia, but I don't remember if Jefferson got around to mentioning facial hair, though Native reproductive capacity was covered. —Kevin Myers 14:02, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Here's a couple examples: Maquinna (File:Maquinna.gif) and Callicum (poor guy has no page, but he's pictured on the right here: File:Callicum_und_Maquinna.jpg). Pfly (talk) 06:46, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

Word process a novel?

hi. How do novelists (those who don't hand-write or typewriter their novels) use word processors (what settings)? Do they use microsoft word? The default "essay-layout" (8.5x11) isn't really the best for writing novels, and I'm trying to write one. 68.249.1.8 (talk) 23:02, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

I suppose it depends on the writers' choice. I'm not a writer, but I have translated some fiction, and I just used plain old Word (well, I switched to OpenOffice since buying a new computer and discovering I'd have to pay some ridiculous amount of money for the privilege of using a thoroughly screwed up last edition of Word, but that's a different story) TomorrowTime (talk) 23:19, 25 August 2010 (UTC)

What's wrong with 8.5"x11"? It's not particular to the form, it's just the size of the paper. People write all sorts of things in standard word processing programs with standard settings. I know lots of people who write non-fiction and they all just use Word. Some of them use OpenOffice. Some like to type in single space. Some double space. Some in Times New Roman. Some in Arial. Some in Courier New. These kind of choices have almost nothing to do with the content itself, and are really not very important. If typing on half-letter paper with 1.5 spaces set in Curlz gets your creative juices flowing, by all means, do it. When you send it to the publisher, they will probably be able to tell you what format they'd like your submission in, and when it ends up in an actual book, most of your formatting will be stripped out by the designer, anyway. --Mr.98 (talk) 01:06, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I think you will get a better answer by asking a group of novelists. I don't think there is one true way to do it. (FWIW, I've written a couple of novels, though nothing's published yet, and I use vi. But I doubt I'm typical.) I have to ask, though, why do you need to set a paper size to write? It's a while since I've used Word, but doesn't it have some sort of arrangement where you get a screenful of text and you can just write stuff? If you do need to set a paper size, try setting it to 6.5" x 4.2", which is the size of a mass-market paperback, so at least you'll get some kind of page count. Marnanel (talk) 01:42, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

For what it's worth, Final Draft (software) seems to be what most screenwriters write with. I was surprised to find out they didn't just use Word like 98% of the rest of the world. Comet Tuttle (talk) 15:03, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I strongly suggest turning off word's "Print Layout" mode, and switching to "Draft Mode". That way the layout of the page doesn't matter at all. In that mode it doesn't break it up onto on-screen "pages", you just get a single giant 'page' that you can scroll through. APL (talk) 15:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I've written a number of short stories and have played around a bit with Scrivener (software). It's nice in that you can organize your writing a bit better than just having one massive text document. Dismas|^(talk) 07:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)