Talk:Sheep shagger

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How the hell did an article promoting such a ridiculous stereotype get into the front page? I have seen ridiculous DYK before but this a whole new level of incompetence.--Catlemur (talk) 20:13, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

You need to complain at Wikipedia talk:Did you know - it's not the article's fault. Personally, I'm looking forward to Muttonheads and Roast lamb with laver sauce. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:18, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

It is a cultural comment that has been commented on by numerous reliable sources, no reason why it shouldn't appear as normal. Besides, most Welsh people tend to take it with joviality. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 22:08, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

Well, I always take it with mint jelly (unless I'm in the land of the Scottish Blackface). Martinevans123 (talk) 22:30, 15 April 2016 (UTC)

The main problem is in the DYK blurb which simply states that Welshmen engage in bestiality without any context whatsoever. Unless a person goes on to read the article he/she simply sees an out of context, offensive, clickbait statement.--Catlemur (talk) 08:52, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, clickbait - always a bit of a gamble. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:59, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@Martinevans123: Your attempts to derail the discussion with "funny" off topic comments is not going to work here.--Catlemur (talk) 09:33, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Thanks. Yes, they isn't. They never "work" anywhere. The last thing we want is humour, isn't it. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:51, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

That's the purpose of DYK, to write thought provoking hooks that incentivise people to click through to read the article. Anybody who may have initially thought that it was literal would see that it was just an insult. Besides, I think there was sufficient context when it says they are "sometimes called sheep shaggers" because the called suggests that it isn't something that is done actually and regularly but merely said towards them. If it had said that Welshmen sometimes indulge in sheep shagging, then I could understand your position. However, most people commenting on Errors seem to agree that there was nothing wrong with it. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:38, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

There are so far no comments on the Errors from third party editors on this specific case. My point is that the hook was just insulting instead of thought provoking, a single short sentence contains no context. What do you think of this hook?: "DYK that The C of E is sometimes called a bigoted, two faced, sheep shagger?", to me it sound equally offensive with what you created. The blurb is supposed to be just as neutral as the article itself, many people have short attention spans and are not going to read the whole thing.--Catlemur (talk) 10:12, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

WP:NPA. there is a big difference between the hook and what you just said, one is something that has changed over time to lose most of its sting and is mostly viewed as a joke insult, the other is just being out and out rude. I've already explained why there is context and frankly people even with short attention spans will see how it developed over time as it is a short article. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 10:22, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

How do you know if it lost its sting if you are not Welsh but rather come from the same ethnic background as those who invented the insult? To quote the article you created "It is often viewed as offensive in Wales.", stop contradicting yourself.--Catlemur (talk) 10:31, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I was almost offended, but fortunately my attention span was too short. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:51, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

• You might want to focus your attention on Cheese-eating surrender monkeys, Mackerel snapper, Swamp Yankee, Greaser, Cracker, Banana, Kraut, Guizi, Kike and Chink. Or you could just, you know, accept the fact that encyclopedias sometimes have articles about ethnic slurs. --Guy Macon (talk) 17:01, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

@Guy Macon: The issue is in the bad, out of context DYK blurb, not in the numerous articles about racial slurs which I am totally ok with.--Catlemur (talk) 17:16, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

You forgot wop and nip, and of course that other N-word. Maybe we could do one a week. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:25, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

Time for a stroll down Gropecunt Lane. Won't someone think of the children! Lugnuts ^{Dick Laurent is dead} 19:51, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Ireland

It is used for someone from the country, mainly Wicklow- thanks t their skills in sheep breeding. Will try to find RS for this. Murry1975 (talk) 12:37, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

As far as I know, it's used throughout the English speaking world as a jokey reference to rural neighbours in sheep farming areas. It's commonly used in northern England to refer to people in the Peak District and other upland areas. The 'slur' is generally affectionate. See "No Sheep Till Buxton" by The Macc Lads. --Ef80 (talk) 20:53, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Don't just see, sing along. One of Cheshire's cultural highlights. But tend to agree it's definitely not, as this article suggests (through lack of reliable sources) just "Welsh and New Zealanders". Martinevans123 (talk) 21:38, 6 July 2016 (UTC)

Image

Now that someone's had the balls to delete the S&M image, it's hard to know what could resonably take its place. Maybe something more refreshing, from Wisconsin?Martinevans123 (talk) 17:38, 16 April 2016 (UTC)

I certainly didn't approve of the whole S&M sheep thing, I preferred the original which was just a straight up sheep pic. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 07:42, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, I always go for straight up, myself. Is it notable that the Tyranena Brewery at Lake Mills, Wisconsin should give this name to a Scotch Ale? Are they really poking fun at those poor Scotsmen? Apparently "shagging means retrieving" ... which must be awkward if you have a Golden Shagger. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:33, 17 April 2016 (UTC)

Other uses in football

I remember a friend being a fan of the Derby County FC, and he was often teased by others about being a sheep shagger too. I don't know how common it is, but it may be worth considering. Perhaps it just falls under the general "people from the countryside", but I think it may be notable since they have a sheep (ram to be exact) in their logo. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 02:32, 19 April 2016 (UTC)

A number of other editors have also suggested that the insult is used for rural dwellers in general and that it has no particular relative signifucance towards any specific nationality/ies. But we seem to be lacking sources for either side. The only source I could find for Derby County was at wikt:Sheepshagger, but that's not suitable as it's not itself sourced. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:40, 19 April 2016 (UTC) p.s. re your adjustment of the second sentence - it looks to me somewhat stronger than a polite "suggestion".

The sentence needed some adjustment, because the previous form was ambiguious. I agree that "suggestion" is probably strong enough, since the insult is usually explicitly stated. But the alternatives which spring to my mind are "claim" and "allegation", which sound too strong. "allegation" may be the better option from the point of an appropriate tone though, because it is a explicit claim that is (hopefully?) without proof. AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 01:30, 20 April 2016 (UTC)

A mere suggestion might be "sheep lover", "sheep fancier" or "sheep sniffer", etc. But the phrase "sheep shagger" is a bald accusation meaning, quite simply, "you have sexual intercourse with sheep". As with any insult, of course, a connection with any actual truth is irrelevant. But "suggestion" doesn't seem quite strong enough to me. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:08, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

I totally agree with you Martin, I just put "suggestion" there first as a tame option until something better could be thought of. Your last comment has given me a better idea. How about The insult is the labeling of the subject as someone engages in sexual intercourse with sheep.? AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 00:57, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, that looks fine to me. I guess we can carefully side-step the issue of whether sheep is singular or plural in this case? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:11, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Indeed I think we can... AtHomeIn神戸 (talk) 02:56, 25 April 2016 (UTC)

Possible other origin

This probably originated because when Wales became part of the UK, the Welsh noticed that they were punished less if they shagged a sheep than if they had stolen a sheep. So when sheep thieves were caught, they just said the former.1, 3, #15 on this list 100.12.87.210 (talk) 13:40, 21 April 2016 (UTC)

Specifically for the quote The use ... in Wales, why and how did it evolve into Welsh people being referred to this as a derogatory term? I think it might have been from the punishment doled out, but I can't say much. 100.12.87.210 (talk) 00:14, 22 April 2016 (UTC)

Johnson, the Spectator

Couldn't we expand into goats? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:55, 19 May 2016 (UTC)

Image (again)

The image used for this excuse for an article is of a sheep. The topic of this 'article' is sheep shagger. MOS:PERTINENCE says, Images should have significance and direct relevance to the topic, and not be primarily decorative. Finding good replacements is encouraged when removing poor or inappropriate images, but in some articles images may not be necessary. Unless this particular sheep is one that can be referenced to have been shagged by a human, it has no direct relevance to the topic. Many (possibly most) of Wikipedia's racist articles have no image. This doesn't need one either. The image is unnecessary and should be removed. Daicaregos (talk) 14:42, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

It is something to illustrate that which the article claims is subject to particular interest. With regard to other racist term (of which this isn't as welsh is not a race) articles, a few of them do and are much worse than a picture of a sheep. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 14:52, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

An image of a sheep would be perfectly suitable to illustrate an article about sheep. This is not such an article. MOS guidance (noted above) says images should have direct relevance to the topic. That topic is not sheep. The image should be removed.

Re your claim that the Welsh are not a race, it is noted in this 'article' that someone was found guilty of racially aggravated disorderly behaviour: QED. Please re-instate the phrase 'racist slur' in the lead, which you recently removed, to correctly summarize the body of the article, per WP:LEAD. Daicaregos (talk) 15:29, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

The term is racist, and the illustration is irrelevant - I guess its inclusion was intended as someone's idea of a "joke". It should be removed. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:39, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

I seem to recall @Martinevans123: took an interest in the image issue last time. I seem to recall the statement was that a sheep involved in surgery was not appropriate but a normal one was fine as it was correct to show the other half of the insult for what it also insulted. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 17:31, 30 May 2016 (UTC)

No need to have to recall the conversation. It is recorded in a section above. I don't read his comments as agreement to use the current image. Even if they were, it is contrary to the MOS guidence noted above and should be removed. Daicaregos (talk) 13:25, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

I've no strong views on images of sheep; especially from the scrag end up. It was better than the Fifty Shades of Grey Wool one, but that's not a brilliant recommendation. And even though we do have an image of "an almost real nigger" over at Nigger. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:01, 5 June 2016 (UTC)

Well, at least that image denotes the subject. The image used on this article does not. I have removed it, per MOS:PERTINENCE. Daicaregos (talk) 14:49, 10 June 2016 (UTC)

Yes, on second thoughts, that sheep looks far too nice to be dragged into this cheap and tawdry article. Someone's just gaming the system here. We have a much better selection over at dogging. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:39, 11 June 2016 (UTC)

"Racist"

To a New Zealander describing the term as "racist" is ridiculous. To begin with, New Zealanders are not a homogenous ethnic group. If an Australian or Brit calls us a sheep shagger we'll just shake our heads and say something like "is that the best you can do?".
There was a single court case in the UK where a man was fined for some (probably newly defined) offence called "racially aggravated disorderly behaviour" for calling a Welsh policeman a "sheep shagger". Just because the Torygraph reports it as "man fined for racism" doesn't mean "sheep shagger" is actually a racist term, and Partridge certainly doesn't define it as such. It's quite possible that the Welsh find it more offensive than we do, but don't put in the opening sentence that it's a racist insult against New Zealanders. We're not offended by it, we just think it's lame and old. MaxBrowne (talk) 15:38, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

It certainly is an insult, no issue with that. But I would have thought that a criminal conviction is a very good way of further defining that insult as "racist", regardless of how recent the relevant legislation was. Exactly how does Partridge define it? We also now have the word "insult" repeated in the lede. You have personal authority to speak on behalf of all New Zealanders here? Perhaps we ought to remove mention of New Zealand from that sentence? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:48, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

We may as well use a link to ethnic slur, and highlight that it can sometimes be considered racist by namby-pamby Brits. At least it's not an old goating term. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:04, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

We're even more namby pamby and PC than you Brits, we even have a Race Relations Commissioner, but I can assure you that not a single New Zealander would consider the term "racist". I think defining it as a racist term based on a newspaper's choice of words in reporting a single court case is a stretch too. English, Scots, Welsh and Irish insulting each other is not "racism" as I understand the term. MaxBrowne (talk)

But it's not "a newspaper's choice of words" it's an interpretation/ definition proven in a court of law. That's my point. If a similar case has never occurred in New Zealand, then I agree that does suggest it might be viewed differently there. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:13, 31 January 2017 (UTC) p.s looking forward to a boat nigger article.

Well the charge wasn't "racism", it was "racially aggravated disorderly behaviour", it was the Telegraph that chose to use the word "racism" in its report. Is "racist" honestly the term an ordinary Welsh person would use to describe such an incident? MaxBrowne (talk) 16:33, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Why not? Especially if there's some nice juicy compensation at stake. But I see the wording has now been adjusted by some community-minded goatsucker. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:38, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Racism is legal in the UK if you get it wrong and mis-target it. An easy defence to such a charge is to show that the victim isn't a member of such a group. Abuse of a member of an identified racial group is easier to prove as actionable racism, even if the particular abuse wasn't overtly racist. Those who've been watching WP for a while can probably guess some of the cases I'm referring to. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:19, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

Note that it was the PC Guardian that mocked the use of hate crime legislation to deal with the incident, instead of just charging him under traditional anti-dickhead legislation (which would normally be settled outside of court cause they've got more important things to do). We all know that legal interpretations of legislation can lead to strange results that defy common sense. I don't believe the word "racist" belongs in the lead at all. It can be used in reference to the particular case since it's in the Telegraph, but that of course is a right-biased source. MaxBrowne (talk) 23:00, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

• If I beat up a Sikh because they're wearing a turban and I don't like muslims, that's still a racist attack.

Sheep shagger might not be an effective racial insult, but it's certainly used as one. I'm from Liverpool: it's a popular term up there (as "woolyback") to refer to anyone who lives further away from the centre of Liverpool than you do. Especially across the Mersey and into the Wirral. All of these uses are racist: they identify some group as "other" from your own, then denigrate them by the ovine slur. This is the core of racism, whether the other group might be objectively identified as a separate race or not. Andy Dingley (talk) 16:06, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

When I first wrote this page, I used the term "derogatory name" to describe it. I certainly did not describe it as racist and I do not believe calling it racist should be in there because New Zealander same as Welsh is not a race, it's a nationality. The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 23:10, 31 January 2017 (UTC)

I would recommend that you read the article on Racism. It contains within it this definition amoung others the term "racial discrimination" shall mean any distinction, exclusion, restriction, or preference based on race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin that has the purpose or effect of nullifying or impairing the recognition, enjoyment or exercise, on an equal footing, of human rights and fundamental freedoms in the political, economic, social, cultural or any other field of public life. One could easily hold that a person calling someone from Wales or New Zealand by the term sheep shagger is a racist slur and therefore prosecution would be valid. NealeFamily (talk) 09:01, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I don't see prosecutions for all the football fans who chant sheep shagger when they play Cardiff or Swansea. Clearly if the police viewed it to be a racist term, they would have taken action about it same as the Scottish police did with sectarianism. It is just a harmless term that appears to only offend those for whom it is not aimed at. (Plus technically Welsh isn't a nationality anyway, should have reworded my original comment) The C of E God Save the Queen! (talk) 09:22, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

In the UK, there is a difference between racism, the racism that is recognised under our narrowly defined laws, and general abuse. Only racism that falls under the law is actionable.

Two of my online trolls were imprisoned (one's still in there). Not for abusing me, not for threatening me (it was excluded as "not a credible threat"), but for making the major mistake that UK trolls make: going after a jewish MP. Once they target someone who is both able to afford the costs of bringing the case, and can present this in a way that is clearly identified within the framework of UK law, they're convictable. Abusing a muslim prosecuting brief probably wasn't a smart move either, for the same reasons, but they weren't charged with that one. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:12, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Research suggests homophobes repress their own homosexuality, which clarifies why they have such difficulty letting their obsession go. Presumably something similar operates here. This article would have more value and interest if it focused on the demography and psychology of the folk who hurl "sheep shagger" as an epithet, though I doubt supporting research exists. --Epipelagic (talk) 23:17, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

Oh yeah?? So just 'cos I'm Welsh, you think I like wolves, yeah?? Just take that Afgan coat off and say that. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:24, 7 February 2017 (UTC)

But why though?

This article doesn’t even explain why the welsh are associated with having sex with sheep! What started this insult?Did Someone see a welsh man have sex with a sheep? The history just says when the insult was first used and stuff about how it is used in Siuth Africa to refer to the Australians! This is very poor for an article. --Lerdthenerd wiki defender 20:57, 26 April 2020 (UTC)