Talk:Yuriy Sedykh

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He also married Kondratyeva, the 100 metre champion at the 1980 Olympics. Different end of the physique scale from Lisovskaya! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.45.193.152 (talk) 22:01, 4 February 2010 (UTC)

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Russian

Sources do say Russian. @Billsmith60:. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 15:35, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

To help inform discussion: the relevant guidance here is MOS:OPENPARABIO, which says that we should indicate the context (location, nationality, etc.) for the activities that made the person notable. Note as well that it is nationality, rather than ethnicity that we are interested in here (MOS:CONTEXTBIO). Britannica simply gives his nationality as Russian; ESPN tells us that he grew up in Nikopol in Ukraine; Athletics Weekly says he was born in Novocherkassk (Russia), but also that he grew up in Nikopol, and later moved to France; Sports Reference says that he was born in Novocherkassk, competed for the Soviet Union, and that he was affiliated to Burevestnik Kiev, Avangard Kiev and CSKA Moskva; Associated Press calls him Russian.

Here's a question I don't know the answer to: when he was competing, he would have had a passport - would that have said 'USSR', or 'Russia/Ukraine' on it? Assuming the former, might we be as well simply describing him as a Soviet athlete in the lead, and then go on to explain his birthplace and where he grew up in the body of the text, thereby avoiding having to make assumptions about his actual nationality? That would be accurate with regards to the context in which he became notable (he was competing for the Soviet Union), and would mean we don't have to worry about arguing the toss over this. (Who knows - maybe he applied for French nationality - we surely don't want to end up calling him French!). Girth Summit _(blether) 18:00, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Dear Lord! I've gone cross-eyed! Thanks, GS for the summary. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:09, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Ukraine and Russia were then Soviet Union. He is then Soviet? --Deepfriedokra (talk) 18:13, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I think so; if someone with deep experience in this sort of article tells me differently I'd listen to them, but from my reading of the relevant guidance, absent some sort of well-documented statement of national identity from the subject, the thing we ought to do is give the nationality of the country that he represented as a sportsman - which was the Soviet Union. I will probably make that change in the coming days, if nobody objects. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:18, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Make it so. It is unfortunate not to hear from @Levvi1an:, who has strong feelings on the matter. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 22:24, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

From the username similarity, I assumed it was a sock of Levivich, but it's probably not quite concrete enough to block them for. Girth Summit _(blether) 22:32, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Levivich would never do such things. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:01, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

No, he'd have been much more dastardly. Girth Summit _(blether) 23:05, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

@Hey man im josh and Billsmith60: Asking stakeholders to join discussion. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 23:08, 21 April 2022 (UTC)

Him being a part of the USSR makes it difficult. We know that he's a Soviet, but that's all emcompassing.

The place of birth listed on the English Wikipedia is is about 71 kilometers from the border of Ukraine, while where he's said to have grown up, Nikopol is in Ukraine and roughly 387 km away from the border of Russia. The article also mentions that he spent time training in Kiev, lending more credence to being Ukrainian (though not confirming it). I think to figure this out we need one of a few things;

• Parents place of birth
• An interview of him speaking
• Confirmation of where he grew up, and around when he moved there

He almost certainly spoke both Ukranian and Russian, as he spent time training both places. Although it's possible to have got by in Ukraine at the time without speaking the language.

Just wanted to share where I'm at right now in case someone can jump off any of this and connect something I haven't, I'm genuinely interested in figuring this one out. Hey man im josh (talk) 01:23, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

I don't think any of these things will help us. Lots of people have different nationalities from their parents, we can't assume his matches theirs; interpreting an interview of him speaking (presumably to try to ascertain nationality from his accent or language?) would be WP:OR; we have confirmation of where he grew up, but we can't jump from that to assume a nationality. The available sources essentially describe him as a Russian who grew up in Ukraine; the point I'm making is that, during the period in which he did the things for which he is notable, such distinctions were less meaningful that they are today. My proposal is that in the first sentence of the lead, we say he was a track and field athlete who competed for the USSR, and then in the Early Life section, we say where he was born, and where he grew up, which I think satisfies the MOS guidance, and is accurate. Girth Summit _(blether) 08:51, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

да, товарищ --Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:27, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

It's weird how the internet has made me recognize a couple Russian words.

Agree with Girth Summit, his nationality is Soviet and there's no real point in differentiating with how grey it is. Hey man im josh (talk) 11:52, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

One day the peoples of the world will see we are all one people and stop following puffed up bullfrog nationalist demagogues. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 11:55, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

Changes made. Girth Summit _(blether) 11:05, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I have not had a chance to contribute to this discussion yet and, bingo, the page is changed with great haste! I do not agree with the changes made. I'll add my tuppence worth hers later, as I'm busy today, and in the meantime will refrain from adding a "neutrality disputed" tag to the page Billsmith60 (talk) 12:28, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Billsmith60, you were pinged, and you didn't comment. I don't think it's fair to call a change after two days, with three people agreeing and nobody disagreeing, 'great haste'. Please do however post your thoughts when you have time and we can consider it. Girth Summit _(blether) 12:54, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

@Billsmith60: Intrigued. I thought GS's rationale made a lot of sense. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 13:10, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I have invited User talk:2A02:1388:2081:3FEA:2882:C745:4A70:92F2 to the discussion. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 14:20, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

If only it were possible to invite /64 ranges - they've probably moved on. I have to say though that if they were editing through an account, they'd probably be blocked already for disruptive editing (e.g. this and this). I am not very hopeful that someone willing to remove other peoples' comments from talk pages is someone who will be willing to engage in constructive dialogue here, but perhaps I'll be surprised. Girth Summit _(blether) 16:04, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Meh. I did block them for disruptive editing. I then unblocked them 'cause I'd inadvertently involved myself. Noting continued lack of discussion. --Deepfriedokra (talk) 16:40, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello everyone. First of all, I don't know what 'pinged' means here. Certainly, I received no notifications. Second, inviting the user who had vandalised this article and people's Talk pages is insane: correctness gone mad. Anyhow, I think it's clear enough that Sedykh was born in the Russian SSR and moved to the Ukrainian SSR as a child, where he grew up and spent his formative years. How much more 'Ukrainian' would he need to be? He then became part of the Soviet military/sporting juggernaut and expanded his horizons. I would be fine with 'Russian-born Ukrainian athlete who represented the USSR'. Simply to call him 'Soviet' is a cop out. If my logic is found wanting, then that's fair enough. But please then ensure that every notable USSR athlete or sports person not from Russia is described simply as 'Soviet'. To assist you, examples include: Nellie Kim (Tajikistan, gymnast), Jüri Tamm (Estonia, hammer), Zvetlana Boguinskaya (Belarus, gymnast), Viktor Saneyev (Georgia, triple jump) and Sergei Bubka (Ukraine, pole vault). Some of these people are among the greatest performers in history. There is no consistency on how they are described. But I strongly recommend that you avoid stirring up that particular hornets' nest. Regards, Billsmith60 (talk) 19:56, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

I also meant to add that 'Britannica is a weather-cock source: yesterday it was describing Sedykh as 'Soviet' (I kid you not, as I used it for his place of birth) Billsmith60 (talk) 20:03, 23 April 2022 (UTC)

Billsmith60: 'pinged' is described at WP:PING. It happened to you twice above - I can't account for you not receiving notifications, unless you have them switched off in your user preferences (they are switched on by default). Anyway, you're here now.

There has been no vandalism that I can see. There has been disruptive editing, but we don't treat that in the same way as vandalism.

For us to make a definitive statement about someone's nationality, where there is room for doubt we need definitive sourcing to support it. If someone was born in England, lived in England all their lives and played for the English football team, nobody is going to complain about using the descriptor 'English' (although there will inevitably be the occasional person who comes along and changes it to 'British'). In this case, we have zero sources that actually call him Ukrainian - there are no grounds for us doing so that would not be fairly described as original research. There are two sources that directly describe him as Russian, although I suspect that they are purely basing that on his place of birth, which is not what our MOS advocates and so I do not think we need to slavishly follow them. Hence my compromise proposal.

And no, I do not think it would be a good idea to allow this particular content dispute to spill over onto the pages of every Soviet athlete. Let's focus on trying to get this one right. Other stuff exists, etc. Girth Summit _(blether) 09:12, 24 April 2022 (UTC)