Talk:Walid Daqqa

Source needed for the sentence about why he was imprisoned

There must be stories about it Snowroads (talk) 02:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Amnesty International reported this: "On 25 March 1986, Israeli forces arrested Walid Daqqah, then 24, a Palestinian citizen of Israel. In March 1987, an Israeli military court sentenced him to life imprisonment after convicting him of commanding the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PFLP)-affiliated group that had abducted and killed Israeli soldier Moshe Tamam in 1984. Daqqah was not convicted of carrying out the murder himself, but of commanding the group, an accusation he always rejected, and his conviction was based on British emergency regulations dating back to 1945, which require a much lower standard of proof for conviction than Israeli criminal law." : https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2024/04/israel-opt-death-in-custody-of-walid-daqqah-is-cruel-reminder-of-israels-disregard-for-palestinians-right-to-life/ Soaplepot (talk) 02:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I added a source form a mainstream a newspaper, more reliable than AMnesty. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kentucky Rain24 (talk • contribs) 02:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Amnesty is reliable, but the mainstream source is less likely to be attacked by ideologues. 2600:8802:5913:1700:88AD:4ABE:AC49:BEB8 (talk) 12:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Not sure who added this https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/behind-amnestys-walid-daqqah-advocacy-i-found-stomach-churning-misinformation/ It is a blog, does it qualify as a reliable source? --Lewisiscrazy (talk) 12:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Gouging eyes and mutilating body

Source for this information? Notably the ToI article from 2021 do not mention these details: [1]. Makeandtoss (talk) 14:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

One source is here on Israel National News [2], mentioning torture and mutilation.

Another source, that honors soldiers killed in action [3], mentions "signs of sabotage in his head."

UClaudius (talk) 14:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Better sources needed; especially considering this was not mentioned in the 2021 TOI article. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:01, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@UClaudius: Please self-revert the factually incorrect accusation which you just inserted at the very beginning of the article despite concerns regarding verifiability. He was never accused of such a thing; his criminal charge was regarding his alleged commanding of the responsible group that killed a soldier. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Lewisiscrazy: The ToI blog doesn't qualify as a reliable source, neither it seems these two sources mentioned above from Israel National News and another random website. Interestingly, and as I previously mentioned the torture detail is not mentioned in a TOI article dating to 2021. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:35, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

why is the ToI blog not a reliable source? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Because it is a blog; please read WP:RS. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I read it, It seems that newspaper blogs are excluded: " Sites with user-generated content include personal websites, personal and group blogs (excluding newspaper and magazine blogs)" Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 16:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The fact that this information is only present in a blog and a number of mediocre sources casts doubt on their verifiability, and again since they are lacking on RS reporting on the matter, notably the 2021 TOI article. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:22, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I translated this page to fr:Walid_Daqqa earlier today, but I removed the pseudo information about torture and mutilation, none of which is mentioned in any of the main French newspapers : Le Figaro/Agence_France-Presse here and Le Monde here and here --Lewisiscrazy (talk) 21:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It's not really that relevant one way or another, because he wasn't there and didn't participate, and we've only got the word of a military court operating on the basis of 1945 colonial laws that he was even linked to the event. The charges could plausibly be made up. Iskandar323 (talk) 21:55, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Unless the French sources are somehow superior to all others, the fact that they don;t mention it is not a reason to remove information that appears in other sources. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:58, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It's a biography, so the relevant details are those that directly relate to the subject, not simply details that appear in the backstory of a news story featuring the subject. This isn't a news summary, but an encyclopedia entry. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:12, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It's at least as relevant as the fact that his children's story features a "12 year old boy"- that appears in the lead mind you!

If he commanded a group to kidnap and murder someone, that is very much related to him. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:17, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

If indeed. What do the Israelis claim be actually did? Have they released the transcripts of the court case? What, other than an archaic military tribunal, confirms that he had any sort of command role over the group responsible? Iskandar323 (talk) 22:23, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

I think wikipedia articles are written according to what's in sources, not by what you speculate what might have happened.

An Israeli military court convicted him of these offences, and that's what the article needs to reflect. If there are sources that say that transcripts were not released, we can include them Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:27, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Yep, the court convicted him of ya da ya da – don't need details beyond that. But if someone wants to go and write up a page on the kidnapping and murder that Daqqa didn't actually participate in, they are free to go and do that. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

we need the same details as sources describing this event. If they saw fit to mention kidnapping, torture in addition to the murder, this article needs to reflcet that Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Again, this is a biography, not a news write up – excessive background on events not attended by the subject are very much not relevant. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:37, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

It is not excessive background - that's practically the only thing that makes him notable for an encyclopedia.

You want to know what is excessive background? A 350-word section that details every minor character in a minor children's book he wrote Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 23:49, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kentucky Rain24, Wikipedia:NEWSBLOG recommends to use newspaper blogs "with caution because blogs may not be subject to the news organization's normal fact-checking process. Please do note that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources." Lewisiscrazy (talk) 06:30, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I saw that. But that is not an exceptional claim - it has been reported in other sources, including some that I have listed here, like the JC Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:03, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

and by the way , where did that second sentence - "Please do note that any exceptional claim would require exceptional sources." come from? it's not in the Wikipedia:NEWSBLOG section that you linked to. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Kentucky Rain24, by the way, it actually is: Wikipedia:Verifiability#cite note-EXCEPTIONAL-8 Lewisiscrazy (talk) 20:12, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, I didn't see that footnote. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:22, 11 April 2024 (UTC)

One nore - https://www.thejc.com/news/world/amnesty-describes-death-of-terrorist-who-ordered-teens-murder-as-heart-wrenching-g7xhem7u. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Kentucky Rain24 (talk • contribs) 16:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

@Nishdani: Most RS reporting on his death have said that this group kidnapped and killed an Israeli soldier, not tortured and mutilated, a claim which currently lacks sufficient sourcing in the article. Further, the age of the soldier doesn't really matter in the opening paragraph. Makeandtoss (talk) 15:59, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

For the moment all I've done is remove the Arutz Sheva sourcing, which is simply not acceptable for an article like this, certainly it has no repute for factual statements.Nishidani (talk) 16:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

On the evidence in acceptable sources so far at least, it appears Tamam was savagely beaten in the face and head before he was murdered. That is in my book 'torture' but the word 'torture' has other connotations. It is usually applied to a deliberate attempt to apply extreme violence on a person in order to extract information, and so far we have no RS that suypply us with anything like those details. It is quite obscure. Why a young IDF boy, why the kidnapping rather than immediate shooting, unless there was so point to this violence? I've retained mutilated, though it is not quite an appropriate term here because in English it suggests genital mutilation, or disfigurement with knives etc. Until we know such nauseating details, the language must be astringent.Nishidani (talk) 20:31, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Torture is often used (by sadists) without a goal of information extraction (https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/knesset-member-and-the-terrorist) . Several sources (e.g https://www.tabletmag.com/sections/israel-middle-east/articles/knesset-member-and-the-terrorist) explain why the kidnapping rathe rtham immediate shooting - the plan was to take him across the border and use him as a hostage to release prisoners.

Sources suggest there was indeed castration in this case Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 21:53, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Daqqa wasn't present for the kidnapping, so it's irrelevant side detail. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:02, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

That is hardly relevant. People are convicted of crimes they planned, ordered or financed all the time, whether or not they were present at the crime scene Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:04, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

He wasn't convicted of any of those things – just the vague charge of 'commanding the group' ... whatever 'command' might mean in a minor resistance outfit with likely little to no command and control function. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:09, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

He was convicted of commanding a group that kidnapped, tortured and murdered someone, and you are not going to whitewash that away just because you don;t like it, when many sources provide those details in conjunction with a story about his recent death or imprisonment Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Convicted in a military tribunal scenario two years later, the details of which have not actually been released. If you live in any sort of modern society, you may be aware that conviction in this context is not actually quite the same thing as convinction in a normal context, and carries practically zero claim to the ideal that is truthfulness. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:26, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

There are countless cases when a conviction is obtained several years after the fact. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:30, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Not the key takeaway. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:32, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

What is the key takeawy? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:34, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

See Israeli military court. Iskandar323 (talk) 22:39, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

So the military court is the takeaway? Military courts are used the world over. Mass murderer Nidal Hasan was tried and convicted by a military court - you think there's some problem with that? Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 23:52, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Because he was serving in the military. That was a military tribunal in the sense of an internal disciplinary measure, as opposed to a draconian colonial-era military court used to subjugate an occupied population without the usual legal checks and balances. Iskandar323 (talk) 06:23, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Hassan was not subject to "disciplinary measures" - he was on trial for murder as a criminal offense, and convicted of the same. The Lod Military Court (now disbanded) was not a Colonial era court, it was established by Israel in Israel after its establishment, in the late 1960s. It was neither "draconian", nor did it have jurisdiction over the occupied territories, where, as required by the Geneva Conventions, military courts located in the occupied territories are used.

I don't think you have a good grasp of which court we are talking about,

Regardless, Daqqa's various appeals were adjudicated in the Israeli civil court system . Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 13:21, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Which 2021 TOI article are you referring to?

UClaudius (talk) 16:06, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

The one I linked: https://www.timesofisrael.com/released-arab-israeli-who-killed-idf-soldier-gets-heros-welcome-in-home-town/ Makeandtoss (talk) 16:13, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Second lede paragraph

Second lede paragraph should contain information on his imprisonment, extended sentence, denial of medical aid, context of status of Palestinian prisoners, cancer diagnosis, and death. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:16, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

ARBPIA

NB: This is a page that falls within the WP:ARBPIA contentious topic area, so a note to all that WP:ARBECR applies. Iskandar323 (talk) 23:24, 9 April 2024 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by PrimalMustelid talk 14:26, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

(

• Comment or view
• Article history

)

• ... that prisoner Walid Daqqa wrote several works of prison literature, including a children's novel on a boy who uses magical olive oil to visit his imprisoned father? Source: https://www.al-monitor.com/originals/2018/09/palestines-prison-literature.html
  • Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Li Zhaoxing + Template:Did you know nominations/My Beautiful Man

Created by Gianluigi02 (talk) and Makeandtoss (talk).

Number of QPQs required: 2. DYK is currently in unreviewed backlog mode and nominator has 40 past nominations.

Post-promotion hook changes will be logged on the talk page; consider watching the nomination until the hook appears on the Main Page.

Makeandtoss (talk) 16:05, 10 April 2024 (UTC).

• Article new and long enough. Image is licensed under CC-BY-SA from a YouTube video. Sourcing is adequate, and it's neutral enough in tone. Earwig flagged a line but it's a direct quote anyway. QPQs done, good to go. Juxlos (talk) 04:43, 11 April 2024 (UTC)
• Drive-by comment, I think: The image is currently being challenged at Commons because it did not actually came from the YouTube source so I think the image is not usable. I should also note that Middle East Monitor is being challenged at WP:RSN again and that's worth a look at. Spinixster (trout me!) 01:33, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

No unique information in the article is sourced to MEM. Makeandtoss (talk) 09:48, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

The information sourced from reference 10 (which is Middle East Monitor) can easily be replaced with this, for example. Spinixster (trout me!) 12:29, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I have added the Reuters source so no unique information is sourced to that one. Makeandtoss (talk) 13:14, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Whitewashing

According to Walid Daqqa himself, he knew about the intention to kill the soldier. Bakbik1234 (talk) 16:26, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Please find a secondary reliable and independent source and not a primary source for this piece of information. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:28, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Okay, thank you. Bakbik1234 (talk) 16:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Or maybe not violate your topic ban again .@Makeandtoss I despair, they keep doing this. Doug Weller talk 17:53, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

@Doug Weller: Good advice which would have worked for ten years straight. Makeandtoss (talk) 17:56, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Some of the details in the Tablet mag article sound worth pursuing. For me, the trouble is, from past experience, I wouldn't touch anything written in that mag by, esp.Liel Leibovitz. Confessions, well, Israel has one of the best records in the world for extracting 'confessions' from Palestinians, and a 99% conviction rate (even of the innocent who 'confess' in plea bargains to avoid worse, amply documented). The evidence given is contradictory: in some accounts he confessed, in some he is said to have had foreknowledge, or participated in the kidnapping, etc.etc. One just doesn't know, and one would need strong and independent coverage from the time to get more than an inkling.Nishidani (talk) 18:16, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

This does not appear to be a primary source- it is a newspaper article. Secondary and independent. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 20:48, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I suggest you familiarize yourself with the context, (1987 conviction, 1988 the following paper on the use of violence to extract information from suspects of terrorism). I.e.

Raija-Leena Punamaki, Experiences of Torture, Means of Coping, and Level of Symptoms among Palestinian Political Prisoners Journal of Palestine Studies 17:4 Summer 1988 pp.81-96.

That does not mean Daqqa was wrongly convicted. It means that particular care must be taken to avoid adopting a gungho essayist (like Leibovitz)'s spin on what happened (not the idyllic setting before the irruption of terrorists) as a source for events. One needs a source that is throroughly familiar with the trial and its politics, which we haven't as yet.Nishidani (talk) 22:04, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

what does any of this have to do with what I wrote? I am not discussing Leibovitz - I am commenting on the claim that an article from a mainstream Israeli newspaper is a primary source. It is not. Kentucky Rain24 (talk) 22:07, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Unreliable source?

Under the account User:Makeandtoss the Israelis reaction to the "Erika Guevara Rosas" statement was removed [4], claiming "both unreliable sources; please do not re-add before seeking talk page consensus" - so the official Israeli twitter account as reference for an official Israeli twitterpost the is not a reliable source. Comments on this statement in international press like Focus (German magazine) aren´t either? Nice work "Makeandtoss". Maybe Reuters will do ? * Alexpl (talk) 16:31, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Yes, Reuters will do, added now. Makeandtoss (talk) 16:34, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Removal of Mondoweiss per BL(and recently deceased)P

As Mondoweiss should generally not be used for BLP (per this), also applicable to recently deceased people), I have changed the quote and content to an alternative source. Is that ok for everyone? FortunateSons (talk) 19:32, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

You do realize this is not a biography of a living person right? Makeandtoss (talk) 19:38, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Per the first section of BLP: Contentious material about living persons (or, in some cases, recently deceased) that is unsourced or poorly sourced.

As Reuters and AJ are clearly better than Mondoweiss and an informal translation on this topic is potentially problematic, I would consider my change preferable. Do you disagree? FortunateSons (talk) 19:40, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

I don't; I had expected you had more substantial changes in mind. Makeandtoss (talk) 19:41, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Nope, just something minor, sorry for being unclear. I’m glad you agree :) FortunateSons (talk) 19:43, 10 April 2024 (UTC)