User talk:Ezhao02/Archive 1
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| Archive 1 |
Welcome
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May 2017
Please do not add or change content without citing a reliable source. Please review the guidelines at Wikipedia:Citing sources and take this opportunity to add references to the article. Thank you. Moxy (talk) 02:48, 30 May 2017 (UTC)
- @Moxy: I know this was a pretty long time ago, but could you please tell me what page this was about? Thanks, Ezhao02 (talk) 17:17, 22 August 2017 (UTC)
Apology
My apology for the erroneous warning. I restored your edit. Cheers Jim1138 (talk) 06:06, 2 June 2017 (UTC)
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Cheers for picking up on this vandalism - I missed it when reverting the other incidents. Chaheel Riens (talk) 11:59, 29 November 2018 (UTC) Thank you.Ezhao02 (talk) 14:34, 29 November 2018 (UTC)
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Your explanation makes sense
I was patrolling recent changes - removal of sourced content without an edit summary raises eyebrows, but you're right it flows better without that bit. Cheers GirthSummit (blether) 17:55, 22 August 2019 (UTC)
- No worries. Ezhao02 (talk) 23:04, 25 August 2019 (UTC)
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I recently noticed that you removed contents because you think sources do not support the claim. However I want you to notice that the sources are clearly showing the party's historical position. First the sources that are cited in historical field are outdated. For example the source from the The Ecomomist is written at 2008 which is refering 'grand national party' as centre-right.
Secondly after the 2016 South Korean political scandal the party suffered schism (LKP-Bareun Party). It is not appropriate to see the source before the party's splition support modern political spectrum of the party. If you have any questions please leave your message at may talk page. I'm always open to your opinion.
In addition the issue about party's political position had already been discussed long time ago. Thank you.
Jeff6045 (talk) 22:35, 26 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Jeff6045: Could you please show me where the party's political position has been discussed? Ezhao02 (talk) 04:28, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Ezhao02:
Not on the talk page but 삭은사과 and other users have discussed through editing article. If you have disputes on this you may discuss on the talk page. In addition I suggest you to see article about Fidesz. Fidesz's political spectrum is right wing to far right in modern sence but historically party's political spectrum is defined as centre right to right wing for the same reason as LKP. Jeff6045 (talk) 05:00, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Ezhao02:
- @Jeff6045: I'll check to see if I can find any more recent reliable sources describing the party as center-right or having a center-right faction. If I can't find anything, I'll give in to you. Ezhao02 (talk) 17:48, 27 December 2019 (UTC)
- @Jeff6045: I found some sources; I'll bring this to the talk page. Ezhao02 (talk) 17:21, 28 December 2019 (UTC)
Reversion
Per this revert, be careful about supporting the edits that this IP is making. They are hopping from political party to political party, making changes in position and removing sources which are inconvenient. In this case, they removed two sources, while only one of them is itself citing Wikipedia, as the IP claimed. Grandpallama (talk) 19:31, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Grandpallama: Please look at the edit more carefully. Only one source was actually removed. The other source was defined twice and was combined into only one source using the "ref name=" thing. Ezhao02 (talk) 21:35, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Took a second look, and I was wrong! Thanks for your patience. Grandpallama (talk) 22:13, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- No problem. It's always helpful to have multiple users check each others' work! Ezhao02 (talk) 23:12, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
- Took a second look, and I was wrong! Thanks for your patience. Grandpallama (talk) 22:13, 3 February 2020 (UTC)
Election result templates
Hello Ezhao02. With regards to your recent creation of {{2019 Faroese general election}}, these types of templates are being phased out and deleted (one reason being that they are prone to vandalism as few people watch them). If you want to display a results table from one article onto another, you can do this using the code {{#section-h:2019 Faroese general election|Results}} This displays everything in the results section of the designated article. If it contains text you don't want to show anywhere else, just add the <onlyinclude> tags around the bits you do want to display elsewhere. Cheers, Number 57 12:53, 5 February 2020 (UTC)
- @Number 57: I wasn't aware of that; thanks for letting me know. Ezhao02 (talk) 02:22, 6 February 2020 (UTC)
Welcome to The Wikipedia Adventure!
- Hi Ezhao02! We're so happy you wanted to play to learn, as a friendly and fun way to get into our community and mission. I think these links might be helpful to you as you get started.
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Drmies AN
This might interest you: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard#User:Drmies_abusing_administrative_privileges. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 21:24, 11 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'd rather not get involved, since I don't have much background on this. Ezhao02 (talk) 01:13, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I wasn't asking you to get involved; I just thought it might interest you.
- It has been prematurely terminated in pretty much the way I expected. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 01:40, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I realized what you meant after I read through it. I'm unaware of much of the context surrounding this issue, so please forgive me if I'm wrong, but from what has been said there, I feel like you might be overreacting. By all means, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Ezhao02 (talk) 01:54, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- To be honest, I don't think I am. I was warned by coworkers that editing Wikipedia would be a waste of time because administrators are aggressive, incompetent, and abusive. This has, unfortunately, proven to be the case so far.
- It's not just the actions of one particular administrator, but the way their peers rallied around them to try to turn this into an excuse to block me for daring to complain. It's bizarre and I wouldn't have expected it, except that I was told to expect it.
- It's very disappointing. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 02:20, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I agree with Ezhao02, 68.197.116.79. You overreacted. We all get warnings. We all, at some point, will be accused of being a sock. I've received both warnings and accusations and I'm an admin. I've been editing here for quite a few years and there are people here who can't stand me. It's life on the internet and you can't take things personally or you will soon quit. You have to pick your battles and try to just fight ones you have a chance of winning.
- The problem with your complaint is asking for an apology (which is NEVER done on Wikipedia because a forced apology is meaningless) and some kind of sanction for a long time admin because he was rude to you. What kind of sanction were you looking for? Because an admin can only be desysoped through a case before the Arbitration Committee. There is no such thing as a censure because no admin has authority over another admin to do this. So, you were asking for a punishment for rudeness that exceeded the deed. Even if everyone agreed with you that this behavior was inappropriate, there is no mechanism to deliver the resolution you were looking for. So, that is one reason most people didn't take your complaint seriously, not because admins are corrupt but your evidence didn't prove a longstanding pattern of behavior and there usually isn't any punishment given for occasional rudeness. To go before the Arbitration Committee, you have to demonstrate egregious and repetitive misconduct and that wasn't present here. But I hope you continue to edit, just stay away from editors you have conflicts with...that's what we all do. Liz Read! Talk! 03:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I guess it depends. If I actually vandalized an article, I would certainly deserve and expect a warning. Likewise, if I had actually been a sock puppet or an edit warrior or any of the other things Drmies accused me of. But since all of these accusations were false and since they were followed by "and therefore I will block you", I think it's fair for me to expect better behavior. What do you think?
- I'm not a lawyer, much less a wiki-lawyer, so I don't know what all the procedures and punishments are. I do know that Drmies does not deserve to remain an administrator because they have abused their power so as to insult, intimidate, and threaten users, and plan to continue to do so. I somehow doubt that I'm their first victim, especially given how entirely unrepentant they are, and how much support they've received from other administrators, including you. And now I won't be the last, because you administrators let him walk away unscathed.
- I went to that particular forum because that's where Drmies dared me to. I guess the joke is on me; they knew that they'd never even get a slap on the wrist, and that I'd be threatened with a block just for daring to complain. I even had another administrator come to my page just to mock me!
- No, I didn't overreact; you under-reacted. You've been here so long that you've forgotten what it's like to come in from outside and be treated like garbage by the people in charge. You think it's ok, and it's not. It's not ok. It will never be ok. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 04:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- @68.197.116.79:: Again, I don’t know much about what happened. However, I’d like to offer a suggestion. I have seen that some Wikipedians aren’t too nice to IP editors, not because they’re consciously biased but because they’re more likely to assume bad faith of someone who doesn’t take the time to create an account. It may be helpful for you to create an account to contribute to Wikipedia to be taken more seriously. I know that this specific issue that I mention is more of a problem with Wikipedia editors than with you, but I think that it would be best for you to contribute seriously, considering that you seem to already have quite a bit of experience. Ezhao02 (talk) 03:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- With all due respect, if I had any intention of creating an account, I no longer do. Frankly, I'm not sure why I should even bother editing if there is no justice. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 04:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why I should bother creating an account if there's no strawberry ice cream. --JBL (talk) 12:56, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- That made absolutely no sense and did not contribute to this discussion positively. As far as I can tell, it was an attempt to insult me. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 13:51, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I'm not sure why I should bother creating an account if there's no strawberry ice cream. --JBL (talk) 12:56, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- With all due respect, if I had any intention of creating an account, I no longer do. Frankly, I'm not sure why I should even bother editing if there is no justice. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 04:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- I realized what you meant after I read through it. I'm unaware of much of the context surrounding this issue, so please forgive me if I'm wrong, but from what has been said there, I feel like you might be overreacting. By all means, feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Ezhao02 (talk) 01:54, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Everyone, please take this off my talk page. I'm not involved in this, nor do I want to be. Ezhao02 (talk) 13:58, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Ok. Sorry about that, and bye. 68.197.116.79 (talk) 18:02, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry if I seemed a bit rude. Ezhao02 (talk) 18:23, 12 May 2020 (UTC)
Ways to improve 2018 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina general election
Hello, Ezhao02,
Thank you for creating 2018 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina general election.
I have tagged the page as having some issues to fix, as a part of our page curation process and note that:
Please add references to articles you create.
The tags can be removed by you or another editor once the issues they mention are addressed. If you have questions, leave a comment here and prepend it with {{Re|Boleyn}}. And, don't forget to sign your reply with ~~~~. For broader editing help, please visit the Teahouse.
Delivered via the Page Curation tool, on behalf of the reviewer.
Boleyn (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
- @Boleyn: Hi, I know that the tables on the page are cited (from the elections website for Bosnia and Herzegovina), although these are not footnote references. Also, this page was created as a split from another page (2018 Bosnian general election), so would it be better to leave the article in the mainspace and instead tag the article with an {{unreferenced}} template? Also, this article is clearly as notable as 2018 Republika Srpska general election and 2018 Bosnian general election, other major elections in the same country. Ezhao02 (talk) 00:28, 24 May 2020 (UTC)
2018 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina general election moved to draftspace
An article you recently created, 2018 Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina general election, does not have enough sources and citations as written to remain published. It needs more citations from reliable, independent sources. (?) Information that can't be referenced should be removed (verifiability is of central importance on Wikipedia). I've moved your draft to draftspace (with a prefix of "Draft:" before the article title) where you can incubate the article with minimal disruption. When you feel the article meets Wikipedia's general notability guideline and thus is ready for mainspace, please click on the "Submit your draft for review!" button at the top of the page. Boleyn (talk) 18:07, 23 May 2020 (UTC)
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Bkissin (talk) 12:35, 16 June 2020 (UTC)New Democracy is a right-wing party
New Democracy was founded by Konstantinos Karamanlis, who was Prime Minister of Greece for over seven years as a member of the right-wing Greek Rally party before the rise of a far-right military junta in Greece. Greek Rally used to be a right-wing to far-right party under Alexander Papagos, who supported Georgios Grivas, a former member of the far-right Organization X that had collaborated with Nazis against the resistance movement of ELAS during World War II when Greece was under German occupation. Grivas was the leader of the EOKA guerilla organization that fought against British rule in Cyprus, but Makarios III, the right-wing Archbishop and President of Cyprus, rejected the unification of Cyprus and Greece that Grivas and the junta supported and agreed with Karamanlis about the independence of Cyprus. The centrist Democratic Party of Cyprus is supporting Makarios, but allied with the right-wing Solidarity Movement of Eleni Theocharous, a former member of the centre-right Democratic Rally, against current President Nicos Anastasiades, a member of the Democratic Rally who supported the Annan Plan about resolving the Cyprus dispute by accepting the demands of Turkey, an enemy of Greece for the last eight centuries. New Democracy is currently led by Kyriakos Mitsotakis, a nephew of Eleftherios Venizelos of the centrist Liberal Pary who endorsed the irredentist Megali Idea that originated from the centrist Ioannis Kolettis but is also promoted by the far-right Golden Dawn that represents the ideas of Ion Dragoumis, an opponent of the Megali Idea and Venizelos who is considered to be the founder of modern Greek nationalism. Kyriakos Mitsotakis is also the son of Konstantinos Mitsotakis, who was Prime Minister of Greece for three years as a member of New Democracy but founded the centre-right Party of New Liberals after the fall of the junta as a former member of the Centre Union, a centirst party of former Prime Minister Georgios Papandreou whose son Andreas and grandson George became Prime Ministers after the junta as members of the centre-left PASOK. Dora Bakoyannis, sister of Kyriakos Mitsotakis, was a Minister of Foreign Affairs under Kostas Karamanlis, nephew of Konstantinos Karamanlis, but she was expelled from New Democracy by Antonis Samaras, a former Minister of Foreign Affairs under Konstantinos Mitsotakis who was the leader of the right-wing Political Spring after disagreeing with Prime Minister Konstantinos Mitsotakis about the Macedonia naming dispute. Samaras had returned to New Democracy as Leader of the Opposition and rejected the austerity measures of George Papandreou that Bakoyannis had supported before founding the centrist Democratic Alliance. She returned to New Democracy shortly before Samaras became Prime Minister of Greece and continued to implement the austerity measures of Papandreou and Lucas Papademos, who was a technocrat that was supported by both PASOK and New Democracy in a coalition government for a few months before two consecutive elections that led to PASOK and New Democracy continuing their participation in the same government that the Democratic Left of Fotis Kouvelis, a former member of SYRIZA, was also supporting before withdrawing. Despite originating from the Centre Union, Konstantinos Mistotakis and Andreas Papandreou became rivals as leader of different parties after the junta when Konstantinos Karamanlis was Prime Minister of Greece. Mistotakis joined New Democracy before Papandreou became Prime Minister while endorsed by former supporters of the United Democratic Left, a left-wing party that had originated from former members of ELAS. United Democratic Left member Grigoris Lambrakis had been assassinated when Karamanlis was Prime Minister as a member of the Greek Rally before the junta. Kouvelis was succeeded by Thanasis Theocharopoulos as leader of the Democratic Left after SYRIZA won the elections for the first time. Fofi Gennimata then became leader of PASOK, succeeding Evangelos Venizelos who had supported austerity as a minister in the governments of George Papandreou, Papademos and Samaras. The Movement of Democratic Socialists was founded by George Papandreou in opposition to Venizelos when Samaras was Prime Minister of Greece but supported PASOK under the leadership of Gennimata. Yanis Varoufakis, a former advisor of George Papandreou as Leader of Opposition when Konstas Karamanlis was Prime Minister of Greece, and Zoe Konstantopoulou, daughter of Nikos Kontantopoulos who was a member of Centre Union and PASOK and former leader of SYRIZA, left SYRIZA alongside Panagiotis Lafazanis and supported the Popular Unity party in the elections when SYRIZA was supported by Kouvelis and won for a second consecutive time after accepting austerity measures alongside New Democracy and PASOK, with the Democratic Left under Theocharopoulos becoming a member of the Democratic Coalition and Movement of Change under PASOK leader Gennimata, before returning to SYRIZA. Varoufakis and Konstantopoulou have left Popular Unity to found their own parties MeRA25 and Course of Freedom, respectively. Therefore, I believe that New Democracy has always been right-wing with Konstantinos Karamanlis expressing the majority of the party, where the far-right beliefs of Grivas were represented by Failos Kranidiotis, leader of the far-right New Right party and former member of the Political Spring who was expelled from New Democracy by Kyriakos Mitsotakis due to controversial statements regarding the Macedonia naming dispute. A faction of New Democracy that endorses the views of Papagos is represented by Adonis Georgiadis and Makis Voridis, former members of the right-wing to far-right Popular Orthodox Rally that was founded by former New Democracy member Georgios Karatzaferis. Kyriakos Mitsotakis, Dora Bakoyannis and Konstantinos Mitsotakis are representing a centre to centre-right faction of the party as relatives of Eleftherios Venizelos. Just like the Democratic Left and SYRIZA under current leader Alexis Tsipras, PASOK was a centre-left to left-wing party under Andreas Papandreou. PASOK became centre-left under Costas Simitis and centre-left to centre under George Papandreou and centrist under Evangelos Venizelos when supporting the governments of Papademos and Samaras. George Papandreou then became centre-left as leader of the Movement of Democratic Socialists. Gennimata, who is also centre-left as leader of PASOK, Democratic Coalition and Movement for Change and criticized both New Democracy and SYRIZA for austerity, has expelled Venizelos from her party before the last elections. SYRIZA under Konstantopoulos and Alekos Alavanos, Popular Unity and Course of Freedom were left-wing to far-left since they opposed the Communist Party of Greece, a historical far-left party, while MeRA25 is left-wing for being supported by two former PASOK members, specifically Sofia Sakorafa and Kriton Arsenis, the son of former PASOK minister Gerasimos Arsenis and Louka Katseli, who left PASOK under George Papandreou because of austerity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 20:02, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- @5.54.142.32: I know that you've posted this on the talk page already. I'd recommend that you wait for other editors to comment and develop a consensus to make this change. I also think that you should make this paragraph explaining your reasoning more concise. It's far too long to read comfortably, and you could likely express the same reasoning with only a few sentences. Good luck! Ezhao02 (talk) 20:08, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- So you've implicity admitted that you haven't read my lengthy explanation. New Democracy is divided between Karamanlis and Mitsotakis. Karamanlis comes from the Greek Rally and Mistotakis comes from the Centre Union that was divided between the Party of New Liberals of Mitsotakis that joined New Democracy and PASOK that Andreas Papandreou founded alongside former supporters of the United Democratic Left. PASOK shifted from centre-left to centre so it's mostly left-wing base joined SYRIZA that originated from former members of the far-left Communist Party of Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, I actually read your explanation; I was just unable to understand it due to its complexity. Thanks for the shortened version. Do you have reliable sources for the claims you make? Ezhao02 (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- I can find sources because I'm Greek but they won't be the most reliable since they're usually written in Greek and most Greek newspapers are not internationally recognised. But Greek editors or Greek language articles could be useful. My simplified explanation is very well known by virtually every Greek voter but my lengthy one is an attempt to explain the situation to those who are more interested in it. I believe that Greece is more similar to East European and Middle Eastern countries than West European ones because my country gradually abandoned the philosophy of Plato and Aristotle for the religious ideas of Russia. Despite being inspired from and similar to America's and France's, Greece's revolution was different in some important aspects. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 23:03, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- No, I actually read your explanation; I was just unable to understand it due to its complexity. Thanks for the shortened version. Do you have reliable sources for the claims you make? Ezhao02 (talk) 22:15, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
- So you've implicity admitted that you haven't read my lengthy explanation. New Democracy is divided between Karamanlis and Mitsotakis. Karamanlis comes from the Greek Rally and Mistotakis comes from the Centre Union that was divided between the Party of New Liberals of Mitsotakis that joined New Democracy and PASOK that Andreas Papandreou founded alongside former supporters of the United Democratic Left. PASOK shifted from centre-left to centre so it's mostly left-wing base joined SYRIZA that originated from former members of the far-left Communist Party of Greece. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 20:22, 22 June 2020 (UTC)
Greek newspapers should be fine, as long as the articles are from trustworthy newspapers (for facts) and are not opinion pieces. Greek editors and Greek language articles (I'm assuming you're talking about the Greek Wikipedia; please correct me if I'm wrong) are not considered reliable. Please note that any sources you cite should actually state that "center to center-right" only represents factions of ND.
To respond to your point about Greece being more similar to Eastern European and Middle Eastern countries, I don't think that this should make a difference. Parties with factions ranging from the center to the right-wing (or the left-wing) are generally described as "center-right" (or "center-left") on Wikipedia to keep it concise. As the party's political position may change with party leadership, a simple "center-right" or "center-left" provides the greatest stability possible. In addition, the reliable sources we have on the page right now describe the party as center-right. I trust that you will find some sources supporting your position before changing the political position.
P.S. Please remember to sign your posts on talk pages by placing ~~~~ at the end of your posts. Also, indenting your posts (using colons: :, ::, etc.) is helpful for distinguishing different people's comments. -Ezhao02 (talk) 00:20, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry for not knowing how to sign a comment, but just like you said, my sources will be unreliable like those Greek editors and Greek language Wikipedia articles but there is a misconception about New Democracy. Despite the fact that current leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis belongs to a family of two centrist Prime Ministers, he is considered to be right-wing because of former members of Popular Orthodox Rally such as Georgiadis that were actually invited by Samaras, a longtime rival of the Mitsotakis family. The party's right-wing faction is completely unrelated to Mitsotakis. As a result of austerity, the Karamanlis faction that represented Greece's first post-junta and last pre-austerity Prime Ministers had lost it's touch with voters and to avoid losing votes from Golden Dawn just like PASOK lost votes from Syriza, New Democracy treated Golden Dawn as a fringe party like the Communist Party of Greece and adopted the rhetoric of Political Spring and Popular Orthodox Rally to target right-wing voters while Mitsotakis is seeking centrist voters. Mitsotakis needed support from Georgiadis to defeat Meimarakis in the last leadership elections since he would have otherwise lost like his sister Bakoyannis to Samaras. PASOK turned from a major left-wing to a centrist party as small as Golden Dawn and the Communist Party of Greece. Both Mitsotakis and Georgiadis are not reflecting the base of the party and their only major similarity is accepting austerity, unlike Karamanlis and the base of PASOK that is between SYRIZA and Eleftherios and Evangelos Venizelos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 00:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Again, the main problem I have is that the claims you make aren't repeated in reliable sources. Ezhao02 (talk) 00:49, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- They aren't claims since they are historic events but those reliable sources are not covering them. If Kasidiaris becomes a neo-Nazi Prime Minister of Greece, I assume that people will forget Greece's 200-year history of turbulent democracy just like they ignore the history of Russia, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Libya that in my opinion seems more interesting than post-Hitler West European elections. Since Hitler was an enemy of both the liberal capitalism of the First World and the socialist communism of the Second World, it shouldn't be surprising that his conservative nationalist successor would come from a Third World country. After the end of the Cold War, China is slowly but steadily succeeding Russia as a superpower that is communist like the Soviet Union despite it's differences. Russia's friendships with Ahmadinejad, Maduro, Erdogan, Haftar, Assad, Mohammed bin Salman and Trump should not be surprising. After Brexit, both Britain and America feel betrayed from the liberal capitalist West of Merkel, Macron and Trudeau, so their sudden fondness of fascism did not come out of nowhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 01:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Sorry if I was unclear. I wasn't saying that the historic events were the ones needing reliable sources (I suspect they wouldn't be too hard to find). I meant to say that describing ND as "right-wing with center to center-right factions" requires a reliable source, since the current sources describe the party as center-right overall, not as a right-wing party with centrist factions. Ezhao02 (talk) 01:43, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- They aren't claims since they are historic events but those reliable sources are not covering them. If Kasidiaris becomes a neo-Nazi Prime Minister of Greece, I assume that people will forget Greece's 200-year history of turbulent democracy just like they ignore the history of Russia, Iran, Turkey, Egypt and Libya that in my opinion seems more interesting than post-Hitler West European elections. Since Hitler was an enemy of both the liberal capitalism of the First World and the socialist communism of the Second World, it shouldn't be surprising that his conservative nationalist successor would come from a Third World country. After the end of the Cold War, China is slowly but steadily succeeding Russia as a superpower that is communist like the Soviet Union despite it's differences. Russia's friendships with Ahmadinejad, Maduro, Erdogan, Haftar, Assad, Mohammed bin Salman and Trump should not be surprising. After Brexit, both Britain and America feel betrayed from the liberal capitalist West of Merkel, Macron and Trudeau, so their sudden fondness of fascism did not come out of nowhere. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 01:01, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- As I said before, reliable sources are rarely covering Greek political history, but two important distinctions between Karamanlis and Mitsotakis are religion and statism. Popular Orthodox Rally and Papagos were also nationalist, while Karamanlis and Makarios III, despite supporting religion and statism, were not. Golden Dawn is ultranationalist because unlike Popular Orthodox Rally and Papagos, it represents hard euroscepticism. Statism is usually associated with the left-wing, since Evangelos Venizelos, Simitis, Tsipras, Varoufakis, Lafazanis and Koutsoumpas is the corrent order from the more centrist and less statist to the more communist and statist. I think that religion is the main distinction between the statism of both far-right and far-left politicians. Putin uses religion as a mediator between communist China and East European countries who are more appalled from Stalin and West European liberal capitalism than Hitler, but he laments the fall of the Soviet Union as a former KGB agent. West Europe has struggled to integrate Warsaw Pact countries after the Cold War and Putin is probably trying to revive communism alongside the Soviet Union. East European countries are eager to join the new Hitler, whether it is America, Greece or a Middle Eastern country. America went to Vietnam to fight communism, but Greece was the only European country with an actual post-Hitler war against communism that started from guerillas who were originally allied against Nazism. Karamanlis and Papandreou sought votes from the West European liberalism of Mitsotakis and the Russian communism of the United Democratic Left, respectively, but both of them were leading Greece's two major parties that were significantly influenced by Greece's consistent religious conservatism and nationalism. Movement for Change is a small centre-left party but it is the legacy of popular centrist politicians such as Eleftherios Venizelos and Nikolaos Plastiras. Mitsotakis was absorbed into the New Democracy of Karamanlis and Georgios Papandreou was a Prime Minister from the Centre Union before his son Andreas merged it with the United Democratic Left in his PASOK party that was divided between centre-left Movement for Change and left-wing SYRIZA. But both Mitsotakis and Papandreou belonged to the centrism of Movement for Change despite being associated with New Democracy and SYRIZA, respectively. The guerillas of ELAS were divided between the Communist Party of Greece that was banned during the Cold War and the United Democratic Left that was absorbed by PASOK that came from the Centre Union and then SYRIZA that came from the Communist Party of Greece after the junta. Likewise, the People's Party and Papagos were divided between the junta and Karamanlis. The junta and Golden Dawn were accused for crimes so the Popular Orthodox Rally, followed by the Greek Solution, emerged as representatives of the far-right despite also being right-wing in supporting monarchy like Karamanlis while centre-right Mitsotakis, centrist Venizelos and centre-left Papandreou were against it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 02:23, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
I'm not talking about reliable sources for Greek political history, even though the political history does affect the current political position. I would like to see reliable sources calling the party's current position right-wing with center-right as only a faction. Ezhao02 (talk) 02:48, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please read my latest lengthy comment but here's a short one: Independent Greeks was a party that was formed in response to austerity. It accused New Democracy of abandoning the ideas of Karamanlis and embracing both the far-right of Popular Orthodox Rally, the party of Adonis Georgiadis, and the centre to centre-right of Mitsotakis because of a coalition government with PASOK that shifted from centre-left to left-wing under Andreas Papandreou to centre to centre-left under Evangelos Venizelos, who is unrelated to the historical centrist Eleftherios Venizelos who is an uncle of Konstantinos and Kyriakos Mitsotakis and was supported by Georgios Papandreou, father of Andreas. Kammenos failed to reach out to New Democracy's conservative base but Tsipras became the legacy of Andreas Papandreou instead of Movement for Change. But party founder Karamanlis is still represented in New Democracy with two of his nephews and people such as Meimarakis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 02:59, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Ok, let's look at PASOK. Even though there have been small shifts in political position ("from centre-left to left-wing under Andreas Papandreou to centre to centre-left under Evangelos Venizelos", according to you), we still describe PASOK as "center-left" on its article page. This is because even though one would expect a major center-left party (as PASOK used to be) to display these shifts depending on which factions are in power, the party as a whole remains center-left. The same reasoning applies to ND. Again, please find reliable sources saying that ND is not simply a center-right party. Ezhao02 (talk) 03:09, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- It's all relevant so we could say that Golden Dawn, Kranidiotis and junta are far-right, Popular Orthodox Rally, Political Spring and Papagos are right-wing, Karamanlis is centre-right, Mitsotakis, Georgios Papandreou, Eleftherios and Evangelos Venizelos are centre, Gennimata, Simitis and George Papandreou are centre-left, Andreas Papandreou, Tsipras and Varoufakis are left-wing and Lafazanis, Konstantopoulou and Koutsoumpas are far-left. But this is a simplification of the political spectrum since there are differences between Varoufakis and Tsipras or Konstantopoulou and Koutsoumpas. Evangelos Venizelos also denies having the same views as Mitsotakis. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 03:21, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- @5.54.142.32: I'm getting a bit confused here. It seems like you're arguing that ND has both hard right-wing and centrist factions. This would be a normal characteristic of any major center-right party, so it still seems like the best option is to describe ND as simply center-right. -Ezhao02 (talk) 14:44, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Andreas Papandreou founded PASOK as the son of centrist politician Georgios Papandreou who was a Prime Minister from the Centre Union party before the junta. Konstantinos Mitsotakis, a former member of Centre Union, founded the centre-right Party of New Liberals before joining New Democracy of Konstantinos Karamanlis who was Prime Minister from the right-wing National Radical Union before the junta. PASOK seeked votes from the left-wing United Democratic Left because the far-left Communist Party of Greece became legal and wasn't banned from elections anymore. Mitsotakis tried to shift New Democracy towards the centre but his Foreign Minister Antonis Samaras left alongside a few other lawmakers to found the far-right Political Spring and caused elections that were won by PASOK. In the meantime, members of the Communist Party of Greece left to found SYRIZA that was left-wing like United Democratic Left. So PASOK shifted to the centre by supporting reforms and joining the euro under Simitis. Kostas Karamanlis, nephew of Konstantinos, became leader of New Democracy and Prime Minister until the financial crisis. Then George Papandreou, son of Andreas and leader of PASOK, became unpopular as Prime Minister for implementing austerity and formed a coalition with New Democracy under Samaras. After George Papandreou, PASOK has never been in government without New Democracy and Samaras in particular, while SYRIZA became PASOK's successor as New Democracy's major opponent. Samaras, despite leaving New Democracy under Mitsotakis because of being even more right-wing than Karamanlis, had managed to beat Dora Bakoyannis, daughter of Mitsotakis, in the leadership elections. Current leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis and son of Konstantinos would not have been able to beat Meimarakis without the support of Adonis Georgiadis, a former member of the far-right Popular Orthodox Rally. New Democracy retained it's right-wing base unlike PASOK despite austerity because it always was in coalition with PASOK when implementing it, while Greece's far-right parties were either Golden Dawn that was accused of crimes similarly to the Communist Party of Greece before the junta, Popular Orthodox Rally that was dissolved, or Independent Greeks that unsuccessfully sought votes from Karamanlis supporters as a right-wing party but was dissolved after allying with SYRIZA against New Democracy. And just like the Political Spring, Popular Orthodox Rally and Independent Greeks came from former New Democracy members. New Democracy has an appeal to the centre because after the decline of PASOK, parties such as The River and Union of Centrists failed to gain steam while SYRIZA shifted further to the centre-left as Greece's first left-wing government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- Do you agree with my previous assertion? -Ezhao02 (talk) 02:18, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Andreas Papandreou founded PASOK as the son of centrist politician Georgios Papandreou who was a Prime Minister from the Centre Union party before the junta. Konstantinos Mitsotakis, a former member of Centre Union, founded the centre-right Party of New Liberals before joining New Democracy of Konstantinos Karamanlis who was Prime Minister from the right-wing National Radical Union before the junta. PASOK seeked votes from the left-wing United Democratic Left because the far-left Communist Party of Greece became legal and wasn't banned from elections anymore. Mitsotakis tried to shift New Democracy towards the centre but his Foreign Minister Antonis Samaras left alongside a few other lawmakers to found the far-right Political Spring and caused elections that were won by PASOK. In the meantime, members of the Communist Party of Greece left to found SYRIZA that was left-wing like United Democratic Left. So PASOK shifted to the centre by supporting reforms and joining the euro under Simitis. Kostas Karamanlis, nephew of Konstantinos, became leader of New Democracy and Prime Minister until the financial crisis. Then George Papandreou, son of Andreas and leader of PASOK, became unpopular as Prime Minister for implementing austerity and formed a coalition with New Democracy under Samaras. After George Papandreou, PASOK has never been in government without New Democracy and Samaras in particular, while SYRIZA became PASOK's successor as New Democracy's major opponent. Samaras, despite leaving New Democracy under Mitsotakis because of being even more right-wing than Karamanlis, had managed to beat Dora Bakoyannis, daughter of Mitsotakis, in the leadership elections. Current leader Kyriakos Mitsotakis and son of Konstantinos would not have been able to beat Meimarakis without the support of Adonis Georgiadis, a former member of the far-right Popular Orthodox Rally. New Democracy retained it's right-wing base unlike PASOK despite austerity because it always was in coalition with PASOK when implementing it, while Greece's far-right parties were either Golden Dawn that was accused of crimes similarly to the Communist Party of Greece before the junta, Popular Orthodox Rally that was dissolved, or Independent Greeks that unsuccessfully sought votes from Karamanlis supporters as a right-wing party but was dissolved after allying with SYRIZA against New Democracy. And just like the Political Spring, Popular Orthodox Rally and Independent Greeks came from former New Democracy members. New Democracy has an appeal to the centre because after the decline of PASOK, parties such as The River and Union of Centrists failed to gain steam while SYRIZA shifted further to the centre-left as Greece's first left-wing government. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 18:50, 23 June 2020 (UTC)
- New Democracy's right-wing faction is much bigger than it's centre-right to centrist one that is almost as small as it's right-wing to far-right one. Please read my comments since they're giving a clearly defined insight of Greece's poltical situation. Karamanlis was inspired by right-wing politican Charles de Gaulle who granted him an asylum during the years of the junta that has been compared to Spain's Franco and Golden Dawn in their Nazi sympathies. Despite the centre's dominance during the era of Venizelos, the Centre Union party of Georgios Papandreou was divided between PASOK of his son Andreas that was replaced by SYRIZA as New Democracy's rival and the Party of New Liberals of Konstantinos Mitsotakis that joined New Democracy. The Independent Greeks of Kammenos were claiming to represent Karamanlis while they were generally regarded as right-wing in comparison to the far-right Golden Dawn. Other parties to the right of New Democracy, such as Political Spring, Popular Orthodox Rally and Greek Solution, did not exist in the Hellenic Parliament at the same time as Golden Dawn, so they could be considered as closer to the far-right than the Independent Greeks. Political Spring founder Samaras and Popular Orthodox Rally member Adonis Georgiadis became leader and deputy leader of New Democracy, respectively, during the years of austerity. Konstantinos Karamanlis was the founder of New Democracy and his nephew Kostas was the last leader and Prime Minister of the party before the financial crisis. But since New Democracy has accepted austerity, it needed to retain it's right-wing ideology without Karamanlis for avoiding the fate of PASOK that was mostly absorbed by SYRIZA. So for defeating Meimarakis who was right-wing like Karamanlis, Mitsotakis needed to ally with the right-wing to far-right Adonis Georgiadis. Some people have the misconception that Mitsotakis abandoned the centre to centre-right ideas of his father Konstantinos and his sister Dora Bakoyannis for the sake of the right-wing to far-right of Samaras and Georgiadis, but that was merely a concession due to the fact that the party was losing touch with it's right-wing voters by accepting austerity and participating in coalition governments alongside PASOK and centrist politicians such as former Prime Minister Lucas Papademos and former PASOK leader and recurring government minister Evangelos Venizelos. The party tolerated Samaras and Georgiadis just for keeping itself intact as the legacy of Karamanlis in order to avoid a division like the one that resulted in the defeat of Konstantinos Mitsotakis by a returning PASOK that ruled for the next eleven years. Out of the eighteen years of New Democracy in government, only three of them had Mitsotakis as Prime Minister before the country's last elections that were won by his son Kyriakos. Greece was significantly divided following a civil war that happened by guerillas who were allied against Nazis before becoming enemies even during German occupation. But after the fall of the junta, the far-right of Golden Dawn and the far-left of the previously banned Communist Party of Greece had emerged, so the National Radical Union of Karamanlis and the United Democratic Left joined forces with centrists such as Mitsotakis and Andreas Papandreou, respectively. The alliance of Karamanlis and Mistotakis is still existing but Papandreou's son George is a member of the small Movement for Change while the majority of PASOK, both in voters and ministers such as Giannis Ragousis, is a part of SYRIZA, a party that despite it's origins in the Communist Party of Greece has changed a lot by the withdrawal of members such as former leader Alekos Alavanos, Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, Energy Minister Panagiotis Lafazanis and Parliament Speaker Zoe Konstantopoulou, who is the daughter of former SYRIZA leader Nikos Konstantopoulos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 05:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Please find a reliable source for your first statement: "New Democracy's right-wing faction is much bigger than [its] centre-right to centrist one that is almost as small as [its] right-wing to far-right one." None of the history you mention makes that clear. In fact, using the history to argue that would count as synthesis, which is not allowed under Wikipedia policy.. -Ezhao02 (talk) 14:57, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- New Democracy's right-wing faction is much bigger than it's centre-right to centrist one that is almost as small as it's right-wing to far-right one. Please read my comments since they're giving a clearly defined insight of Greece's poltical situation. Karamanlis was inspired by right-wing politican Charles de Gaulle who granted him an asylum during the years of the junta that has been compared to Spain's Franco and Golden Dawn in their Nazi sympathies. Despite the centre's dominance during the era of Venizelos, the Centre Union party of Georgios Papandreou was divided between PASOK of his son Andreas that was replaced by SYRIZA as New Democracy's rival and the Party of New Liberals of Konstantinos Mitsotakis that joined New Democracy. The Independent Greeks of Kammenos were claiming to represent Karamanlis while they were generally regarded as right-wing in comparison to the far-right Golden Dawn. Other parties to the right of New Democracy, such as Political Spring, Popular Orthodox Rally and Greek Solution, did not exist in the Hellenic Parliament at the same time as Golden Dawn, so they could be considered as closer to the far-right than the Independent Greeks. Political Spring founder Samaras and Popular Orthodox Rally member Adonis Georgiadis became leader and deputy leader of New Democracy, respectively, during the years of austerity. Konstantinos Karamanlis was the founder of New Democracy and his nephew Kostas was the last leader and Prime Minister of the party before the financial crisis. But since New Democracy has accepted austerity, it needed to retain it's right-wing ideology without Karamanlis for avoiding the fate of PASOK that was mostly absorbed by SYRIZA. So for defeating Meimarakis who was right-wing like Karamanlis, Mitsotakis needed to ally with the right-wing to far-right Adonis Georgiadis. Some people have the misconception that Mitsotakis abandoned the centre to centre-right ideas of his father Konstantinos and his sister Dora Bakoyannis for the sake of the right-wing to far-right of Samaras and Georgiadis, but that was merely a concession due to the fact that the party was losing touch with it's right-wing voters by accepting austerity and participating in coalition governments alongside PASOK and centrist politicians such as former Prime Minister Lucas Papademos and former PASOK leader and recurring government minister Evangelos Venizelos. The party tolerated Samaras and Georgiadis just for keeping itself intact as the legacy of Karamanlis in order to avoid a division like the one that resulted in the defeat of Konstantinos Mitsotakis by a returning PASOK that ruled for the next eleven years. Out of the eighteen years of New Democracy in government, only three of them had Mitsotakis as Prime Minister before the country's last elections that were won by his son Kyriakos. Greece was significantly divided following a civil war that happened by guerillas who were allied against Nazis before becoming enemies even during German occupation. But after the fall of the junta, the far-right of Golden Dawn and the far-left of the previously banned Communist Party of Greece had emerged, so the National Radical Union of Karamanlis and the United Democratic Left joined forces with centrists such as Mitsotakis and Andreas Papandreou, respectively. The alliance of Karamanlis and Mistotakis is still existing but Papandreou's son George is a member of the small Movement for Change while the majority of PASOK, both in voters and ministers such as Giannis Ragousis, is a part of SYRIZA, a party that despite it's origins in the Communist Party of Greece has changed a lot by the withdrawal of members such as former leader Alekos Alavanos, Finance Minister Yanis Varoufakis, Energy Minister Panagiotis Lafazanis and Parliament Speaker Zoe Konstantopoulou, who is the daughter of former SYRIZA leader Nikos Konstantopoulos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 05:38, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Did you read my comment beyond my first sentence? Anyway, for the same reason that PASOK lost the majority of it's votes that went to SYRIZA, New Democracy will also stop being a major party if it abandoned the right-wing ideology of the Karamanlis family. But people will say that Greeks will vote for Kasidiaris because they lost their mind after leaving the eurozone and not being rich enough to live in big houses, smoke cigarettes, buy ouzo drinks and pay prostitutes in Mykonos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 16:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- I did in fact read your comment beyond the first sentence. All of these statements reflect your opinion, especially when you seem to be trying to predict the future. Please cite reliable sources. Thanks, Ezhao02 (talk) 18:05, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
- Did you read my comment beyond my first sentence? Anyway, for the same reason that PASOK lost the majority of it's votes that went to SYRIZA, New Democracy will also stop being a major party if it abandoned the right-wing ideology of the Karamanlis family. But people will say that Greeks will vote for Kasidiaris because they lost their mind after leaving the eurozone and not being rich enough to live in big houses, smoke cigarettes, buy ouzo drinks and pay prostitutes in Mykonos. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 5.54.142.32 (talk) 16:35, 24 June 2020 (UTC)
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