Talk:Toghrul

Very short... there is much more information on him

It seems that there's very little info on this page... someone should read The Secret History of the Mongols and put some of the info from there in here. I'm no expert on Mongolian history so I don't know enough context to summarize it, but there's a lot of stuff in it, and it's a very good primary source. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.72.132.158 (talk) 18:42, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Borte's tribe

Toghrul could not be Borte's father. In fact, Borte was from the Konkirat tribes. There must have been some confusion between "Kereit" and "Konkirat".

Proposal to move Wang Khan to Ong Khan

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved NW (Talk) 17:27, 24 March 2011 (UTC)

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Wang Khan → Ong Khan — The contemporary name that is more common in scholarly work. --Nanshu (talk) 09:32, 7 March 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Highly dubious assertion! This needs to be studied more, if not moved back with the same standard of evidence by which it was moved (none): Google Books gives me 4,800 results for "Wang Khan" and 4,260 for "Ong Khan". Shrigley (talk) 10:44, 27 December 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 1 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: no consensus to move (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 20:08, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

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Toghrul → Wang Khan – Per this Ngram, Wang Khan appears to be the common name. All of the quotations taken from primary sources and used in this article also refer to him as Wang, not Toghrul. Since the previous discussion did not have many participants, I decided to bring it up again to get a better consensus for the article's name. Keivan.f^Talk 21:42, 1 January 2021 (UTC) —Relisting. —Nnadigoodluck███ 06:41, 9 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose without further evidence. The ngram does not show what you claim. Also, you have to account for spelling variants, such as Ung Khan and Toghril (and more). I see lots of results in contemporary academic English sources for variants of Toghrul and Ong Khan. The biggest problem with the current title is that it is just a variant of Tughril, so there is some reason to move. Srnec (talk) 20:39, 2 January 2021 (UTC)

• @Srnec: The Ngram definitely shows that Wang Khan is more common than Toghrul. This one with Toghril Khan as a variant gives the same results. So does this one with Tughril Khan. You made a good point though. Ong could also be a common name, whereas Ung doesn't appear to be used in many books. The only two choices are Wang and Ong, and moving the page could help with avoiding confusion due to another page being named Tughril, as you mentioned above. Sources from 1800s heavily favor Wang Khan, and as I said before the quotes used in this article refer to him as Wang as far as I remember. Keivan.f^Talk 00:44, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

Why are you comparing to Toghrul Khan, which isn't the title of this page? Wang/Ong/Ung Khan is a title, while Toghrul/Toghril/(etc.) is a name. Disambiguating his name by his title—e.g., "Toghrul (Wang Khan)"—might be a good compromise. Srnec (talk) 03:08, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

@Srnec: I felt the need to narrow it down, because there are other individuals named Toghrul. I'm not sure about Wang/Ong/Ung. Perhaps a user familiar with the language might enlighten us and say whether these are names or mere titles. But "Toghrul (Wang Khan)" would not be a bad main title. Also, if the person was known by his title rather than his name, so be it. We have to go with what's common after all. From what I can see at Toghrul#Wang Khan's character in primary sources, he is primarily referred to as Wang Khan in all of the quoted sources. Keivan.f^Talk 09:05, 3 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Was Toghrul a blood-brother of Tamujin?

Jack Weatherford states that Jamukha was the only blood-brother Tamujin had in his life. (see : Genghis Khan and the Making of the Modern World, page 22. אוהד בר-און (talk) 16:01, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Tooril Khan was the blood-brother to Yesügei, Temüjin's father. In 'The Secret History of the Mongols' it is attested that Temüjin says: He who has agreed to swear brotherhood with my father is as a father to me,’ So Tooril Khan was more of a blood-father to Temüjin. Kardoen (talk) 01:20, 25 October 2022 (UTC)