User talk:M. Dingemanse/Archive14

EDIT

My talk archives

• Archive 1 (back to August 2004)
• Archive 2 (October - December 2004)
• Archive 3 (January - February 2005)
• Archive 4 (March 2005)
• Archive 5 (April - May 2005)
• Archive 6 (June 2005)
• Archive 7 (July - August 2005)
• Archive 8 (September - October 2005)
• Archive 9 (November - December 2005)
• Archive 10 (January - February 2006)
• Archive 11 (March - April 2006)
• Archive 12 (May - August 2006)
• Archive 13 (September - October 2006)
• Archive 14 (November 2006 - January 2007)
• Archive 15 (February 2007 - onward)

Couldn't add a legend to IDP's_in_Northern_Uganda.png

I added a legend to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:IDP%27s_in_Northern_Uganda.png but then found that I couldn't upload it. How strange! The wikipedia says "there is no file with that name". I think it's because of the ' in the name of the file. Maybe it's a bug in the mediawiki? I was then going to change the name of the image to drop the ' but I couldn't find a way to rename it either. Maybe that has to be done by an Administrator. Jeff Carr 19:41, 4 November 2006 (UTC)

Endangered languages

Hi Mark,

Good catch. I have a confession. I used WP:AWB to find articles linked to Endangered language. Then as I was processing the list, I tried to read the text to see if the article really did describe an endangered language:

• On a few pages, the artice described both endangered languages plus other languages, which may have been either non-endangered or extinct. I added those articles to the category on the principle that if an endangered language is described (not mrely mentioned) on any given page, it is of interest to the category "Endangered languages."
• Moreover, I may have completely muffed a few as well. I hope those are rare.

I felt OK about doing this because:

1. I added far more legitimate pages than bad ones, and
2. more importantly, I'm making a commitment to go back through and check them.

Actually, I'm gonna totally populate the List of endangered languages page with every single language listed in UNESCO's Red Book. That will be in a couple weeks, though I may add a bit here and there in between.

I have noticed your name on many related pages. I sincerely appreciate your work.

Let me know if you have further questions. I hope my categorization didn't disturb anything.

Later, --Ling.Nut 12:57, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• PS. Ah. I see by your edit summary that you think it is not best to categorize a group of languages within Category:Endangered languages unless all languages in that group are endangered. That's OK of course; I was just thinking (as I said above) that a category functions as a place to find further info, and should include a group in which some but not necessarily all languages are endangered. But I am far from being committed to this viewpoint. I was just thinking. --Ling.Nut 14:01, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

• Followup: I re-checked (from among those I added to the cat) all articles about a group of languages rather than an individual language. They all seem legit even by the stricter definition that you apply. An indeterminate case is Chibchan languages, which includes the text, "Most of these indigenous languages are severely endangered...". That doesn't say whether there are some that are "endangered" but not "severely endangered." I lean toward leaving this in the category, but please do remove the cat if you feel it is inappropriate. A million thanks!--Ling.Nut 14:13, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Thank you for your replies and for double-checking. Yeah, I can see why it makes sense to have an article on a group of languages in the category even if not all languages of that group are endangered. I happen to have some background knowledge on the Maa languages (and to a lesser extent the Adamawa languages), that's why it struck me as an inappropriate characterization of these groups of languages. Maa especially is a clear case of a language family that is almost the opposite of being endangered, since both Maasai and Samburu are somewhat notorious for being the new language of many smaller peoples that have abandoned their own language (see Dorobo for example). And Adamawa is simply too vast a group to be characterized as endangered.

We may differ a little bit in our conception of the meaning and use of categories on Wikipedia but I think you made a good call in the other cases so far as I checked. Thanks for the agreeable way of handling these matters! — mark ✎ 21:21, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

African language map series

Can you please address the concerns I pointed out here, please? Since you made a number of these maps, I imagine there are 3 or 4 maps that will have to be corrected for the Nilo-Saharan languages Kunama, Nara, and Nubian. — ዮም | (Yom) | Talk • contribs • Ethiopia 18:03, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Replied over there. — mark ✎ 18:38, 9 November 2006 (UTC)

Extinct & endangered African languages

Hi Mark,

The Extinct & endangered African languages sandbox is slightly more coherent now. There are two main sections: one is composed of several tables, and the second is the alphabetical listing that you may remember. The contents are not the same; they need to be merged. Moreover, the extinct languages need to be put onto a separate page (but that's another project).

Any time you have free time, here and there, feel free to drop by and fix an entry or two. I'm not asking for any big commitment; just whenever you have a free moment and want to do something different.

Thanks! --Ling.Nut 17:19, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note, I'll see about tackling a red link now and then and maybe I can help cleaning up the list once in a while. Endangered languages are important. Best, — mark ✎ 20:30, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

linked refs for "speakers" and "ethnic pop"?

Hi again Mark,

Don't miss my message just above this one ;-)

You seem to know the people working in African languages. Can we get some sort of a consensus on (at least) two details?

Some (perhaps many) articles seem to have references sections that do not link back to the text of the article (see Zenaga language). I don't necessarily wanna be radical and suggest that every fact should be so linked (I think they should, but some folks will disagree). First of all, it clutters up shorter articles; second, some info is relatively stable; and third it might take forever to cite every single fact.

However, can we get some sort of consensus that really dynamic info (here I have in mind "number of speakers" and "ethnic population" should be fully cited and linked back to the appropriate reference? I think this info needs to be tracked more closely than some other facts may...

Thanks for your time, --Ling.Nut 18:03, 11 November 2006 (UTC)

I fully agree and this is a sensible proposal. Have added my voice over at WikiProject Languages. — mark ✎ 20:31, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, Mark, I saw that posting of yours. I didn't want to reply in that forum because I didn't want to "hog the floor." I'm hoping others will have something to say as well.

I suppose this idea could be one project in the WikiProject Endangered languages and language revitalization (or Wikiproject Biolinguistic diversity.. or.. whatever).

Thanks!--Ling.Nut 21:32, 12 November 2006 (UTC)

New Picture on Logba language

Mark - I think you were a bit quick on the trigger there - i was still trying to edit the page but you cut in - go easy, I use this very rarely so have to fiddle a lot to get the effect I am intending. Anyhow I'll leave you to work out where to put the picture I have contributed. I think getting rid of the friends of Lodba link is a mistake - there are hundreds of good pictures there as well as videos with sound (songs in local langauge), but maybe you havent had the chance to look yet? A description of a language spoken by 7000 people without pictures sounds or people is pretty dry stuff you know! User:Excalibur (UTC)

Hi Excalibur,

I only wanted to help you, sorry for interrupting and for coming across curtly! As for the Friends of Logba link, I certainly didn't mean to imply that it's useless, just that it would be much more suitable in an article about the Logba people (as I said in my edit summary).

I did look at the site, by the way; but from the front page it is not clear where the videos can be found. After some searching, I found them on the page on Logba Tota Primary School, so I think the direct link you have added is a good solution. Thanks for that, Logba materials are quite scarce on the internet! — mark ✎ 18:04, 13 November 2006 (UTC)

Hi Mark, I couldnt agree more - there can't be many Wikipedians (even abjectly poor ones like me) who have visited this charming spot, let alone spent long enough there to record its manifest delights. The idea of a "People of Logba " page is a nice one, but I'm afraid I would have to leave that to my very good friend and neighbour Aku Sika - as a native of the the village she knows a lot more about it than I will ever do. She is in touch with other Logbans (?) in the UK, so if you ever need any help on the linguistic side, I'm sure she could help. Hope you enjoyed watching the video as much as I enjoyed being there to make it!

By the way, although not strictly Logba, I picked up an excellent CD recording at the British Library on Friday of Ewe drumming and singing from Dzodze, Ghana - the website reference to this project is www.cepafrica.org - You might be able to use this or link it somwhere useful. And if you like any of my other photos at the friends of Logba gallery (just Google for it) please feel free to use them here - I'm not possessive.

Excalibur 14 November 2006

Hello Excalibur, thanks for the offer concerning the photos, it would be great to use some more. By the way, would it be possible for you to upload them in a higher resolution?

As for the videos, it was confirmed to me by a native speaker of Ewe that the songs are in Ewe, not in Logba. I suspected so much when I saw that the videos were recorded on a school. Thing is, there is much influence of Ewe on Logba, and education in the area is mostly in Ewe. So at school, they learn Ewe songs. (In fact, Rudolph Plehn already wrote more than a century ago that the Logba don't sing their own (Logba) songs.) Still, it's fine to put it up at Logba people since that's what they are. But regrettable, it's not the Logba language.

I have something in the works though; I think we'll have audio samples of real Logba in the article within a month.

Best, — mark ✎ 09:26, 15 November 2006 (UTC)

Very interesting! Anyhow I'll certainly upload a few higher resolution pictures shortly. I might also take another look at the caves description - as far as I am aware there is only one cave and it is about 30 foot long with a rather small column, an aven, some immature gour dams and some very unimpressive stal and flowstone development. Its unusual because there is so little karst in Ghana, but in global terms its very unremakable. (I'm a better speleologist than linguist) - however the cliffs are truly spectacular by comparison. Excalibur 16:06, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Added a larger file version at [1] Excalibur 17:45, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Great! (BTW, you can link to images without including them by prefacing 'image'with a double colon, as in [[:Image:Logbagirlbig.JPG]], which yields Image:Logbagirlbig.JPG.) I have deleted the smaller one and changed it in Logba language also. Thanks again! — mark ✎ 17:56, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

No problem Mark: heres three more images to spice up the page:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Logbakitchen.JPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Lobgaschool.JPG http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Logbavillage.JPG

Hope you can use them! Excalibur 18:37, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Certainly! I think I'm going to make a start on Logba people, based on some material from Logba language and whatever other sources I can find. Your pictures will look great in the article. — mark ✎ 09:32, 20 November 2006 (UTC)

Bantu-Please clarify

I made an attempt at what I thought was the correct interpretation based on a cursory reading of Bantu languages and because the paragraph is talking about a single language (which I assumed to be proto-Bantu). This was apparently incorrect, but you have left the original confusion intact. Why is Bantu being referred to as a single language? Your help in clarifying this paragraph would be appreciated. Thanks. Ufwuct 21:15, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. As a linguist I'm used to the use of 'Bantu' as short for 'the Bantu family', that's why I didn't notice the unclarity. I have now clarified it. My problem with your original edit was that it suggested that Greenberg compared the hypothetical Proto-Bantu language with other (Bantoid) languages, which is not the case as Greenberg's method for his 1963 The Languages of Africa mostly involved mass lexical comparison of synchronic (as opposed to diachronic) linguistic materials. Regards, — mark ✎ 21:39, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

The proto-XXX reconstruction is the method I was most familiar with, so I perhaps didn't word it carefully enough in my edit, and just edited according to my biases. Thank you for your clarification. Ufwuct 15:32, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Sukuma

Hey, have you been watching the Sukuma page? Someone's adding (poorly formatted) info that has a plausible ring to it, bt I have no idea if it's factual or not. It's certainly uncited.

Cheers, --Ling.Nut 23:44, 16 November 2006 (UTC)

I haven't. For now I have pulled out the additions because I feel we really are too lenient generally in applying WP:V. — mark ✎ 08:39, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

Systemic Bias in Linguistics

Great list... I look forward to contributing to some of these. As for your other comment re: embodiment - I have added a cite in the article itself. Great to have discovered this group working on Systemic Bias... mukerjee (talk) 07:25, 18 November 2006 (UTC)

Languages of Uganda

Namna gani Mark? Excuse the delay, I am moving house, so I'm a bit busy. Thanks for removing that unecyclopedic anecdote at Languages of Uganda, as you know, I tried to remove it some time back. Regarding the sentence on the history of Uganda, political rivalry and language, I can see how that connection can be made, but it is a case of oversimplifying the causes of Uganda's problems issue, and seems like original research. On the other hand, the claim is sufficiently weasel worded, so as to make it difficult to argue against. Like you said, the tone is a bit awkward. User:A12n had some complaints about it, and I too believe it should be removed. I will proceed and do so. --Ezeu 19:43, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

I see now that you have removed it, but there was a duplicate of the same assertion in the lead paragraph - that I have now removed as well. --Ezeu 19:51, 23 November 2006 (UTC)

Salama tu. Habari za nyumba yako?

Very good. I now note that I did say myself that 'the sourced statement of course can stay' on Talk:Languages of Uganda. I have since changed my opinion and I'm glad it's gone. What we need is a more balanced discussion. — mark ✎ 18:58, 28 November 2006 (UTC)

Al-Umari

I have noticed that you have previously renamed this article. Can you please rename it to Chihab Al-Umari or something? Al-Umari (or Al-Omeri) tribe with different names (e.g. Farooqi) has millions of members and I wish to write an article. I can include his name in the list of prominent Al-Umaries. Thank you. Hassanfarooqi 20:53, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Done. See here for the request that led to the previous move. Best, — mark ✎ 22:54, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

Sso (rite)

I've finished the article on the Sso rite of passage from Cameroon. Thanks for your help! — BrianSmithson 08:50, 30 November 2006 (UTC)

Comment

I replied to your question about my use of Barnstars, which is now located at Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)/Archive (but not for long). —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Sharkface217 (talk • contribs) 03:29, 3 December 2006 (UTC).

Thank you

I just wanted to thank you for taking the time to drop by the AFD discussion. Even though you reached a different conclusion than I did, I appreciate you taking the time.

Thanks,

Linux monster 22:19, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Okay! Thanks for the friendly note, I appreciate it. — mark ✎ 22:23, 5 December 2006 (UTC)

Your input is requested

Your input would be appreciated at this Request for Comments. Kelly Martin (talk) 19:48, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

I think I'm going with others here in noting that this has already been discussed far too often. There is enough material in the previous RfC's and I don't see the need for another one. — mark ✎ 20:16, 6 December 2006 (UTC)

yo.wikipedia.org

I am thinking about taking up your challenge to help with wikipedia in Yoruba. I speak Yoruba imperfectly, but I can construct simple sentences as I grew up in Nigeria and am Yoruba. My question is will this primarily involve translation of en.wikipedia items or whole new articles? I can be reached at tunde_isathotmaildotcom —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Disaggregated (talk • contribs) 07:33, 11 December 2006 (UTC).

to prefix or not to prefix

Mark, thanks for provoking a short discussion on this, on the Sotho language (or rather Sesotho language) page. I added a last few comments yesterday. I think the reasoning is pretty clear, and that pursuing the "prefixful" route is really unnecessary, and kind of gnostic (involves special knowledge, or even perhaps pseudo-knowledge). My last comment was simply that the title (nay, appellation) of the Sotho language page is out of sync with respect to the rest of the Southern Bantu pages. No matter how developed or limited each one is, it would be good if they were streamlined. I leave it to you or others who have the know-how or where-with-all to guide any name changes, if such need be made. It seems that one or two readers feel very strongly about it all (but the pro-prefix arguments seem to me well-intended but not linguistically coherent). I can't figure out how representative the strongly pro-prefix reader is. Ah well. So, I'm done with my 2c worth for now. If there's anything further, let me know on my talk page.

Thanks, and cheers for now, NguniTraveller 20:25, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for taking the time to share your thoughts, Simon. To my mind, all that can be said about it has been said. I'll take care of the move, if we get there. — mark ✎ 20:53, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Graphics Lab

I saw your name listed on Wikiproject Illustration or the list of graphic artists, and I thought I'd let you know that a Graphics Lab has been created on EN. Based on the highly successful French and German graphics labs, it seeks to better organise and coordinate our graphic design and photo-editing efforts. Up until now, there has been no common space on EN where users could ask for maps, charts and other SVG files to be created. What's more, the Graphics Lab has discussion boards, tips, tools and links; in sum, a good common workspace. Come help us out! The infrastucture is already in place, and now we need participants. :) --Zantastik talk 00:40, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

South African languages

Hi Mark, I added a paragraph on Wikipedia:WikiProject_South_Africa. Hope that's ok. I'm new to this, but it seems that so much can still be done on SA language stubs. — Sotho of the South 14:21, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. I have replied on your talk page because I had already started there before I saw your comment here. — mark ✎ 14:33, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Ngoni people

You've become my go-to guy for Africa. Do you know anything about the shtuff recently added to Ngoni people? If not, do you know who i could ask?

Thanks! --Ling.Nut 20:25, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Hmm, you mean this edit? It doesn't look too bad on the face of it (the link to the South African Nguni peoples is quite widely accepted, cf. for example Stirnimann 1963 or Mtenje & Soko 1998), but judging from its formatting and the language used it may well be a verbatim copy of some offline source. It may come from Ebner (1987) though I can't check from where I are now.

• Ebner, Elzear (1987) The History of the Wangoni. Ndanda: Peramiho.
• Mentje & Soko (1998) 'Oral traditions among the northern Malawi Ngoni', Journal of Humanities (University of Malawi), 12, 1-18.
• Stirnimann, Hans (1963) 'Nguni und Ngoni : eine kulturgeschichtliche Studie', Acta ethnologica et linguistica, vol. 6. Vienna: Österreichische Ethnologische Gesellschaft.

It may be best to move it to the talk page pending verification. We should be really careful with unsourced information. — mark ✎ 20:44, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

e marc, you really should consider directly alerting me to these kinds (South African) of issues when they do emerge, hey? See my "rant" on the talk page, or whatever... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 21:23, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yes, I was planning to ask you and Chris Lowe but then I got distracted by the sources I came across. See the talk page. Cheers, — mark ✎ 21:28, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

So is Zyxoas a name for me to remember? :-) Thanks --Ling.Nut 23:53, 14 December 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, for Southern African linguistic/ethnographic matters try Zyxoas, Cclowe, and SimonDonnelly. — mark ✎ 07:22, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Link to a page full of grammar pdfs

Hi Mark,

I ran across this page and it occurred to me that you might find it interesting (assuming you don't already know about it):

http://www.cs.chalmers.se/~harald2/grammars/grammars.html

It contains links to (local copies of) around 800 pdf grammars of a boatload of languages, including several African languages.

Best regards, --babbage 14:29, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Hi Babbage,

Yeah, that's quite a nice page, isn't it! I ran into it some time ago (and promptly downloaded lots of the materials on African languages), but thanks for notifying me anyway; I appreciate it. — mark ✎ 14:46, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

RfD

Could you possibly delete Ubnutu? No pages link to there, and there has to be guideline against this, somewhere, perhaps (I think). That link they provided you with above is very interesting indeed, but what's this I see about "Negro-Aryen" (at least that's what I think the first vowel was -- accented vowels look like Cyrillic on my side), that's truly weird indeed... Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 20:23, 15 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. — mark ✎ 14:43, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

The Négro-Aryen thing is about creoles so it makes more sense than one might expect on first sight :) — mark ✎ 14:48, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Oh right!! That makes sense. :D Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 16:01, 16 December 2006 (UTC) What do you think of Southern Sotho langauge (typo), SeSotho (grossly misinformed), BaSotho (same), Basutos (weird), Basuti (huh? :-/)? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 18:34, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Indigenous people of East Africa

Hello there,

First, let me congratulate you for all the fine work you have done on Africa. I am also working on trying to fill in the huge gaps on this continent. Just wanted to let you know that adding {cl|Indigenous people of East Africa}} is redundant in the case of Okiek because it is already in a subcategory of that category, that being Category:Ethnic groups in Tanzania (and in Kenya, for that matter). Thanks--Thomas.macmillan 14:18, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry Thomas, I wasn't aware of that; thanks for correcting me. Will remember next time. — mark ✎ 14:42, 16 December 2006 (UTC)

Pronouncing Adum (Kumasi)

Mark, thanks so much for replying to my Reference desk query. (You'll see that I've refined my question there in light of your response.)

The pronunciation is required by an e-colleague whom I've never met, a participant in a Hebrew translators' e-forum I maintain on Yahoo!Groups, who is presumably translating a (literary?) work from English into Hebrew. The orthographic options of the latter are meager where vowels are concerned, and the convention for transcribing foreign-language place names into Hebrew is based on how they're pronounced.

My own study of phonology was, alas, only rudimentary (= a few undergraduate courses back in the early 1980s) and poorly remembered. So I'm trying to get along by whatever's the auditory equivalent of "seat-of-pants" (pardon the mixed metaphor!), augmented by what I can learn here in Wikipedia and related Web sources, with the help of good folks like you!  :-) Deborahjay 04:50, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Deborah, I have replied over there. Your colleague may be translating a work of Kwame Anthony Appiah. — mark ✎ 08:53, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Many thanks, Mark! I've alerted my colleague to read your replies, though netiquette prevents me from enquiring further (beyond a fairly overt request for follow-up, and this on a public forum) as to the nature of the project. I did encounter the Appiah page when I first sought info about Adum, so that was an eye-opener to one who knows little about Africa. I appreciate the knowledge.-- Cheers, Deborahjay 02:16, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Re: Human body features

Here is the image without the labels [2], I didn't use vector graphics. Cheers. --Vsion 00:07, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! If needed, I think I could create a vectorized version. — mark ✎ 15:38, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Lingala speakers and need for map ideas

Hello, Mark,

I saw your question about the existence of Lingala speakers on the Lingala talk page and thought I'd say hi. From Category:User_ln, it looks like there are four of us -- oops, make that three. Looks like one guy has listed every language template on his user page, so he doesn't count. I'm American but learned Lingala in the Peace Corps. I also see you know something about making maps. I'd like to get a map of the Uele River in the DRCongo for the Uele River article. I've collected many maps from the Internet, but none shows just that river. I was thinking of creating one from a satellite image and drawing over it with Paint. Do you have any recommendations? --Dblomgren 07:02, 18 December 2006 (UTC)

Do you see what you did?

Say "hello" to your buddy Dwo for me: Basotho. I'm seriously considering not getting involved in any aspect of Wikipedia ever again. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 08:47, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Why would you let something like that influence your involvement in Wikipedia? — mark ✎ 09:05, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

It's frustrating having to deal with this troll, especially when he seems to have support from everyone else for his idiotic opinions and actions. I'm just thinking of leaving y'all to make your own decisions without me -- you're obviously satisfied with his latest one. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:23, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

To be clear, I think I have not consciously come across Dwo before he entered the discussion I started at Talk:Sotho language. That said, I have no desire to call Dwo a troll just because he disagrees with you; I do not perceive his opinions and actions as trolling.

Why would you let the Basotho→Sotho people move, regardless of who carried it out, influence your involment in Wikipedia? — mark ✎ 09:42, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Because it's incorrect, yet I do not have the patience to get involved in another fake "discussion" on it, and I don't want to be around the next time another incorrect decision is "pretty much agreed upon" because my opinions and first-hand mundane knowledge obviously don't mean much around here. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 09:56, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm a Nederlander, yet I do not intend to leave Wikipedia just because the article about my ethnic group is not located at Nederlanders but at Dutch people. Now what's the difference between you and me at this point? I think it has nothing to do with 'idiotic opinions and actions', nor with 'first-hand mundane knowledge', and even less with 'you' versus 'the others'. I think the difference simply lies in the fact that I have accepted that a general purpose, English language encyclopedia of international scope is not the place to try to enforce one's puristic conception of correctness. — mark ✎ 10:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Let me try this 1 more time. What's you view, exactly? That:

1. The most common name should be used,
2. prefixes should all be removed (seemingly Nguni's view), or
3. there should consistency between disparate articles, regardless of context and content (Dwo's view, for today)?

If you follow the first view then the article should be at Basotho, since this is the most common name used when talking about the history of Lesotho, South Africa, and Great Britain; both here on Wikipedia (Lesotho, Moshoeshoe I) and in books I've read (eg Google for "Hill of Destiny") and TV programs I've seen etc. Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 10:26, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

As I said on the talk page, I don't feel strongly on this issue, partly because I'm more at home in the linguistic literature than in the literature on the people, partly because the sources I have seen are about evenly divided between Sotho and Basotho, and partly because I do not have a strong preference myself for either Basotho or Sotho people. As for your opitions, I'd go for option one, as I have always done here on Wikipedia. But this case is a tough call, as it is going to be quite difficult to show which form really is more common.

Take the library of the African Studies Center, for example (a very complete library in the field of African Studies). There are 36 publications listed with the word 'Basotho' in the title, and 56 ones which use the word 'Sotho' in the ethnographic sense (I have omitted 10 which refer to the language). This makes clear that there certainly is not a simple majority for Basotho in this field. Same holds for Google results (which I, by the way, deeply mistrust for deciding matters like these). — mark ✎ 13:50, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

How about we move this to Talk:Sotho people and see how Dwo and those who allegedly agree with him respond? Zyxoas (talk to me - I'll listen) 16:21, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Done. — mark ✎ 16:41, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Frank Baranowski

Mark, I noticed you made an edit on the Sathya Sai Baba article where you claimed that Frank Baranowski is not a professor. Besides the Sri Lankan Newspaper reference to Baranowsky as a "Professor", the Arizona Republic Newspaper referred to him as "Dr. Frank Baranowsky, PhD". This had already been discussed before and the relevant newspaper article was provided on this sandox page. Since his website is no longer online, I am not sure how you ascertained that he did not refer to himself as a professor on his website. At any rate, just thought I'd drop a note and let you know that two reliable sources referred to him as a "Professor", "Dr" and having a "Phd". Thanks. SSS108 ^talk-email 17:06, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

You do know the important difference between a Dr/Ph.D. (=someone who has completed graduate college and presumably written a dissertation) and a Professor, don't you? And since when are we picking up any title ascribed to any person by some random newspaper in the absence of a corroborating source? As for the website, it has been fully preserved at www.archive.org so there's no problem there.

Frankly, I think you're way off base and you know it. I have the feeling that you're abusing the reliable sources concept to push your point and I think it's disgraceful. — mark ✎ 19:48, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Mark, yes I do know the difference. I do agree with you about the questionable standards of reliable sources being used on the Sathya Sai Baba article. Unfortunately, the prevailing standard used in the article is that even "random newspapers" from the Netherlands can be cited as reliable sources in relation to critical content. Therefore, I am simply adhering to the same standard used by critics. No one seems willing to consistently enforce the literal and strict standard used in WP:RS. So far, the efforts are selective, which I think is unfair. At any rate, have a nice day. SSS108 ^talk-email 21:14, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply. I'm sure you're aware that that line of reasoning (...simply adhering to the same standard used by critics...) does not lead to a better Wikipedia. — mark ✎ 08:46, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Note to self: I just discovered that there is a word for this: Wikipedia:Fact laundering. — mark ✎ 12:00, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Ngoni people

Lather, rinse, repeat. :-) --Ling.Nut 18:09, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Merger proposal for Sotho-Tswana languages

Mark, I propose that the larger umbrella page Sotho-Tswana subsume into itself the very brief page on the Sotho-Tswana languages called Sotho languages. There are a number of reasons, but principally Sotho-Tswana is the standard name given for this linguistic cluster within Zone S (cf. Heine 1973 Zur genetischen Gliederung der Bantusprachen). Anyway, see what you think. I haven't quite figured out how to merge pages yet. And perhaps it's not up to me, in any case. Cheers, — Sotho of the South 23:43, 19 December 2006 (UTC)

Replied over there. — mark ✎ 09:31, 22 December 2006 (UTC)

Request

I was wondering if you would be willing to provide an opinion on the Ohio Wesleyan page. I am trying to get it to FA status, so any help with suggestions and contributions to the article is appreciated! :-) WikiprojectOWU 01:45, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

Sorry, I dislike having my Talk page spammed with impersonal multi-user messages. — mark ✎ 08:43, 23 December 2006 (UTC)

don't shoot

In case you hadn't seen already, I thought you'd like to know about this. - BanyanTree 16:53, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

holy sh*t ...

— mark ✎ 08:58, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

I'm assuming you already knew that User:Jmabel is another "vote with your feet" casualty.. --Ling.Nut 13:07, 31 December 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia:WikiProject Endangered languages

Hello Mark,

Well the Holidays are winding down. I'm cutting back/quitting my participation in other projects in order to concentrate on Wikipedia:WikiProject Endangered languages (temporarily at User:Ling.Nut/ELLR). I'm going to move the main page out of my userspace and into Wikipedia space very soon; probably within the next day or so.

The project is looking pretty bare-bones at present, but I think that it's best to launch it "warts and all" rather than to wait for it to be perfect (since nothing can ever be perfect).

Any and all help, comments, thoughts, etc. would be appreciated. As a WikiProject in Wikispace, it belongs to Wikipedia. I strongly invite and encourage any and all improvements that you see that you could offer.

Most of all, let's get the WikiProject trappings squared away so we can focus on the articles!

Best Regards, --Ling.Nut 21:43, 30 December 2006 (UTC)

happy 2007

and a happy new year to you, Mark; may vandals be scarce, and may your projects flourish. dab (𒁳) 17:47, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Kissi

Hello Mark. I have been working a bit on the Kissi language page and I noticed that you had taken down some links I had added to the christusrex website that documents printed versions of rare languages. Your comment was that they duplicated information available in ethnologue. I disagree with your reason because the christusrex pages contain completely different information than the ethnologue entry - please refer to the links below.

christusrex kissi-northern ethnologue entry for kissi-northern

christusrex kisi-southern ethnologue entry for kisi-southern

I will be restoring the links to christusrex since they are useful for observing the differences between kissi-northern and kisi-southern as well as documenting variations in orthography. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jrharper (talk • contribs)

Hello Jrharper. You are quite right; I am sorry for deleting the links. I mistakenly held them for the Christusrex duplicate data of the Ethnologue; I should've checked before deleting. Thank you for your friendly note and please accept my apologies! — mark ✎ 20:25, 5 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks!

Thanks for the editor review. I'm still working on the barnstar thing, but my progress so far has been good. Hopefully, I shall continue to improve. Again, thanks! S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 23:43, 8 January 2007 (UTC)

Also thanks

Hey Mark, thanks for the welcome. I've been doing some research on Wikipedia and growing increasingly in love with it, so I decided to start doing a lot more editing. I hope to do a bunch more on Sapir-Whorf and other similar nerdy linguistics topics.

P.S. Good call on Lucy. He is a good writer/smart guy, and was probably on my mind when I mentioned habitual thought. Superabo 02:25, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Well, that sounds great. I'm looking forward to your contributions! — mark ✎ 09:04, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Online Etymology Dictionary

What an interesting discussion you all have had about "rhumba," and so forth. I see the Online Etymology Dictionary played a role in it, and, regrettably, a controversial one. I'd just like to pass along my contact information (which also is on the site) in case this should happen again. If there is a question about a particular piece of information on the site, I'll be glad to look it up and tell you. There seems to be an impression that I create these etymologies myself; I don't (or in the few cases where I make a suggestion, it's indicated as such). They're compiled, not created. You, or other editors, may feel free to write me at byronic106@yahoo.com —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 72.25.5.126 (talk) 04:23, 11 January 2007 (UTC).

Hi Douglas, thanks for your message. Thanks for clarifying that you didn't create these etymologies yourself. I didn't in fact think you created them yourself, but the fact that you only cite your sources on a general page (as opposed to listing them with the etymologies) makes it difficult to assess the reliability of individual etymologies. I don't intend to rake up that particular debate again just now, but thank you anyway for the offer to help out in the future. Best regards, — mark ✎ 08:11, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

My RFA

Hey, thanks for participating in my recent RFA. You were amongst a number of editors who considered that I wasn't ready for the mop yet and as a consequence the RFA did not succeed (69/26/11). I am extremely grateful that you took the time to advise me on to improve as a Wikipedian and I'd like to assure you that I'll do my level best to develop my skills here to a point where you may feel you could trust me with the mop.

I've been blown away by the level of interest taken in my RFA and appreciate the time and energy dedicated by all the editors who have contributed to it, support, oppose and neutral alike. I hope to bump into you again soon and look forward to serving you and Wikipedia in any way I can. Cheers! The Rambling Man 19:32, 11 January 2007 (UTC) (the non-admin, formerly known as Budgiekiller)

Thanks for your message, and happy editing! — mark ✎ 13:25, 13 January 2007 (UTC)

Template:Catholic-link

A deletion discussion in which you voted, that of Template:Catholic-link, is up for deletion review, where the template may be deleted or retained depending upon the review discussion. You are welcome to comment and/or vote at Wikipedia:Deletion review#Template:Catholic-link. The key point of this discussion is whether the "default keep by no consensus" result was correct; discussion of the template itself is secondary (but may still be important). — coelacan talk — 04:36, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for notifying me. I didn't like how that particular AfD was closed, so I'll drop in my vote. — mark ✎ 08:35, 16 January 2007 (UTC)

Two questions

Hello Mark; after seeing your Africa-related work around, its nice to actually correspond with you. Anyways, as the header might suggest, I have two questions.

First of all, on the article Bayajidda (a figure from Hausa mythology), I'm having trouble with a Hausa language character. In the lead, you'll see the name written in Hausa as "Bàyā^{`</sup>jiddà," or Bàyā<sup>`}jiddà in nowiki brackets. The problem is the fourth letter. When I found this webpage via Google, I was delighted to have stumbled upon the name in Hausa. Copy&paste doesn't work, so I tried typing it out via the special characters down under the edit window. Everything was fine, save the fourth letter; I couldn't (and can't) find a copy&andpasteable version anywhere (many websites were like this one, displaying it as images) so I improvised. Do you know of any way to get the correct character in place?

My second question stems from this post of mine on Wikipedia talk:Did you know a few days ago. Having recently taken up editing Portal:Nigeria, I've been trying to fill Portal:Nigeria/Did you know with Nigeria-related facts that have been DYKs on the mainpage once; so far, all I have is my own Bayajidda entry and one on a mathematician. Do you recall any Nigeria-related articles that have been DYKs before? If you can the other two people Blnguyen suggested I ask can't think of any, I'll just start picking random facts (like the one on your userpage about the Defaka).

If you could answer either of those queries, I'd be much obliged. If you can answer both, I might just have to give you another barnstar! Regards, Picaroon 03:49, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Hello Picaroon,

The first question is a small Unicode puzzle. I guess the problem with the fourth character is that it combines two diacritics: the macron, marking vowel length in Hausa, and the grave accent, marking low tone. For some reason (I guess the problem lies with Adobe Acrobat) copy-pasting that character from the PDF you linked to doesn't work. If I use the IPA character picker over here, I get the following result (put in a {{unicode}} template to force your browser to use the right font): Bàyā̀jiddà. Does that work for you? It looks alright with me. The difference with what you have in Bayajidda is that I have used the actual low tone mark from the IPA character set. Although the character itself looks no different, it combines better with the preceding character in good Unicode fonts.

Turning to the second question, the only Nigeria-related DYK that I recall is Defaka, which I wrote quite some time ago. Looking through my own contributions, there is not much more Nigeria-related stuff, except for my work on Yoruba language (you might be able to find some DYK-worthy nuggets there), and some stubs on Niger-Congo subfamilies like Ijoid and Yoruboid. Something that definitely should have been at DYK though is Languages of Nigeria, due to Gozar's fantastic expansion of it recently.

— mark ✎ 09:48, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much for the tips; they've been most helpful. Picaroon 20:33, 20 January 2007 (UTC)

Afrikaans

For non-Dutch readers: this is a request to Mark that he include the Indo-European languages on his African languages maps

Dag Mark, wij maken al een paar jaar met veel plezier gebruik van je Afrikaanse taalkaarten. Ze zijn o.h.a. erg duidelijk en gedetailleerd. Ik zou er echter één ding aan veranderd willen zien: een eigen kleur voor Indo-Europese talen. Op de kleurige hoofdkaart bijvoorbeeld staat het Afrikaans wel aangegeven maar is er geen aparte kleur voor die familie te zien. Natuurlijk, in dat gebied worden vanouds andere talen gesproken, maar het geldt voor wel meer gebieden dat er verschillende taalfamilies zijn (Khoisan en Bantoe, Nilo-Saharaans en Afro-Aziatisch etc.) en je hebt dat overal zonder arceringen opgelost. En ja, de familie is natuurlijk vreemd in Afrika, maar de Afrikaanse taal is in principe inheems, net als het Austronesische Malagasy dat je wel hebt ingetekend. Is dit misschien een idee? Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 12:41, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Hoi Steinbach, dankjewel voor dit bericht. Ik heb al meerdere verzoeken ontvangen om de kaarten bij te werken; op commons:Image_talk:African_language_families.png kun je er nog een paar vinden. M.b.t. Afrikaans ben ik het helemaal eens met je argumentatie. Toen ik de kaarten maakte was het me er om te doen de vier Afrikaanse families globaal in kaart te brengen, maar vanaf het begin ben ik lichtelijk ontevreden geweest over de inconsistentie van mijn keuzes daarin.

Helaas ben ik er nog steeds niet aan toe gekomen om de correcties en aanvullingen door te voeren. Het werk zou iets makkelijker zijn als ik niet zelf op zoek zou moeten naar reliable sources voor de verspreiding van het Afrikaans (de kaarten hier op Wikipedia en op Wikimedia Commons geven alleen het aantal sprekers per provincie weer). Dus als je een goede, recente bron hebt houd ik me zeer aanbevolen! — mark ✎ 11:04, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Het Afrikaans wordt in het grootste deel van het land wel door blanke gemeenschappen gesproken (eigenlijk is het alleen in Kwazulu-Natal wat minder vertegenwoordigd) maar het is eigenlijk in het hele westen van het land, grofweg de westelijke en noordelijke Kaapprovincie, de eerste taal, die ook onder de kleurlingen inheems is. Op de commons staat dit mooie kaartje, waarop de dominante tal en tot op de gemeente nauwkeurig staan aangegeven. Deze kaart is weer gebaseerd op kaarten van het Zuid-Afrikaanse bureau voor de statistiek die voor elke provincie zelfs de taal per dorp of wijk specifiëren. Deze kaartjes zijn, dankzij het fair-usebeleid van en:, op de artikelen van de respectieve provincies te vinden. Ik beschouw deze bronnen als redelijk betrouwbaar en bovendien erg nauwkeurig. Misschien kun je daarmee je kaarten aanpassen? Steinbach (fka Caesarion) 22:06, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Orpheon

Closing the gate to the other world is not far off, adversary. For now, The Regime will leave this place, to allow you to continue to 'contribute' to what you percieve to be good, right, and benevolent. I wish to tell you, however, that The Alter's motives are not what they appear to be. Soon this place will become your very enemy, and the very thing you fought to protect will be destroyed. Be wary of The Cataclyst, for he to wishes to destroy this site. Watch your back, because we're all over it. The Regime, The Alter, The Orpheon, The Cataclyst

Reference: The Regime, in response to my explanations, warnings, questions, and offers of help on his talk page.

Bye, thanks. — mark ✎ 09:21, 27 January 2007 (UTC)

respond

I responded to your questions in my Editor review, found here. Thanks for all your imput. S h a r k f a c e 2 1 7 23:33, 26 January 2007 (UTC)

Pidgin English

Hi, Mark. When you get the chance, would you mind popping by Talk:Pidgin and giving your opinion on what to do with Pigin English? Should it be merged into Pidgin? Redirected to that article, or perhaps West African Pidgin English? Thanks, — BrianSmithson 22:32, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

To Cameroonian Pidgin English, I'd say. I have put in some words over at Talk:Pidgin. Thanks for the note! — mark ✎ 19:34, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:HistSource

Template:HistSource has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you.. This is related to the recent Catholic-link TfD. --Stbalbach 23:56, 30 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the notice. I have put in a vote. — mark ✎ 19:21, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Why not - please explaiin Mark

Why isn't East End Park appropriate on the EEP page. It is a known slang term for it. Please explain so I know in future.

In my edit summary I linked to What Wikipedia is not, an official policy. I think WP:NOT#DICT is quite clear on this type of issue: "Wikipedia is not a dictionary, usage or jargon guide." In other words, Wikipedia isn't here to document slang terms of every and any regional slang variety. The closest thing to a place where such terms may be documented would be the sister project Wiktionary. — mark ✎ 19:09, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for making that clear.

You're welcome. — mark ✎ 19:37, 31 January 2007 (UTC)

Request for Help

Greetings Mark Dingemanse!

lg:User:Kizito wishes to translate the Luganda Wikipedia interface system messages into his native language.

Can you kindly support his adminship application? Thanks for your help. --Jose77 22:48, 1 February 2007 (UTC)

Thankyou very much Mark for your support. May you prosper! --Jose77 21:09, 7 February 2007 (UTC)

Deletion review for "Good article" template star

hi, you may be interested to note there is currently a DRV active about restoring the "good article" metadata in the article space. The discussion is occurring here: article —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 82.3.253.199 (talk) 21:31, 8 February 2007 (UTC). its been speedy closed now so never mind! 82.3.253.199 21:47, 8 February 2007 (UTC)