Talk:Sodium bicarbonate/Archive 1

Archive 1

Comments

The article text seems to disagree with the summary table on the decomposition temperature of this compound. Article states 60degC whilst table says 300. Can someone clear this up? Drw25 16:35, 13 Mar 2005 (UTC)

In my chemistry class we did an experiment involving this. I believe that it is 60 degrees celsius. We placed it in a beaker of hot water as part of the experiment and it melted. The water was not boiling, so it was less that 100 degrees celsius.

No no, it dissolved at much less than 100°C, but as to the decomposition...see below. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 23:58, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Correction--it could have _melted_, but not in a water bath. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 00:00, 2 June 2006 (UTC)

Error in image

I removed the erroneous image from the table. Not only was it poorly drawn, it also showed a covalent bond between sodium and oxygen. This could mislead beginners in chemistry. Walkerma 05:10, 11 May 2005 (UTC)

Confusing wording

What does "to help water down taste" mean? —Preceding unsigned comment added by JHarris (talk • contribs)

When you down it. It helps the water taste like water.

Edit: No it helps "water" down the taste. Water in this instance means to make the substance less flavorful, ie tasting like water...

It's a compound verb: "to water down." It should mean, "to dilute." In other words, you add water to something to dilute it.

Things besides water may be added to dilute solutions (saline solutions etc.). Dilution is not so much "to add water to" as it is "to decrease the concentration of" Jvbishop 13:05, 30 March 2007 (UTC)

Why Bicarbonate?

Why is it called sodium bicarbonate when there are no two's in the formula anywhere? My chem professor just started teaching inorganic nomenclature and he doesn't even know. The Ungovernable Force 05:02, 17 February 2006 (UTC)

The article for bicarbonate states "A Bicarbonate or, more properly, a hydrogen carbonate is a polyatomic ion whose formula is HCO₃." and "Bicarbonates are more correctly named hydrogen carbonates in the chemical nomenclature system." PrometheusX303 15:01, 1 March 2006 (UTC)

In older days, the prefix bi (when used in chemistry) meant hydrogen, not the number 2 as it usually means. So by this older style of nomenclature, sodium bicarbonate = Na[sodium] H[bi] CO₃[carbonate]. 220.235.240.56 14:03, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

I never heard of this... always thought it came in analogy (in a way erroneously) from the higher oxidized metals: CaCO₃ = calcium carbonate, Ca(HCO₃)₂ = calcium bicarbonate. Mattert 14:53, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Nomenclature

The prefix bi is very common when referring to acid salts in the older nomenclature; sodium bicarbonate is sodium hydrogen carbonate, sodium bisulfate is sodium hydrogen sulphate and ammonium bifluoride is ammonium hydrogen fluoride.

Socksysquirrel 00:04, 29 April 2007 (UTC)

I think that the title of the article should be changed to Sodium hydrogen carbonate, since that is the more correct name. Owen214 03:17, 6 November 2006 (UTC)

That's very nice and all, but your opinion is worthless.

It's called "sodium bicarbonate" because that's what it's called. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.202.176.5 (talk) 08:26, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

I read that it's called "bi" because the HCO₃^- molecyle has the ability to react both as acid and base (an ampholyte) Teol 18:38, 3 March 2007

My understanding had always been that the "bi" prefix was used to distinguish different carbonates and this terminology had been introduced at a time in the distant past when the structures of chemical compounds were not well understood. The use of the "bi" prefix has persisted, but is misleading since it implies the presence of two carbonate groups when there is only one, and the modern term "hydrogen carbonate" is far more appropriate. The section on chemistry should at least refer to the salt as "sodium hydrogen carbonate" as this is the term customarily used in this field, but greater use of this name in other sections would also be welcome.--98.185.230.111 (talk) 04:32, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

As mentioned proper IUPAC name would be sodium carbonate (not bi or hydrogen in it). This isn't first chemical that the name differs from the chemical name and is confusing.129.22.208.240 (talk) 18:13, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Nasty

Add to hair if it's dirty and there's no time to wash it. Dry with warm air.

Who wrote this?

This is a known use. I've seen mentions of it in over a dozen camping, outdoor living and survival books. I think it's even listed in an 80s edition of the Boy Scout Handbook. Once, when I was camping in an arid region for two weeks, I did it myself. It doesn't clean your hair, but it makes it a heck of a lot less greasy. Supposedly the baking soda adsorbs oil and skin flakes from the hair and scalp. When you shake or brush it out, the baking soda falls out, with the oil and skin cells attached. Unless your hair's wet, most of it falls out. Now, with that said, this use isn't THAT common, so I think whoever added this tip was thinking of another use: While washing your hair (with water) you rub a paste of baking soda into your scalp to remove dandruff as an alternative to coal tar or pyridine zinc, I think it is. This is a much more common use. 68.119.223.51 09:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Decomposition of Sodium Bicarbonate

In my AP Chemistry class, we have learned that the decomposition of such a compound will produce three products: The metal oxide (NaO), carbon dioxide gas (CO2), and gaseous water (H20); however, this article states that NaHCO3 will decompose into NaCO3, liquid water, and carbon dioxide gas.

How is this discrepancy explained? ...The only problem I see is that the article states that this decomposition will take place at 60 degrees Centigrade, and water will not boil at that low of a temperature. Am I to assume that the method we have learned in class assumes the reaction is taking place at a higher temperature that will not only boil the water but also decompose the Sodium Carbonate as well into its constituent elements of Sodium Oxide and Carbon Dioxide?

--Matthew Wilson 15:11, 12 March 2006 (UTC)

I think it really depends on how you decompose it. I know that adding NaO to water and mixing in CO₂ will give you NaHCO₃, but I dunno how to go backwards. I don't think the article as it stands is correct. I'll need to do some research before changing it, though. --M1ss1ontomars2k4 ^{(T | C | @)} 23:56, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

This is explained by NaCO3 -> NaO + CO2, further breakdown depending on conditions.

--User:algolo 23:21, 19 September 2006

check out this msds (specially melting point) it´s in spanish but i think you can manage it

http://chemdat.merck.de/documents/sds/emd/esp/es/1063/106329.pdf

Not all carbonates decompose on melting to form metal oxides. The Alkali Metal Carbonates simply melt on heating which is quite useful in chemistry. According to the German Wikipedia article Na2CO3 melts at 853 °C where it is quite stable. A decomposition at very very hight temperatures was frequently discussed (and is maybe somewhat likely), however I'd say you need some 2000 °C for this. Didn't try, found no trustworthy source. However, NaHCO3 easily decomposes to Na2CO3, Water and Carbon Dioxide. Vytas, 155.56.68.220 09:39, 27 February 2007 (UTC)

The table image.

If someone could make a new image it would be much appreciated, this one looks terrible when its enlarged. Ryan Jones 12:40, 8 April 2006 (UTC)

Done. Jesse 06:01, 8 July 2006 (UTC)

I stuck the pH in the article... why isn't pH in the table? I've noticed its lack in other chemicals... but the reason I came to this article was to find out the difference in alkine between baking soda and washing soda. I'd rather the pH wasn't in the middle of the article but rather in the table, since it's an important property and non-chemists won't look at the formula and be able to deduce it. (Gaviidae) 82.93.133.130 15:17, 2 January 2007 (UTC)

Added citation

Found this: After absorption the alkali carbonates increase the alkalinity of the tissues, and there is an increased excretion of urine, which is rendered less acid. The carbonates are largely employed in medicine with the object of retaining uric acid in solution in the urinary passages; they are of no value for dissolving uric acid already precipitated, but they form a means of preventing further precipitation.[1], dunno if it should be in the article but added the link for the ambiguous "cleans the kidneys" line. Gaviidae 11:06, 29 June 2006 (UTC)

Heck, at least half of the Uses section should go altogether. Baking soda may have "over a hundred uses", but this article isn't a how-to guide, we don't need to list them all. At least, the established industrial uses with encyclopedic verifiability should be kept strictly separate, and the folk medicine and household witchcraft get their own section, if any. Femto 12:01, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This is Just a Stub

Why don't some of you chemists out there tell us how Baking Soda/sodium bicoarbonate is made, where it comes from, who discovered it? Duh! Scott Adler 22:45, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

We will - but there are a lot of pages to write, and only a few busy chemists....! Walkerma 00:35, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Wheres the carbon?

Where is the carbon in the bond diagram of the molecule???--Light current 17:40, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

For some reason the person drew this in line-angle formula style, which is the default in most molecule editors. Normally it's just used for organic compounds. The carbon is at the junction of the lines. I'll try to put something better up when I get a few minutes. Thanks, Walkerma 00:37, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Im not a chemist but thanks--Light current 04:43, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

The carbon just magically appeared! Walkerma 05:16, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Naming

Should this article be moved to Sodium hydrogen carbonate, with Sodium Bicarbonate as a redirect? After all, the bi- prefix is now depriciated, and SHC is the only name I've seen in scientific/engineering contexts. Admittedly, Bicarb is the more commonly known name, but most other chemical articles (Acetic acid, sulfuric acid, aluminium oxide) use the IUPAC recommended name. I'd also like to see the other bicarbonates (Potassium bicarbonate, Calcium bicarbonate, Ammonium bicarbonate) move accordingly ideally. Laïka 14:55, 16 October 2006 (UTC)

Baking soda

Isn't this substance used to make crack cocaine? mirageinred 23:08, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

Yes, not having made it though. My understanding is that cocaine is provided as a hydrochloride salt, meaning that it is acidic and not very volatile. Treatment with bicarb converts the hydrochloride to "free base", which is volatile (like a most smallish organic compounds).--Smokefoot 23:27, 20 October 2006 (UTC)

It makes it freebase, which is smokeable, but the hydrochloride is not that acidic and is snortable. for pure freebase you need to dissolve it in ether and siphon off the other shit then evaporate the ether (don't make crack it screws you up). —Preceding unsigned comment added by The Right Honourable (talk • contribs) 00:20, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Advice sought: What to do with long list of domestic uses (and legends)?

WE-Chem needs to think about how to proceed with this article. Probably others have dealt with similar issues on comparable pages. This article is evolving from an encyclopedia article into a "laundry list" of advice and lore. We could:

• 1) contract all the domestic uses, summarizing with the statement that "NaHCO3 has many domestic uses in cleaning and cooking."
• 2) start a page on "Domestic uses of sodium bicarbonate." and dump all the stuff there.
• 3) try to prune these entries as they come in.

Overall, few of the domestic claims could be verify/documented. And even if they could, such applications might seem peripheral to the article. Although I am inclined toward option 1, other voices should be heard. --Smokefoot 18:38, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

I feel like option 2 .. if the domestic uses article does not get much positive attention, one could think about an AfD, or maybe, even do that directly. The NaCl article has quite a nice solution, I think. --Dirk Beetstra ^{T C} 18:51, 22 October 2006 (UTC)

It probably doesn't help the situation any, but I added a "Disputed" tag to that section. It really bothers me to see a lot of unsupported old wives tales there. Although many of the things there may be true, they aren't backed up by anything. I feel a fair number of those uses should be there, but they really need to be backed up by documentation. Even despite [[2]], I've heard that using it in the fridge is of little use, for instance. --Mdwyer 19:58, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I think Smokefoot's suggestion above is a good one - we should do all of the above. This is rather like trivia/mentions in pop songs or films/famous people from X sections - they tend to grow out of all proportion to their importance (see Steve Biko for an example). I will commit to working on this article over the Christmas break, and I will spin most of them off into a separate article which will demand a citation for every claim. I have a couple of books which I can cite for at least some of the uses, that will at least make the "domestic uses" page more encyclopedic. My main goal will make it easier to clear stuff from this page when people begin to add "It is used on poodles to keep their coats clean" etc. etc. Walkerma 03:13, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

Without any specific examples the disputed tag is highly disingenuous. --Belg4mit 23:56, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

Moving these claims elsewhere seems like overkill, and detracts from the page. First, this isn't that lengthy of an article. Second, do any of you REALLY think most people who navigate to this article are looking up the substance's history, production or chemical properties? I seriously doubt it. They're looking for these uses. Most of the domestic uses in this article are widely-known claims by the Arm & Hammer Company (a division of Church & Dwight) . Most of the claims in this article, are listed on their website. Yes, they may not be scientifically verified, but when you think about it, they probably never will be. If scientists stopped working on vaccines to study consumer baking soda benefits, people would get incredibly upset. Still, most of these claims have nearly 100 years of anecdotal evidence backing them up, thus they constitute generally accepted common knowledge. Why not just list the most common claims that are referenced on Arm & Hammer's web site in a domestic uses section at the bottom of the article? Then, simply put any unlisted/dubious uses in a subsection with citation needed tags? Moving useful info that is probably the main reason for visits to this article takes away from its usefulness, and makes it only useful to chemists and 6th-grade kids doing reports on acid-base reactions. 68.119.223.51 09:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting. I came to this page because I trust the anecdotal claims on the Arm and Hammer website not as far as I can throw one. As a cleaning agent in a laundry detergent, what interactions are there between baking soda and the dyes (or other colorants) used in textiles? Is it completely colour fast? Gets your whites, white. Gets your colours white. Gets your blacks white, too. Who knows? All the anecdotes I found focus on its cleaning power. MaxEnt 03:20, 29 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree that domestic uses are a common draw to this article, however, more I feel that more elaboration and citation is needed, hence a new article for said uses may be in order. I would specifically like to know the mechanism that allows bicarb to deodorize.

Air deodorization is supposedly through adsorption, however given the relatively small surface area of sodium bicarb as opposed to active carbon, it's not really that effective. For laundry deodorizing, it's also not really effective. It's most likely the detergent's action of breaking down organic compounds that does the job. 97.82.247.200 10:18, 21 September 2007 (UTC)

Ok on "adsorption", but why would Arm & Hammer design a box specifically with a mesh side to increase surface area, if there wasn't some utility. As for chemically having a small surface area, in a fridge, this isn't a chemical reaction that needs to take place at all quickly. What is the chemical process that removes odors? What odors does it remove? This material absolutely needs to be in the article, since cleaning and deodorizing are the second and third most common uses that most readers will be familiar with. Piano non troppo (talk) 21:21, 15 May 2009 (UTC)

They might design such a box simply because people will buy it, some because it looks convincing (as your comment seems to demonstate).--Ericjs (talk) 06:00, 13 February 2011 (UTC)

pH 8.3?

In the article you can read that NaHCO₃ is a salt with a pH of 8.3, leaving a reference to what seems like a rather unchemical article. A salt cannot have a pH in itself, only its solution in water can, and the actual pH value will then depend on the concentration. I'm not a chemist myself, but could it be that the author has mixed up pH with pK_a? Hymyly^T@C 16:04, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Is there someway that you would fix that? Remove the pH entirely? --Mdwyer 18:42, 4 February 2007 (UTC)

I'd say leave in the ph, but add a line for the pKa. Though it may be technically wrong, ph is still useful to students trying to understand where the item itself falls on the ph scale in relation to other chemicals of known ph. 97.82.254.213 21:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

--EatingSteak 18:42, 16 July 2007 (UTC)

I am a Chemical Engineer, albeit somewhat rusty at these particular mechanics. However, I do agree that a pKa would be more appropriate here (or should it be pKb?). Anyway, I have commonly seen pH values associated with salts and other compounds. While this might not be quite correct, it may refer to something obscure, like "the pH of a saturated solution of this substance", hence implying a minimum or maximum pH it can have, giving the number some sort of scientific meaning. If anyone can expand on that or back me up, then do so by all means.

Under the "Chemistry" section, the article says, "[sodium bicarbonate] has a pKa of 6.3 in water which causes aqueous solutions to be mildly alkaline." This is not true. The pKa of bicarbonate ion is around 10.25. I know this from experience, but it is also found on the carbonic acid page. The 6.3 number is the so-called "acidity constant of carbon dioxide." The pKa of carbonic acid is formally 3.60. Since carbonic acid is always in equilibrium with CO₂ and water, the pKa of carbonic acid in practice is 6.36. Regarding the other stuff about pH, it only makes sense to specify pH of a solution, since pH is a measure of H₃O⁺ concentration.12.219.209.243 (talk) 01:29, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Rxn with citric acid

I was hoping someone could help me with a question. In doing a simple experiment to show that lemon juice(citric acid) added to the sodium bicarbonate you get the same reaction of bubbling water as when you use vinegar(acetic acid). I understand now, chemically why this is but am missing 2 pieces to my puzzle.

1. what does the chemical reaction between the NaHCO3 and the C6H8O7  look like to show its by products?

2. I concluded that the reason the lemon juice(citric acid) seemed to actually work better was because the molecule contained More C, H, and O than the acetic acid does leading to the production of more water & CO2 as by products. Is this conclusion generally correct? I appreciate the help.Imnoxprt 12:44, 9 February 2007 (UTC)Imnoxprt

Citric acid is a polyprotic acid, meaning one molecule donates more then one hydronium ion (H+) to solution. Each molecule of citric acid contains three carboxyl groups (COOH) and can donate three hydronium ions. Acetic acid only contains one carboxyl group and can only donate one hydronium ion to solution. As a result three times the moles of acetic acid would be required to produce the same quanity of CO2 as citric acid. The overall reactions will cirtic acid would be:

3NaHCO3 + C6H8O7 --> 3H2CO3 + C6H5O7Na3 Where acetic acid would be: 3NaHCO3 + 3C2H4O2 --> 3H2CO3 + 3C2H3O7Na Carbonic acid (H2CO3)then produces CO2, which are the bubbles you see. H2CO3 --> H2O + CO2 --158.57.45.246 16:29, 23 February 2007 (UTC)

Hydronium is H₃O, not H+. Hydronium is only formed after the acid has donated the hydrogen ion to a water molecule. --70.127.201.86 02:02, 4 May 2007 (UTC)

Air freshener

According to this video: [3], you can put 1/4 cup of baking soda in a spray bottle, fill it with water and use it as an air freshener. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Contralya (talk • contribs) 18:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Athletic use

"Energy production via anaerobic glycolysis, which is particularly important for events lasting between 30 seconds and 15 minutes, increases the acidity inside the muscle cells and very soon after does the same to the blood. It is this increase in acidity, within the muscle cells, that is a major factor in producing fatigue. If there was some way to reduce the acidity within the muscle cells, one could theoretically delay fatigue and thus continue exercising at a very high intensity for longer.

Sodium bicarbonate is an alkalising agent and therefore reduces the acidity of the blood (known as a buffering action). By buffering acidity in the blood, bicarbonate may be able to draw more of the acid produced within the muscle cells out into the blood and thus reduce the level of acidity within the muscle cells themselves. This could delay the onset of fatigue." http://www.brianmac.co.uk/lactic.htm —Preceding unsigned comment added by 63.193.144.79 (talk) 06:39, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Why imply this is just theory when it is a proven practice?

Why are side effects only mentioned in this section and without any reference to typical overdose quantity? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Torave (talk • contribs) 16:04, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Using pubmed, a simple search of "bicarbonate excerise" will pull up about 30+ papers showing no performance increase when individuals were injected or ate bicarbonate. Some how all these papers get over-shodowed by the 2 papers where they did, despite being very poorly performed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.22.208.240 (talk) 18:16, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Chlorine in aquariums?

The article says: "Sodium bicarbonate can be added as a simple solution for raising the pH balance of water that has a high level of chlorine, such as in swimming pools and aquariums."

Would aquariums have high levels of chlorine? Wouldn't that kill the fish? Swimming pools often have high levels of chlorine, but aquariums tend to try to keep their chlorine levels around zero. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 220.253.197.179 (talk) 05:56, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Re: Medical Usages

Why no mention of use on insert bites: http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/first-aid-insect-bites/FA00046 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.164.14.163 (talk) 05:01, 30 August 2008 (UTC) One way is taken internally to assist opening the sphincter of oddi while doing gallbladder flushes — Preceding unsigned comment added by 166.137.11.199 (talk) 18:46, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

acid disassociation constant

The value of pK_a was recently edited from 6.3 to 9.

I've tried, unsuccessfully, to confirm, one or the other of these values. 6.33 is given as the acid disassociation constant for carbonic acid; it is not obvious to me that the value for sodium bicarbonate would be the same. Lavateraguy (talk) 09:34, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

pesticide

I read that if you mix it with sugar, and leave it sitting out, it will draw bugs in, and kill them. Thangfries (talk) 03:35, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

Emetic?

Is baking soda an emetic? Have read that it is.--DnivyØ (talk) 22:02, 20 December 2008 (UTC)

How much energy?

Can anybody tell me how much energy it takes to produce a kg of baking soda? And how do most companies generate that energy?

Thanks!

Joseph —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.232.239.172 (talk) 01:03, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Mohs Scale hardness of 2.4

Sodium Bicarbonate has a Mohs Scale hardness of 2.4. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Lasermike026 (talk • contribs) 15:30, 21 August 2009 (UTC)

Remedy for Gout

Sodium bicarbonate (baking soda) is a traditional remedy,[63] thought to work by raising blood pH (lowering blood acidity). However, the added sodium may be inappropriate for some people. Gout - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (9 November 2009)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gout  —Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.232.211.136 (talk) 03:04, 10 November 2009 (UTC) 

pKa

I noticed this when looking into something from the RD. I thought someone else would comment on it but no one has so I might as well mention it. Is this correct [4] "pKa for bicarbonate <-> carbonic acid reaction is 6.4 The pKa for bicarbonate <-> carbonate reaction is 10.3". From what I've seen from searching and the fact that it is amphoteric and my weak memory of chemistry it may be correct but I'm not particularly sure. Nil Einne (talk) 10:30, 11 December 2009 (UTC)

Toothpaste

Use of a paste of sodium bicarbonate and hydrogen peroxide as a toothpaste substitute may be very damaging to the teeth. It size of the grains is too large and it abrades tooth enamel. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 118.208.17.45 (talk) 08:58, 9 January 2010 (UTC)

Useful for experimenting and not very dangerous

I erased the line from the introduction: "it is useful for experimenting and not very dangerous."

This is just nonsense that has nothing to do with the definition of this substance. A potato is also useful for experimenting and not very dangerous. So is a housecat. But it really has no purpose being mentioned in an encyclopedic entry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.100.188.7 (talk) 23:04, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

WP:RS for absorbing odors

The present citation for how baking soda absorbs odors links to Answerbag, which fails WP:RS —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.85.196.138 (talk) 08:16, 29 September 2010 (UTC)

Abrasive

Is there a scientific way to quantify how abrasive baking soda is? Please add such facts to the article.-96.237.10.27 (talk) 17:23, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

This question belongs in Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science, but look at abrasive. --Plasmic Physics (talk) 04:37, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

Aluminum-free - straw man?

I came here trying to find out if the whole "aluminum-free baking soda" thing is a straw man argument - is it like saying "unicorn-free beef?" There's nothing in here about this and I think there should be, since the companies that sell the aluminum-free stuff charge maybe 5 or 6 times the price for their product. This also links into the "does aluminum cause Alzheimer's/does Alzheimer's cause aluminum buildup" question. Molasseskat (talk) 01:27, 25 March 2011 (UTC)

The relevance here , is in contrast to "baking powder", also used to make bread and cakes "rise", and which does contain aluminum.Eregli bob (talk) 14:26, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Additional medical use

Could be somewhat obscure, but sodium bicarb solution has been added by some surgeons/doctors to local anesthetic agents such as lidocaine and bupivicaine prior to injection (local infiltration or nerve block) in order to reduce pain associated with the injection. There are a number of papers showing its effectiveness dating back to the 1980s. I haven't worked in surgery for 10 years but it wasn't all that common in the 1990s, at least not where I worked (some practices can be quite regional). Out of 50+ surgeons that I worked with over the years, perhaps five or six of them used sodium bicarb in local anesthetic for this purpose. At least one surgeon I worked with stated there was some evidence that it also increased the duration of action and/or enhances (potency) of local anesthetics. There are some recent papers on it as well. Not sure if this means the practice is increasing or gaining acceptance, or what (since I haven't worked in surgery for years now). e.g. (sorry for not using proper citation)

http://www.anesthesia-analgesia.org/content/66/6/572.short

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12656792

"Textbook of Pediatric Emergency Procedures" By Christopher King, Fred M. Henretig, Brent R. King --Brewster1971 (talk) 07:17, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Aluminium Free

I am confused about this "Aluminum Free", some companies are marketing it as such. (http://www.bobsredmill.com/baking-soda.html)

here i find a quote "All baking soda is aluminum free or it wouldn't be sodium bicarbonate." http://www.welltellme.com/discuss/index.php?topic=14397.0 ,

here they discuss it, http://joyfulpublicspeaking.blogspot.com/2011/03/marketing-what-isnt-there-aluminum-free.html

Can anyon comment on this?

thanks James Michael DuPont (talk) 13:34, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Possibly meaning, uncontaminated by aluminium. Plasmic Physics (talk) 21:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

See "baking powder", a product which people add to flour etc to make bread and cake dough rise, which does contain aluminum. For people concerned about the alleged link between aluminum and alzheimer's disease, "baking soda" ( sodium bicarbonate ) is considered to be a safer alternative to "baking powder", although baking soda is not so effective or convenient to use.Eregli bob (talk) 14:29, 27 July 2012 (UTC)

Just like cholesterol-free peanut butter. All plant foods are cholesterol-free. Bob's Red Mill is not comparing its Baking Soda to other Baking Sodas. It is comparing its Baking Soda to all leavening agents.CountMacula (talk) 02:56, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

rerate

i think better than 'start' — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.189.170.229 (talk) 14:51, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

pKb

Wouldn't it be more convenient to give the pKb of bicarbonate, rather than the pKa of carbonic acid? I was trying to compare the strength of various bases, and I had to remember too much chemistry to calculate the pKb from the given information. If my memory/web search is correct, pKa + pKb = pKw. So, assuming 6.351 is the correct pKa of H2CO3, the pKb of sodium bicarbonate should be 14 - 6.351 = 7.649. Simple. But I will let a chemist check my math and change the page if it's deemed appropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.207.32.126 (talk) 04:22, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

It's is correct, but what would it more convenient?129.22.208.240 (talk) 18:18, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Sodium content

I see some sources online saying that there is about 1000 mg of sodium in a teaspoon of baking soda. However, I calculate that baking soda NaHC03 is 23/(23+1+12+(3x16))=23/84=27% sodium and that there is

(1 tsp)x(4.93 cc/tsp)x(2.2 g/cc)x(0.27) = 3000 milligrams per teaspoon.

I don't see how I have made an error in this unless the density value (2.2 g/mL) is incorrect or baking soda is not NaHC03. What is up?CountMacula (talk) 00:27, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Incorrect Citation

Citation 13: http://gicare.com/pated/sodium_bicarbonate.htm links to a 404 page not found. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Imogenpickles (talk • contribs) 09:29, 12 March 2013 (UTC)

Proposing removal of medical use for burns

The statement under "Medical Uses" that a paste of sodium bicarbonate and water can be used as first aid treatment for burns has a reference to a discussion board post on the topic and has been tagged with a "medical citation needed" tag for nearly two years. I've searched for an appropriate medical citation and cannot find one; in fact, I've found some medical sources that recommend against the practice.

In the interests of not being too hasty, I'm going to hold off on removing the passage for a few days should anyone here be able to provide a reliable medical citation that supports the practice. If I don't see anything in a few days, I'll go ahead and remove said passage. --Schaea (talk) 22:55, 20 September 2013 (UTC)

Removed impugned passage per my post above. --Schaea (talk) 22:46, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Boiling point?!

Twolves14 I'm curious at the insertion of a boiling point for bicarbonate, seeing as it decomposes upon melting at 50 degrees. Is there a source for this? (Actually, is there a source for the decomp. either?) Tomásdearg92 (talk) 06:33, 22 September 2013 (UTC)

Tomásdearg92 Yes, you are correct, it does decompose. I needed the boiling point for a lab for my organic chemistry lab, and a few sources listed 851 degrees, so I included it here. I'm not sure where the number originated from. Maybe someone with an extensive background on the topic can explain.

Sources: http://www.chemblink.com/products/144-55-8.htm http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_US_CB7492884.aspx Twolves14 (talk) 01:07, 29 September 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, that's really weird—-it was only after you replied that I realised I could have looked at an MSDS without having to bother you—- Sigma-Aldrich's MSDS gives the melting at 300 °C, which agrees with your two sources. So where did the decomposition stuff come from? Time to start digging... Tomásdearg92 (talk) 02:56, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

It seems someone used Chemspider as the source, which in turn used Oxford University's safety sheet for the melting point only. Oxford stopped providing MSDS's a few years ago after they stopped updating it. (see: [5]) While Sigma-Aldrich give 300 °C, Fisher Scientific and others give 270° C, with decomp. >50 °C. However, searching through Reaxys gives the ranges 71-74, 175-180 and 160-170 °C. Seeing as the companies are obliged by law to keep their information up to date, and considering significant figures, I would personally side with the 270 °C value. I've never edited a chembox though. Tomásdearg92 (talk) 04:06, 30 September 2013 (UTC)

I contacted chemspider to let them know about the descrepancy, here is the reply:

"Thank you for your feedback reading around (I went to the Alfa Aesar product pages and the Merck Index http://www.rsc.org/Merck-Index/monograph/mono1500008719/) it appears that the situation is a bit more complex - it seems that it is probably incorrect to think of sodium bicarbonate as having a melting point as heating causes thermal decomposition. I've seen several statements along the lines of: -m.p. ≈50°, begins to lose CO2. ≈100°, converts to Na2CO3"

-- Tomásdearg92 (talk) 23:34, 26 October 2013 (UTC)

Name ?

Why is "Sodium hydrogen carbonate" called sodium bicarbonate. It has only one natrium and one carbonate ion? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.137.75.2 (talk) 13:11, 26 May 2014 (UTC)

Bicarbonate is another name for hydrogencarbonate; this is due to its ionic charge: HCO₃^- has "half the charge" of CO₃^2-, and therefore, considering the stochiometry of their salts, there will be twice as much "carbonates" in bicarbonate salts than in carbonate salts. Tomásdearg92 (talk) 01:13, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Use in pretzels

I deleted the following sentence because according to Pretzel, it is Sodium Carbonate, not Sodium Bicarbonate, which is sometimes used in pretzels: "* Sodium bicarbonate is used to give pretzels their dark brown color." --Trbdavies According to thousands of recipes Baking Soda is used in the making of Pretzels. Sodium Carbonate may be used traditionally in some German Pretzels but most worldwide are made using Baking Soda. The article 'Pretzels' you cite was about traditional German Pretzels........ https://www.google.com/#q=pretzels+baking+soda — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.26.61.74 (talk) 12:16, 1 May 2015 (UTC) Baking Soda is used in making Pretzels to make the tough outer skin so when it is baked the pretzel does not rise up and get puffy and/or cracked like bread does when it rises. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.26.61.74 (talk) 12:27, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

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Melting point is wrong

For sure it's not 50°C and decomposition does not occur at this temperature. Acros chemicals lists a MP of 250°C. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.14.167.13 (talk) 03:33, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

Elsewhere in the article (when talking about cooking) it claims that decomposition begins at 80°C. At least one of those is wrong! --Oolong (talk) 21:39, 4 February 2016 (UTC)

Decomposition starts at 50°C, but it remains a solid. I fixed it and added the reference to a reliable source. 129.49.51.230 (talk) 01:09, 20 April 2016 (UTC) And, taking into account that decomposition is not a phase transition, it does not start at some exact temperature, so the differences in different sources are attributed to differences in the sensitivity of methods they use.129.49.51.230 (talk) 01:12, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

As a cleaning agent

Apologies in advance if this is not the proper place for this. Be gentle.

The article claims "Also, Baking soda can be used as an ultimate multi purpose odor remover", which seems like unsubstantiated hyperbole. The source for the claim (http://cravedujour.com/kitchen-odor-eliminating-candles-products-tricks/#xxTICWbUEW5oLJeh.99) appears to be pure pablum with some advertising thrown in. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 104.184.94.243 (talk) 17:40, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

Anti-cancer

Do a Google search on baking soda and cancer, there are a few studies with sources that can be used if someone is bold enough to add it to the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.8.73.115 (talk • contribs)

→That sounds WP:FRINGE AF, please don't do that23.24.214.46 (talk) 23:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

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Needs more info in history section

First it says who invented a pre-cursor chemical (not actual baking soda), then it skips to the first factory in the US (not the first factory anywhere, which I'd guess may have been in Europe), not mentioning the actual invention of this substance or its first use. More information is clearly needed.--68.92.95.61 (talk) 23:00, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 11 May 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. (non-admin closure) Calidum 14:01, 18 May 2019 (UTC)

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Sodium bicarbonate → Baking soda – Baking soda is the common name of sodium bicarbonate. Mrbeastmodeallday (talk) 22:40, 11 May 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose - Baking soda is only one of very many uses of Sodium bicarbonate. The term Baking soda is also restricted in use to North America and affiliated countries. In the UK and for all those using commonwealth English the term is Bicarbonate of soda.  Velella  ^{Velella Talk}   22:55, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:TITLECHANGES. There are a number of names, all could serve, no good reason to swap. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:54, 11 May 2019 (UTC)
• * Support and Oppose. My suggestion is that the article be split into the cooking aspects vs the chemistry. 99% of readers want to read about the culinary aspect, is my guess. And these readers dont want to wade through nerdy chemical details. Wikipedia has ample precedent for such an split.--Smokefoot (talk) 02:38, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
  • • Agree, sort of. No new article. Send most of Sodium bicarbonate#Cooking to Baking powder. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:51, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
• Leaning oppose, as there are many technical details not associated with baking. bd2412 T 04:00, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Sodium bicarbonate is the more general term. I don't agree that most of the cooking section can be moved to Baking powder. Baking powders often contain sodium bicarbonate, but they also contain an acid. Sodium bicarbonate used in baking must be combined with an acid to active it as a leavening agent. So, recipes that use baking soda also use a separate acid, whereas recipes that use baking powder do not. Meters (talk) 04:47, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. Fine as is. Any move would take us into the realm of ingredient confusion. Here in the UK at least bicarbonate of soda and baking powder are quite distinct ingredients. See, for example, Nigella Lawson's banana bread recipe[6] (which I strongly recommend). Alexbrn (talk) 07:19, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
  • They are different over here in the US. One is just NaHCO3 and the powder contains Ca(H2PO4)2. --Smokefoot (talk) 12:42, 12 May 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose for now. While acknowledging that since 1990, "baking soda" has surpassed sodium bicarbonate overall in English currently, the current name has a long history of being common, and is still common in British English currently. I will point out, though, that in British English "baking soda" has surpassed "bicarbonate of soda" since about 1985. It could well be that the next RM I'd vote the other way if trends continue. -- Netoholic @ 11:31, 12 May 2019 (UTC)

---

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Production figure

In the Production section, the quoted figure for the amount of NaHCO3 produced per year is a mere 100,000 tonnes per year. The reference is a physical book, which I do not want to go out and find to see if this is even quoted accurately. However, it seems to me that this 100 kt/a figure is extremely low compared to the worldwide uses of the chemical. Just consider the amount of NaHCO3 used in sodablasting and ask yourself, "Really? 100 thousand tonnes per year? Pah!"

Additionally, after browsing the CEFIC report referenced in the Solvay process article, there is a reported 2.4 'million' tonnes per year capacity for refined sodium bicarbonate. While "capacity" is not the same as actual "production", I have a hard time believing that there there is 2.4 million tonnes/year production capacity, with only 0.1 million tonnes/year actually being produced. Due to these combined issues, I have added a "dubious" template to the 100 kt/a production figure. Could someone please verify the actual annual production of NaHCO3? BirdValiant (talk) 22:37, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for checking. I consulted Ullmann's Encyclopedia of Industrial Chemistry, one of the bibles for such info. The article "Sodium carbonates" is mostly about sodium carbonate, 32,000,000,000 tons of which were produced in 1990. Big time uses in glass, mining, etc. The same article is almost dismissive abuot sodium bicarbonate. It does not give production data but describes these uses, which seem small-time: "baking powder, as a medicament for neutralizing stomach acid, as a component of effervescent powders, in animal feed, and as a dry-powder fire extinguisher." So maybe the numbers in the current article are reasonable. --Smokefoot (talk) 01:22, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

@Smokefoot: Compared to 32 Gt/a, 0.0024 Gt/a (2.4 Mt/a) would be already small-time. On the other hand, 0.0001 Gt/a (100 kt/a) is another order of magnitude smaller.

I have found a page on commodity data circa 2004 here which gives a capacity of NaHCO3 production just in the United States of 860,000 tons/year (US short tons) and operating at 75% capacity, giving 585 kilotonnes per year production in the US alone. This already dwarfs the quoted 100 kt/a for the whole globe. BirdValiant (talk) 01:41, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Also, I believe that you're off by 3 orders of magnitude when it comes to sodium carbonate production. The sources I'm seeing are on the order of 50 Mt/a, not gigatonnes. [7] [8] BirdValiant (talk) 02:25, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Yep, 32M tons for Na2CO3.--Smokefoot (talk) 13:58, 22 November 2020 (UTC)

Alkalinity/pH increase

Sodium bicarbonate is an acid and when added to any solution it will reduce the pH (unless the pH is already low). It cannot be used to make a solution alkaline (pH >7). chami 16:51, 24 January 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ck.mitra (talk • contribs)

Untitled

This reference is not valid anymore (or at least the link is not active): "Sodium Bicarbonate". American Cancer Society. 28 November 2008. Retrieved 7 September 2013. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.81.65.168 (talk) 04:20, 24 June 2015 (UTC)

Cooking use: velveting meat

This velveting method is not described although widely used. Sadowskie (talk) 16:05, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Boiling point?

According to Google the boiling point is 851°C but it doesn't really list a source.

That's because it does not boil, it decomposes to sodium carbonate first. Sodium Bicarbonate decomposes to Sodium Carbonate and Carbon dioxide starting at 50°C. Sodium Carbonate however does melt at 851°C, it boils at 1,600°C The decomposition temperature is why Sodium Bicarbonate is useful as a leavening agent in breads or pancakes, it starts releasing CO2 before the dough cooks. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:243:1202:D9F0:601C:B15F:DF58:512A (talk) 21:12, 18 April 2022 (UTC)