Talk:Springhill massacre

POV Check

Article seems to provide a biased view of the British military. For example, "the army was more inclined to target republicans than unionists".   bsmithme  05:19, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

the army being inclined to target republicans rather than unionist is an obvious fact that has been agknowledged by british soldiers themselves ! PALESTINE1234 —Preceding unsigned comment added by PALESTINE1234 (talk • contribs) 16:34, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

I'm sure that you are not incorrect; however, I am not sure that that makes it acceptable for an encyclopedia. That being said, I'm fine with removing the pov-check if nobody else objects. --  bsmithme  20:50, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

I understand your opinion but i believe that encyclopedias should truthfully describe events. Sometimes the truth seems bias.--PALESTINE1234 (talk) 12:51, 16 July 2009 (UTC)

If not sourced by reliable and verifiable sources then personal opinion and original research is not permitted. Mabuska ^(talk) 13:09, 29 November 2011 (UTC)

Death account

I've cut and pasted the following recent addition to the article. Firstly it's entirely uncited and is quite possibly a personal commentary on the issue. Also it is in serious need of copy-editing and condensation to make it more readable and appropriate.

The account Of Margaret Gargen's Murder

Nellie Gargan, Margaret’s mother, interviewed in the booklet described her child and the circumstances of her death.

‘My daughter Margaret was one of two twins. Her other sister was called Bernadette. It was Bernadette who seemed to find herself in the midst of the troubles, not Margaret. When there was trouble Margaret always wanted to go home. That's what happened that night. She was 13 when she was murdered. She would not have been 14 until that September, only a little child really. She was the type who loved to wear trousers. She just didn't like frocks or dresses. Even when she went to school she used to change out of her uniform in the toilets so she would not have to walk home in a skirt. She was well thought of in school and it was the Head Sister who sent the only photo I have of her.

Her whole life centred around the Community Centre where her father worked running the bingo. Margaret helped in the Centre by running the sweetie shop, she wouldn't let you off with a penny even me.

On the day of the shooting she was down working in the Centre. She came in that night and asked me if I was going out but I said no. She asked why didn't I go round to St John's with Mary McGarry. I told her I had no money. She gave me a pound so Mary and me went round to St John's. Bernadette and Colette Tate were minding the kids. We were sitting in St John's having two bottles of Tuborg Gold and Tommy Best came in and said to me, Nelly you better get home. There is shooting in your street. Tommy Best had to bring us down along the hedges to get us onto the Whiterock Road where bullets were flying down past St John's. When I got down into the Whiterock the furthest I could get to was our Peggy's in Whiterock Crescent and when I went to go up the street the shooting was terrible so I had to turn back again. Eventually we got the kids round to our house then Harry came in and said Margaret had been shot. He said, I don't think she's bad, but I knew she was dead. He didn't have to tell me she was dead. I said, you're a liar, she's dead.

One of Margaret’s young girl friends chatting to her at the time she was shot also described the shooting. ‘We were only sitting talking you know the way wee girls talk about things. Next thing she fell down. We never heard the shot. Within a couple of seconds she was lying on the ground. It all happened so quickly. Then everybody started to scream. Then we got pulled inside. The shooting continued and it was a while before Margaret’s body got pulled in.’

Mrs Gargan said after they were told of her daughter’s death they went to a friend’s home in the area and stayed there for the night. ‘When they went to bring the bodies up the street that night’ she said ‘the men that drove the hearses refused to drive them up so two men in the Whiterock went down and drove them up. There were two coffins, Margaret's and Paddy Butler's. The funny part was while she lay in the house, if a woman came into the house there was no shooting but if a man came in the shooting would start again. That shooting went on for three days from the 9th July to 12th July non-stop.

An inquest into Margaret death and the four others killed that evening was held in July 1973.

Most of the soldiers involved in the shootings did not attend the hearing. A military representative read out all their statements, the soldiers being identified only by a letter of the alphabet. It was revealed that seven soldiers had been involved in the shootings, all claimed they fired on gunmen, however despite it being a clear bright evening not one of the soldiers could identify any other feature about the gunmen other than they were carrying a weapons. All the soldiers emphasised in their statements they had not seen nor shot at any priest.

Over a dozen civilian witnesses also give evidence at the hearing disputing the soldiers’ version of events. All stated it was the British soldiers situated on the roof of the a timber yard over looking Westrock Drive who had opened fire without warning, and that there had been no shooting in area beforehand.

Although civilian witnesses attended the inquest and refuted the soldiers’ statements, several important witnesses, including some of those wounded, were not called to give evidence.

Forensic evidence revealed that none of those killed had been in contact with firearms.

An RUC detective admitted to the hearing that there had been no investigations into the killing, citing the area as too dangerous to carry this out.

The jury returned an Open Verdict. No British soldier was ever charged in connection with the killing of Margaret Gargan, or any of the other killings that day. Sadly on 27 April 1992, Nellie Gargan, her mother died before her daughter's vindication.

Mabuska ^(talk) 16:09, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Michael Norman

There are two issues with the section on Mr Norman. Firstly there is no suggestion that he was involved with the Springhill events. If he wasn't, then he should not be mentioned here. If he was, that should be stated. Secondly, after he was shot (presumably fatally, though that it not stated), he cannot have "later told colleagues at Sandhurst, where he was an instructor", etc.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:19, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

Snipers

Journalists have a nasty tendency to call all riflemen snipers. Is there any evidence that the soldiers here were snipers - using sniper rifles - or soldiers with SLR's?Royalcourtier (talk) 05:24, 6 January 2016 (UTC)

A section with a lot of loaded text based on one dubious source: bobsmithwalker.blogspot.co.uk

<!-- ==Impact== {{onesource|section}} In May 2005, Michael Norman, a former [[Coldstream Guards]]man and [[Special Air Service]] trooper, was found shot in the stomach in his car in London, with photographs of certain incidents in which he had been involved. Previously, he had told colleagues at [[Royal Military Academy Sandhurst|Sandhurst]], where he was an instructor, that he was on an IRA hit list. His ex-wife said she did not believe Norman committed suicide, but added that he never told her that he believed he was on an IRA [hit] list.<ref>{{cite web|url=http://www.thefreelibrary.com/IRA+LINK+TO+DEAD+SAS+MAN%3B+Special+Forces+soldier+was+top+of...-a0132223007|title=IRA LINK TO DEAD SAS MAN; Special Forces soldier was top of Republican hit list|website=Thefreelibrary.com|accessdate=2 December 2015}}</ref> On Sunday 13 March 2016, the publisher of the book [http://bobsmithwalker.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/a-legalised-death-squad-killing-for.html '''''Killing For Britain'''''] alleged on his blog that Mike Norman was the military contact named "Mike" who was a central character in the KFB book.<blockquote>''Post publication we believe we found "Mike" ... Warrant Officer Michael Norman was a sniper of exceptionally high skill to the point that he ended up a sniper instructor at Warminster. He had served in Ireland during the period covered in the book. He was 62 years old in 2005, making him late 20s early 30s in the early 1970s. From North East England, he’d spent time in Ireland as a child where his family had land in Roscommon (according to his ex-wife). He'd joined the Coldstream Guards, as other Geordies had done. Michael Norman was an anonymous witness called by the Bloody Sunday Enquiry, surely only because he was there on that fateful day.''</blockquote> <blockquote>''Michael Norman had in his possession photographs relating to the Springhill Massacre when he was found shot dead in his car not far from a police station in [[Hounslow]] in April 2005, around 6-8 months after he’d met the author in [[Ayrshire|Ayr]], Scotland, in an effort to dissuade him from writing his book. Detectives initially suspected foul play (a so-called IRA "revenge squad" being suspected). Scotland Yard took over the investigation, reportedly "due to the sensitive nature" of Mike Norman's "work in Ireland". His death was eventually ruled suicide ... Initial reports stated that a 9mm pistol was found in the car when the body was discovered. However, a police source told us in 2010 that the weapon was actually a shotgun which had been registered to Mike Norman and that he’d shot himself in the stomach. The same source stated that there had been NO photos of the Springhill Massacre in the car at the time, contrary to initial reports on the public record. The source added that Norman had become a quite unstable in later life. It seemed this source might be trying to discredit Norman."''<ref>[http://bobsmithwalker.blogspot.co.uk/2016/03/a-legalised-death-squad-killing-for.html Legalised death squad killing for Britain], bobsmithwalker.blogspot.co.uk, March 2016; accessed 29 August 2017.</ref></blockquote> NOTE: ONLY SOURCE FOR THIS ENTIRE SECTION IS bobsmithwalker.blogspot.co.uk -- SEE TALK PAGE--> Quis separabit? 04:08, 30 August 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 20 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved ErikHaugen (talk | contribs) 16:52, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

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Springhill Massacre → Springhill massacre – Massacre isn't a proper noun, so it shouldn't have a capital letter Jim Michael (talk) 14:46, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

• Weak oppose: "Massacre" is not a proper noun, but "Springhill Massacre" is a proper noun – it is the name of one specific massacre. I note that Boston Massacre and Mountain Meadows Massacre also capitalize the word in the title, and there are various analogous cases such as Pine Tar Incident (which had an RM about the same issue in 2012). I recall several previous RM discussions of similar cases; the outcome was not always the same – for example, for the 2010 RM for Gulf of Tonkin incident. In that instance, a survey of reliable sources was Google Book search results and a lack of objections were identified as the rationale for lowercase. —BarrelProof (talk) 16:41, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
  • After thinking about it a bit more, I dislike the outcome of the RM for Gulf of Tonkin incident. That is the name of a specific incident, so I believe it is a proper noun, and therefore incident should start with a capital letter. —BarrelProof (talk) 18:10, 20 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment I think we need to find some reliable sources that refer to this incident as a lot of these articles have POV names put out by one side. Mabuska ^(talk) 16:48, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Calling the killing of 5 people a massacre isn't usual. Some of the people who were shot in this incident were civilians who were caught in the crossfire but some chose to be members of organisations which attacked the British Army. These shootings occurred as part of the Battle of Lenadoon. Jim Michael (talk) 13:11, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Utterly wrong, they weren't part of the Battle of Lenadoon. Just because TommySocialist or one of his previous accounts amended an article to say something doesn't make it so, especially in the absence of a reference. Springhill is nowhere near Lenadoon, that they were part of the same incident is another fantasy addition trying to lump every single shooting in Belfast into a single article. FDW777 (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

The lead & ibox of Battle of Lenadoon say that it included violence in other parts of Belfast, not only that which occurred in & around Lenadoon Avenue. The ibox lists the SM as one of the results of the battle. If that's untrue, that article needs substantial changes. Jim Michael (talk) 19:56, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• Weakly oppose per BarrelProof. This is one of those gray areas where neither necessarily would be unacceptable. Wars and revolutions aren't proper nouns, and yet we have American Civil War and French Revolution because that is what they are usually called in sources. In this case, sources seem to lean towards the current title. Mabuska raises a separate point that is probably worth considering but I do not have a view on yet.--Yaksar (let's chat) 22:24, 20 July 2020 (UTC)

Wars in most cases have words beginning with a capital letter, but most of our articles about massacres (& bombings, ambushes etc.) don't. See Category:Massacres in Northern Ireland. Jim Michael (talk) 13:11, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

That's an interesting observation – that category has five "massacre" articles and only one "Massacre". Consistency is desirable. —BarrelProof (talk) 19:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose As others have stated, Springhill Massacre is a proper noun. FDW777 (talk) 16:44, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Do you say the same about our other articles which have massacre in their titles, most of which don't have a capital M? Jim Michael (talk) 19:56, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• If "Massacre" in general isn't a proper noun then we wouldn't have titles like Bottle Island and Welland River. Its because this is a specific massacre rather than an article about massacre(s) in general that it might be capitalized, Gulf of Tonkin incident had a RM in 2010 with no input so a new RM could probably happen then. Britannica suggests this is normal for example "Mountain Meadows Massacre" is titled as such even though the "massacre" is lower case in the URL unlike the "Mountain" and "Meadow". Crouch, Swale (talk) 20:07, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Encyclopædia Britannica aren't consistent either. Their Munich massacre article has - like ours - a lower-case m. However, it has a capital M in its URL: [1]. Jim Michael (talk) 20:21, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support as there are enough books with lowercase "massacre" on this one to show that caps are optional, that is, that it does not meet the threshold in MOS:CAPS are WP:NCCAPS. Dicklyon (talk) 01:20, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• OpposeAs said before by others, Springhill Massacre is a proper noun. The Banner talk 19:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Do you say the same about all WP articles which include massacre, bombing, attack, ambush, shooting etc. in their titles? The large majority of them don't have those words capitalised. Jim Michael (talk) 19:09, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

See: Peterloo Massacre, Dundas Riots, Chuka Massacre, British Pet Massacre, Allerton Bywater Colliery Explosion, Sheffield Outrages, Knockshinnoch Disaster, Rudel Scandal, Lavon Affair, Halifax Explosion, Bear River Massacre, My Lai Massacre and so on and on. The Banner talk 19:37, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

But, as I said, the large majority of WP articles with such words in their titles have them in lower case. We should be consistent. Jim Michael (talk) 20:08, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

Some in that list are capped because they're usually capped in sources. Others are just examples of over-capitalization that we haven't yet noticed and fixed. Anyone can help. Dicklyon (talk) 15:51, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support—plenty of reliable sources don't downcase the m. So MOSCAPS prevails. Tony (talk) 03:29, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support The name of an event such as this is not a proper name (proper noun phrase). A proper name is (usually) not descriptive and not preceded by the definite article. This is both (see lead: The Springhill Massacre was ...). It is unfortunate that WP equates capitalisation with being a proper noun when they are not equivalent and there are other reasons for capitalisation. Such a title may be capitalised 'in full' for emphasis or distinction. MOS:SIGNIFCAPS discourages WP editors from this practice. However, such capitalised phrases can enter into the "collective conciousness" - eg French Revolution. The first issue is that there are very few independent reliable sources on the subject - far too few to assert that the capitalised phrase has entered the "collective cociousness". An n-gram search returns no hits for the phase (regardless of capitalisation). A simple google seach consists mainly of unreliable sources and is of little value. Most Google Scholar hits cannot be accessed to evaluate context. Google Books returns (for me) 10 English language hits, of which two acknowledge they are sourced from WP and are therefore, not reliable. One is written by Gerry Adams and arguably not independent. Three sources use the phrase in citing the title of a work. One uses it in headings only and one uses it in quote marks (ie scare quotes). This leaves only two sources that might indicate how it might be capitalised and they are divided on the matter. Per MOS:CAPS and WP:NCCAPS: only words and phrases that are consistently capitalized in a substantial majority of independent, reliable sources are capitalized in Wikipedia. The evidence does not support capitalisation of "massacre". Regards, Cinderella157 (talk) 10:41, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support per Dicklyon and Cinderella257. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 12:22, 29 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support per WP:CONSITENT policy; see List of massacres in Ireland. The only other inconsistent article in the whole list is Dursey Massacre, which should be moved next. The sources on this use a variety of terms for this event, and even when they use "Springhill [m|M]assacre", it may be lower case. I even saw a Republic of [not Northern] Ireland major source, RTÉ News, refer to it as "the so-called 'Springhill massacre'" (we're using this source in the article already). So, there is clearly no proper name "Springhill Massacre" here, or most if not all sources would use that phrase and capitalized exactly that way. PS: There are likely to be more cases to clean up, e.g. findable at pages like List of massacres in Britain. However, when going down the Irish list, I found that someone had pipe-linked the names of about 80% of the entries to hide the policy- and guideline-compliant actual names of the articles and instead insert a PoV-pushing and capitalized "Massacre" that was not supported by a preponderance of the sources. So, clean up the lists first, and few actual "Foo Massacre" over-capitalized examples remain. There are some "Siege of ...", etc., military engagement articles in these lists that will generally start with capital letters as article titles, but which usually should not be capitalized this way in mid-sentence, so some article text will need cleanup, too. Just over the last year, I have seen multiple RMs and other discussions concluding against WP:MILHIST's old preference for excessively capitalizing anything with a military connection, but not much cleanup work has been done since then.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  13:58, 30 July 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Description of David McCafferty

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