Talk:Wings Over Jordan Choir

Commons files used on this page or its Wikidata item have been nominated for deletion

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• Wings-over-jordan.png
• Worth Kramer.jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 01:08, 7 February 2022 (UTC)

On FAC

Nathan Obral Article length will definitely be an obstacle to FAC in this case. At 12338 words, it would need substantial cutting, on the order of 1/3, to meet the requirements for length and summary style (FACR#2 and #4). The length issue is exacerbated by heavy use of quoteboxes which make it seem even longer. I think the organization might be criticized, since it's mostly a history section to the exclusion of other organization. It might be better to split off other top level sections based on theme (looking at musical FAs might be helpful here.) And why two infoboxes, this is almost always clutter? (t · c) buidhe 02:06, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

IMO, this article is less a content fork than a coatrack. Although its forking from WHKW is not surprising, there's a lot of very detailed radio-station history (particularly in the explanatory footnotes) which is irrelevant to the choir and distracts from the subject. All the best, Miniapolis 17:00, 29 April 2022 (UTC)

Personnel split

The Personnel section has been tagged for splitting, and I agree per WP:TOOBIG. Miniapolis 00:26, 22 April 2022 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Wings Over Jordan Choir/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ruthgrace (talk · contribs) 03:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Hello, I will be reviewing this article over the next couple days. Ruthgrace (talk) 03:57, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

It looks like a review was attempted by someone else, who passed the article. However, this review was invalidated by evaluation in the June backlog drive for "No reviewing done". Just noting this explicitly here in case there's any confusion. Ruthgrace (talk) 04:10, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

So far, I've only done a first-pass skim of the article. It's an awesome article - super interesting piece of history, and the prose is good. I agree with some of the discussion in the talk page about the article being too long. There is a good chunck of content about the associated radio show, which I feel is tangential to an article about the choir. I will do an in depth review and provide commentary on specific sections, but overall I'm thinking that I won't pass this article as it is. I'm leaving this comment early on in my review process so article contributors can tell me if there's a reason I'm not seeing that this shouldn't be done (cc User:Nathan_Obral). On the bright side, I think this article is really a great piece of work, and there's enough material for two good articles, if the content about the radio show is split off. Ruthgrace (talk) 04:18, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

Copyvios tool report looks good to me. Some stuff was highlighted by the report, but you've properly quoted and attributed it.

I will go section by section and post updates here as I go along.

Lead

Looks great overall and makes me excited to read the rest of the article. Two minor points:

• First sentence: As I mentioned, I would prefer the Wings Over Jordan radio show to be split out into a separate article. If this is done, you can link that in the lead instead of having it in bold.
• I think there's a grammatical error in this sentence. What does the "both" in "helping to both preserve" refer to? It's unclear to me.

Billed as one of the world's greatest Negro choirs, the Wings Over Jordan Choir is regarded as a forerunner[10] of the civil rights movement[11] and a driving force in the development of choral music[12] helping to both preserve[13] by introducing traditional spirituals to a mainstream audience.[14]

reading it again -- maybe it's meant to say "preserve both" instead of "both preserve". Ruthgrace (talk) 04:33, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

I will continue by reviewing the History section tomorrow. Ruthgrace (talk) 04:31, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

History

1935–1938: Formation

Cleveland origins

• The first paragraph is really good content, but it's mostly biographical details about Reverend Settle that aren't necessarily relevant to the choir. I recommend splitting out such details into a separate article dedicated to the Reverend and linking that here.

rest of the section looks great!

WGAR's The Negro Hour

• I think the source for this bit (https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-jan-20-1938-2865343/) actually says 'the Negro Hour Choir, now known as "Wings Over Jordan"'

the choir—now known as The Negro Hour Choir

That's it for now. I will continue the review another time. Ruthgrace (talk) 03:28, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Going national on CBS

Here's where I think there starts to be some detail that belong in an article about The Negro Hour radio show that don't necessarily belong in the article about the Wings of Jordan Choir

• In my opinion, these details are more about The Negro Hour than the Wings of Jordan Choir

On September 26, 1937, WGAR switched affiliation from NBC's Blue Network to the Columbia Broadcasting System (CBS).[42] The success of The Negro Hour caught CBS' attention, particularly that of executive director Sterling Fisher[41] and musical director Davidson Taylor.[22]

Same with this

• Nashville religious leader Henry Allen Boyd appeared on the December 5, 1937, Negro Hour, the first non-Cleveland guest speaker.[53]

1938–1942: Broad popularity

Worth Kramer's direction

Looks great. No comments. I have been clicking through all the citations I can throughout the article, and it's clear that there's been a lot of dedicated and careful research put into this. Really appreciate it!

Concert tours

• I think this is a bit too much detail, that belongs more to a different article about the radio show. I think it would be good to just have one sentences describing the listener-ship for the article being reviewed.

Wings Over Jordan became CBS's highest-profile sustaining program, with the network agreeing to cover all airtime costs; this removed the need for commercial sponsorship.[69] Although it had an estimated audience of ten million listeners every week[72] and was reportedly one of the most-listened to religious radio programs,[44] sustaining programs were not rated (unlike sponsored programs) and no definite audience measurements exist.[73] It was not uncommon for predominantly-Black neighborhoods in Cleveland to have most of their radios tuned to WGAR[11] on porches or next to open windows, however, so others could listen.[16]

• I couldn't figure out where in the reference (https://infoweb.newsbank.com/apps/news/document-view?p=NewsBank&docref=news/173EFEED4641C2C8&f=basic) it attributed being able to book certain venues to Worth Kramer.

Worth Kramer's direction has also been credited with the group's obtaining bookings at venues otherwise hostile to Blacks.[10]

• I couldn't find this information in the citation (https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-jan-04-1941-2882151/)

Concert tours at this time included daily performances, almost always at a different venue

That's it for now. More later. Sorry, this review is going to take me a few more days at this rate. Ruthgrace (talk) 17:06, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

Guest speakers

I think this section should be part of an article about The Negro Hour radio show instead. It's not exactly about the choir.

International reach

Looks good! I checked all the references I could, too.

Acclaim, records and awards

• The paragraph that starts like this is also more about the radio show than the choir, and I recommend it be moved to an article about the radio show

The program's greatest recognition in the radio industry came when...

• Couldn't find the quoted bit in the citation (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/91474603/listening-in-with-kscj/)

...a nationwide poll conducted annually by Lawrence D. Reddick to recognize people and groups for improving race relations "in terms of real democracy."

• I think there's a grammatical error here around the quotation

Settle was placed on the 1939 honor roll for his role with the program, "outstanding of [sic] radio series rendered by Negroes the previous year,"[127] and accepted the honor on the February 18, 1940, broadcast.

Maybe it should be without the word "program"? I think the "of" within the quotation can also be removed for easier readability. another readability improvement (in my opinion, at least) is that you could remove "the previous year" since it's kind of implied.

Settle was placed on the 1939 honor roll for his role with the "outstanding... radio series rendered by Negroes",[127] and accepted the honor on the February 18, 1940, broadcast.

• I think you might have the wrong citation (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/91474603/listening-in-with-kscj/) for this one. I can't find the info in the citation link.

Schomburg Collection Honor Roll listings for 1939, 1943, 1945

That's it for now! more another time. Ruthgrace (talk) 23:12, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

1942–1946: The war years

Office of War Information alliance

This section is a really fascinating perspective on the historical significance of the radio show associated with the choir. However, I think the only details relevant to the choir in this section are the anti-propaganda recordings and vinyl. I suggest moving this content to another article that is about the associated radio show.

Changes

• I could only find in the source (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/91699237/negro-choirs-ryman-recital-well/) that she sang soprano and not contralto. Looks like another source that you have further down mentions contralto (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/91701342/dillard-briefs/).

In addition to singing contralto and soprano for the choir,[166] Jones trained under Hall as a student at Dillard University.

rest of the section looks great :) Signing off for a moment. Will continue later today. Ruthgrace (talk) 19:06, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

European USO tour

• This sentence is more about the USO than the choir. I recommend removing it since this information is already in the linked United Service Organizations article.

A collaboration by six social-service organizations, the USO was established in 1941 to raise the morale of military personnel.

• there's a semicolon here but the clause before and the clause after the semi-colon aren't obviously related. I recommend making this into 2 separate sentences.

Not all USO canteens in the U.S. were integrated or encouraged integration;[185] two former choir members, Paul Breckenridge and Albert Meadows, performed for a Black audience of 1,000 at Shreveport, Louisiana's Barksdale Air Force Base on January 3, 1945. Campbell was also tasked with overseeing the choir's activities during their engagement.

• I think this bit about other groups that performed earlier as part of the USO is not relevant in the context of this article about the choir.

The first "Negro Unit" camp show toured in 1943 with Willie Bryant, Kenneth Spencer and Ram Ramirez; Bryant said when he returned, "The boys want more entertainment and especially live entertainment".[188] The following year, Harlem-based producer Dick Campbell—the USO's coordinator of Camp Show Negro talent—staged the musical Porgy and Bess in a six-month tour;[189]

Maybe you could update it to something like this

Harlem-based producer Dick Campbell, the USO's coordinator of Camp Show Negro talent, was also tasked with overseeing the choir's activities during their engagement.[190]

I stopped at The USO invitation was the first to a religious musical organization and will continue on later. Ruthgrace (talk) 01:11, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

• The citation (https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-feb-24-1945-2944125/) says that it was the "first Negro spiritual organization" not that it was the first religious music organization. This other citation (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/92094302/wings-over-jordan-set-for-overseas-tour/) says it's the "first spiritual organization"

The USO invitation was the first to a religious musical organization, and was the largest group of entertainers taken overseas.

• The detail about aerial and submarine warfare isn't in the citation, probably because it's implied. So I wonder if it shouldn't be in Wikipedia either.

For security purposes (aerial and submarine warfare), the choir's departure was a military secret.

MTO and ETO

• How did you figure out the year that Slaughter joined Wings Over Jordan based on the citation (https://myauctionfinds.com/2012/09/04/kenneth-slaughter-wings-over-jordan/) ?

The choir's arrival also had family bonds: PFC Carl Slaughter of Columbus, Ohio, was the brother of tour participant Kenneth Slaughter, who had joined the choir in 1942.

• I'm not sure how this detail is relevant to the choir. Was the choir somehow related to integration between the two regiments?

Members of the 92nd Division and the all-white 473rd Infantry Regiment were tasked with finding any remaining Nazi collaborators, liberating La Spezia and Genoa on April 27, 1945.[212] The rare integrated front lines were said by Pittsburgh Courier war correspondent Collins George to resemble "a League of Nations, what with Japanese-Americans, American Negros, whites, Brazilians and the British all joined in the inspired race to cover the territory in Northern Italy".[210]

• extra ]] brackets here

The claim that Columbus' ashes were in the urn was contested during re-interment]];

• Wrong citation? can't find this info in the source (https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-jan-26-1946-2904884/)

Three military personnel were assigned to the group, which traveled in a six-by-six truck

• This citation doesn't mention specific cities that the choir performed in ()

When the ETO phase of the USO tour ended on January 27, 1946, the choir had performed in Le Harve and Paris, the Belgium towns of Brussels, Liège and Antwerp, and the German cities of Bad Nauheim, Frankfurt and Stuttgart

• There are some details here about other choirs that substituted for Wings Over Jordan, and I think it would be better to stick to the main subject and just mention which choirs substituted for them, omitting details about these other choirs and their performance dates.

The first choir selected as a "pinch hitter" for Wings was Fisk University's, noted for its ties to the Jubilee Singers.[228] Originating from Nashville's WLAC, the Fisk choir's Easter broadcast on April 1, 1945, was also broadcast overseas on shortwave.[229] Other groups performing in the time slot included the Agricultural and Technical College of North Carolina's Choral Society from Greensboro,[230] The Legend Singers of St. Louis,[231] the Camp Meetin' Choir of Charlotte, North Carolina and Alabama's Tuskegee Institute Choir.[232] The Fisk University Choir returned to perform in the time slot in November[222] and December, including a program of Christmas carols.[233] The Tuskegee Institute Choir was the last group to substitute in February 1946, with Wings Over Jordan resuming when the choir returned on March 3, 1946, after a year-long hiatus.[234]

I will continue with the 1946–1955: Postwar activities section another day. Ruthgrace (talk) 01:51, 5 July 2022 (UTC)

1946–1955: Postwar activities

More touring

• I think that these sentences would be better served in an article about Settle rather than this article about the choir. If you want, you can keep the one about the "Glynn" spelling, but I think the bit about the sailfish is definitely out of place.

He announced a change in the spelling of his first name to Glynn after being named heir to an island in the Dan River in his grandfather's will, which stipulated that the heir had to have "Glynn" and "Settle" in their name.[248] Settle was admitted to the West Palm Beach Sailfish Club after catching a record-sized sailfish, and was the club's first Black member.[249]

Rest of the section looks good. I'll continue with the August 1947 walkout section next time. Ruthgrace (talk) 00:48, 7 July 2022 (UTC)

August 1947 walkout

• I think it's a little bit unclear what "hours in advance" refers to here. In advance of what?

Remote broadcasts coincided with the choir's touring (which had reached 400 cities in 46 states),[251] and they met at affiliate studios hours in advance.

Maybe consider specifying that it's in advance of the broadcast time, so it's not interpreted that the studio broadcasts happened hours in advance of the tour concerts?

Remote broadcasts coincided with the choir's touring (which had reached 400 cities in 46 states),[251] and they met at affiliate studios hours in advance of each broadcast.

• I don't see in the source where it says "according to one estimate, as many as 250 people had participated in the choir in some capacity"

its number decreased to 17 singers in the summer of 1947; according to one estimate, as many as 250 people had participated in the choir in some capacity.

• apologies if I missed it, but I couldn't find in the cited sources (https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-mar-09-1946-2943620/ and https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-nov-13-1976-2943597/) where it says that Evelyn Freeman Roberts was a classically trained pianist.

Original member Tommy Roberts rejoined the choir for the postwar tour as a featured soloist and recruited his wife, Evelyn Freeman Roberts—a classically trained pianist and swing bandleader—as an arranger.

• The clipping linked (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/92389334/young-saints-go-marching-inand-up/) doesn't have the quote -- as far as I can tell, it's only the first section of the article. Do you have a clipping for the rest of the article?

Settle fired Evelyn several months later when her work began to rival his in popularity; Tommy to quit in protest, later saying: "When (Settle) fired her, he fired me".

• missing "for the welfare" in the quote, or missing ellipses in this quote. (source: https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-aug-30-1947-2865818/)

Allegations were made of "a total lack of consideration for the members of the organization" as Settle refused to grant vacation time and laid them off when they were not on tour.[250]

should be e.g.

Allegations were made of "a total lack of consideration for the welfare of the members of the organization" as Settle refused to grant vacation time and laid them off when they were not on tour.[250]

• I couldn't find this information in the citation (https://web.archive.org/web/20211227054309/https://newspaperarchive.com/entertainment-clipping-aug-30-1947-2865818/), but maybe it's on the second page of the citation which I can't figure out how to access

Elkins' unrelated resignation was met with bitter insults from Settle, who called him the worst conductor the choir had ever had.

Will continue on with CBS cancellation and aftermath another day. Ruthgrace (talk) 03:40, 10 July 2022 (UTC)

CBS cancellation and aftermath

• For this sentence

The choir remained a popular concert draw in 1948 despite its radio-show cancellation, performing in 45 of the 48 states and raising over $1 million (equivalent to $11,278,393 in 2021) for a number of charities.[44]

I wonder if it should say equivalent to over $11 million in 2021 so that it's less precise, to match the imprecision of over $1 million. The citation doesn't have a more exact number than over 1 million.

• I think these sentence are out of place in this article as they're not really about the choir

WGAR was moving on: earlier in 1947, the station introduced a Sunday-night program with the local Dixieteers quartet.[277][278] WGAR broadcast a 1948 limited-run program with the Kingdom Choir, composed of former Wings members and conducted by King, after the cancellation.[279] Another program, The Karaleers of Karamu House, premiered on the station on January 1, 1950, to a positive reception.[280]

Rest of the section looks good, and I checked all the references, too. 192.174.2.250 (talk) 19:39, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

New business model

alright, i've got a couple hours today, and i'm going to finish this dang review. sorry for the delay. I read this section and checked what references I could, and it all looked good to me.

Satellite choirs and reorganizations=

• what were the production related difficulties
• This is a single sentence paragraph. I think you could join it with the previous paragraph (or the next one if you prefer)

Both choirs continued touring nationwide over the next few years, singing for audiences of various sizes; promotional stories typically read, "The sponsors have expressed confidence that, with this group's fame going ahead of them, the ... auditorium will be filled to capacity".[314]

• I think what's written here is a little different from the source (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/91059548/missing-negro-singers-push-on-with/)

This followed a concert in Americus two nights earlier, when local police pulled them over for allegedly leading civil-rights demonstrations

The source says "The Rev Settles said that the leader of the group, Clarence Brooks, reported Friday night from Americus, Ga., that the police frequently stopped their automobil eand asked, "What's your business here?" The manager speculated that the police suspected them of coming for civil rights demonstrations." So maybe a more accurate sentence would be like this

This followed a call between Reverend Settle and Clarence Brooks two days earlier, where Brooks said that they were often stopped by police and speculated that the police suspected them of travelling to attend civil rights demonstrations

Settle's death and choir decline

• The source (https://www.newspapers.com/clip/91046825/famed-choir-returns-april-23/) is only about the concert and doesn't mention that it's the last concert Everett directed in the states

although his last concert in the United States was in Hartford, Connecticut, on April 23, 1972.

I recommend deleting this part of the sentence.

• I added a citation needed tag here as the linked source (https://www.hymnologyarchive.com/wings-over-jordan-bio) doesn't include this information

Settle's widow Mildred reportedly destroyed documents belonging to him in 1970

• This is in a different time period than the section title, and isn't super relevant to the choir; i recommend deleting

Firmbanks maintained her role as Gethsemane's minister of music until her husband's death in 1950. An "Appreciation Tea" was held for her by Gethsemane's Senior Choir on February 3, 1952, with many parishioners, choir members and civic leaders in attendance; Settle, Worth Kramer and Member of Congress Frances P. Bolton sent cards and telegrams in recognition of Firmbanks' contributions.[328]

(saving and continuing on)

Legacy

Historical appraisals

• the appropriate term here is probably "white people" and "black people" rather than "whites" and "Blacks". Also, you have one capitalized and the other not.

Public support by prominent whites (including First Lady Eleanor Roosevelt, New York Mayor Fiorello La Guardia and Cleveland Press editor-in-chief Louis B. Seltzer),[335] coupled with the weekly radio program's popularity among Blacks,

• typo here

Elevated to the Supreme Court of the United States under President Harry S. Truman,[340] Brown is he best known for his participation in the unanimous Brown v. Board of Education ruling.[341]

should probably be

Elevated to the Supreme Court of the United States under President Harry S. Truman,[340] Burton is best known for his participation in the unanimous Brown v. Board of Education ruling.[341]

Nearly forgotten

• Some of the details here are more about the radio station than the choir

Although WGAR mentioned the success of Wings Over Jordan as part of a lengthy 1948 filing with the FCC for the station's license renewal,[l] the station underwent a number of changes in the following years.[100] After the death of station founder George A. Richards in 1951,[346] WGAR was sold to the antecedent of Nationwide Communications in 1953;[347] ended its CBS affiliation in 1962;[348] moved its studios to Broadview Heights in 1971,[121] and began simulcasting WGAR-FM in 1986.[349] Nationwide sold WGAR in 1990, retaining WGAR-FM[350] and moving its studios to Independence.[351][m] WGAR-FM inherited the AM station's legacy and heritage, but a 1995 Akron Beacon Journal profile of the country music station "perhaps always associated with greatness" did not mention Wings Over Jordan.[352]

I recommend editing down to just the details about the choir, maybe something like this

Although WGAR mentioned the success of Wings Over Jordan as part of a lengthy 1948 filing with the FCC for the station's license renewal,[l] the station underwent a number of ownership and affiliation changes in the following years.[100][347][348][349][350]. By 1995, an Akron Beacon Journal profile of the country music station "perhaps always associated with greatness" did not mention Wings Over Jordan.[352]

• Similarly, I would summarize these non-choir-related details about Worth Kramer

Worth Kramer re-entered radio broadcasting after the war, becoming program director of WJR (WGAR's sister station in Detroit) in 1946.[357] Kramer remained there until 1963, making WJR a public-service leader and helping to sign on WJRT-TV in Flint.[4] He eventually entered station ownership again with Sarasota, Florida's WSPB,[358] WMRN and WMRN-FM in Marion.[359]

for example like this

Worth Kramer re-entered the radio broadcasting industry as a program director and later a station owner.[357][358][359]

"That which is worthy must be preserved"

• can't find the last part of this sentence in the cited source

The tribute chorus had its first public performance on June 11, 1988, commemorating the 50th anniversary of the national CBS debut of Wings Over Jordan,[365] and was so well-received that additional singers were recruited.

the source says this:

Brackens, 33, is a music teacher who decided in 1988 to form the Wings Over Jordan Celebration Choir, marking the 50th anniversary of the original ensemble. He is also the minister of music at Gethsemane and Bethany Baptist churches. He uses singers from both choirs and the community to round out the Celebration Choir, which features Ford.

"When we first formed the Celebration Choir we didn't know if we would continue," Ford said. "But we were so well-received that it reminded us of the original Wings Over Jordan days.

I suggest deleting this part

and was so well-received that additional singers were recruited.

that's it! that's the review!! Overall this is a fantastic, well-researched, super fascinating article that brings to light an important piece of history. I think there just needs to be a little rearranging with details about topics outside of the choir moved to their own article. I recommend nominating for good article again once that's done. Thank you so much -- I really appreciated getting to read this! Ruthgrace (talk) 00:48, 25 July 2022 (UTC)