User talk:ItsPugle/Archive 2

Oh Canada!

I finally figured out what the concern with the BBC source was. It's that we don't use it as a reference for a statement of exist in the US and Canada, we use it for a statement promotes and engages in political violence in the United States and Canada, and it doesn't support the first part of that. It's easily fixed by separating the "promotes & engages in" aspect from the "US and Canada" aspect, and referencing them separately. Two separate statements, not one compound one. - Ryk72 ^talk 01:40, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Ryk72: Ah, okay! If I'm being honest, I don't really think anything needs to be done. At the most, we could maybe say "...that promotes and engages in political violence in the United States, and has a presence in Canada.", but the BBC article doesn't differentiate between the actions of the US and Canadian chapters, so I'm a bit hesitant. Do you think we could even just condense "United States and Canada" into "North America"? I'm just very aware of making sure that we don't add too many qualifiers and "this but also that" sort of things in the lead. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 03:27, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Patriot Movement

I presume you don't think that the bit about the genesis of the movement, or at least some of the movement, goes back to the JBS? Nothing before the 80s? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doug Weller (talk • contribs) 12:21, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Hi Doug. I'm just filling in details from my own research, and the sources that I read consistently noted 1993–94 as the first emersion of the movement. As I don't have access to the three book sources provided later on in the article, it would be inappropriate for me to assume the content of them. If you have access, or if I'm misreading something, I of course have no objections to any improvements :) Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "JBS"... Journal of Biosocial Sciences? ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 22:31, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

Not sure why the other box is locked other than a pattern of trying to stifle discourse

A few things- If books are going to be cited, inaccessible or not, page numbers are to be included. If this charade continues, prepare for academic press to be cited elsewhere under similar circumstances. The cite bomber is now using academic press elsewhere via talk to attempt to disconnect the former Soviet Union from the Ukrainian Famine-that borders on genocidal denial as I used as an example during our discourse on this topic. Lastly, although I am a longtime infrequent IP editor that eschews the entire concept of registration, it is fairly obvious that I am not familiar with the software, although I have some knowledge of WP guidelines, I have not kept up with changes over the years or that I am not a blocked editor using a sock puppet. That's not so obvious with the editor continually pushing the fascist label.2601:46:C801:B1F0:125:F8EB:C6FA:6525 (talk) 21:43, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

You cannot randomly create policies or direct any other editor to follow them. There is no requirement to include page numbers; in fact, the citation only just needs to identify the book. I would also be very careful in suggesting that an editor is bordering on genocidal denial - that's a serious claim, and may be seen as harassment. It's perfectly fine that you're an anonymous editor; everyone's allowed their anonymity on Wikipedia, just beware that there's a bit of a stigma about IP editors and may make it hard for some established editors to respect you. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 22:46, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

"the cite bomber"? Is that like the Evil Midnight Bomber What Bombs At Midnight in The Tick (1994 TV series)? 2601:2C0:C300:B7:147D:6228:E0E9:20F7 (talk) 23:05, 11 October 2020 (UTC)

added founder info against Wikipedia policy

Hey ItsPugle, I just saw you basically reverted my edit of removing founder information from the lead of the Turning Point USA article, that information was taken out because it used a non-WP:RS citation source on the Wikipedia reliable/perennial source list found here. Then you added it back in and added more unreliable sources under citation. This list includes, PRwatch - not rs, State-Journal register- not rs, conservative transparency - not rs. Please self revert, also in the future, please refer to the Wikipedia list for direction as to if a source is usable.MaximusEditor (talk) 02:09, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

@MaximusEditor: Hi there. I forgot to check RSPSOURCES when I added the IBT source, so I have no issues with your original removal (although you also seemed to remove content not sourced by IBT, which was swiftly restored). In terms of the Center for Media and Democracy's PR Watch and SR-J, WP:RSPSOURCES does not establish that it is an unreliable source and there is no such consensus that I can see on the talk pages, so I won't be self-reverting.

On that note, though, I noticed that you added a number of mentions of TPUSA-connected events to the lead. Although I think they may be briefly mentioned at the end of the second paragraph, they are not in any way the most notable - you can see this in how WP has an article for Professor Watchlist, but not for any of those conferences. If you wouldn't mind, I would encourage you to self-revert this - UNDUE applies to sourcing and representations of perspectives, not the weight of the notability of the subjects' related things (and even then, adding those conferences as prominently when contrasted the horrors of the Professor Watchlist is an undue issue in itself). ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 02:38, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

PB as any kind of fascist is the minority POV

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Besides neo and proto largely being antonym prefixes displaying the level of credibility involved here. One of the RS academic sources was recently busted for race misappropriation being white and claiming to be black-that is hardly credible RS source especially on anything involving race. Another one is a hyper partisan zealot on par with Dinesh D Souza. One of the female ones(only pointing her gender out given the group is considered misogynistic) used some definition of fascism that captured Hitler, Pinochet and another historical fascist's regime social tenets but completely ignored the dictatorial control of governance-I did not bother looking at any of the rest.

Another one calls them crypto fascist-which may be the factually most accurate if one believes that they secretly desire dictatorial control or strong central governance.

It is currently in the lede despite the vast majority of RS not calling them any kind of fascist.

The lede should say verbatim what the SLPC calls them and most RS have subsequently labeled the group-a right wing extremist hate group or something along those lines.

Put the factually incorrect fascist claims in the body and maybe explain that they have been called XIZ type of fascists despite neo and proto largely being antonyms. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:46:C801:B1F0:B424:DCDD:60B9:9757 (talk) 17:40, 6 October 2020 (UTC)

I'm afraid the very very very significant majority of sources disagree with your personal opinion about the reliability of sources and the designation of the Proud Boys as a neo-fascist group. "One of the RS academic sources" is not significant; there are about 15 different sources on the talk page that support the claim, one unrelated incident from an academic (which you've provided no evidence that such happened). Beyond that, trying to interpret sources is nothing more than original research that is detrimental to the quality of Wikipedia. Also, the vast majority of sources support using that term: can you provide any sources to the contrary? ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 01:17, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

Don't be sorry! Most of the RS sources do not call them any kind of fascist. Not close, one has to look long and hard to find that label. Search the name, read the first 100 hits and of those how many lead off with it. If you'd like to save time the answer is very few. The notable experts do not use that label. As far as the words themselves, that is academic press, anyone can write anything that they want and publish on those mediums. Included are genocide deniers, anti vaxxers etc... they are not peer reviewed, they are subject to almost zero oversight and have no academic standing. If you asked 100 history professors to define neo-fascism, 99 would give a blank stare and the 100th would say you must be from wikipedia. It should be a red flag when they do not link to a notable think tank, government or prominent academic institution or department on the subject. Is it the opinion that the ADL and SLPC who throw around the words fascist, white supremacist and racist like balls just forgot to use them this time? No one tried to interpret sources without actually reading them first other than it looks like the guy who posted them in the first place. Hosang is posted, I skimmed through that and saw approaches fascism. Unf I do not have time to read through all of the subsequent posts since my last on the notice board. The bottom line is this, although Masem and the other editor are absolutely correct in their idyllic approach, notability trumps that in the cases of these hate groups. However, the IP editor continuing to insist that the opening paragraph be more than the ADL or SLPC is going too far the other way. For future reference, if I have time to read through these nonsense sources, their lack of notability for the subject matter and their use of words of no academic standing, come on-you can spend 15secs searching a name-https://www.fresnobee.com/news/local/education-lab/article245836520.html. Lastly, lay off the detrimental to WP stuff. What is really detrimental to WP is seeking to end good faith discourse with phrases like this is detrimental to WP.2601:46:C801:B1F0:1C2F:40CA:7880:6802 (talk) 07:33, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

The WP:BURDEN is upon you to provide evidence against the status quo, and against the existing consensus. Not only that, but my talk page is not a place for you to try and overturn consensus - you need to be having this discussion on the article's talk page and gain consensus. Also, trying to suggest that any academic source has no value because "included are genocide deniers, anti vaxxers etc" is the most absurd thing, especially considering when the basic criteria for admission into journals generally include peer review. And I think you'll see neo-fascism as an idea is alive and well in scholarly sources. And you do see the absurd irony in saying that I should "lay off the detrimental to WP stuff" then for you do say "what is really detrimental to WP", right? ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 11:05, 10 October 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Source

Hi

Do you have sources? He will president only for 90 days. Also, he is still PM. --Panam2014 (talk) 12:11, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: Sorry, you're right, he is still prime minister - I will update the article with that. And on being president, this The Guardian article says:

"On Friday, lawmakers said he would lead the country until presidential elections next year, while remaining prime minister."

No where does it say 90 days. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 12:14, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

[1] --Panam2014 (talk) 12:17, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: Not only does that source say nothing about 90 days, but it cannot be used on Wikipedia as it is an unreliable source. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 12:20, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

[2] --Panam2014 (talk) 12:22, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: Again, that says nothing about 90 days. Also, it says "may" - nothing more than speculation. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 12:25, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

[https://www.constituteproject.org/constitution/Kyrgyz_Republic_2010.pdf?lang=en "In case of early termination of powers by the President on the grounds envisaged in the present Constitution, his/her powers shall be exercised by the Toraga [Speaker] of the Jogorku Kenesh until new President is elected. In case of inability of the Toraga to exercise the powers of the President, then such powers shall be exercised by the Prime minister. Early presidential elections are conducted within three months period since the termination of powers of the President. 2. Officials exercising the powers of the President shall not have the right to call early elections of the Jogorku Kenesh or dismiss the Government."] --Panam2014 (talk) 12:28, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: a) That's WP:OR, and b) the election date hasn't been set - the election could quite literally be in a week, so until we know when it's set for sure (especially considering the country is going through affectively a constitutional crisis), he is the president. Anyways, the duration of his presidency does not change the fact that he is occupying the office of the president. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 12:38, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

"Officials exercising the powers of the President" so he is not president. --Panam2014 (talk) 12:39, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

[3] --Panam2014 (talk) 12:42, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

@Panam2014: Thank you! That is the first valid piece of evidence you've provided. Unfortunately, the Guardian article is more reliable than Kabar, a state-sponsored news agency that has no transparency in terms of its fact-checking etc. I'll do some more research tomorrow, but as far as I can see, everything points to Japarov becoming the outright president after confirmation from parliament - before that, he was the acting president. It's also happened rather quickly, so pretty much all of the sources seem to be from before the parliamentary confirmation. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 12:57, 18 October 2020 (UTC)

Okay, I haven't found any compelling evidence. As I mentioned, the haste in which everything has occurred means that several news sources are delayed or haven't reported since the confirmation. I'll keep an eye out for how ongoing media reports it, but I think the status quo is the best for now. One thing to consider is that the country is kind of in crisis, so constitutional procedure may not be possible or reasonable - we should follow reports of what has happened, not what might happen. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 05:11, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

2020 New Zealand election

I have added relevant written sources ie. Newspaper articles from NZ Herald and The Guardian to support the relevant statements, on top of the official data provided. 2002 was Nationals worst ever year, and 2020 was the worst since 2002. Leesjy2k (talk) 08:52, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

I have added numerous other sources to validate what I have just written. Blocking me from editing articles of Wikipedia, is excessive given the written and official sources I have cited. Leesjy2k (talk) 09:28, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

@Leesjy2k: I've replied to you on your talk page. You need to have a good read and think about WP:OR - disruptively refusing to accept policy is sanctionable, primarily to protect the integrity of the project. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 11:33, 19 October 2020 (UTC)

October harvest

treats --Gerda Arendt (talk) 23:16, 31 October 2020 (UTC)

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REST article

Hello, I just edited the first paragraph for the REST lemma, which should address the technical tag you added. EduardKarelEtc (talk) 14:49, 10 January 2021 (UTC)

@EduardKarelEtc: Hey! Thanks for that. Just having a look at the article, I think it may still need a bit more 'dumbing down'. Phrasing like "textual representation and support reading and modification of them with a stateless protocol and a predefined set of operations." and "By using a stateless protocol and standard operations, RESTful systems aim for fast performance, reliability, and the ability to grow by reusing components that can be managed and updated without affecting the system as a whole, even while it is running." are still a bit too complex/assume too much prior knowledge. The lead is definitely looking much better, but the rest of the article might also need some work if you're willing: "visibility of communication between components by service agents", "reliability in the resistance to failure at the system level in the presence of failures within components, connectors, or data" etc. ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 07:12, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

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Thanks for letting me know! I'll reply in just a second :) ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 07:20, 2 June 2021 (UTC)

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ABC Television

Hi ItsPugle. I think it was you who placed the Merge to suggestion for the Canberra ABC station to be merged into ABC Television (Australian TV network)? I'm still in the process of doing a massive rationalisation and update of all of the ABC articles, and my preliminary investigations are drawing a blank on any entities with actual separate names in any of the capital cities any more, and certainly no mention on those old names consisting of three letters... But do you mind if I remove your Merge to/from templates for now, until I get to where I have a proposal about what to do with all of them? (You may as well comment on the talk page of that article rather than here, if you like. Probably will need discussion there relating to all of them anyway.) Laterthanyouthink (talk) 05:48, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

Sure, I have no problem with that :) I was going to have a crack at trying to fix up/merge etc the ancient ABC regional pages, but I just ran out of time and all that jazz. I'll leave a comment on the talk page now ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 07:53, 12 June 2021 (UTC)

JobSeeker Payment

Hi ItsPugle,
I just noticed on your user page that you'd been working on a JobSeeker Payment page at some point.

I created a redirect to related edits about the Payment (IIRC) I made on the Social security in Australia page.

Did I 'short circuit' what you were doing? :-/

Regards 220 of ^ßorg 11:39, 26 June 2021 (UTC)

Hiya 220 of Borg! No no, you’re all good! I was working on something like that a good several months ago, but I simply don’t know enough about the history of the program to know what needs to be included. Thanks for checking though 😊 ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 11:08, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

Ok, just curious mainly. The Social Security page was way, years, out of date. At least the name change (Newstart to JobSeeker) resulted in it getting somewhat updated. Regards, 220 of ^ßorg 13:25, 27 June 2021 (UTC)

@220 of Borg: I’ve found that a lot of the articles we have on government programs etc in Australia are pretty out of date, but that’s just the nature of WP I guess 🤷 ItsPugle (please ping on reply) 08:36, 28 June 2021 (UTC)

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Criticism of Spotify needs merging per your RFC

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Thanks for the heads up! I don't have time in my schedule right now to action this merge, but I'll keep it in mind when I have some spare time :) ItsPugle (talk) 02:17, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

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Recent changes to Brisbane by Caltraser5

I guess you have a point closing off that discussion, but can you at least see what you think of those edits that, in my humble opinion, could easily mislead a less well-informed reader into thinking that Brisbane is Australia's most populous city. (All I wanted to do from the very start was get a constructive discussion going on that issue the Talk page.) HiLo48 (talk) 10:32, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

@HiLo48: Hey! I think there's a lot of passion involved in the article as a whole, but I don't think it would be neutral of me to say anything further than that. Going forward, avoiding accusations (again, from both sides) would probably go a long way to avoiding a kerfuffle, but I just hope that any future discussions will be more productive 🤞 Tim (Talk to me) 10:46, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

I wasn't asking you about a kerfuffle. I was asking about an edit to the article. HiLo48 (talk) 16:30, 1 January 2022 (UTC)

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Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 18:31, 17 December 2023 (UTC)

Orphaned non-free image File:Queensland University of Technology logo.png

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Thanks for uploading File:Queensland University of Technology logo.png. The image description page currently specifies that the image is non-free and may only be used on Wikipedia under a claim of fair use. However, the image is currently not used in any articles on Wikipedia. If the image was previously in an article, please go to the article and see why it was removed. You may add it back if you think that that will be useful. However, please note that images for which a replacement could be created are not acceptable for use on Wikipedia (see our policy for non-free media).

Note that any non-free images not used in any articles will be deleted after seven days, as described in section F5 of the criteria for speedy deletion. Thank you. --B-bot (talk) 18:26, 22 December 2023 (UTC)