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Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Video games#Non-English gamesEdit

WP:VG/GL mediationEdit

Template to show in parenthesis: 1) kanji/kana, and then 2) rōmajiEdit

Greetings!

I was wondering if there is a simple tag that just shows in parenthesis (A) the kanji/kana, and then (B) the rōmaji? I would need such a tag in the lede of an article that I'm editing (Lean manufacturing), and the current text go like this (numeration added):

Lean manufacturing or lean production, often simply "lean", is a (4) systematic method for waste minimization ((3) "Muda") within a manufacturing system without sacrificing productivity, which can cause problems.

I have worked earlier with the MOS:JAPAN[1] and MOS:CHINA[2][3], but I've never run into a problem that simple before. In the aforementioned article, all I want to say is the following (numeration added):

Lean manufacturing or lean production, often simply "lean", is a (4) systematic method for waste minimization ((3) Muda (2) 無駄) within a manufacturing system without sacrificing productivity, which can cause problems.

So, what's the problem? Let's reflect through a China-related article, Fuji (the numerations added):

Beginning around the Ming Dynasty (1368-1644 CE), the fuji method and written characters changed from (2) 扶箕 (1) "support the sieve" (4) (spirit-writing using a suspended sieve or winnowing tray)

So in a nutshell, we have (1) the English translation (support the sieve), (2) hanzi (扶箕), (3) romanization of the word (not present in the aforementioned quote), and (4) an explanation for the English term ((spirit-writing using a suspended sieve or winnowing tray)). See, in the Japan-related articles there is already a practice on how to deal with this kind of sentences, and the formatting of sentences follows the exact structure as mentioned above ((1) - (2) - (3) - (4)). This is handled by a language tag {{nihongo}}. For example, in the Shinnyo-en article, a similar piece of text is handled like this:

Joyful donations (歓喜 kangi, monetary contribution to the organization)

In plain code, this would appear as: {{nihongo|Joyful donations|歓喜|kangi|monetary contribution to the organization}}

But now, the queestion is how do we deal with a (4) - (3) - (2) structure? Actually, we could just forget about the first part, number (4) ("...systematic method for waste minimization.) It already gives the English explanation by itself. But how to deal with the remaining part? Something so simple. Inside parenthesis ... (3) the first part transliterated, (3) the second part in kanji/kana.

I hope I could make myself understood! :-) The numerration is supposed to be coherent through all the examples! Cheers! ;-) Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 22:31, 1 February 2019 (UTC)

I have read this post of yours three times, but still fail to understand it. Within it, you say:
all I want to say is the following (numeration added):

Lean manufacturing or lean production, often simply "lean", is a (4) systematic method for waste minimization ((3) Muda (2) 無駄) within a manufacturing system without sacrificing productivity, which can cause problems.

What's wrong with

Lean manufacturing or lean production, often simply "lean", is a systematic method for waste minimization (Muda 無駄) within a manufacturing system without sacrificing productivity, which can cause problems.

? (Incidentally, I'm puzzled by your capitalization of Muda; is this relevant to the thread immediately below?) -- Hoary (talk) 00:08, 7 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks, Hoary! I don't blame you; I'm so knee deep in hoopla with the topic, that sometimes I can't see the forest for the trees :-) Let me rephrase my question. I was wondering if there exists a template for: Muda 無駄 ? At the moment, one parameter ((3) romanization of the word) is excluded from the template syntax ((2) hanzi), {{nihongo2|無駄}}.
A steady nihongo -template would help the coherence and consistency across the articles. Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 19:03, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
I do not understand why it would ever be necessary to have the romanization (3) precede the kanji (2) in such a case. If kanji are important enough to include, they are important enough to include before the romanization. Otherwise, what are you romanizing? Hoary's workaround allows you to do it, but things are already usefully standardized across articles by Template:Nihongo, because as you noted above, waste minimization (無駄, muda) (that is, {{nihongo|waste minimization|無駄|muda}}) already yields the kanji and romanization in a specific order consistently. Dekimasuよ! 20:07, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Setting aside for the moment that muda is really the waste itself (what needs elimination) and not actually its minimization or the translation of any other particular term here. Dekimasuよ! 20:09, 23 February 2019 (UTC)
Dekimasu You are right. Considering the fact that indeed kanji should precede the romanization, {{nihongo}} is perfectly sufficient. For example, {{nihongo|waste|無駄|muda}} gives a nice and beautiful: waste (無駄, muda). And of course, the (1) English translation is there by definition (or else, what would the kanji be referring to?).
Even with a longer insert, {{nihongo}} can be used. For example, the is a systematic method originating in the Japanese manufacturing industry for the minimization of {{nihongo|waste|無駄|muda}} would appear as: is a systematic method originating in the Japanese manufacturing industry for the minimization of waste (無駄, muda).
However, a little more complicated issue arises with the following example, where the parenthesised kanji and romanization are preceded by (4) an explanation for the English term:

Lean also takes into account waste created through ... unevenness in work loads (斑 mura). (emphasis added)

Above, the underscored word uneveness would be the (1) English translation, but there are other explanatory words in between the (2) kanji and the (3) romanization, and thus the {{nihongo}} template here does not work.
In other words, how to cope when such a case arises? Jayaguru-Shishya (talk) 11:47, 13 June 2019 (UTC)

Japanese instructions on namesEdit

Surely account now needs to be taken of the Japanese preferences for writing names with the family name first. See Foreign Minister Taro Kono to ask media to switch order of Japanese names. Any comments? What about Shinzō Abe?--Ipigott (talk) 07:44, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

The request by the foreign minister could be discussed at Japanese name, perhaps, but our manual of style would not be based upon official names even were we to recognize this as under the purview of the Japanese government (which we don't, really). I never say "Shinzō Abe" when speaking English, but I don't think the story cited here presents any new issues that aren't already taken into account in the style guide. Dekimasuよ! 09:26, 22 May 2019 (UTC)
Note that the Ukrainian government actually sent a letter to the foundation asking for Kiev to be renamed to Kyiv, but Kiev is still more common, so ENwiki uses that. The surnames style should reflect the preferences of most English popular media sources. If those sources change suit, Wikipedia shall do so. WhisperToMe (talk) 14:13, 22 May 2019 (UTC)

Name orderEdit

Hi, I have a question about the name order for biographies of Japanese individuals. I'm aware that our articles tend to put the family name last for biographies on living people and those who lived recently, but where exactly do we draw that line> For instance, when I see an article such as Asada Tokunori (an individual who lived from 1848 to 1933), which name is the family name? Lepricavark (talk) 14:37, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

  • The cut-off used to be 1868 (the beginning of the Meiji era), but that was overturned somewhat recently (last couple of years?), and doesn't seem to have been replaced with any other rule-of-thumb. If you follow the 1868 cut-off, though, you probably won't go wrong. Curly "JFC" Turkey 🍁 ¡gobble! 01:26, 27 June 2019 (UTC)
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