Talk:W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)

Requested Move 2010: Move article

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved. Local consensus is not entirely unambiguous, but WP:MOSJ is clear about replacing Japanese punctuation with English punctuation for cases like this. kotra (talk) 19:11, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

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W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~ → WBX (W-Boiled Extreme) — As per Wikipedia:MJ#Titles of books and other media on two counts (the nakaguro-style hyphens, and the nami dash being stylised in song titles as brackets). --Prosperosity (talk) 00:10, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Support per nomination. I agree with Ryūlóng, that it should be W-B-X and not WBX. 夢追人^YumeChaser 01:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose:
  1. "WBX" is not the proper name of the song. Even if I would agree to moving this page, it'd be to "W-B-X" in the first bit. I have no idea what "nakaguro-style hyphens" are. The "W-B-X" part is essentially an abbreviation of the second part of the song title, for which they use dashes instead of periods. I saw at Talk:Move (Japanese band)#Requested move that the name "M.o.v.e" would be fine if that band was called "Em Oh Vee Ee". Well this song is called "Double-Bee-Ex" and not "Wibbix", so "W-B-X" should be fine per whatever manuals of style there are.
  2. I have repeatedly argued that this page is at a good title because aside from the tildes. You are not moving this page from the title that it clearly states on the album art and on all print media on this release: [1], [2], [3], [4].
  3. And I made a thread on WT:MOS-JA months ago that no one ever bothered to respond to about this. The title of this page is not changing, because my arguments for the page at this current title seemed to be fine last time.

  So a definite no to "WBX (W-Boiled Extreme)". I may concede if it was "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)", but an administrator will need to deal with that. The name of this song is parsed entirely in English. If the dashes and tildes are such an issue, I will have to argue that the MOS be modified so they can be accepted. It is entirely bullshit to rename things to the way we want instead of using the original names.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:01, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

As per the style guide, "Within the English-language Wikipedia...dashes, nakaguro (dots) and the like should be cut." Nakaguro are the interpuncts found between katakana words and occasionally in acronyms (like..."W·B·X" or something). The hyphens are a substitute for this style of punctuation, serving the same purpose.

That something is styled in a certain way in media releases, doesn't mean that it's a good title for an article. There are reasons why manuals of style/naming conventions exist. Like you say, if this is a problem, then it should be brought up at the manual of style for the manual to be modified, because the current manual clearly says that WBX (W-Boiled Extreme) is preferred (at the very least, so all pages are consistent in their treatment of this).

That the song is written with all English characters (well, a nami dash is English-ish) shouldn't be an issue, since this is a title written by Japanese speakers in a Japanese context. Title ～subtitle～ is used to the same effect as タイトル～サブタイトル～ (see the Best: First Things example at the MOS). --Prosperosity (talk) 01:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

So if say Lady Gaga or Amy Winehouse or Kylie Minogue released a song with tildes in the title, the article would have to be located at the version with tildes in it because they're all English language musicians. Why should the fact that Aya Kamiki is a Japanese speaker dictate where we put an article here if she decides to write a song whose title is entirely English?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:41, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm saying that that construction for a title of a song would never occur to those musicians, since its a Japanese notion for titling and should be considered from the context it was created in. Even so, I doubt if any of those artists had a prominent song with nami dashes in its title that Wikipedia manuals of style would allow for the page to exist at Title ~Title~ or Title~Title, or wherever. --Prosperosity (talk) 01:45, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

How can you be sure? It just does not make sense that we change the orthography or whatever you want to call it.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:00, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

Because they've already been dealt with by manuals of styles, which you can see in examples already such as the P!nk article is at Pink (singer) and the Ke$ha article at Kesha. --02:15, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

That is because "P!nk" is pronounced as "Pink" and "Ke$ha" is pronounced as "Kesha". It does not say anything as to what would happen if they wrote a song with bthe ~ in it.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:21, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm not sure if your argument stands, because the main reason for such changes isn't to do with the pronunciation. For example, ounced non-standard spellings don't get changed, and they're pronounced the same (i.e., "Buy U a Drank (Shawty Snappin')" is not changed to "Buy You a Drink (Shawty Snapping)" or something. --Prosperosity (talk) 02:34, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

But if that artist called the song "Buy U a Drank ~ Shawty Snappin'" the article would likely be at that page on the English Wikipedia. For example, the Boom Boom Satellites have a single/EP called "On The Painted Desert - Rampant Colors" and it is sung in English, and was released in Belgium (as well as Japan).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 02:42, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

I think this argument is getting pretty circular, because there's no way to prove either way what would have happened in such a situation, purely because it hasn't happened before (and you're apparently not taking non-tilde symbols as evidence). Plus the Boom Boom Satellites release isn't the best example, because the band already comes from an environment with Japanese typefaces/titling systems in mind. --Prosperosity (talk) 03:16, 1 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support. Per nom and as per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style_(trademarks)#General_rules "Avoid using special characters that are not pronounced, are included purely for decoration...". The tildes serve no grammatical purpose and are simply a result of the styling of the name. Removing them doesn't alter what the name is, only how the name is styled, and as we avoid drawing undue attention to non-standard styles of formatting, brackets should be used. Nouse4aname (talk) 14:47, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Further, as per the arguments above, the tildes would be removed from English language based articles also, as they are not "proper" punctuation and serve no purpose other than decorative. Nouse4aname (talk) 14:51, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

• The tildes serve as punctuation in the Japanese language, and are not merely decorative.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:33, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

But this is the English language Wikipedia. The tildes serve no purpose here other than decorative. Nouse4aname (talk) 08:22, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose per Ryūlóng. We should relist this. Wikkitywack (talk) 04:39, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Why? Because you aren't happy that people disagree with you? Nouse4aname (talk) 08:22, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Fair question. No - because I think there are a lot of issues here that we haven't fully addressed and I would appreciate some time to better articulate them. Cheers, Wikkitywack (talk) 10:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Well as far as I can see the consensus would be to move the page to the proposed title. This action is supported by naming policy and formatting guidelines. The number of people arguing for and against doesn't matter. As for time to debate, I think 8 days is plenty... Nouse4aname (talk) 15:15, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

WP:IAR seems to deem that if enough people dissent against a prevailing idea put forward by a guideline or policy, said guideline or policy can be ignored for the good of the project. In this case, it's WP:MOSTM and WP:MOS-JA, the latter of which is in the process of being amended so the tilde can be accepted as a standard punctuation mark when dealing with songs of Japanese extraction.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:44, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

IAR can not just be applied whenever and wherever an editor desires. You need to provide strong logical reasoning for ignoring established policy and guidline. I don't see that here... Nouse4aname (talk) 08:11, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I have been.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:34, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

I don't see any reason there to consider the tildes as anything other than decorative in the English language wikipedia. The policies exist to maintain the highest level of clarity and readability for English-language users, not to preserve decorative text or stylistic preferences. There is no reason for brackets not to be used as per the naming guidelines. The hyphens should also be removed as per Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style#Acronyms_and_abbreviations, which states that the periods should be removed from acronyms. As the hyphens are simply a substitute for these punctuation marks, they serve no purpose other than decorative. Nouse4aname (talk) 14:35, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

• Support, policy is clear and no case is made above for changing the policy or for this being an exception. Even better, move to WBX Double Boiled Extreme as the article title, I see no reason for the parentheses or for not spelling out the second W as pronounced, see the article. And we will need lots of redirects to this one! Andrewa (talk) 21:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

Um...that's a bit... extreme. Removing all punctuation isn't the way to go. jgpTC 22:00, 10 September 2010 (UTC)

The name of this song is printed plainly and clearly on the album art as "W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~". Why should we have to change that?—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:02, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

For the various reasons already detailed above regarding the use of non-standard stylistic formatting. Nouse4aname (talk) 10:28, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

It is not a stylization. It is standard Japanese punctuation used in a name that is entirely parsed in English.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:46, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

My apologies, I didn't realise this was the Japanese Wikipedia. Oh, wait, it isn't... then still, the tildes are meaningless in English and should be substituted for brackets. This is boring now, I don't see how explaining the same thing over and over is going to make you understand. Nouse4aname (talk) 08:09, 14 September 2010 (UTC)

• Oppose as proposed. I'm conflicted about this. On one hand, I don't like tildes. On the other hand, parentheses seem even more wrong than tildes, as it's such a radical departure from the title. jgpTC 22:07, 10 September 2010 (UTC)
• Support with or without the hyphens. The tildes are just denoting a subtitle, apparently, and in English we do that with parentheses.--Kotniski (talk) 12:52, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

What consensus?

I have moved the page back to the original title because there was certainly no consensus for the suggested title. "WBX" was stated to be wrong, and there is no consensus here. Saying "Oh, let's move it because the MOS says so" does not help with the case that times to ignore the rules should be taken on a case by case basis. In this case, the consensus doesn't exist to move this page, and certainly the decision should not have been made based on the manual of style that is currently being argued against application here.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:42, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

As I interpreted the discussion, the sole reason given for "WBX" being less desirable was that "W-B-X" is necessary to prevent its mispronunciation. However, this reason is false on two points: firstly, "WBX" is not normally read as "wibbix" in English as you appear to have claimed; most English acronyms, even when not punctuated by periods (or dashes), are pronounced letter-by-letter, especially if they are difficult to pronounce as a single word, as WBX is. Consider FBI, CIA, MSN, AOL, etc. Secondly, neither version, "WBX" or "W-B-X" helps the reader understand the actual correct pronunciation, "Double Bee Ecks"; both versions would normally be read as "Double-you Bee Ecks". So this reasoning in favor of "W-B-X" has little merit. However, the reasons in favor of "WBX" (unnecessary, used as decoration or as non-English punctuation, nonstandard, inconsistent with the rest of Wikipedia, etc) remain valid. Part of a closing admin's responsibility is to look at strength of arguments, not just count numbers; I interpreted the arguments for "WBX" as carrying much greater weight than the arguments for "W-B-X", but I certainly did not act unilaterally as others above expressed similar sentiments.

Concerning WP:IAR, we ignore rules only when there is a compelling reason or consensus to do so. I do not believe that was the case here. It would certainly have been a good idea to delay the closure further if the discussion you started was anywhere near a resolution to amend WP:MOSJ. But it does not appear to be near that point yet, and indeed it looks like there is significant disagreement there to the proposal. If I am proven wrong and a consensus develops for changing it, I will voluntarily change it back myself to the original title. But as consensus is now (not forgetting the consensus represented by a guideline remaining unchanged on the matter for over 2 years), I believe my assessment and move was valid. I'll ask other admins active in WP:RM for their input. -kotra (talk) 22:58, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

For one thing, as you point out, it isn't an acronym anyway due to the fact that the W in this case is not "Double-U" but "Double". And the majority of the people supporting this move merely had opposed the use of tildes, which I had brought under discussion earlier this year, and have recently been working to formally amend the manual of style to allow for them (and dashes and whatever other punctuation marks have been thrown out because they are taken as a trademark aspect or a stylization aspect). I would, for the time being, concede and say the page could be moved to W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme), but once the RFC/whatever completes and the manual of style is changed, I should expect that it should be fairly easy to move this and other pages to titles to those that include the tilde (or dash or dot or whatever it is), as there's really nothing decorative about two hyphens amongst three letters.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:05, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say that it isn't an acronym, only that it was pronounced unconventionally. Judging from ja:'s article, it looks like WBX is an acronym of sorts, standing for "double boiled extreme". The fact that "W" stands for "double", not a word that begins with "W", doesn't mean we should treat it differently than other acronyms; the principle is still the same and there is still no functional advantage in including dashes, as both versions are pronounced the same. However, if other editors feel this view isn't held by consensus, I'll gladly drop it and amend my closing summary to the version you propose. -kotra (talk) 23:46, 24 September 2010 (UTC)

But there is no consensus to move. Even if you're not going by numbers, why should the arguments of those that oppose be automatically not counted because a manual of style currently opposes it? And even then, the name of the song is printed very clearly as "W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~"; why should any of the manuals of style have an issue with this? The tilde thing is being discussed, and I do not see why "W-B-X" is bad, when we have pages on B.o.B and N.E.R.D.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:13, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

It's my view that there was consensus to move, once the consensus represented by the guideline's longevity and specificity was combined with the local consensus of this discussion. Local consensus taken by itself can be misleading, as you probably are already aware. I never ignored the arguments of those that oppose, and I'm surprised you would claim that when I specifically addressed some of those arguments above. I evaluated all the arguments before concluding that in the broader view, rough consensus was for this move. I understand you disagree, and if your history with this article is any indication, anything can say will not likely change your mind. That is why third opinions are needed. And yes, I understand you have started discussions on amending the MOS. Like I said earlier, I don't think those discussions are anywhere near concluded or even moving positively towards actual amendment, so it would have been needlessly bureaucratic to delay the closure on their account. Finally, B.o.B and N.E.R.D are American band names, not Japanese song titles. They are treated differently because they are very different things. -kotra (talk) 21:02, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

Well, another administrator I contacted and asked for his opinion on this would not have moved the page because he did not see a particular consensus. And your response to my mentioning of "B.o.B" and "N.E.R.D" is exactly why I want to change the guideline. If this was a song performed by a Western artist, there would be no issue in the title of the article. Because it is Japanese it needs to be treated differently. Why? At least move this to "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)" because with those American musicians, such formatting is allowed. The fact that this is a Japanese song does not mean it should be treated any differently than any other song by any other musician. The only reason the "W-B-X" title wasn't requested in the move is because there is a redirect there from an earlier move that I undid. The name of this song is "W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~" and that's where the damn article should be located.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:31, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

You've made these arguments already, so just repeating them more assertively isn't likely to be helpful. Regarding American titles being treated differently than Japanese titles, others have explained to you why this is already, so I don't think you need me to repeat them. I don't want to be drawn into the discussion regarding your proposed changes to the guideline; there are enough voices there already. I'm interested in reading the views of others about this close, though. Can you direct me to the administrator's opinion you mentioned? I'm not seeing anything about it in your contributions history or your user talk page. -kotra (talk) 02:51, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

This was in an informal discussion off site. I will see if I can find him so he can state what he believes should have been done in this case.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:24, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Title Problems

I think the title page is written wrong because in Avex Rider Sound clearly states it's name as "W-B-X ～W-Boiled Extreme～". My request is to please move this article to 'W-B-X ～W-Boiled Extreme～'. Thank You.--KamenRiderOOO (talk) 15:55, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

There is a discussion going on elsewhere concerning this project's titling of articles that concerns this.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 18:56, 29 December 2010 (UTC)

Requested Move 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus (though getting there). Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 13:07, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

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WBX (W-Boiled Extreme) → W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme) — There is currently nothing in any of the policies or manuals of style that prohibit the hyphens in the "W-B-X" portion of the name. We should use the most verifiable name possible, and "WBX" is in no way the correct name. The current title blatantly violates WP:COMMONNAME as it is.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:29, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

• Oppose. This has been discussed to death before. Continuing to bring it up in the hope of changing the decision is pointless and disruptive. The hyphens are simply a styled form of the period/full stop. As per MOS, these are not used in acronymns/initialisms.
  • "Modern usage is to use a full stop after a shortening, but no full stops with an acronym, contraction or initialism"
  • "The letters of acronyms and initialisms are never spaced" Nouse4aname (talk) 10:34, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
    • What do you mean "discussed to death before"? There's only been one move request late last year. And the name of the song is very clearly printed in a way that can be typed on a standard QWERTY keyboard. There is no reason to have renamed it in the first place. I am merely suggesting that the name be moved to the more accurate title until the original title is allowable.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 10:44, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
      • There is an extensive discussion above regarding the article name. There is nothing "more accurate" about using hyphens. That is how the title is styled. Wikipedia uses its own in house formatting to maintain consistency across articles. This means that full stops/periods are not used in acronyms/initialisms. In this instance, the hyphens are simply a styled version of a period. They are not necessary in standard English, serve no purpose other than decorative and are thus omitted. This has nothing to do with WP:COMMONNAME, as that guidleine does not cover style issues. Nouse4aname (talk) 15:20, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
        • There was no consensus in the above discussion and the page was moved anyway because the closing admin thought that there was a consensus. Now I am opposing that non consensus by providing sound reasoning as to why the current name is inaccurate, unverified, and the "stylization" arguments are just plain bullshit. Why are "N.E.R.D" and "B.o.B" allowed as article titles? Is it merely because this song has origins in Japan that we have to forcibly normalize it? That's utter bullshit.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:14, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
          • It has nothing to do with ethnicity or country of origin; please don't try to make this into such an issue. We do occasionally use periods if the non-periodized acronym would be confusing or ambiguous, but I could certainly make an argument that those two article names are indeed contrary to our manual of style. At any rate, their state of compliance or non-compliance with Wikipedia's house style has no bearing on that of this article; each must be considered on its own merits. Powers ^T 20:51, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
            • But other aspects of this renaming most certainly do have to do with the fact that the song is Japanese in origin and is subject to the Japanese manual of style. And it's a clear double standard when it comes to subjects that are not English in origin. Kathryn Dawn Lang's page is at k.d. lang, but there was an issue with Microphone Controller Akio Togashi's page being at m.c.A·T.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:00, 4 January 2011 (UTC)
              • Yes, we allow alternative capitalizations for personal names as a gesture of respect to fellow human beings, but we draw the line at punctuation variations to keep things somewhat reasonable. It is not a national double standard. Powers ^T 00:20, 5 January 2011 (UTC)
                • I don't know. I've come across many situations where if something was released in the US or UK, the article title would not have been changed.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:52, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Just because you disagree with the outcome doesn't mean there wasn't a consensus. Remember it's not a vote count, but a case of weighing up the arguments. Those supported by policy/guideline are more important than those based purely on statement of opinion. Further, take a read of WP:OTHERSTUFF to see why N.E.R.D. and B.o.B have no relevance here. The Japanese origins of the song have no bearing on how the title is formatted. Anything that is styled in a non-standard way reverts to standard English formatting and punctuation when used on Wikipedia. This allows us to maintain consistency across all articles. Nouse4aname (talk) 09:10, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Four supports and 3 opposes is not a consensus for support, regardless of what the manuals of style state. If there's enough consensus to make this an exception to various manuals of style, that's what the outcome should be.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:26, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Again, it is not about counting votes. It is about weighing up the arguments. There is currently no compelling reason to ignore the various style guidelines in this instance. Nouse4aname (talk) 10:30, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Arguments were given but were ignored because the manual of style suggested that the title was not correct, despite there being a years worth of discussion on the governing manual of style to possibly change this.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 10:37, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Right, so after a year long discussion, the manual of style still has not been changed. Does this tell you anything... Nouse4aname (talk) 12:02, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

It got sidelined by the WP:VG/GL drama. Now it's under better discussion.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:57, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

The fact is that until that guideline is changed (which seems unlikely), there is no point attempting to change this page, as the current guideline supports the use of WBX over W-B-X. Further, any change at WP:MOSJ will have no affect on the article title, which is covered by this policy, and advocates the use of standard English formatting for article titles. Nouse4aname (talk) 09:00, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Exceptions can always be made.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, but not without sound logical reasoning and established consensus - neither of which exist here. Nouse4aname (talk) 09:15, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

You're the only person who has responded in the two days this discussion started. I've given reasoning here as to how an exception can be made. You're just blind to anything that's supposedly forbidden by the manuals of style. All I want is two damn hyphens in the title. Tildes are under discussion elsewhere and this page can be moved again once a consensus is formed on that. The title of this song is not "styled" with Hyphens in place of full stops. You have the "W-B" standing in for "W-Boiled" and the writers and musicians who worked on this felt "Hey, let's put a hyphen before the X for 'Extreme' too".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 09:27, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Actually, as stated above, User:LtPowers also disagrees with your reasoning. Further, you said yourself in the first move request for this page, and I quote, "The "W-B-X" part is essentially an abbreviation of the second part of the song title, for which they use dashes instead of periods.". As hyphens/dashes are not part of standard English punctuation when used in this way, and Wikipedia does not use periods/full stops in acronyms/initialisms, the hyphens are thus only a stylised version of a period. These punctuation marks are not used in initialisms on Wikipedia, and thus there is no reason to include the stylised version in this instance. I am not againts everything that is contrary to MOS, but to ignore the guidance at MOS, there must be valid, logical reasoning, which fails to exist here. The fact that you state "All I want is two damn hyphens in the title" doesn't suggest that you are considering established guidelines and policy, but simply want things changed to meet your opinion of how things should be. That is not how things work. Nouse4aname (talk) 09:40, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

Well why can't the name as it is written on the album cover, in every single press release, in every single episode of the TV series it is the theme of, in every single album it was included on, in every single news article, and in every other website in existence be utilized as the title of this page? Everyone in the world knows it by the other title because it was very clearly parsed in English. Why do we, as an encyclopedia, enforce our own style guide when the rest of the world doesn't? Verifiability and common usage should dictate article titles. Not an internal list of dos and don'ts. If "N.E.R.D" and "B.o.B" and "B.O.B. (song)" are suitable article titles, then this page should at least be titled "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)". I know that I will have to deal with the tildes at a later date, but the first part of the name of the song is not "WBX" in any language.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 10:42, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

As I have explained over and over and over and over and over and over again. Wikipedia does not use periods in acronyms/initialisms. The hyphens are a substitute/stylised version of the period in the initialism WBX. We do not use periods and we certainly do not use stylised versions of them because it is not correct English. Those examples are irrelevant, see WP:OTHERSTUFF. The fact that the name is styled in a particular way does not matter. Wikipedia styles titles, names, etc by using standard English usage. We do not lend undue weight to non-standard stylings. WP:COMMONNAME deals with differences in actual names (ie, the article for William Jefferson Clinton is at Bill Clinton, because even though that is not his "official" or full name, it is the most recognisable name) it does not deal with whether to maintain non-standard styling issues, which is dealt with elsewhere. Nouse4aname (talk) 12:07, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

These other things are clearly examples that exceptions can be made. I don't see why this page has to be any different than B.O.B. (song).—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:19, 6 January 2011 (UTC)

• As of the latest comment at WT:MOS#Hyphens in article titles, it appears that WP:ABBR does not apply to proper nouns such as song titles. So the "W-B-X" part is a suitable title.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 03:59, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
• And apparently WP:MOSTM does not apply either. So there is no reason the article should not be moved to "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)".—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 04:30, 7 January 2011 (UTC)
• Support – MOS:ABBR and MOS:TM do not apply to song titles. According to reliable sources, the name of this song has hyphens in it, so per WP:COMMONNAME so should the article title. McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:18, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. Even if WP:MOSTM did apply, it says "editors should choose among styles already in use (not invent new ones)". Are there any reliable sources referring to the song by the title without hyphens? If there aren't, neither should we. --A. di M. (talk) 20:11, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
• Comment. WP:COMMONNAME says "Articles are normally titled using the name which is most frequently used to refer to the subject of the article in English-language reliable sources." and "as used by a significant majority of reliable English language sources". Therefore WP:COMMONNAME can not be used if sources are not in English. Powergate92Talk 23:31, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Then WP:COMMONNAME is inherently flawed.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:31, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

    Well, without the "English language" part, that quotation from WP:COMMONNAME would require the articles about Florence and Prague to be at Firenze and Praha respectively, which is clearly not the intent. --A. di M. (talk) 01:08, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

    Then COMMONNAME should include something that says what to do when there are no English language reliable sources.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 01:15, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

    "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)" is English so any sources that mention it are partly in English so that counts, I would think. McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:17, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

    The name of the song is "W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~". Not "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)". WP:MOS-JA currently proscribes against using tildes as approximations for the wave dash/swung dash/full width tilde. Discussion has been going on to change this.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:38, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

    It already does (see second paragraph of WP:UE). --A. di M. (talk) 10:48, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

    Then this page should not be at the current title.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:38, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

• Support, per second paragraph of WP:UE. Powergate92Talk 20:57, 10 January 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Notability discussion

I think establishing notability would be more important here than moving to a title contradicting the style guidelines. Prime Blue (talk) 20:59, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

The song is indeed notable. It is by a notable artist (two actually), debuted in the top 10 when it was first releaced, is certified gold in its nation of origin, and was used as the opening theme song for a year long TV series. I'm fairly certain notability is established.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:00, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Still needs multiple reliable and independent sources with significant coverage. Prime Blue (talk) 21:13, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

It has them.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 21:18, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

I only see four references with trivial coverage in Japanese sources. Prime Blue (talk) 21:34, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Then you just can't read Japanese

• Refers to her move to Avex and her first single being this song
• Entirely focuses on the single and it being on the album Individual Emotion
• States the song sold 7000 copies in its first week
• States it had the #1 download ranking in its first week

Please try to comment on things you know about in the future.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:32, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Details on the production of the song? Critical reception? Is Natalie.mu a reliable source? Why does the article only use news posts if the song is notable? Prime Blue (talk) 23:28, 4 January 2011 (UTC)

Natalie.mu is an entertainment news outlet that is unaffiliated with any particular record label, has its own interview column (the Power Push), and reports on new albums, singles, concerts, etc. It's a reliable source. Critical reception and the making of the song is not essential or required for an article on a song. The page only uses news posts because it's easier to find those rather than reviews which might be published in other works that are not web accessible.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 00:36, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

I think the fact that you only used news posts and that you feel the need to justify the given references instead of providing better ones speaks volumes about the subject's notability. And looking over related pages, you just seem to have a different understanding of what's notable enough to have a Wikipedia article...it's not like dozens of nihongo templates would help. ;-) Prime Blue (talk) 14:21, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

Just because it's a bunch of news posts from music news sites does not mean that the single is not notable. And the main character of a 49 episode television show and two feature films is indeed notable for coverage. It is you who does not seem to understand the concept of notability when it comes to these topics. And the only justification I have given you is to say what the references in use are saying and explain to you how Natalie.mu and Oricon.co.jp are reliable third party references.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:58, 5 January 2011 (UTC)

• Being notable in Japan, does not make something notable for the English Wikipedia. It has to be notable to English-speakers. McLerristarr | Mclay1 10:20, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
  • Being notable anywhere makes it notable for the English Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 19:30, 8 January 2011 (UTC)

    Uh, different Wikipedias may have different notability guidelines. The Italian Wikipedia has a whole article about the circle game, but I bet that such an article on the English Wikipedia wouldn't have a snowball's chance in hell of surviving an AfD. --A. di M. (talk) 22:56, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

    If something has gained substantial coverage (airtime for music as well) then it's notable.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 23:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

  • Whoa, that is a very incorrect statement. By that logic, we could remove most cities, foreign movies, members of parliament of other countries, not to mention ancient history of central Africa or what not... if something is notable enough for any Wikipedia, I suspect it's notable for every Wikipedia. The problem with things not known in the Anglosphere isn't notability, but sourcing. --Golbez (talk) 20:05, 8 January 2011 (UTC)
    • Well, I disagree with that. World history and geography clearly are notable, but a song that no native English-speaker has heard of because it was never released in an English-speaking country is not notable in my opinion. My mum is notable to me, but not to Australia. Notability is relative. McLerristarr | Mclay1 15:31, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
      • If a song has broken the top 10 in a nation and has been used as the theme song for a year long television series and its two films, then it is notable for inclusion on any language Wikipedia.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 22:22, 9 January 2011 (UTC)
      • I'm a native English-speaker who has heard of this song. The single is by notable musicians and the article has multiple reliable sources so it meets WP:Notability (music)#Albums, singles and songs and is therefore notable for an article on English Wikipedia. Powergate92Talk 23:08, 9 January 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 3

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move. Appears to be no issues. KiloT 20:25, 13 June 2011 (UTC)

---

WBX (W-Boiled Extreme) → W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme) – There is absolutely no guideline on Wikipedia that states that this title is not allowed. As stated in the previous discussions, MOS:ABBR and MOS:TM in no way apply to the titles of songs, and WP:COMMONNAME states to use forms that are in use by reliable sources. No one refers to the song as "WBX". There was no consensus for the current title of the page in the first move request (tildes withstanding) and the second one further proved that "WBX" is not the accepted form of the song title, despite some vociferous opposition from a couple of editors.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 20:42, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

• Support, apparently, no sources for the unhyphenated version and no style reason to exclude hyphens from the title.--Kotniski (talk) 10:15, 27 May 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pronunciation

For a claim that the song should be pronounced in a way that is not obvious to a person who has never heard of the song, it needs a source. From WP:V: "To show that it is not original research, all material added to articles must be attributable to a reliable, published source appropriate for the content in question. In practice you do not need to attribute everything. This policy requires that all quotations and anything challenged or likely to be challenged be attributed in the form of an inline citation that directly supports the material." It states you do not have to cite everything but you do if it is challenged, which I have clearly done. Where was this information original gathered from? McLerristarr | Mclay1 06:50, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation found here and on the Japanese version as well as the song itself which goes "Daburu Bī Ekkusu" whenever the title is read in the song's name. And because a Karaoke listing is not all that useful as a citation, I am invoking WP:IAR to state that we at the English Wikipedia do not need a citation to show that the letter W in the title of this song is being used as a stand-in for the English word "Double" as it often does in the Japanese language.—Ryūlóng (竜龙) 06:53, 16 June 2011 (UTC)

Requested move 2013

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was not moved. Sounds like this is a case for an RfC, but until then, consensus is with the majority and the MOS. --BDD (talk) 17:25, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme) → W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~ – The form that the article title is currently in is used nowhere on the Internet. The song's title is universally parsed as "W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~" and has never been "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)". Here's the song on Amazon Japan, two news pieces, on iTunes, on Billboard, etc. Per WP:MOS-TM, we should not be coming up with forms that have never appeared in writing, and the only reason that this page is where it is is because WP:MOS-JA does not like tildes in page titles, but here the song has always been parsed in the English alphabet so it should not matter. —Ryulong (琉竜) 13:16, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Survey

Feel free to state your position on the renaming proposal by beginning a new line in this section with *'''Support''' or *'''Oppose''', then sign your comment with ~~~~. Since polling is not a substitute for discussion, please explain your reasons, taking into account Wikipedia's policy on article titles.

• Strong oppose per 2010 requested move, indicating failure of Wikipedia:MJ#Titles_of_books_and_other_media - this should be called WBX: W-Boiled Extreme per the MOSJ. And MOS:TM playful punctuation [ yellow tail ]. -- 76.65.128.222 (talk) 07:17, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  WP:MOS-JA#Subtitles clearly states that for song titles, parentheses are preferred in place of tildes or dashes or whatever but again this song's title has no Japanese text in it. If an American artist released a song that had such characters in it, there would be no change. But because it's a Japanese song, despite being parsed entirely in English, then this isn't allowed.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support move to W-B-X: W-Boiled Extreme (or a dash or some other standard punctuation). Having the unabbreviated name in parentheses makes it look like disambiguation, which it’s not and makes no sense here. Japanese titles using formatting 〜like this〜 are commonly localized using plain dashes or colons. —Frungi (talk) 07:32, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

  See above and below concerning the use of parentheses.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:15, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Support for Frungi's version.Lucia Black (talk) 22:50, 28 July 2013 (UTC)
• I must oppose both the IP's and Frungi's proposals as they are contra to the intent here and are also against WP:MOS-JA in another form.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:28, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

  Please see WP:MOS-JA#Subtitles on the use of the wave dash. —Frungi (talk) 18:51, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose: The current title formatting is standard for the English Wikipedia. —Frungi (talk) 19:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose: Per WP:MOSJP, that the song is in English obviously does not matter to this manual of style since one of the examples used in the subtitles section is Best: First Things. Ryulong is corrected when he stated at Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Japan-related articles#Tildes in place of the wave dash that "MOS:ABBR and MOS:TM do not govern song or album titles." so I do not understand why he stated here that WP:MOSTM does apply when it does not. Aspects (talk) 20:53, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Discussion

Any additional comments:

I just want to point out that none of the sources cited in the RM are in English… As an English encyclopedia, we go by English usage. —Frungi (talk) 15:30, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

There is no English usage, therefore we should not invent one. However, there is this Discogs entry. —Ryulong (琉竜) 05:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)

• Song titles are never formatted with a colon. This is how all song titles with subtitles are formatted. Do you say the same about "(Don't Fear) The Reaper" or "(I Can't Get No) Satisfaction" or whatever else I cited to at least get this understood at WP:MOS-JA the first time around? And to the IP citing the previous discussion and MOS:JP, I am seeking to make this an exception because the title is clearly written as "W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~" in all reliable sources. It has never been formatted as "WBX: W-Boiled Extreme" or "W-B-X: W-Boiled Extreme" so both of those violate MOS:TM. This current title does as well.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:05, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
  • Comment If other songs such as the two you have listed use parentheses for parts of their title, isn't that an indication that other songs with prefixes or suffixes should also use parentheses for consistency across Wikipedia? Besides, wouldn't those tildes be considered special characters, and thus to be avoided per MOS:TM: "Avoid using special characters that ... are included purely for decoration..."? (my emphasis). What if instead of tildes, they used a ♥? Or a ☆? Surely we wouldn't include those characters. I really don't see much of a difference.--十八 06:01, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
    • Yes but those songs are universally known by those titles. Same as "(You Make Me Feel Like A) Natural Woman". This song is universally referred to as "W-B-X ~W-Boiled Extreme~" barring the use of the SHIFT_JIS full width tilde or the wave dash and also the presence or lack of a space between the X and the first tilde.—Ryulong (琉竜) 06:16, 31 July 2013 (UTC)
      • Your English-language examples all have the parenthetical phrase at the front of the title (not the case here) and forming a complete phrase with the title (not the case here). I suggested a colon or dash (W-B-X – W-Boiled Extreme) or similar because having the parenthetical phrase at the end of the title makes it look like we’re trying to disambiguate, and because it appears to be an expansion of the abbreviation rather than a continuation of a phrase. (I haven’t heard the song, but if “W-B-X W-Boiled Extreme” appears at any point in it, my point is invalid.) —Frungi (talk) 19:00, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
        • Then look at songs like "Pleasure (Pleasure)", "Eh, Eh (Nothing Else I Can Say)", "Escape (The Piña Colada Song)", "Highway Unicorn (Road to Love)", "Put Your Hands Up (If You Feel Love)", "Come Alive (War of the Roses)", "This Love (Will Be Your Downfall)", "Spectrum (Say My Name)", "Rabbit Heart (Raise It Up)", "Teo Torriatte (Let Us Cling Together)", "Norwegian Wood (This Bird Has Flown)", "Street Spirit (Fade Out)", "I Want You (Hold On to Love)", "Shake (Like a Lettuce Leaf)", etc. (yes I just went through my music library looking for examples). And the issue concerning using a colon or a dash is also covered by WP:MOS-JA, a part I had to write in order to first fix the error arising from the use of the colon for song subtitles:

          Instead, change these subtitles to how they would appear in the titles of media released in English-speaking countries...a set of parentheses (( and )) for songs, television episodes, and other media. ...the song called "I miss you 〜時を越えて〜" is located here at "I Miss You (Toki o Koete)".

          So currently, this page's title meets the Japanese manual of style in that this song's subtitle "W-Boiled Extreme" is written between a pair of parentheses. However, as I thought I made it clear, I am seeking to make an exception to the manual of style per WP:IAR because nowhere is this song's name written as "WBX: W-Boiled Extreme", "W-B-X: W-Boiled Extreme", or "W-B-X (W-Boiled Extreme)". WP:TM, as is often quoted in these discussions, does not govern song titles so "unpronouncable decorative symbols" are not an issue. Also the song's lyrics contain the phrases "W-B-X" and "W-Boiled Extreme", although never one after the other, which you can see here ("W-Boiled Extreme" appears in Japanese as "ダブル ボイルド エクストリーム"). The song's music video has also been uploaded countless times on YouTube but never by the record label so I won't link you to any example.—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:20, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
          • Thanks for clarifying. I retract my support of any move, then. —Frungi (talk) 19:24, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
            • So now you're just blindly and strictly following the manual of style instead of considering my arguments of making an exception to it when I've pointed out some flaws in the current application and some flaws you yourself had in the original misunderstanding of the treatment of the wave dash?—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:27, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
              • No. I’m following precedent set throughout the encyclopedia. Other editors are of course free to ignore this and support your request for an exception. —Frungi (talk) 19:31, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
                • Well I'm asking you why can't an exception be made in this case considering the title is always written as "W-B-X～W Boiled Extreme～" then?—Ryulong (琉竜) 19:32, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
                  • To me? Because I haven’t seen any English-language sources that use the Japanese formatting. Until and unless that happens, it seems to me we should use English formatting, as WP:MOS-JA#Subtitles says. There is no reason to prefer wave dashes/tildes here; they convey no additional meaning, and they would potentially cause confusion for anyone not familiar with their use in Japanese titles. —Frungi (talk) 19:38, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
                    • I don't think there are any English language sources out there for this particular song. And as you are aware I'm looking to modify the manual of style to change this treatment.—Ryulong (琉竜) 21:02, 1 August 2013 (UTC)
                      • Right, no English sources yet, so we shouldn't deviate from the norm until we have reliable English sources that do. And as you know from my comment on there, I disagree with your proposed MOS-JA change (which would render this debate irrelevant), but good luck to you. —Frungi (talk) 23:48, 1 August 2013 (UTC)

Why should this impinge on finding sources within English when the title is written entirely in English already? The only thing that makes this deviate is the use of the wave dashes which no other group that writes about these things, although unprofessionally, omits when discussing the song.—Ryulong (琉竜) 05:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

We still don’t (or shouldn’t) base our formatting on use in foreign-language sources. That is, it’s not a matter of whether the title is in English, but how sources write about it in English. As an English-language encyclopedia, we abide by English-language usage and style guides. As far as I know, reliable English-language sources do not use wave dashes (or convert them to tildes) when discussing a title whose country of origin uses them, and wave dashes have no grammatical meaning distinct from normal dashes or parentheses. If no English-language sources have written about this particular title, then we should follow the precedent set by English-language sources that have written about similar titles, which is (hopefully primarily) what our own style guidance on this matter is based on. —Frungi (talk) 07:12, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I do not think I've seen any song normally written with the tildes in Japanese written in any fashion in English outside of fansites (not reliable sources) or the English Wikipedia. So there is really no precedent as to how to deal with wave dashes, or dashes, or tildes, or what have you. We only base the current manual of style on how English songs' titles are formatted which presents this problem.—Ryulong (琉竜) 08:17, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Then why limit it to titles written in English? Or are you also proposing that titles like “I miss you 〜時を越えて〜” be rendered here as “I Miss You ~Toki o Koete~”? And should we retain other decorative characters like stars and hearts? Where’s the line? Discouraging all such decorative characters precludes debates where such slippery slopes must be explored. —Frungi (talk) 08:43, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes. I would propose that we move the other example to "I Miss You ~Toki o Koete~" and "Best: First Things" to "Best ~First Things". If you can type it on a QWERTY or AZERTY or Dvorak keyboard then I don't see why it shouldn't be allowed as an article title. And for this song and others the wave dash is not decorative. It is simply a way to demarcate the subtitle because Japan apparently doesn't like parentheses which they retain if there's a non-standard pronunciation or the colon.—Ryulong (琉竜) 08:47, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly: it’s a style particular to Japan. There’s no reason we should retain it for an English-language work outside of Japan. This isn’t that dissimilar from insisting that Japanese voice actors be referred to here as “seiyuu”, and not much less absurd, in my opinion. —Frungi (talk) 08:55, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

We retain the capitalization forms for titles of songs in other languages like "Dragostea din tei" (someone moved it within the past few months without discussion) and "Tu aurais dû me dire (Oser parler d'amour)". I don't see why we would not keep a stylization format from Japanese just because it's normally written in a non-Latin script and it includes one non-standard character that can be easily duplicated with ~.—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:06, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

And I don't understand why I can't make a hypothetical situation about a non-Japanese musician using the tilde in a song title and I'm fairly certain that because there would be English language press reporting the song as having the tilde in the title there would be no problem. But because no one is apparently ever going to write about this song or Koda's first greatest hits album we have to change it to conform to a style that has never been used in regards to Japanese music but only to American/British/Australian/Canadian music.—Ryulong (琉竜) 09:13, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

If you don't think there's a substantive difference between preserving lowercase lettering and preserving purely decorative characters… I don't know what to tell you. Anyway, I humbly recommend starting an RfC at MOS:JAPAN to get some more opinions and hopefully get the matter settled either way. —Frungi (talk) 14:09, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

I think after all these attempts at the manual of style, I need to start a wider discussion at the village pump instead. I've tried many times to coordinate discussions between MOSCAPS and MOSTM and the like and they never do anything.—Ryulong (琉竜) 15:00, 2 August 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.