Talk:Swiss cheese (North America)

Edit request on 24 January 2012 to reverse last vandalism

When this article got protected, I see some vandalism was left in... Please delete "(ehh I just fawted " because it appears to be vandalism. Same as a rollback to oldid 472979546 Thanks! Arg342 (talk) 22:21, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks for pointing it out--Jac16888 ^Talk 22:26, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Requested move 24 August 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: no consensus. Several reasonable proposals but nothing close to agreement. Jenks24 (talk) 02:11, 9 September 2015 (UTC)

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• Swiss cheese → ?
• Swiss cheese (disambiguation) → Swiss cheese

– According to the current primary topic itself, it seems that leaving the current primary topic at the ambiguous title could be seen as systemic bias, given that this topic seems to only exist in American English-speaking use. Another topic on the disambiguation page that could be called "Swiss cheese" is Emmental cheese, which could possibly be the more common use of the term "Swiss cheese" throughout other parts of the world; this cheese also seems to be where the current primary topic received its name. Steel1943 (talk) 13:43, 24 August 2015 (UTC) Relisted. Jenks24 (talk) 20:26, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• Comment. Would it not be better to simply merge the two articles Swiss cheese and Emmental cheese? Most of the Swiss cheese#Production section discusses the bacteria used in the production of emmental cheese, and how they help form the cheese's taste and the eye holes -- this seems to be the same content in the second paragraph of the Emmental cheese page's lead section. And then the Swiss cheese#Varieties (other than showing {{Nutrient contents of common cheeses}}, is a very short paragraph. This sort of reminds me of the third paragraph of Kleenex#Kleenex Trademark, where it discusses that the "Kleenex" brand name has become genericized, and that the name has become a synonym for any type of facial tissue. In a way it's similar: the phrase "swiss cheese" has become to refer to any cheese made in North America that resembles emmental cheese. Zzyzx11 (talk) 06:32, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Merge seems eminently sensible.Pincrete (talk) 08:12, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

• Merge to Emmental cheese or rename to Swiss cheese (North America). In either case, redirect Swiss cheese to List of Swiss cheeses and keep Swiss cheese (disambiguation) as is. Clearly the primary, non-systemically biased topic is cheese made in Switzerland in general and not just Emmental (as using it this specifically is also an Americanism - in Britain and the rest of Europe we call Emmental...Emmental!). -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:40, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

• I oppose a merge. The respective articles say that the cheeses are similar but not the same. Agnostic on the move proposals. —  AjaxSmack  00:08, 8 September 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

School Project

Hello Fellow Wikipedia editors,

On behalf of my fellow student team enrolled in an introductory food science course at UBC, we would like to use our newly learned food science knowledge to enhance this article on (filled in the chosen food). In particular, we are interested in exploring and contributing to production of swiss cheese, preservation of swiss cheese, and packaging of swiss cheese. We will continue to post our outlines and drafts on this sandbox. We welcome all comments and feedback. We look forward to contributing to Wikipedia via this course assignment. Signed, FNH 200 Team 4.

Requested move 23 March 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed, with Swiss cheese (disambiguation) taking over the base name. The idea of a concept dab is certainly backed in policy, but no consensus appeared to put that at the base name. No consensus certainly developed either to put any page besides the disambiguation page at the base name. Moving forward, any improvements to this article are certainly appreciated, and some discontent was expressed (regardless of the merits of the move) about the particular disambiguator chosen, so I would not be surprised to see a second move request to find a different title for this new page that is not just Swiss cheese. (non-admin closure) Red Slash 23:44, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

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Swiss cheese → Swiss cheese (North America) – The American cheese discussed in this article is very clearly not the primary topic, and the title is downright misleading. The American cheese is unknown outside North America, and frankly I find it pretty insulting to the 450+ types of real Swiss cheeses to have this stuff take the plain title. Despite this misleading title, it does not even get the top views - see this analysis, where it gets 1/3 of the views of Emmental cheese, and fewer than Raclette & Gruyere (I added this one to Category:Swiss cheeses just for the duration of this RM - obviously it should not be there long-term). "Swiss cheese" should redirect to the disam page Swiss cheese (disambiguation), under that title or the plain name. That should look something like this recent version. There are some pertinent comments in the ill-attended and confused discussion 5 years ago (see above), where the proposal was left unclear - always fatal. I see no merit in a merge of anything. Johnbod (talk) 04:04, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

• Support as nom. Johnbod (talk) 13:14, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom.-- ZH8000 (talk) 08:39, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom. IMO "Swiss cheese" should redirect to List of Swiss cheeses as primary topic, with a {{redirect}}-hatnote in the latter pointing to the dab-page. –Austronesier (talk) 11:57, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
  • Add I am fine with the dab page as target for the primary topic of "Swiss cheese". We could then leave out "(disambiguation)" in the title. –Austronesier (talk) 19:15, 24 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support The current article called "Swiss cheese" can move as proposed, and then "Swiss cheese" can either redirect to List of Swiss cheeses or be a disambiguation page. Blue Rasberry (talk) 13:05, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Personally, I like the disam page as target better, partly because it gets you quicker to the main 4 pages people actually seem to want. Johnbod (talk) 13:12, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

• Support and put the dab page at Swiss cheese per Bluerasberry and Johnbod. No need to keep (disambiguation) in the title. Axem Titanium (talk) 16:23, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support, per Axem. Both Emmental and Gruyère are commonly known Swiss cheeses, while this variant is known in Canada and the US. There is no primary topic here. © Tbhotch^™ (en-3). 18:04, 23 March 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose - The sources in the current Swiss cheese article indicate that this is a broad class of hole-filled cheese, of with there are varieties including Emmental and the mass market North America types. This article includes very little information which is specific to North America, and it works best as a WP:BROADCONCEPT. The idea of displacing this most common meaning of "Swiss cheese" just to draw a distinction with "cheeses of Switzerland" is silly, as that is and can be handled in the hatnotes. This broad class of hole-filled cheese is also the root of other topics like Swiss cheese features, Swiss cheese (mathematics), and Swiss cheese model. For these reasons, it would be tremendously WP:ASTONISHing to most readers if this rename were to proceed. -- Netoholic @ 04:52, 24 March 2020 (UTC) ADDED: I looks like the nominator's page views link is misleading. While there was a recent spike in Emmental, longer term page views show a much better comparison. -- Netoholic @ 07:36, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

The article makes it clear that is discussing at least two types of cheese, one with holes imitating Emmental and one without (presumably imitating Gruyere). It makes no attempt whatsoever to be a WP:BROADCONCEPT - if you want one of those, feel free to write it. What is WP:ASTONISHing is precisely the present situation. The long-term figures are interesting, & I had no idea there was an Emmental spike, but this article is still nowhere near meeting the requirement of WP:PTOPIC, as you must be aware. It's not as if the the proposal is to make List of Swiss cheeses the primary redirect (though one editor has suggested this above), but the disam page. What arguments are there for the American cheese meeting the requirements of WP:PTOPIC, as regards clarity, predominance in RS, highest views, lack of ambiguity, etc etc? You're not making any case. You seem to be talking about a hypothetical article that might exist, not the one we actually have here, which is fine as far as it goes, but very clearly discussing actual American cheeses. Johnbod (talk) 14:22, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per above comment. The proposal seems to conflate Swiss cheese (a compound noun indicating a specific type of cheese) with Swiss cheeses (a class of multiple types of cheeses where "Swiss" is an adjective, as in List of Swiss cheeses). Swiss cheese is similar to, if not identical with, Emmenthaler. Cheeses of Switzerland (Swiss cheeses) include but are not limited to Emmenthaler. Swiss cheese is also not confined to North America; some of the best Swiss cheese comes from Finland. Station1 (talk) 07:19, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

So you think there's nothing at all misleading in having an American cheese be the primary topic for "Swiss cheese", even though it gets nothing like the most views? Very wierd. Feel free to create Swiss cheese (Finland), but as far as the rest of the world is concerned, "Swiss cheese" only comes from Switzerland, and is a legally protected term in the EU. MOS:COMMONALITY applies here. Johnbod (talk) 14:23, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

I never mentioned anything at all about primary topic. This has nothing to do with primary topic. To the contrary, I specifically said these are two separate topics. I also said it's not solely American, nor solely Swiss. A quick google search shows the term used in Australia and India. Finnish Swiss cheese is still Swiss cheese; it's also not a separate topic. "Swiss cheese" is Emmenthaler. It's the same topic. The articles should probably be merged. Which name you use depends partly on geography, although there is some overlap. Cheeses of Switzerland is a separate topic. To say one is primary over the other would make no sense. Station1 (talk) 23:46, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Not that I agree, but if you are correct, then the disam page is very clearly the correct place for plain "Swiss cheese" to take the reader per policy, not an article that only mentions American cheese and the Swiss original. Johnbod (talk) 00:03, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: This situation is very much like Cheddar cheese which originally meant a cheese that originated from Cheddar, England, but now around the world is often called "cheddar" or "cheddar cheese" even when produced in other countries. It has become a broad type rather than a specific variety... and the broad type is the common meaning. In this case, Emmenthaler was probably recognized first as a "Swiss cheese" (a cheese from Switzerland) and noted for its hole-filled nature, but has inspired a broad variety of hole-filled "swiss cheese" produced all around the world. Further, that hole-filled nature has itself inspired other terms like swiss cheese model and others I linked above. Its quite frankly obvious to me that this broad variety of hole-filled cheese is the primary topic, and the state of the article should not be a factor, since that can be improved once we all understand the scope of it. -- Netoholic @ 03:47, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

So exactly as I said above - you are insisting that the primary meaning is given to a hypothetical article that doesn't yet exist, but you think ought to! Btw, I've added Gruyere and Raclette to the long term views figures, with surprising results. Emmental is only the 3rd most viewed type of Swiss cheese. Cheddar cheese never came from Cheddar, btw, it was just sold there, on the main road. Johnbod (talk) 03:59, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: Gruyere and Raclette are not commonly called by the alternate/generic name "Swiss cheese" and neither of those articles are candidates to move to Swiss cheese, so you're adding irrelevant topics. That's like comparing views of car with Porche 911. -- Netoholic @ 04:26, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I think your arguments proceed from your own very local experience. In most of the world "Swiss cheese" means a cheese from Switzerland, and if you asked for "Swiss cheese" in a food shop you would get an odd look & a request for a more specific type. This is why the plain term must go to the disam. Johnbod (talk) 04:32, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod: Now THAT sounds to me like your local experience. And sure, if I went into a specialty cheese shop, I agree that I would have to be more specific, but thats not a common experience. But the thing is, we can accommodate all of this by keeping this article in place and ensuring it is constructed as a WP:BROADCONCEPT. -- Netoholic @ 04:45, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Or, much better, by accepting the proposal. I expect you are American & can buy packs just labelled "Swiss cheese". Believe me, this is not the case in most of the world. Johnbod (talk) 15:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

What about in Australia? Station1 (talk) 19:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I've just updated the article to meet some of those concerns. I've taken out the unsourced addition of "North American" from 2013 and added some sourced info about where Swiss cheese is produced and how it's the same as or differs from Emmenthaler. Hopefully the article is a little more global now, but it should still probably be merged. Station1 (talk) 08:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I'm minded to revert this, as clearly intended to interfere with the RM process. Nobody else wants to merge it that I can see. But it doesn't make the article cover the subject of "Swiss cheese" any better. It doesn't alter that the disam page remains the appropriate target. Johnbod (talk) 15:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I think I prefer the word influence rather than interfere. But I do hope sourced facts about the worldwide production and consumption of Swiss/Emmenthaler prevent adoption of a misleading and unnecessary title. Station1 (talk) 19:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

• Comment: I would suggest American Swiss cheese (see American Chinese cuisine). jamacfarlane (talk) 23:49, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

Except that's not its common name. Or if you mean American to be an adjective, it's incorrect, since Swiss cheese exists in at least Canada, Australia, New Zealand, India and Finland. Station1 (talk) 23:53, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

@Station1: Yes, I meant it as an adjective. The same can be said for "American Chinese food". We just call it "Chinese food" and have it almost everywhere across the world. jamacfarlane (talk) 04:11, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

I think the difference may be that American Chinese food is apparently substantially different from Chinese food, but Swiss cheese is identical to, or sometimes a minor variation of, traditional or original Emmenthaler from Switzerland. Station1 (talk) 08:43, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. Clearly not the primary topic for the term worldwide. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:05, 25 March 2020 (UTC)
• Support per nom, dab page at Swiss cheese. Captainllama (talk) 11:05, 1 April 2020 (UTC)
• Support, put disambiguation at Swiss cheese. "Swiss cheese" in non-American English means "Cheese from Switzerland", and isn't even known for having holes, so isn't a metaphor for anything. 82.69.229.22 (talk) 11:44, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

Citations to usage in Australia and India have already been provided. For European metaphorical uses, see papers from the Royal College of Physicians of Edinburgh or the European Organisation for the Safety of Air Navigation. - Station1 (talk) 20:19, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

The European metaphorical uses, many with their own articles, are good arguments for making the disam primary; they certainly won't refer to American cheese. Johnbod (talk) 01:13, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

The metaphor of the Swiss cheese model would not make sense if the cheese did not have holes. Station1 (talk) 06:53, 3 April 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

This disambiguator sucks

Pardon me for being so blunt, but I never saw the move discussion (somehow this accidentally got bumped off my watchlist), and I feel the need to state my objection. It's clear, from the sources already in the article, that the use of "Swiss cheese" to describe all cheeses made in the Emmentaler style regardless of origin is not exclusive to North America, nor is it exclusively a cheese made in North America. Subsequently the disambiguator is utterly misleading and factually incorrect.

What we have hear is a style of cheese that originated in the Emmental area of Switzerland and was picked up by many places, and is made pretty much everywhere. There's no substantive difference between emmental/Swiss made in Canada from one made in Finland, or from one made in Australia. Much like cheddar is a general style that can be made anywhere. The only difference is that in some areas, the region of origin became the generic term, while in other areas the country did. It is not a separate type of cheese and shouldn't be disambiguated as though it is. If anything, the articles should be merged, with the specific PDO version getting a separate article.

(I'd even say "Swiss cheese" the most common name for the style in the English language, considering the difference in populations, and that it is more widespread than just North America, but reminding people that the US and Canada have more native speakers of English than all other countries combined is one of those things that offends some for some reason, but I digress.) oknazevad (talk) 17:01, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Pity you missed it, but the community verdict was clear - essentially the same points as you make were expressed at great length and with considerable vehemence, and rejected. The comparison with cheddar makes the point - that actually is a general style of cheese. There is indeed a "substantive difference between emmental/Swiss made in Canada from one made in Finland, or from one made in Australia", in terms of quality and authenticity. That's why the Swiss are able to charge so much more for their genuine product, and still sell it all over the world. What you say is like saying there is "no substantive difference" between a first-growth Bordeaux and a cheap Cabernet Sauvingon from the US/Chile/Australia etc etc. Merging has now been rejected in two discussions. The article has always made it clear that it covered a range of cheeses, with holes and without, and the infobox has always said "Country of origin - United States". That's what the article is about. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Right, because Finlandia is a cheap imitation. My point is your claims that there's a substantive difference are not supported by any sources whatsoever. Nor are any claims that "emmental" is used to refer only to cheeses actually made in Switzerland. Indeed, the Emmental cheese article states exactly the opposite, with sources. Cheese from Germany, Finland, and the Netherlands are also called "emmental" in English. I already mentioned that the PDO versions should continue to have a separate article, but that is a red herring to the point. There is no distinct North American style of "Swiss cheese" in contrast to other places that make Swiss-style outside Switzerland (a claim that, again, you have shown no sources to support), nor is the use of the term "Swiss cheese" to describe all emmental-style cheese exclusive to North America. Neither of those being true, then the disambiguator is, frankly, a lie, and needs to be changed, even if the articles aren't merged. oknazevad (talk) 17:46, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

I've also been trying to remove from the dab page the recently added false statement that Swiss cheese (North America) is "a number of types of cheese, similar to Emmental, made outside Switzerland", but it's been put in 4 times by Johnbod so far. Station1 (talk) 22:32, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

"a number of types of cheese, similar to Emmental" is exactly what the article says, and always has been. What is false about that? The article only talks about cheeses made outside Switzerland. I've said above that if people want to start Swiss cheese (Finland) they should go ahead. Is that what Finlandia is? I think I'm dropping out of this - it isn't helping anything. Johnbod (talk) 23:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Swiss cheese is produced in many countries, including Switzerland. Swiss cheese made from pasteurized milk and labeled as "Swiss cheese" and "Imported from Switzerland" is available in the United States (at least). Station1 (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)

Why "N America"? Isn't the term also used elsewhere?

I know it from German and Romanian for instance. Don't Brits, Aussies, NZers also use it? Arminden (talk) 17:15, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Short answer, no. In the UK and the rest of the EU it is illegal to sell cheese not made in Switzerland as "Swiss cheese" (in any language). It is however not illegal to call this stuff "Emmental", which is what often happens. In the UK "Swiss cheese" means (amazingly) cheese made in Switzerland. See also Swiss-type cheeses. There's a lot of discussion on this above. Johnbod (talk) 17:27, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

As for German, don't fall for the hole-metaphor fallacy. While we do say in German "...hat Löcher wie ein schweizer Käse", asking for "schweizer Käse" in a store will certainly be followed by the question "which sort?", and not just for legal reasons. –Austronesier (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

Yes, this article is mistitled. The term is also used outside North America. Station1 (talk) 19:24, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@Johnbod and Austronesier: folks, WP might sell itself as an encyclopedia, but this is the talk-page, and anyhow, there are several levels to language, most of them going far beyond academic, legal, or bureaucratic definitions. "Schweizer Käse" (with upper-case S pls), and possibly "Swiss cheese" too, as an expression, identical or not with Emmenthal cheese or similar types of cheese, is very legit, and users are welcome to look up the expression as much as the narrow definition of some recently legally reserved trademark. Johnbod, thank you very much for the native speaker contribution re. the UK meaning of "Swiss cheese"; that's exactly what I was asking for, as an outsider. That does close one door in an authoritative way. Now let's see what @Station1: means by saying that "the term is also used outside North America": used in what sense, cheese with holes, tasting a bit like Emmenthal cheese, or any Swiss-made cheese? And what countries or cultures does (s)he have in mind? In the end, I think we should distinguish between two or three aspects of the word: 1) Emmenthal-like cheese; the word is used to signify this in N Am, and possibly elsewhere too. 2) Swiss-type or Alpine cheese; used as such in the UK (and where else?); 3) only if it's the case: similar to German, meaning Emmenthal-type or Alpine cheese WITH HOLES. The latter use might not exist, but the connotation does: just google for "Swiss cheese"+"holes". It shows almost 1.5 million hits, including lots of cute (and relevant) stories about children's folklore. So maybe not as an actual English expression, but as a concept, "Swiss cheese" as "cheese with holes" does very much exist in English too, and it should be mentioned. Indicating where concretely which meaning applies would be very useful for non-native speakers like me. Thanks, Arminden (talk) 11:37, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

Johnbod's arguments are about usage, so are mine. If I go to a German store that has a cheese counter and ask for "Schweizer Käse", I will be offered just that: cheese from Switzerland, a dozen of sorts (or more) with and without holes (remember, it's the very definition of Swiss Gruyère not to have holes; the one with holes is from France LOL). Expecting the person at the counter to interpret my request as actually asking for Emmenthal-type cheese regardless of origin would be quite ambitious. (But it might be an interesting experiment.) –Austronesier (talk) 12:16, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

See the not very good List of Swiss cheeses - not all are "Swiss-type", nor do they have holes, but they are all from Switzerland. The term is not that different from "French cheese" or "Italian cheese", which carries no real suggestion of a single type - Brie perhaps. "Swiss cheese" in the north American sense can be found used in other English-speaking countries, but I don't believe it is nearly a big a thing there as in America. Johnbod (talk) 14:32, 3 December 2020 (UTC)

@Arminden: you asked of me, "Now let's see what @Station1 means by saying that 'the term is also used outside North America': used in what sense, cheese with holes, tasting a bit like Emmenthal cheese, or any Swiss-made cheese? And what countries or cultures does (s)he have in mind?". 'Swiss cheese' as used in this article is identical to Emmenthaler cheese. The term is sometimes used in at least Australia and India and the cheese is made in at least Finland, Estonia, Ireland, Australia, Switzerland and Israel. As a metaphor, the term is also used in the UK. Whether or not it is primarily an American term, the fact that it is used in other countries makes the article's title suboptimal. Station1 (talk) 07:40, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

@Station1: Thank you very much. I had a hunch that might be the case. I mean all your remarks, but particularly the fact that "As a metaphor, the term is also used in the UK", as I'm personally more interested in the living language and its suggestive expressions than in merchandising standards. WP is interested in both, and more.

@Austronesier: Sorry, but that's not very accurate: your arguments are not about usage per se, but about usage in a store. The expression you quoted, "...hat Löcher wie ein Schweizer Käse", is very common and is also "usage", just a different aspect of it.

What I would like to see, here as anywhere on WP, is that all common and plausible meanings are listed and dealt with. What we have now, "Swiss cheese (North America)" is, as Station1 put it, suboptimal. And that's a very nice example of English understatement, IMHO :) Arminden (talk) 11:55, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

This article is about food. –Austronesier (talk) 14:59, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

The metaphorical meanings mostly have their own articles - see Swiss cheese. I have in the past tried to expand that a bit in ways that I think would be more helpful to the reader, but have been several times reverted by the New York deli lobby - see the page history. I don't see why they should be covered here. Btw, the contention that generic "Swiss cheese" exclusively copies Emmental is I think wrong, but secondary. Also the usage in India relies on one or more newspaper living section articles clearly ripped off from Wikipedia & American web-pages. Johnbod (talk) 12:32, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

If this is "in North America" then why does it refer almost exclusively to the US, and in passing mention Australia? North America includes Canada and arguably Mexico. Either the article should be only on the US, or it should include more content from other countries. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.246.130.230 (talk) 02:18, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Well, that's the dispute, isn't it? The (cited) fact that the term is used outside just the US and Canada, along with the term being used for cheese of the style regardless of where it's made means the disambiguator is poor. oknazevad (talk) 11:12, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

If you've got material on Canadian cheese, please add it. Or Mexican. Johnbod (talk) 15:12, 6 December 2020 (UTC)

Cultural appropriation

This article should clearly have a link to Cultural appropriation, as "Swiss cheese" is not in any way close to any sort of thing produced and sold in Switzerland under that name. Sophos II (talk) 14:26, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Some Swiss cheese is produced in Switzerland under that name. I'm not sure if it's sold there under that name, but if not, it might be because English, although widespread, is not one of the 4 official languages. Station1 (talk) 15:02, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

That is nonsense. If a cheesemaker in Switzerland was to produce anything called Swiss cheese, it would most probably be a third-class, waste product resulting from botched attempts to prepare any of more than 400 varieties of proper Swiss cheeses (perhaps still good for export, though, there is always someone to buy anything). Such bad and non-reputable cheesemaker would most certainly want to remain anonymous, otherwise, please indicate one. Sophos II (talk) 00:43, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Boar's Head and Emmi and 365 by Whole Foods Market all sell Swiss cheese made in Switzerland. If you don't like their quality, you're entitled your opinion, but the statement that Swiss cheese is not produced in Switzerland is simply incorrect. Station1 (talk) 06:05, 16 August 2021 (UTC)

I asked for producers (cheesemakers), not providers. The Swiss producers of things such as white blocks of rectangular-shaped "Swiss cheese" (https://boarshead.com/products/cheese/985-pre-cut-gold-label-imported-swiss-cheese, "Inspired by the classic from Switzerland", which of the 400+ "classics"? ) would, of course, want to remain anonymous, for reputation reasons and not to be sacked by the Käse Meisters. Interesting that Boar's Head doesn't even indicate a Swiss region from where that thing is produced... at the Basel industrial zone, perhaps?

Emmi (https://www.emmiusa.com/cheese/switzerland-swiss/): that one is interesting, as it provides a link "where to buy", and if one clicks on it, there is a Product Request Form to fill about all sorts of cheeses, but none that is called "Swiss cheese". That must be confusing to the consumer, but it's done for obvious reasons again: reputation. I bet that the proper Emmentaler, the more look-alike of the hundreds of sorts of Swiss cheeses to the "Swiss cheese", will be way more expensive than their advertised "Swiss cheese", proving that the latter is one of their byproducts of lower and less desirable quality, suitable only for foreign and undemanding markets.

Whole Foods seems to sell Emmentaler calling it "Swiss cheese", but it doesn't try to hide this and the true identity of that cheese (unless I missed something). "Swiss cheese" (cultural appropriation) is not Emmentaler, although Emmentaler is indeed a Swiss cheese. Whole Foods are in this respect honest distributors, but they are still not producers and not selling anonymous, low-grade "Swiss cheese".

I, therefore, stand with my claim that "Swiss cheese" is a cultural appropriation as no "Swiss cheese" is produced and sold under that name in Switzerland, only lower quality kinds sometimes distributed elsewhere in the world under that name (at lower prices, as properly named cheeses, cheeses with a proper AOC/AOP for example, would obviously be way more expensive), and that this should be mentioned in the article. There is nothing wrong with "Swiss cheese" being produced and sold just anywhere in the world except perhaps in Antarctica, people just have to know that they won't find such a thing sold in Switzerland, where every one of their 400+ cheeses has a proper, respected name. They should perhaps also know that if such a product was sold in Switzerland, it would most probably be used as bait in mousetraps.Sophos II (talk) 18:07, 30 August 2021 (UTC)

Guess what, I've reached an advanced age living in England (London), & I've never seen an English muffin nor a London broil in this country. What are they like, these Americans? Johnbod (talk) 03:25, 31 August 2021 (UTC)

You'll find no French letters in France, nor capotes anglaises in England. Captainllama (talk) 16:29, 2 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 27 October 2021

"Swiss cheese" does not equal real Swiss Cheese and is offensive to Swiss culture. 71.211.130.241 (talk) 03:33, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Cannolis (talk) 04:42, 27 October 2021 (UTC)

The term "Swiss cheese" exists in other countries too

It is literally said in this article that the term "Swiss cheese" is also used outside North America. So therefore, I think the "North America" portion of the title should be removed. 24.51.242.175 (talk) 13:26, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Er, no. It is there precisely because the term "Swiss cheese" is also used outside North America. This covers only the American stuff. See Swiss cheese. Johnbod (talk) 15:33, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, of course it should. The title is misleading. "Swiss cheese" as used in this article is just Emmentaler. - Station1 (talk) 18:54, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

And there's still been no proof offered that outside of PDO varieties that generic varieties from outside North America (such as Belgian, French, Finnish, and Norwegian) are actually different than ones made there outside of typical variance from one manufacturer to another. It is still not a different cheese any more than generic Parmesan (as opposed to PDO varieties) is. It's not a different product, it's just a different name for the same product, an WP:ENGVAR issue at most, but even there it's not really as the term "Swiss cheese" is used synonymously in other English varieties too. oknazevad (talk) 21:16, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

Here we go again! In the EU countries you mention (plus for now the UK) "Swiss" (like "Parmesan") is a protected term. Whether they are different cheeses is questionable too. Johnbod (talk) 02:21, 11 May 2022 (UTC)

Missed my point. Again. They're called Emmentaler in the EU, but Swiss elsewhere. And not just the US. That's the point. The term "Swiss cheese" is used to describe Emmentaler sysnonomlusly in many ENGVARs, despite your insistence that somehow that's wrong. I mile is is descriptive, not prescriptive. oknazevad (talk) 04:42, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, the disam page covers that fine. Americans can call their cheese whatever they like, hence the title of this page. I'd rather dispute that what "Swiss cheese" means outside Europe actually is specifically Emmentaler, which surely is sold seperately under that name. But I think we've all discussed this enough. Johnbod (talk) 11:09, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

The point is it's not just Americans and it's not American cheese. It's Swiss cheese, also known as Emmentaler, produced and eaten in many parts of the world under one name or the other. People in most parts of the world know what it means, even where there may be laws prescribing how it's labelled. Station1 (talk) 21:10, 12 May 2022 (UTC)

Lap 56. In most of Europe (including Switzerland), unspecified "Swiss cheese" probably means Gruyere cheese. Johnbod (talk) 03:45, 13 May 2022 (UTC)

The European sources I've seen, such as those above, all use "Swiss cheese" metaphorically to describe something with lots of big holes. Station1 (talk) 10:20, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Oh, yes, that's the metaphorical use, adopted from American English. But when it comes to actual cheese Gruyere is more often the default - see that article. See also this discussion, where I see you turned up, trying to tell the Italians they'd got it all wrong! Johnbod (talk) 13:47, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

So if one says to a European something is Swiss cheese they think you mean Gruyere but if one says something is like Swiss cheese they think you mean Emmentaler? Station1 (talk) 21:36, 15 May 2022 (UTC)

Well, sometimes, yes. The world's a funny place. Of course Gruyere used to have holes, apparently as about many as the Emmentaler of the day. Johnbod (talk) 03:06, 16 May 2022 (UTC)

Rephrase sentence

Before: A hypothesis proposed by Swiss researchers in 2015 notes that particulate matter may also play a role in the holes' development and that modern sanitation eliminated debris such as hay dust in the milk played a role in reduced hole size in Swiss cheeses

After: A hypothesis proposed by Swiss researchers in 2015 notes that particulate matter may also play a role in the holes' development and that modern sanitation, which eliminated debris such as hay dust in the milk, played a role in reduced hole size in Swiss cheeses

Basically turn "eliminated debris such as hay dust in the milk" into a clause separated by commas. I think it improves the readability, no meaning is changed.

Xylarr (talk) 03:12, 7 November 2023 (UTC)

Sounds better, thanks. Johnbod (talk) 03:38, 7 November 2023 (UTC)