Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Phoolan Devi/archive1
- The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.
The article was promoted by David Fuchs via FACBot (talk) 18 November 2023 [1].
Phoolan Devi edit
Phoolan Devi (1963 – 2001), also known as the Bandit Queen, had a rather unique life. She went from a very poor rural beginning in Uttar Pradesh to being a notorious dacoit (bandit). Her fame grew amongst the lower castes in India whilst she was on the run since she was seen as a Robin Hood figure; she was also involved (to at least some degree) in the Behmai massacre. She negotiated her surrender to the authorities and spent eleven years in prison. Her charges were dropped so she could become an MP in the Lok Sabha, the lower house of India's Parliament, then she was shot to death whilst incumbent. It's quite a story, made more colourful by her tendency to change how she recounted the events of her life to suit different situations. The film Bandit Queen made her globally famous although she herself objected to her depiction and at first wanted it banned in India. This article was improved by a helpful review at GA (by @Larataguera:) and useful comments at PR from (@Alanna the Brave:, @SusunW: and @BennyOnTheLoose:). A note on naming conventions - after several discussions it was decided to refer to her consistently as Phoolan Devi. All constructive comments welcome! Mujinga (talk) 12:32, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
Support from AK edit
Collapsed comments
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'* "the river" Indefinite article or mention the exact river.
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- "There are varying accounts of her life because she told her story in different ways." There got to be a better way to phrase this. "She told her story in different ways" just sounds like something a fan group would say about someone caught lying.
- happy to hear other opinions on this Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- "she told her story in different ways" is definitely an overly nice way of saying she sometimes lied. AryKun (talk) 13:16, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- I'm not sure if we can say she lied - people deal with traumatic events in different ways and in the text we say "Sen notes that it is common for victims of sexual assault to avoid or repress talking about what happened to them." Mujinga (talk) 08:28, 3 October 2023 (UTC)
- "she told her story in different ways" is definitely an overly nice way of saying she sometimes lied. AryKun (talk) 13:16, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- happy to hear other opinions on this Mujinga (talk) 16:33, 27 September 2023 (UTC)
- I can't think of any suggestions for the last comment, so fine with supporting now. AryKun (talk) 15:22, 21 October 2023 (UTC)
Image review edit
- File:Phoolan_Devi-Bandit_Queen.jpg needs a more expansive FUR
- File:Phoolan_Devi.jpg: on what was this image based? Nikkimaria (talk) 03:52, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks Nikkimaria, I'll look into both of these issues Mujinga (talk) 07:48, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria Hopefully these issues have been resolved. Mujinga (talk) 12:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- One remaining issue with File:Non-free_picture_of_Phoolan_Devi.jpg. The "respect for commercial opportunities" field is meant to explain why this usage does not replace the original market role of the work; the current parameter does not explicitly do this, it only explains what that role was. If that can be tweaked a bit this should be good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- I've added "This copy is of sufficient resolution for commentary and identification but too low resolution for commercial use. Copies made from it will be of inferior quality, unsuitable as artwork on pirate versions or other uses that would compete with the commercial purpose of the original artwork." Mujinga (talk) 20:48, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- One remaining issue with File:Non-free_picture_of_Phoolan_Devi.jpg. The "respect for commercial opportunities" field is meant to explain why this usage does not replace the original market role of the work; the current parameter does not explicitly do this, it only explains what that role was. If that can be tweaked a bit this should be good to go. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:26, 9 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria Hopefully these issues have been resolved. Mujinga (talk) 12:17, 8 October 2023 (UTC)
- File:Phoolan_Devi.jpg is a drawing by Dignidad Rebelde (which is "a graphic arts collaboration between San Leandro-based artists Jesus Barraza and Melanie Cervantes"). They uploaded it to Flickr under the license Attribution (CC BY 2.0). The given link (https://dignidadrebelde.com/?page_id=8) to their website doesn't work. Mujinga (talk) 08:53, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- Checking Wikipedia:File copyright tags, I think Attribution (CC BY 2.0) is ok? Mujinga (talk) 08:58, 28 September 2023 (UTC)
- To clarify, my question isn't licensing, but accuracy - see this discussion. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:03, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- File:Phoolan_Devi-Bandit_Queen.jpg - discussed at User_talk:GRuban#Phoolan_Devi and in progress Mujinga (talk) 08:02, 30 September 2023 (UTC)
- I uploaded File:Non-free_picture_of_Phoolan_Devi.jpg with what is hopefully a better FUR Mujinga (talk) 12:40, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Comment by Choliamb edit
The Legacy section of the article currently states that Phoolan Devi: The Bandit Queen, the opera by Shirish Korde and Lynn Kremer, had its premiere at the University of Boston in April 2010. The source cited for this statement is incorrect: the premiere actually took place at the College of the Holy Cross in Worcester, Massachusetts, on April 15, 2010, a week before the production moved to Boston. See my comment (with sources) on the article's talk page. – 14:29, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
- many thanks @Choliamb: for pointing this out, I'll look into now Mujinga (talk) 16:59, 2 October 2023 (UTC)
Source review edit
- spotchecks not done
- Footnote 2: how can this be dated 1991 if the edition is 1995?
- Be consistent in how publication locations are formatted
- FN8 is missing page numbers
- Fn11 is missing author
- Pugazhendhi is missing publisher and location
- What makes The Times of India a high-quality reliable source? See WP:RSP
- FN46 has a typo. Nikkimaria (talk) 01:51, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- FN2 is published 1991, revised and updated 1995
- Should use
|orig-year=
for 1991 and date 1995. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:53, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
- Should use
- I've gone through and hopefully fixed that issue
-
- FN8 - looking into this so not done yet
- FN11 - good spot! added
- "Pugazhendhi, N. (1984). Phoolan Devi (in Tamil)" is all I've got. Should I remove it?
- Yes, per WP:TOI "The Times of India is considered to have a reliability between no consensus and generally unreliable". I've used it seven times, I would say as a news source for an Indian citizen it seems ok - is there any instance that seems unreliable? Most uses also have other cites, this one is standing on its own - "Munni Devi again claimed in 2018 that Devi had been murdered on the order of Umed Singh and argued that Sher Singh Rana had been framed by a government conspiracy". Happy to chop that one out?
- FN46 typo fixed
- Mujinga (talk) 21:03, 18 October 2023 (UTC)
- FN8 is Moxham, an ebook, so I've now linked the relevant chapter in each case. Nikkimaria I think that means I've answered everything, thanks for the source review Mujinga (talk) 14:13, 19 October 2023 (UTC)
- Ultimately if a source is classed between no consensus and generally unreliable, you're going to need a strong argument to support it being considered high-quality for our purposes, and I'm not seeing that here. You say it seems ok - is there something in particular you're basing that on, other than that we're not relying heavily on it? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- OK, I'll go through the ToI refs in the article now - what I meant was that an Indian newspaper covering an Indian person seems "matter-of-fact reporting" to me, but I appreciate you could reply that ToI is "generally unreliable for factual reporting on any topic with political ramifications". Mujinga (talk) 18:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- All ToI links chopped or replaced Mujinga (talk) 19:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Nikkimaria could you take another look please. I'm hoping that both image and source review are a pass, please note I have added a few more sources. Thanks, Mujinga (talk) 12:00, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- All ToI links chopped or replaced Mujinga (talk) 19:34, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- OK, I'll go through the ToI refs in the article now - what I meant was that an Indian newspaper covering an Indian person seems "matter-of-fact reporting" to me, but I appreciate you could reply that ToI is "generally unreliable for factual reporting on any topic with political ramifications". Mujinga (talk) 18:38, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Ultimately if a source is classed between no consensus and generally unreliable, you're going to need a strong argument to support it being considered high-quality for our purposes, and I'm not seeing that here. You say it seems ok - is there something in particular you're basing that on, other than that we're not relying heavily on it? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:42, 8 November 2023 (UTC)
- Images are fine. On sources, looks like there's still a Times ref present. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:17, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
- FN33. Nikkimaria (talk) 14:03, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
Coordinator note edit
This has been open for more than three weeks and has yet to pick up a support. Unless it attracts considerable movement towards a consensus to promote over the next three or four days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 22:10, 20 October 2023 (UTC)
Support from Gog the Mild edit
Recusing to review.
- Moxham: could we have the page ranges for the chapters cited please. And can the cite be narrowed down to less that the whole of both chapters?
- Pugazhendhi: does this work have a publisher, a location and/or an identifier (eg an ISBN or OCLC)?
- "who became a Member of Parliament". Why the upper-case initial letters?
- "who was eventually convicted for the murder in 2014." As you have both boundary dates there is no need for the PoV "eventually".
- "she herself". Delete "herself", who else would she be?
- "She had four sisters and one brother". Who is "She"? Phoolan Devi or Phoolan Devi's mother?
- "who offered ₹100". In Englis please.
- "in Phoolan Devi being ordered by his wife". I think it would be clearer if "his" was replaced by a name.
- "A power struggle within the gang started when ... when they rejoined the gang a power struggle ensued". Is it possible to avoid the repetition?
- "The following year, she returned to Behmai with her gang on 14 February 1981." You don't need "The following year" and "14 February 1981". Perhaps mention the year in the first sentence in the section?
- "one Other Backward Class" is not grammatical. Maybe 'and one member of Other Backward Class group' or similar.
- Ok. Could you ping me when you have a decision. Possibly duck the issue entirely? Eg 'and one other person'.
- Ok.
- changed to Ary Kun's suggestion
- Ok.
- Ok. Could you ping me when you have a decision. Possibly duck the issue entirely? Eg 'and one other person'.
- "and had to shoot her way out." No she didn't, eg she could have surrendered. Please rephrase in encyclopedic language.
- "and still armed with a Mauser rifle". Why "still"?
More to follow. Gog the Mild (talk) 21:19, 22 October 2023 (UTC)
- The first paragraph of "In culture" may work better in the previous section. If only to avoid having readers wondering what her religious conversions and lapses have to do with culture.
- "She dictated her autobigraphy I, Phoolan Devi". Is it known when?
- The article reads "Phoolan Devi received £40,000 from Channel 4 and dropped the complaint. She then dictated her autobigraphy". I assume the date she received the £40,000 and the date of publication are known, so you have your range for the dictation; could this be included in the article?
- Just to be clear: the source states that Sher Singh Rana "claimed he had shot at Phoolan Devi", yes?
- I obviously have failed to communicate the central point here which is that the police didn't believe him when he surrendered himself to justice and said he was the assassin. I'll go back to the source and rephrase Mujinga (talk) 17:40, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- archive.org isn't working for me right now so i'll have to come back on this Mujinga (talk) 17:47, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Rana ... struggled to convince police that he was present at the scene of the crime". Is it known why he would want to?
- "Umed Singh announced before Phoolan Devi's terahvin". Perhaps "before" → 'at'?
- See MOS:CRORE, in particular "Sometimes, the variety of English used in an article may suggest the use of a numbering system other than the Western thousands-based system. For example, the Indian numbering system is conventionally used for certain things (especially monetary amounts) in South Asian English. This is discouraged in Wikipedia articles by WP:Manual of Style § Opportunities for commonality."
- Also see Wikipedia:Manual of Style#Currencies, in particular "Generally, use the full name of a currency, and link it on its first appearance if English-speakers are likely to be unfamiliar with it (52 Nepalese rupees); subsequent occurrences can use the currency sign (just 88 Rs)."
- The section "In culture" is not a summary of Phoolan Devi in culture, but almost entirely about one film. Consider renaming it "Bandit Queen film".
- "In Unnao and Varanasi, the local authorities blocked the installation of the statues." What happened in the other 16 districts?
- interesting question, I'm now deep in the research Mujinga (talk) 16:38, 25 October 2023 (UTC)
- It was quite the political kerfuffle, no statues were installed but the proposers retaliated by offering 50,000 small idols of Phoolan Devi, so rejigged, thanks for the prod to look deeper Mujinga (talk) 12:21, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- "Tributes were paid to her by Akhilesh Yadav of the Samajwadi Party, Chirag Paswan of the Lok Janshakti Party (Ram Vilas) and Tejashwi Yadav of Rashtriya Janata Dal." When?
- "Selected works": the book title should be in title case.
- I've tweaked it. Let me know if it's an issue.
- ah now I understand, thanks!
- I've tweaked it. Let me know if it's an issue.
Gog the Mild (talk) 18:18, 23 October 2023 (UTC)
- Some responses to responses. This is ticking along nicely. Ping me when when you're ready for me to have another look. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
- will do! Mujinga (talk) 18:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild I think I've replied on everything now, thanks for the suggestions! Mujinga (talk) 16:01, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- will do! Mujinga (talk) 18:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)
- Some responses to responses. This is ticking along nicely. Ping me when when you're ready for me to have another look. Gog the Mild (talk) 13:57, 28 October 2023 (UTC)
Good going. I will now reread the whole article to see what further nits I can find to pick at. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:38, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- I will do a little copy editing as I go. Let me know here if you disagree with anything, don't understand something, or I get something wrong. Gog the Mild (talk) 17:04, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the edits! I would only query whether it's correct to say "member of parliament (MP) for Mirzapur in Uttar Pradesh" instead of "Member of Parliament (MP) for Mirzapur in Uttar Pradesh" since I thought it was capitalised when the constituency is given, as for example in Caroline Lucas - "has been the Member of Parliament (MP) for Brighton Pavilion since the 2010 general election." Mujinga (talk) 12:42, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Take 2 edit
- "When the two men could not be found". What two men?
- "She was celebrated among Dalits for ..." Could we have a brief explanation of what a Dalit is.
- "Phoolan Devi was charged ... twenty-two murders". You say earlier that only 20 people died.
- "two Nishad parties laid claim to Phoolan Devi's legacy". Political parties? If so, perhaps insert 'political'.
And that's all I have. Great work. (What's next?) Gog the Mild (talk) 17:47, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- The two men are " Sri Ram Singh and his brother", with the whole bit reading "She returned to Behmai with her gang on 14 February 1981; speaking through a loudhailer, she demanded that the villagers hand over Sri Ram Singh and his brother, then the bandits went from house to house looting valuables.[2]: 150–151 [17]: 324 When the two men could not be found, twenty-two Thakur men were lined up at the Yamuna river and shot from behind". I think that's clear enough as is?
- Writing about anything related to caste seems fraught with difficulties, so I've tried and anyone is welcome to improve
- Hmm yes that's a good point. Sen says: "She is charged with 48 major criminal offences, including 22 murder charges, kidnaps-for-ransom and the looting of villages throughout the area" and I would have said that it must be the 20 Behmai murders and two carried out elsewhere, but in the next sentence Sen says "More specifically, she is accused of killing 22 high-caste Hindu men from Behmai, a remote hamlet that few have heard of, just south of Delhi." So it seems Sen has wrongly written 22 instead of 20. I'll have to check for other sources on this to confirm.
- Added "political" Mujinga (talk) 13:05, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Gog the Mild There does seem to be confusion in the soources between there being 22 and 20 deaths at Behmai, although there is general agreement that she was charged with 48 crimes total, so I've cropped it to "48 crimes, which included kidnapping, looting and murder".
- Re what's next, nothing springs to mind unfortunately! Perhaps another heist, but I think I'd prefer to concentrate on increasing the representation of women at FAC. Mujinga (talk) 13:22, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- Indira Gandhi needs work. :-) Gog the Mild (talk) 16:23, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Drive by comment edit
- 25 citations of the Sen book without page numbers is not satisfactory. It is curious that the book is available for a nominal price on Amazon UK but is expensive on Amazon India. Dudley Miles (talk) 15:37, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- @Dudley Miles page numbers for Sen are all in text, using the "rp" system Mujinga (talk) 17:12, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for explainiing. I see there is an error message in the Behmai massacre section. Dudley Miles (talk) 20:05, 26 October 2023 (UTC)
BennyOnTheLoose edit
I'll try and have a proper look over the next few days, but I don't think I'll have much to say. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 16:34, 27 October 2023 (UTC)
- @BennyOnTheLoose I hope you don't mind me giving you a prod on this? Mujinga (talk) 17:08, 7 November 2023 (UTC)
- Not at all, thanks. BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:01, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- Couple of instances of "Devi" rather than "Phoolan Devi": in Behmai massacre, Surrender, Political career (x2), caption for the Biswas image, Assassination (x2), Legacy (x2). Please check whether these should be amended.
- who became a member of parliament before being assassinated - I quite often see statements about people doing things before they died (rather than afterwards). Consider rewording, but no objection if you decide to retain this form.
- "Since the Mallah subcaste forms part of the Nishad caste, two Nishad political parties laid claim to Phoolan Devi's legacy" - maybe reword as the two parties laying claim doesn't necessarily follow?
- There are varying accounts of her life because she told differing versions of events in her life. - maybe reword to avoid using "life" twice?
- thanks for noticing that, it seems as points are discussed and new edits are made, new errors creep in! hopefully we'll get there soon. cheers for the comments :@BennyOnTheLoose Mujinga (talk) 19:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Mujinga, have you addressed Benny's comments? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- just seeing them now, thanks for the return prod! Mujinga (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- @Mujinga and BennyOnTheLoose: and also Gog the Mild, who read this section; please have a look at the instructions at WP:FAC. The {{tq}} template should not be used at FAC, as it slows down the whole page. I've switched a few of them, but please review throughout, as right now these templates are rendering the entire FAC page not accessible to all, which slows down reviews. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:47, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
- seems to be ok now, thanks to whoever sorted it! Mujinga (talk) 15:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Support: the article has moved on a bit since I last looked, and I have nothing else to suggest. Regards, BennyOnTheLoose (talk) 14:33, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- seems to be ok now, thanks to whoever sorted it! Mujinga (talk) 15:49, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Mujinga, have you addressed Benny's comments? Gog the Mild (talk) 20:13, 9 November 2023 (UTC)
Comment by Dwaipayan edit
I have not read the full article yet. It seems to me the prose is not up yo the mark. I did a mild copyedit, only a couple of paragraphs. The article likely needs copyediting by some experienced editor.--Dwaipayan (talk) 17:10, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Fortunately Gog the Mild has just completed their copy edit! Any other comments welcomed, I've added the year where you asked and if you wanted to improve this edit about Dalits please feel free Mujinga (talk) 13:07, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
- It was a reviewer's copy edit rather than, say, what I would have done if I had picked it up at GoCE. So where possible I went with the existing text. That said, for me it now gets over the "prose is engaging and of a professional standard" bar. Of course, other points of view are available. Gog the Mild (talk) 16:30, 1 November 2023 (UTC)
Comments from Kavyansh edit
- who became a member of parliament before being assassinated. — Of-course you can't become MP after being assassinated. It may be just me, but this phrasing seems a bit odd. The way we put it, it seemingly implies that she was assassinated just after a few days in office (like the case with William Goebel). Would it be an improvement if we say something like, "who served as a member of parliament until her assassination"? There may be more better ways to put it, I am by no means an "expert" on prose, but, its just my opinion ...
- Not a deal-breaker for me, but do we really need the state of in "a village in the state of Uttar Pradesh". We have already linked UP.
- After this massacre the Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh resigned — My reading of MOS:JOBTITLE suggests that 'chief minister' should not be capitalized. Check for other instances of the same throughout the article.
- and being sexually abused by various people — by various men, I guess.
- I guess we have a bit of inconsistency with the usage of Oxford comma. her family grew chickpeas, sunflowers and pearl millet. v. offered 100 Indian rupees (equivalent to ₹400 or £4.20 in 2023), a cow, and a bicycle to her parents. v. places such as Devariya, Kanpur, and Orai. v. kidnapping, looting and murder. Kindly check for the entire article.
- The standard practice in Biographical articles is that after introducing the subject, they are referred by their surname in the text. That, however, is not an absolute requirement, and only thing we look for is consistency. I see that for most of the article, we have referred to the subject by her complete name "Phoolan Devi". Exceptions to this are Instead, her mother sent Devi to stay with a distant relative. Same goes with 'Mala Sen'. We have already introduced her in the third para of early life, and for much of the text, she has been referred by her last name. In the last para of early life, however, we have Mala Sen asked her if she had been raped, again repeating her full name. Kindly check this for the entire article, and do let me know if I am misinterpreting something.
- Regarding Phoolan Devi, there's been quite a lengthy debate on the naming convention and we've settled on using her whole name, so thanks for pointing out there were a few "Devis". Regarding Mala Sen, it's a different issue in that the name "Sen" seems to me rather confusing unless it is clear that we are referring to Mala Sen, so I've used "Mala Sen" when mentioning her again and "Sen" when she has just been mentioned, I hope that makes sense. It certainly isn't standard practice but I think if I only used the full name on first mention, it would be confusing. Not particularly stuck on this rationale though. Mujinga (talk) 20:30, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- beside the Yamuna river — 'r' in river should be capitalized, I guess.
- The director of the Women's Feature Service — Shouldn't we mention their name as well?
- not sure here, the director is/was Anita Anand, who is neither Anita Anand nor Anita Anand (journalist) Mujinga (talk) 13:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- Phoolan Devi was charged in absentia with — We haven't italicized the term in the lead
- then prostrated herself in front of Arjun Singh, Chief Minister of Madhya Pradesh, with 8,000 people watching — check for JOBTITLE, and with 8,000 people watching should be with approximately 8,000 people watching
- Phoolan Devi faced the 48 criminal charges — We have been already told this
- The Kanpur district court — Should be 'Kanpur District Court'
- The article Assassination of Phoolan Devi should be a redirect to the assassination section of this article
- "At 13:30" — 13:30 where? Specify IST
- Ashok Roy made the 1984 film Phoolan Devi — Our article says 1985. Of-course that has nothing to do with this FAC, but can you just recheck the year.
Fantastic work! I can only imagine how hard it must have been to research and write such a complex subject. I sort of agree with @Dwaipayan, and have tried to be a bit nit-picky, so apologies for that. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 11:45, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the comments! Will respond later today or tomorrow Mujinga (talk) 15:48, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate the comment about it being a complex subject, it is really is. The nitpicks have been really handy, sadly I've run out of time today but hope to finish off tomorrow. Mujinga (talk) 21:00, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks again Kavyansh.Singh, I've replied on everything now, see what you think Mujinga (talk) 13:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- I'll try revisiting this within a day or two. – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 21:41, 12 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks again Kavyansh.Singh, I've replied on everything now, see what you think Mujinga (talk) 13:57, 11 November 2023 (UTC)
- I appreciate the comment about it being a complex subject, it is really is. The nitpicks have been really handy, sadly I've run out of time today but hope to finish off tomorrow. Mujinga (talk) 21:00, 10 November 2023 (UTC)
- Second read
- another wife who enjoyed mistreating her. — Not a major issue, but if we could rephrase it as "another wife who often mistreated Phoolan Devi.", I think it would be a bit more encyclopedic.
- Indian feminist groups were recording many — "Indian feminist groups recorded many". Sounds better?
- Do the sources discuss Phoolan Devi what we claim her to be in the infobox: a "Human rights activist"?
Looking much better! – Kavyansh.Singh (talk) 12:18, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Removed human rights activist, on the other two I think it's the same issue, a use of tense which reads fine to me in BrEng, but maybe doesn't in USEng? The article is templated with Template:Use Indian English but I don't know if that affects this particular discussion. I'll ask Grnrchst for another opinion, I also wouldn't be fussed if you wanted to change it. Mujinga (talk) 17:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's clear either way, but aye, I think "recorded" reads better than "were recording". --Grnrchst (talk) 21:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for the opinion Grnrchst, @Kavyansh.Singh I've changed them both to your suggestion. Mujinga (talk) 11:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- It's clear either way, but aye, I think "recorded" reads better than "were recording". --Grnrchst (talk) 21:03, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Removed human rights activist, on the other two I think it's the same issue, a use of tense which reads fine to me in BrEng, but maybe doesn't in USEng? The article is templated with Template:Use Indian English but I don't know if that affects this particular discussion. I'll ask Grnrchst for another opinion, I also wouldn't be fussed if you wanted to change it. Mujinga (talk) 17:25, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
Comments by Grnrchst edit
Hope it's ok if I leave some comments on this. This article looks fantastic and I know you've put a lot of work into it, so I'm more than happy to give it a look over. --Grnrchst (talk) 13:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Lead
- "She became a heroine to the lower castes for being a Robin Hood figure who punished her rapists and evaded capture by the authorities." Sentence structure here is a bit odd on first glance. Consider a slight rewrite?
- Damn I made an answer here but wikipedia went down earlier and it must've got lost. I see what you mean and suggested "When she punished her rapists and evaded capture by the authorities, she became a heroine to the lower castes who saw her as a Robin Hood figure" Mujinga (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- "She was assassinated outside her house by Sher Singh Rana" What motivated the assassin?
- "which told her life story in a way she did not approve of." Might be worth saying why she didn't approve of it? Even a little detail would go a long way in clarifying what she didn't like about it.
- Early life
- "Given names vary between texts" Worth clarifying that this is about the village, as I was confused by the term "given name" which I usually see applied to people. Maybe move the explanatory footnote inline with the village name itself?
- "Hindu caste system in India" Hrm, this is potentially problematic. The Indian caste system isn't limited to Hindu faiths, nor are all Hindus believers in it, and there are different understandings of what it is. I would recommend either dropping "Hindu" as an adjective or linking instead to the Hindu varna system, if it's necessary to be specific.
- "Indian society is divided into four castes or social classes." Again, this is describing the varna system. "Indian society" implies something much broader.
- "the uncle"; "the family". The use of "the" here is a bit odd. Why not use "her"?
- Devi's full name is used a lot in this section, is there a reason for this?
- "Puttilal had taken another wife who enjoyed mistreating her" His new wife enjoyed mistreating Devi?
- "the parental home" Again, shouldn't this be "her parental home"?
- "recording many instances of women being attacked and murdered by men" Do we have more specific figures than "many"? Gender violence is a big issue, so I think showing the magnitude may help.
- "The director of the Women's Feature Service commented" Might be worth a wee clarification that this was specifically in relation to Devi's case.
- Bandit Queen
- In the explanatory footnote, you should probably use semi-colons instead of commas to separate different author's depictions
- "Vikram Mallah and Phoolan Devi fell in love." Think this could be moved earlier in the paragraph, so just after it mentions Vikram killing Gujjar, as it would contextualise their relationship better than having it after details of the gang's exploits.
- "They found and punished Puttilal" Punished how?
- Sen quotes Phoolan Devi saying: "All through this I was beating him black and blue, using the butt of my rifle, my hands, my feet. “We tied up Puttilal and his wife Vidya and we left the village with them. I wanted to kill them in the vicinity of the Sikandra police station and leave a note that this would be the fate of any man who married two wives. “When we were barely a mile from the police station, I changed my mind and decided not to kill them but to let them live to tell the tale. This time I beat them both, so much so that Puttilal lost two of his teeth and I broke his arms and legs, before leaving them there, tied together, with a letter to the daroga [police inspector], claiming responsibility for the act."
- "she was celebrated by most of the Indian mainstream media" How are we defining "most"?
- Spotcheck: Only The Guardian describes her as "India's answer to Robin Hood". Neither BBC News nor Signs describe her as such. Only BBC News mentions the Indian media, which it says "glorified [her]" and "wrote tirelessly of her exploits". This sentence should probably be rewritten, as it seems like their might be some synthesis of sources here.
- yeah I think you're right about it needing tweaking and actually last time I read this through, "most of the Indian mainstream media" did seem a strange turn of phrase. BBC does say "one of India's most famous outlaws" though. signs p125 introduces her as "Phoolan Devi, a legendary lower-caste woman dacoit in India who was known for raiding villages with her gang and redistributing wealth from upper-class, upper-caste landlords to poor landless villagers" which I would take as summarisable by "a Robin Hood figure" but now I'm wondering if that's a helpful comparison. in any case removed "by most of the Indian mainstream media"
- Spotcheck: Only The Guardian describes her as "India's answer to Robin Hood". Neither BBC News nor Signs describe her as such. Only BBC News mentions the Indian media, which it says "glorified [her]" and "wrote tirelessly of her exploits". This sentence should probably be rewritten, as it seems like their might be some synthesis of sources here.
- "She was seen as an incarnation of the Hindu goddess Durga" By who?
- Spotcheck: Journal of Religion and Violence seems to say she was seen this way by "the down-trodden" (dalits?), and that she saw herself this way. BBC News source verifies the thing about the doll.
- Think the first couple sentences of the second paragraph could be condensed a bit, so as not to take focus away from Devi.
- Behmai massacre
- Do we know whereabouts Behmai is?
- yes it's in Uttaer Pradesh but presumably too small to have (yet) received a wikiarticle. it's in the same area as the other events, not sure how to identify it further Mujinga (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Just saw it called a "north Indian village" in Fernandes which doesn't help much Mujinga (talk) 18:14, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- "Two survived and twenty died" Order should probably be swapped.
- "When she was later arrested in 1983, Phoolan Devi" Maybe swap "she" and "Phoolan Devi" here? As it initially is unclear whether the sentence is describing her or Indira Gandhi.
- Surrender
- "nearly caught" How?
- "prostrated herself" Link to Prostration
- Political career
- "joining others such as Bhagwati Devi and Shobhawati Devi" No relation, I assume?
- Might be worth mentioning who her opponent/predecessor/successor was. Currently it just says she was defeated by a BJP candidate.
- Was her losing her seat related to her charges? That's what this paragraph seems to imply.
- Link to Umed Singh (if this is the same person of course).
- "Hindu caste system" As per above, should clarify that this is the varna system and probably delink caste system in India.
- How was she able to regain her seat? (More info about the elections would be good, if there's sourcing for it)
- "she later renounced Buddhism" Any reason given for why?
- Bandit Queen film
- If Devi disputed the accuracy of the film, does she also think similarly of Mala Sen's biography? Or was it that loosely adapted?
- this is another tricky one .. Phoolan Devi was interviewed by Sen and was broadly ok with the resulting book, then it was adapted and although Sen got the credit it was actually her exhusband Farrukh Dhondy who adapted it and "jazzed it up", then the director Shekhar Kapur imposed his narrative on it. so the film isn't a reflection of the book whch is quite nuanced Mujinga (talk) 13:57, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- It might be worth adding some information about the release and reception of Mala Sen's biography. This section could then be expanded into "Media depictions" or something?
- hmm yes this is an interesting one, I'll do a source sweep Mujinga (talk) 17:58, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- still busy with this Mujinga (talk) 11:28, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- it does seem strange to me but can't find very much on this. a lot of people refer to it but don't really say much about it. i could only find one review. maybe the book became more famous after the film. Mujinga (talk) 16:36, 16 November 2023 (UTC)
- Assassination
- Is it common to contract "rupees" to "Rs"? I've not seen this before.
- Legacy
- "Devi is an example of a Third World postcolonial subject who is aware of the racist and patronising Orientalist attitudes that First World analysts have of her" Could you explain further? What attitudes specifically?
- First time round I said "Media theorist Sandra Ponzanesi sees Devi's life as an exemplary case of a postcolonial subject attempting to preserve their agency in the face of an Orientalist gaze" and was asked to make it clearer. I'm mot getting much from the article reading it again but I think generally the point is that Phoolan Devi is avoiding being pigeonholed as the vulnerable poor lower caste person with no agency and also being the lower class hero with no imperfections. Mujinga (talk) 11:16, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
- "Ashok Roy made the 1984 film [...]" As these films were made and released during her life, it may be worth moving up into the proposed "Media depictions" section.
- I suspect the paragraph about the court case will be updated as it progresses.
- "Also in 2021, tributes were paid to Phoolan Devi" Did anything prompt this series of tributes?
All in all, this is a wonderfully-written article that has taught me a lot about this very interesting person. My comments are mostly minor, but there's a few cases I think where the article is potentially falling short of a quick-support. Ping me when you've responded to these and I'll be happy to take another look. Excellent work, as always! --Grnrchst (talk) 13:34, 14 November 2023 (UTC)
- Thanks for taking a look! I'll hope to reply soon Mujinga (talk) 10:18, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Still busy with replies, could I ask you to give an opinion on Kavyansh.Singh's second round query on tense as well? Thanks! Mujinga (talk) 17:38, 15 November 2023 (UTC)
- Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs talk 15:20, 18 November 2023 (UTC)
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