Talk:René Bazinet

Removed warning

I have removed the warning that read: {{multiple issues|BLP sources=March 2012|one source=March 2012|unreliable sources=March 2012}}

after providing the following references that I believe address all those issues

• "Saltimbanco Press Kit". Cirque du Soleil (Press Kit). Retrieved 2011-03-08.
• IMDB. "Bio René Bazinet". IMDB. Retrieved 2012-02-29.
• "Meet a Circus Mentor". Cirque du Soleil. Retrieved March 06, 2012.
• Huston, Hollis (1992). The actor's instrument: body, theory, stage. University of Michigan Press. pp. 76. ISBN 0472103083.

--DataHead2112 (talk) 14:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Using a taped interview as a source

Has the taped interview or a transcript been published anywhere? An unpublished interview is not a good enough source for the material in a Wikipedia article. See WP:SOURCE. -- John of Reading (talk) 07:12, 18 March 2014 (UTC)

Image deletion request

Opened at Commons:Deletion requests/Files of User:Blythe Spirit – czar 18:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Full date of birth

Reliable published sources give Bazinet's birth year as 1955. IMDB gives a full DoB as 26 April 1955. However, this is not a reliable source. His full date of birth is not publicly available on his official Facebook page [1]. If it is there, it is only available to "friends". Per Wikipedia's policy on Biographies of living persons, we do not publish the full DoB for living persons unless that information is widely and publicly available in reliable published sources and/or on the subject's official website. Voceditenore (talk) 06:00, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Agreed. Since his birthday is not publicly available on his Facebook page, we must go where the reliable sources take us. -- Ebyabe (talk) 17:52, 12 August 2015 (UTC)

Exact Date of Birth

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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@Voceditenore & Ebyabe -|- Just a rhetorical question that I neither require nor desire an answer to, but are you aware of the fact that all three (3) of the major search engines, Yahoo, Google & Bing all list Mr. Bazinet's accurate date of birth, when his name is used in a search? Your apparent stubborn adherence to the unprofessional looking info currently on his page, here, in reference to when he was born - is simply a case of bad judgement - in my humble opinion. It not only fails to do credit to Mr. Bazinet, but also makes Wikipedia seem rather out of touch and ultimately an unreliable source. Merely food for thought... Blythe Spirit (talk) 23:03, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Search engines pick up material from IMDB (which is also recycled by multiple other sites) and and old versions of the Wikipedia article (likewise copied onto multiple other sites). That is no indication whatsoever of veracity. There is nothing "unprofessional" about having the year of birth only. Ether drop the subject or ask Bazinet to publish his full date of birth on the public version of his Facebook page, not the one available only to his "friends". One again, I suggest you also read Wikipedia's policy on the biographies of living persons. Voceditenore (talk) 07:07, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

• Sorry Blythe Spirit, but IMDB is not a reliable source per our content guidelines, so there is no verifiable source for the date of birth. It's also a bit unfair to say that this article will be seen as "rather out of touch and ultimately an unreliable source" without a date of birth included if no other publication has his date of birth either; we can only report what others have said. This page isn't unique, there are many Wiki pages without a date, just a year, and there is really no problem with it. Also, (and I am in no way saying that either you or Rene would lie) sometimes date of births become very tricky to work out and there is an argument to just have a year (see Talk:Rebel Wilson). ColonialGrid (talk) 15:41, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps some of Blythe Spirit's objection stems from the estimated age in the infobox? I had originally just put the year without the {{bya}} template which adds the estimated age automatically. Another editor later added it. I've now returned to simple year of birth without the estimated age. Other than that, it would be totally irresponsible of Wikipedia to publish a full date when the subject of the article has specifically chosen not to make one publicly available and the only other source is an unreliable one. Voceditenore (talk) 17:31, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, ColonialGrid & Voceditenore, if my observations can be declared "unfair" I'm compelled to counter that your reasoning sounds like feeble and flimsy subterfuge, to me. For instance, where was a verifiable year of birth, for Mr. Bazinet, found - if not on IMDb? Moreover, if you're quite comfortable about listing IMDb as a reliable source of reference, on Wikipedia's pages, in relation to an artist's repertoire and yet are unwilling to rely on the exact date of birth, there, where is the logic or common sense to that? All I can say is Voltaire was correct, when centuries ago he declared that 'common sense is not so common,' or something along those lines. The bottom line is why rely on the year that IMDb has listed, and that is on all three (3) of the major search engines, if you're not going to depend on the month and day being correct, too? Mr. Bazinet was asked to reveal his FB information, accordingly, which apparently isn't available to the public, there, but isn't sure how to do so and declined to be walked through the process. His final words on the subject were: "Don't worry about it." Therefore, I'm not going to (so to speak) make a Federal Case out of the situation. However, I do believe your rationale - with respect to Wikipedia's inconsistent policies in these circumstances - is quite faulty, that my points are perfectly valid and just thought they merited mentioning. Blythe Spirit (talk) 21:59, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

We are not relying on IMDB, an unreliable source, for Bazinet's year of birth. His year of birth is given as 1955 on page 66 of LeBank, Ezra and Bridel, David (2015). Clowns: In Conversation with Modern Masters published by Routledge which is a reliable source. Had I not been able to find such a source, I would not have included even the year of birth. Note also that IMDB is not used at all as a reference for the article. It is listed as an external link only. External links are not references. If you are unclear about the difference, please see Wikipedia:External links. – Voceditenore (talk) 05:10, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

• To add to what Voceditenore wrote above (which I agree with), search engines are not reliable sources, they simply aggregate and regurgitate info with zero discretion as to how correct it is. We, however, only use verifiable sources, so only info sourced from reliable publishers is used, not aggregated info from Google. Blyth Spririt, if you want the full date added, provide a real source for the info. ColonialGrid (talk) 16:11, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
• Agreed. Better less information which is reliably sourced than more that isn't. Again, if Bazinet cares enough to have his accurate date of birth listed, have it published in a reliable source. The publicly viewable version of his Facebook page, as previously suggested. or maybe he could give an interview with a newspaper or magazine where he states it. In any case, there are numerous Wikipedia biography articles that have only a year of birth, or no birth/age info at all for lack of reliable sources. Only having Bazinet's year of birth here is no big deal. --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Health and Welfare ‖ 16:21, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

Just for the sake of argument would anyone care to tell me why Wikipedia considers IMDb an "unreliable source," as it seems to me most everyone else on the Internet begs to disagree and has no problem relying on its information..... I mean, for example, are there particular glaring discrepancies that can be cited where their info is fabricated or false? Blythe Spirit (talk) 04:47, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Blythe Spirit, it's because much of IMDB is derived from user-generated content. Users can add content without any fact checking or editorial oversight. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 05:08, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• I did provide a link earlier, but, here it is again WP:RS#Self-published sources (online and paper). ColonialGrid (talk) 06:48, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

I had also provided that link previously. Blythe Spirit, please read it and see here for just one example of the many problems with IMDB, especially for biographical information. As User:NeilN says and as you can read at Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Self-published sources (online and paper), IMDB's biographical content is user-generated and "accepted" by that site with no real editorial control or fact-checking (let alone supporting references)—and with the inevitable consequences. This is a long-standing Wikipedia-wide policy based on editorial experience over many years. It will not be changed by repeatedly asserting that "everyone else on the internet" thinks it's reliable, and it will certainly not be changed with reference to Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons where the requirements for verifiability and reliable sourcing are especially strict and rightly so. Voceditenore (talk) 07:06, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, folks, it's all a bunch of bunk, to me. I tried to read through the references provided and found them very cryptically written, at best. The fact remains that anyone and his mother is allowed to edit on Wikipedia, too, and so the same things occur here, as well. For instance who has verified Mr. Bazinet's friend and clown partner David Shiner's birth date? I know and have been associated with Mr. Bazinet, starting in 2002, which the photos I supplied - to supplement my initial article, on him, and one of which still adorns his page - prove. Therefore, I can personally confirm his date of birth. Yet, the 'powers that be' continue to stubbornly prevent my efforts to do so. Where is the sense in that? Although ColonialGrid mentions: "(and I am in no way saying that either you or Rene would lie)," to my mind, denying the truth is both an insult and a travesty of justice, in this case, after all is said and done. Blythe Spirit (talk) 16:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Considering that comment, it seems like no further productive discussion is probable on this topic. Can this thread be closed, please? Or should it stay open for a few more days, even though it's going to be position restatements back and forth? --‖ Ebyabe ^talk - Attract and Repel ‖ 17:21, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)Since you can't find it, I have extracted the text: "self-published media—whether books, newsletters, personal websites, open wikis, blogs, personal pages on social networking sites, Internet forum postings, or tweets—are largely not acceptable. This includes any website whose content is largely user-generated, including the Internet Movie Database (IMDB)..." Yes, Wikis can be edited by anyone, that's why Wikis cannot be used as a source (to elaborate, you cannot use one article on English Wikipedia as a source in another article on English Wikipedia, similarly, you cannot use a page from another language edition or Wikia etc). Regarding the other birthday: WP:OTHERTHINGS. This is very simple: provide a printed or online reliable source for the birthday if you want it included, arguing will not help one iota, it will just wear the patience of others thin. ColonialGrid (talk) 17:25, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

By all means close the topic, since it's not my intention to continue flogging a dead horse and wear -my own- as well as everyone else's patience thin. Please note, however, that nothing said - by any of you - has made one iota of sense to me. Moreover, there are exceptions to every rule and for that reason rules were meant to be bent, to some extent, in the interest of keeping an open mind. I believe this to be just such an instance and have nothing more to say, on the subject. Blythe Spirit (talk) 17:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

• I can end this conversation once and for all; Blythe Spirit is not the spokesperson for Mr. Bazinet, does NOT have his approval concerning anything to do with his Page, nor does she have any communication with Mr. Bazinet what so ever (or at least, not knowingly on Mr. Bazinet's part). If Blythe Spirit claims recent communications with Mr. Bazinet, it is under false pretenses; the true identity of Blythe Spirit is a person to whom Mr. Bazinet REFUSES all contact, therefore, to claim she has Mr. Bazinet's "ear" in this matter is untrue. Perhaps, in order to converse with Mr. Bazinet, she is masking her identity and he is unaware of who she really is; if this is the case, Mr. Bazinet will be apprised of the situation. Thank you.Parenchyma18 (talk) 18:24, 2 September 2015 (UTC)

Whoever you are, Parenchyma18, your personal indictment is unnecessary, uncalled for and totally out-of-line. Furthermore, it is no business of yours who has his "ear," as you put it. Mr. Bazinet related the following, as I previously mentioned, concerning the issue: "Don't worry about it." He is well aware of having done so and to whom. Since my image of him embellishes his page, here, I have an interest in how accurate the information is that my picture reflects. To briefly summarize the factual circumstances involved, I attempted to get all three (3) of my pictures, of him, deleted from Wikimedia but to no avail. When my original article, based upon five (5) hours of taped interview, did not meet Wikipedia's stringent standards, in terms of verifiable published material I deleted it along with the pictures that were meant to supplement it. I did not have the motivation to research all the published material available and write another such article. Recently, I discovered that unbeknownst to me someone reinstated my pictures to embellish two (2) paltry and somewhat inaccurate statements, that proved an embarrassment. However, as a result of my 'Deletion Request' Voceditenore was good enough to do the requisite research and compose a very nice article, which fixed the problem. If you wish to contribute anything of significance by editing the article, specifically with respect to providing a reliable source listing his date of birth, it is your privilege to do so. In any case, kindly refrain from behaving in an uncivilized, mudslinging manner, making idle threats and voicing absurd theories, in relation to me, regarding personal matters that have no bearing on this situation and are no affair of yours. Please conduct yourself with proper decorum and restrict your comments to the subject, of this post, which is concerned with having Mr. Bazinet's accurate date of birth displayed and nothing more... I won't dignify any further unpleasant responses, from you, with a reply -- Parenchyma18. Now, I believe before all the cyber trolls come out of the woodwork it would be a good time to close this topic. Blythe Spirit (talk) 03:50, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• I am closing this discussion. There is a clear consensus not to add a full date of birth without a supporting source that is considered reliable according to Wikipedia's long-standing guidelines and policies. If René Bazinet has any issues with either the article as it currently stands, or with the commentary on this talk page, he can contact info-en-q@wikimedia.org where a member of Volunteer Response Team will discuss his concerns in confidence and help find a way forward. This talk page is not the place to keep reiterating the fact one disagrees with Wikipedia's policies on biographies of living persons and on verifiability. Appropriate places for that are Wikipedia talk:Biographies of living persons and Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. To discuss the reliability of particular sources use Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. If Mr. Bazinet has an issue with some of the comments at Commons:Deletion requests/Files of User:Blythe Spirit which purported to be from someone with personal knowledge of his views on the use of the photographs, then he can contact info-commons@wikimedia.org, where once again, his concerns will be treated in confidence. Note: that is an issue for Wikimedia Commons, not Wikipedia. Voceditenore (talk) 10:54, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Verification and Reliability

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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In the interest of fairness I would like to ask Parenchyma18 to verify that she is a personal friend, of long standing, as she claims to have known him for veritably decades, by preferably submitting a photo for René's page. Either that, or persuading him to change his FB birthday info to make it accessible to the Public, rather than just Friends of Friends, thereby allowing Wikipedia to list the month and day in his info box, here, should serve the purpose. Parenchyma18 has made some very disparaging remarks in reference to me, not only here, but on Voceditenore's talk page and her own talk page. Voceditenore has subsequently remarked that she suspects Parenchyma18's falsehoods, about me, are true but apparently doesn't consider it necessary for Parenchyma18 to prove the veracity of any of her blanket statements. Parenchyma18 has conveniently dropped the matter, completely, to leave it unverified that she even knows René, let alone more than just as a fan or superficial acquaintance. I believe she should have at least one nice photo, of him that belongs to her, to substitute for mine, if she really actually has known René personally and why not display it, then? If she obviously has no respect for me, whatsoever, why would she want to see my photo up, here, anyway? By the same token if she is a personal friend why wouldn't she want to see his entire correct birth-date displayed, too? Blythe Spirit (talk) 19:53, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

Voceditenore, clearly someone is not "dropping the stick"....I respectively request an Administrator or similar to intervene. Parenchyma18 (talk) 21:36, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

I think you may have wanted to say you respectfully request rather than "respectively." Maybe you're not who I think/thought you are/were. I don't believe she would have made such a blatant error. Nevertheless, it seems that you are eager to drop the ball, not just the stick. Do you really believe I or anyone should merely accept your claims of having known René for decades, while you endeavored to pummel me with derogatory comments meant to denigrate my reputation? Why are you seemingly so unwilling to back up your declarations with proof? If you're actually a long time friend, of his, it should be simple to produce such proof to support your assertions. I admitted to having relied on friends to convey some of his thoughts and feelings, to me, that René wouldn't otherwise have related, due to the bitter nature of our falling out. Neither of which was made clear, as I saw no need to convolute the situation(s) any more than necessary. What's your explanation for finding it necessary to lambaste me, with falsehoods, you wanted everyone (especially Voceditenore) to believe about me and then just take your leave? Please either rise to the challenge or simply admit that you are an impostor who has nothing constructive to add to René's page and only wanted to attempt to destroy my credibility... Blythe Spirit (talk) 22:42, 3 September 2015 (UTC)

• Blythe Spirit, on Wiki I do not care who you know. I do not care who Parenchyma18 knows. I do not care who I know. All I care about is what reliable sources know and what they say. You are not a reliable source. Parenchyma18 in not a reliable source. I am not a reliable source. Content we create without any supporting evidence is not a reliable source; only content produced by a trusted individual or publisher is a reliable source. This leads to one simple fact which you have no option but to accept: to include any information you need a reliable source. If Bazinet doesn't care enough to release his date of birth, neither should we, if he does, Voceditenore has provided ample information for him to follow. Stop. Stop this diatribe about how bad we are, we are simply following Wikipedia's policies, guidelines, and procedures, do not make this personal. If you continue this I was lodge a request for administrative intervention on the basis that you are not here to build an encyclopaedia. I implore you drop this tendentious editing and either provide a source or move on. ColonialGrid (talk) 04:31, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

• In the early 80s I was playing once, as a session musician, for a famous artist in a Berlin venue. There were two fans in the front row arguing loudly about which of them knew the artist best. They were almost tearing each other's hair out. The artist whispered to me "You know, I don't actually know either of them at all."

I've read the article, and the talk pages of all concerned, including Voceditenore who has suffered indignities almost as an innocent bystander. If any one needs any admin intervention, no need to gum up ANI, just contact me direct. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 05:59, 4 September 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, ColonialGrid

I would just like to say thank you for your assessment, which I agree with, overall. I didn't mean to imply that anyone was bad, but felt compelled to attempt to have the date that's listed under my displayed picture, as it appears in the info box, to be complete. Please accept my sincere apologies for having rankled anyone. The other situation, that you happily put an end to, dealt only with my need to stand up for and defend myself against what I felt was an outrageous, unnecessary assault. I wanted a person who apparently joined Wikipedia merely to embarrass me and destroy my credibility to - in a manner of speaking - "put up or shut up," by contributing something significant to the Bazinet page. I concede that my methods may have seemed unorthodox, however, I hope I'll be forgiven for responding the way I did, under the circumstances. Apart from all that, it is my genuine hope that someone will soon come along who will substitute their picture, of René Bazinet, for mine on his page. Thank you once again, for all your past efforts on my behalf, regarding the various issues involved with my contribution, such as it is. Blythe Spirit (talk) 21:22, 4 September 2015 (UTC)