Talk:Siberian Ingrian Finnish

Footnotes

This article should supply, in its references section, the source called "Sidorkevich 2014". TheLonelyPather (talk) 02:10, 16 September 2023 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Vaticidalprophet talk 02:44, 26 October 2023 (UTC)

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• ... that several dozen families deported to Siberia spread across two thousand kilometers (1,200 mi) from the swamps of Western Siberia to the Yenisey River in Eastern Siberia and created a new language? Source: 1. About a new language:

1.1 https://aclanthology.org/2022.computel-1.1.pdf see page 1: "The Siberian Ingrian Finnish Language is an Ingrian Finnish – Ingrian (Izhorian) mixed language. The ancestors of the speakers of Siberian Ingrian Finnish spoke Lower Luga Ingrian Finnish and Lower Luga Ingrian varieties (Kuznetsova et al., 2015). They migrated from the Lower Luga area to Siberia in 1803-1804".

1.2 Regarding the fact that this language originated in Siberia among migrants from Ingria: https://iling.spb.ru/theses/1999 page 17 (in Russian). Quote source: "Вторую большую общность финнов в Сибири составляли потомки ингерманландских переселенцев. Они также были лютеранами в конфессиональном отношении, но по происхождению теснее всего были связаны с финнами и ижорами из деревень в нижнем течении р. Луги. В качестве языка внутригруппового общения они, тем не менее, продолжали использовать идиом, сформировавшийся в первые десятилетия после переселения в Сибирь на базе нижнелужских ижорских и финских говоров района р. Россонь." My translation "The second largest community of Finns in Siberia were the descendants of Ingrian settlers. They were also Lutherans in confessional terms, but by origin they were most closely related with the Finns and Izhorians from the villages in the lower reaches of the Luga River. As a language of intra-group communication, they, however, continued to use the variety (language/dialect, In Russian: 'идиом') that was formed in the first decades after the resettlement to Siberia on the basis of the Lower Luga Ingrian (Izhorian) and Finnish dialects of the region of the Rosona River."

1.3 https://kirj.ee/public/Linguistica_Uralica/2016/issue_1/ling-2016-1-1-25.pdf see page 14: "Siberian Ingrian/Finnish is a mixed variety of Southern Lower Luga Ingrian and the Ingrian Finnish variety of the Lower Luga area. Since the works by Zlobina (Злобина 1971; Zlobina 1972) and Nirvi (1972), this ethnic group has been known by the name korlaki."

1.4 https://cyberleninka.ru/article/n/on-domains-of-adessive-allative-in-siberian-ingrian-finnish

2. About Western Siberia: https://kirj.ee/public/Linguistica_Uralica/2016/issue_1/ling-2016-1-1-25.pdf see page 14: " It is spoken by an ethnic group whose ancestors were expelled to the Omsk region of Western Siberia in 1803—1804 after an upspring against Baron von Ungern-Sternberg. They settled down in the village of Ryžkovo and the surrounding ones."

3. About Eastern Siberia: https://iling.spb.ru/theses/1999 page 35 (in Russian): "...необходимо упомянуть ещё несколько поселений на территории Южной и Восточной Сибири, где проживали ингерманландские финны и выходцы из Финляндии. В первую очередь, это с. Верхний Суэтук...". In this text "Верхний Суэтук" - is the village of Verkhny Suetuk which located east of the Yenisey River in Eastern Siberia.

About Estern Siberia, Yenisey and Verkhny Suetuk in nominated artical: "The Siberian Ingrian Finnish speakers made rather long migrations in Siberia. In the 19th century, part of the Siberian Ingrian Finnish speakers migrated to the village of Verkhny Suetuk [ru; et] (now Krasnoyarsk Krai)". The village of Verkhny Suetuk is located east of the Yenisey.

About location Verkhny Suetuk in Estonian Wikipedia: https://et.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Clem-Suetuk

• • Reviewed:

Created by Ubaleht (talk). Self-nominated at 21:27, 17 September 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Siberian Ingrian Finnish; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• Date and length ok. Very interesting subject. No QPQ needed. Hook seems to miss a verb. But mainly the article lacks outline when/how the language actually emerged. We understand a group of people was exiled, and later they speak a language but there is no connection between the dots. Could we have an ALT hook? --Soman (talk) 21:39, 1 October 2023 (UTC)
• Ping @Ubaleht: TSventon (talk) 23:04, 2 October 2023 (UTC)

Small grammar changes ALT1 - "...that several dozen families who were deported to Siberia, spread across two thousand kilometers (1,200 mi) from the swamps of Western Siberia to the Yenisey River in Eastern Siberia, created a new language?" --Soman (talk) 13:16, 3 October 2023 (UTC)

Hi @TSventon: and @Soman: ! TSventon thank you for ping, I made changes to the text of the article (see in article "Here, Siberian Ingrian Finnish as a language of communication was formed based on the Ingrian Finnish and Ingrian dialects of the villages of the lower reaches of the Luga River among migrants in the first decades of the 19th century") in accordance with remark "...But mainly the article lacks outline when/how the language actually emerged..." form Soman a couple of weeks ago, proof - see above section 1.2. Soman ALT1 - looks good! TSventon and Soman what are the next steps to get this proposal into DYK? Ubaleht (talk) 17:02, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Ok, I'd tick for ALT1 (if this is ok that I tick my own ALT?) --Soman (talk) 19:45, 15 October 2023 (UTC)

Copy edit

@Ubaleht: I have done some basic grammar fixes for the article, please change anything I have got wrong. Also I have added a sources section, which was required by the sfn references. TSventon (talk) 23:46, 17 September 2023 (UTC)

Thank you @TSventon ! Super! I would also highlight “swamps” and “Yenisey River” with links so that the distance of this migration can be seen: ".. that several dozen families deported to Siberia spread across two thousand kilometers (1,200 mi) from the swamps of Western Siberia to the Yenisey River in Eastern Siberia and created a new language?" Ubaleht (talk) 07:43, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

@Ubaleht:, I have updated the hook, you could do that yourself as no one has replied at the nomination yet.Uhave three suggestions

• Could you check that all the facts from the hook are in the article followed by citations? Per WP:DYKG, (The hook fact should be cited in the article, no later than the end of the sentence it appears in.) I can't see "two thousand kilometers" or "swamps" for example.
• Could you explain where Ingria was (for clarity, not DYK rules)?
• Also if you include an image in the nomination, it should be mentioned in the nomination as "(pictured)". The map in the nomination is not mentioned as "(pictured)" and probably doesn't work well as a small image.

TSventon (talk) 11:35, 18 September 2023 (UTC)

Thanks @TSventon for the help and suggestions!

1. About "two thousand kilometers" or "swamps", I added phrases containing "migrated to a distance of two thousand kilometers to the village of Verkhny Suetuk [ru; et] beyond the river Yenisey" and "Here on the Bugen River, among forests and swamps, they founded a settlement named Bugene." to the text of the article. There are really a lot of swamps in Western Siberia (in particular in the Omsk region). I thought that "the swamps of Western Siberia" is a stable expression and a well-known fact. There were swamps around many villages (Ryzhkovo, Finy, Matveevka, Orikovo, Larionovka) where native speakers of Siberian Ingrian Finnish lived in Western Siberia.
2. About picture. The picture with the map is not beautiful, it is not suitable for display in DYK, also this picture does not show Verkhniy Suetuk village (it did not fit in the picture) which is beyond the Yenisey. @TSventon can I remove the "...main page image/DYK|image=Siberian Ingrian Finnish settlements.png| ..." tags for delete this picture in Did_you_know page myself? There is a warning message below: "Please do not edit above this line unless you are a DYK volunteer who is closing the discussion".
3. Ingria is a historical region that roughly coincides with the current Leningrad Oblast in Russia.

Ubaleht (talk) 20:31, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

1. Thank you for the additions, I know very little about Siberian geography and DYK reviewers and the main page audience probably know equally little.
2. I have removed the code for the picture, I think that won't be a problem as no-one has started a review yet.
3. Mentioning Ingria isn't vital, but could help people who have never heard of it. TSventon (talk) 21:49, 19 September 2023 (UTC)

   Ingria - ok, Thank you @TSventon for help! Ubaleht (talk) 08:21, 20 September 2023 (UTC)