Wikipedia talk:Verifiability

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Frequently asked questions (FAQ)
Where should I ask whether this source supports this statement in an article?
At Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard. Don't forget to tell the editors the full name of the source and the exact sentence it is supposed to support.
Do sources have to be free, online and/or conveniently available to me?
No. Sources can be expensive, print-only, or available only in certain places. A source does not stop being reliable simply because you personally aren't able to obtain a copy. See Wikipedia:Reliable sources/cost. If you need help verifying that a source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Wikipedia:WikiProject Resource Exchange or a relevant WikiProject.
Do sources have to be in English?
No. Sources can be written in any language. However, if equally good sources in English exist, they will be more useful to our readers. If you need help verifying that a non-English source supports the material in the article, ask for help at Wikipedia:Translators available.
I personally know that this information is true. Isn't that good enough to include it?
No. Wikipedia includes only what is verifiable, not what someone believes is true. It must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source that says this. Your personal knowledge or belief is not enough.
I personally know that this information is false. Isn't that good enough to remove it?
Your personal belief or knowledge that the information is false is not sufficient for removal of verifiable and well-sourced material.
Is personal communication from an expert a reliable source?
No. It is not good enough for you to talk to an expert in person or by telephone, or to have a written letter, e-mail message, or text message from a source. Reliable sources must be published.
Are there sources that are "always reliable" or sources that are "always unreliable"?
No. The reliability of a source is entirely dependent on the context of the situation, and the statement it is being used to support. Some sources are generally better than others, but reliability is always contextual.
What if the source is biased?
Sources are allowed to be biased or non-neutral. Only Wikipedia articles are required to be neutral. Sometimes "non-neutral" sources are the best possible sources for supporting information (with due weight) about the different viewpoints held on a controversial subject.
Does every single sentence need to be followed by an inline citation?
No. Only four broad categories of material need to be supported by inline citations. Editors need not supply citations for perfectly obvious material. However, it must be possible to provide a bibliographic citation to a published reliable source for all material.
Are reliable sources required to name the author?
No. Many reliable sources, such as government and corporate websites, do not name their authors or say only that it was written by staff writers. Although many high-quality sources do name the author, this is not a requirement.
Are reliable sources required to provide a list of references?
No. Wikipedia editors should list any required sources in a references or notes section. However, the sources you are using to write the Wikipedia article do not need to provide a bibliography. Most reliable sources, such as newspaper and magazine articles, do not provide a bibliography.
Does anyone read the sources?
Readers do not use the reference list extensively. This research indicates that readers click somewhere in the list of references approximately three times out of every 1,000 page views.

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Non-English sourcesEdit

Recently I read about an editor's rejected edits because the sources used were not in English. This article under "Accessibility->Non-English sources" states where to get translators. What is needs to say unequivocally is that non-English sources are totally acceptable. It should also suggest scanning the non-English source, running it through OCR, and then copying the passages into Google translate which, although not perfect, gives a good idea of what the non-English source is saying. - kosboot (talk) 22:55, 8 December 2021 (UTC)

Not that I would advocate any change in policy, but to note, in reality, non-English sources do do partially insulate the content from the gaze for wp:verifiability and wp:notability. On the former, it's much harder to "prove a negative" when it is not in English. Two factors of this are that the translation loses something, making it much harder to be sure of a "not in source" assessment. Second, when the cite is not specific (e.g. no page number etc.) then trying to review e.g. many pages of so-translated text is difficult to make such an assessment. Even more challenging, those same factors make reviewing it overall to see if it fails wp:GNG requirements very difficult. I'm not advocating for any change in policy, but in the nuances of real-life Wikipedia decisions, a source that somewhat insulates itself from wp:verifiability and wp:GNG scrutiny will be not treated as being as strong.North8000 (talk) 00:46, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
I think that North8000 is wide of the mark here. WP:SOURCE is quite clear on what is, or is not, acceptable: I won't quote it here, anyone can go there and look. It does not say that the source has to be in English. And rightly so, because there may be important sources which do not have English translations. These sources do not, as North8000 suggests, "insulate themselves from wp:verifiability", implying, quite unnecessarily, that they wil be invoked because they deliberately obscure: they will often be encyclopedias, newspaper articles or academic papers that just happen to be written on German, French, Russian or whatever. If we took North8000's criteria to a logical extreme, we would have to exclude, for example, many technical scientific academic papers in English as sources because they were difficult for the layman to construe or assess. Or perhaps we should scrap en.wikipedia and only work with simple.wikipedia...........--Smerus (talk) 15:06, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Smerus, you mis-stated what I said. Reiterating the key point: "Not that I would advocate any change in policy". After that I made a few observations. North8000 (talk) 16:36, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Smerus has said all that needs saying on this matter, I think. Using non-English sources is wholly OK within Wikipedia's rules. And it's a bit silly in these days of Google Translate and other estimable online translation sites to pretend that texts in foreign languages are inaccessible. As Smerus says, highly technical articles written in English can be pretty abstruse even to English speakers – more so than many an article in French or whatever run through an online translator. Tim riley talk 16:22, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
Let me add that not all WP contributors have English as their mother language. They should be able to quote sources in their own language in full confidence, whenever possible with a translation as explained in Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English_sources. Otherwise, which English should one use? British? American? Canadian? Australian? — Hucbald.SaintAmand (talk) 16:58, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
North8000, whereas it is correct that non-English sources, theoretically, should be Ok, there are some parctical considerations that make their usage more risky. The major problem is that standard mechanisms of RS assessment are hard to use for non-English sources. Thus, a significant component of reliability is context: who is the author? what is a reputation of the publisher? does the work meet minimal criteria of fact checking and accuracy? For English sources, all this information can be discussed at RSN or similar places, where several users with different background can make well informed comments, which will allow them to come to some reasonable verdict. In contrast, for non-English sources, it is usually impossible to obtain outside comments from many users. According to this, local Wikipedia topics may become a field of activity of "geopolitically and nationally inclined individuals rather than disinterested enthusiasts", which may lead to a situation when non-English sources may be cherry-picked, selectively cited, manipulated, and the community has no tool to independently evaluate this process and, if needed, to interfere in it.
I personally am trying to avoid non-English sources for the above described reason. The only exceptions are: when the source is cited by English publications (and there is no obvious criticism), when the author is a reasonably high h-factor, or if the source has a good reputation in English media.
I think that it makes sense to discuss possible amendment of the policy, or, at least, guidelines. Paul Siebert (talk) 18:39, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
This came up in the context of classical music, and I find it hard to believe that anyone with a glimmering of understanding of the subject could struggle with the status of WP:RS of Yon, Jean-Claude (2000). Jacques Offenbach, Paris: Gallimard. ISBN 978-2-07-074775-7; Barraqué, Jean (1977). Debussy. Paris: Editions du Seuil. ISBN 978-2-02-000242-4; Prod'homme, Jacques-Gabriel; Alfred Dandelot (1911). Gounod: sa vie et ses oeuvres d'apres des documents inédits, Paris: Delagrave, Gallois, Jean (2004); Charles-Camille Saint-Saëns. Sprimont, Belgium: Éditions Mardaga. ISBN 978-2-87009-851-6 et hoc genus omne. I think the same will plainly apply to other disciplines: it will be pretty clear to anyone interested in a subject which works about it written in foreign languages are authoritative. Tim riley talk 19:02, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
This applies to numerous disciplines, in which the best sources can often be hard to understand by most readers. Yes, fewer editors read non-English languages - but is it not the same for advanced Physics or Mathematics texts? Non-English sources are perfectly acceptable. --GRuban (talk) 23:03, 9 December 2021 (UTC)
@GRuban: Your reference to Physics or Mathematics is not a good argument. In these disciplines, as well as in most other scientific and scholarly disciplines, we have such a tool as citations, h-index, and publisher's reputation. I am not a top expert in, e.g. thermodynamcs, but I can easily see if some concrete source is of high quality or it is a garbage. Number of citations, author's h-index, or publisher's reputation allows non-experts to screen out obviously bad sources.
Nothing of that works for non-English sources that are beyond the scope of main scientific search engine, and for which the mechanism of a neutral assessment of publisher's/author's reputation is not available. Paul Siebert (talk) 20:40, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Quite. Except for the minor difficulty that you still can't actually understand what the high quality source says, and so whether or not it actually supports the point being made in the article. I think this was the theory used by the March Hare in putting butter into the Mad Hatter's watch, because "It was the best butter" --GRuban (talk) 23:13, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
@Kosboot, I have usually found that, in such instances, the necessary conversation sounds like "Hey, did you know about NONENG?" followed by "Oh, sorry, nobody ever told me that before. I just assumed it would be better if English sources were used". Is that approximately how this dispute went? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:22, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

WP:V is clear there's no issue with foreign-language sources, though if we can use an English source for the same information, we should do that. I think the only issue is that it becomes harder to judge reliability of foreign sources, particularly those outside of first world countries (eg we can easily judge Japanese or German sources, but not ones from South Africa or Brazil, for example). But once reliability is set, then use is not an issue beyond the cautions of translation. --Masem (t) 02:14, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

WhatamIdoing I don't know the details of the communication that I relayed, but to me, reverting an editor's edits because the source is a foreign language totally contradicts what Wikipedia is about. In today's world, where English Wikipedia is trying exceptionally hard to broaden its focus away from centering too strongly on Western (or even United States) culture, the idea of giving greater scrutiny to non-English sources - to the point of excluding them - appears to be exactly the opposite of the stated goal.of Wikimedia 2030 strategy. I deal in fields that have centuries worth of history, primarily in foreign languages. While plenty has been translated into English, there is still plenty of information that is not. Asides from that, what about current issues that are in non-English speaking parts ot the world? By that argument, it shouldn't be covered unless it's in the English-language press, which I find as offensive as a bunch of ostriches burying their heads in the sand. As I stated at the outset, I believe at least a sentence has to be inserted indicating that foreign language source that are verifiable are totally acceptable. - kosboot (talk) 02:30, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
@Kosboot, we already have an official policy that says "Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia." Do you think that you need more than that? WhatamIdoing (talk) 05:27, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
WhatamIdoing Absolutely it is needed in the section "Accessibility->Non-English sources. That section simply gives links to translations tools. It does not say that it is allowed. To forestall the event I described at the outset, it has to be clearly stated (perhaps multiple times) and easy to find. - kosboot (talk) 11:39, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
Er - it does say that. "Citations to non-English reliable sources are allowed on the English Wikipedia." That's the first sentence of that section. --GRuban (talk) 12:49, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
The very first sentence in that section has said that citations to non-English sources are allowed since about 2013. Before then, it was still the policy, but we used other words, and we decided that we needed something a little more direct and wikilawyer-proof. We could put it in bold-faced, blinking text, but I don't think it would help, because the primary problem is that Wikipedia:Nobody reads the directions. This type of dispute is usually solved by gently pointing out the existence of WP:NONENG to whoever objected to non-English sources. In my experience, the result is usually them saying "Oops, I didn't know that" rather than them doubling down on their belief.
It sounds like you have heard, secondhand, about an editor who didn't read the directions. But I've got the impression that you don't actually know which article or which editor(s) were involved, which makes it difficult to solve the specific problem. Is my impression correct? WhatamIdoing (talk) 19:03, 10 December 2021 (UTC)
@Masem Just a little BTW... If anyone has doubts about a South African source (in English or any other language) a brief note dropped at WikiProject South Africa will usually result in a fairly quick resolution.
However, your point does raise a related isuue - the general apathy (and even antipathy) of various WikiProjects towards helping to review at AFC and NPP. The vast majority of reviewers are not topic specialists so they do occasionally need help. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 15:47, 5 January 2022 (UTC)

"Reliably published" and web archivesEdit

Many Wikipedia references are the combination of a link to some web site and to its copy in some web archive. It frequently happens that the main link is already dead, and only a web archive is available. Do we really think that the content that is available only from such archives may be considered "reliably published"? Can it be possible that the information that has been withdrawn from main sites cannot be considered verifiable? That may create a dangerous situation when Wikipedia becomes a collection of web archive data. Paul Siebert (talk) 04:52, 13 December 2021 (UTC)

Links often die for reasons other than a deliberate retraction - sites get reorganized or go offline regularly. Nikkimaria (talk) 13:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Furthermore, it is not even required than any source even be available online. Print-only sources are perfectly legitimate. Sources need not be instantly verifiable in order to be used, merely that a person can verify the information. Going to a library and finding a copy of a book qualifies as verifiable just as much as finding a website does. As long as we believe that the archive system reliably reproduces what the online information said at the time, it's perfectly usable. Now, if we have evidence that the source later printed a retraction or we have more recent sources that contradict it, we should take that into account. As always, however, all discussions of reliability of sources should happen in the specific and not in the general. Unless we know the context of the locus of your dispute, we can't meaningfully comment on it. --Jayron32 13:57, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I see no problem with references to offline sources, provided that these references exist. However, if the only information about the source is a dead link and a link to some web archive, this situation is hardly acceptable. IMO, per BURDEN, we need to make good faith efforts to make sure this source still exists (for example, in a form of an offline version), and it still supports this statement, that it was not retracted, altered etc. Paul Siebert (talk) 16:16, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
When something goes off-line, it does not mean it was retracted and that seems an odd assumption, also yes, Wikipedia accepts sources that are in archives, electronic and physical. Alanscottwalker (talk) 17:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
When something goes off-line, that may mean that (i) it was retracted, (ii) it just went off-line, but the source still available in a form of a hard copy, (iii) the source is not available neither in a hard copy nor in any digital form, and a web archive record is the only copy that currently exist. In connection, my question is: can a link to some web archive be considered a reliable source if no other information is available? Paul Siebert (talk) 18:44, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes. We treat electronic archives, like any other archive. --Alanscottwalker (talk) 22:22, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Consider the following example. Some journal articles contain supplementary information. Sometimes, this information is provided as a link, e.g, to the lab's website. In many old articles, these links are dead. It may be possible to find this information at some web archive, but, obviously, that archive is the only publicly available source. Whereas this information can exist somewhere else (for example, on the author's private computer), I doubt that information can be considered a "reliably published". That makes web archives the only source. In connection to that, I repeat my question: if a web archive is the only source of information, can it be considered as a RS?--Paul Siebert (talk) 19:20, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
I repeat my only answer: yes. --Jayron32 19:25, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
Yes. This is the main reason we use links to web archives in this project. --GRuban (talk) 20:09, 13 December 2021 (UTC)
If the URL was live to the public at some point, it was published. If the site was reliable at that point, assuming it hasn't been superseded or retracted, then the archived copy is also reliable. It's the same as a book that is now out of print but available at a library. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:16, 14 December 2021 (UTC)
Paul, where are you getting this wording about "reliably published"? I don't remember seeing that phrase anywhere in WP:V. We care whether a given source is reliable for a given bit of information. One common (but not mandatory) method of determining whether a source should be relied on is to consider the publication process (e.g., peer review). But I don't think that the sourcing policies have any concept of a source being "reliably published". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:58, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The current wording of the policy is "reliable, published". I am not sure, but I recall some time ago it said "reliably published". Actually, yes, the exact text is "reliable, published". Paul Siebert (talk) 17:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The meaning of "a reliable, published source" is "a source that is both reliable and published". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:14, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
I'm going to agree with most everyone else above that a dead link but with an archived copy from Wayback or similar source is still a reliable source. But I would add that we should be very selective of what are these archive sites, ones that we know only mirror a page and do not alter content (eg that they reliably archive). Wayback is good, is good, and I'm sure there's a few others. As a counter example, a copy of an article posted in a forum being used as the archiveurl source would not be appropriate as we have no idea on the reliability of that forum. --Masem (t) 13:15, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Maybe, it makes sense to make a list of trustworthy and reliable archives? It will hardly be long. Paul Siebert (talk) 17:16, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Why does Wikipedia:List of web archives on Wikipedia not meet your needs in this regard? It's only existed on Wikipedia for four and a half years... --Jayron32 18:53, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
I am not saying that this list does not "meet my needs". However, this list does not seem to be directly linked to our policy. If the content of that page was approved by the community, why cannot we include the link to WP:SOURCES? For example:
Materials that were published online, but that are currently available only from reliable archives can be used if they meet other reliable source criteria.
-- Paul Siebert (talk) 19:09, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Our policy is that a reliability is not tied intrinsically to the way that the source is published. The reliability of the original source doesn't change when the website that hosted that source changes; the original citation is still valid even if the source is now only available in an archive. WP:RS states "The term "published" is most commonly associated with text materials, either in traditional printed format or online; however, audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources. (bold mine) Let me head you off as well: No, you aren't going to get a canonical and complete list of "reputable" archives, and you never will. Just like we don't maintain a full list of reliable sources for people to refer to, and only list the criteria for people to assess on their own in good faith, archives are treated similarly. The archive services noted above are under no suspicion of falsifying their archives, and are as reputable can be, AFAIK. That's good enough. --Jayron32 19:50, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
The full list of reliable sources is intrinsically long and constantly grows. In contrast, the number of web archives cannot be big by definition. Paul Siebert (talk) 20:02, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
There is no such list on Wikipedia. I'm not sure why you think there is. --Jayron32 11:58, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
A web archive is not a source… it is a repository where the source can be located (like a library for hard copy paper books).
We should not actually CITE the archive… we should CITE the original web page, and NOTE that it is hosted on the archive (and provide a courtesy link). This would be like including a note that a rare paper book can be found in a specific library’s collection. Blueboar (talk)
That returns us to my original point: what if the online source was archived, but the original link is dead? And how can we make sure that that dead link is not a fake?--Paul Siebert (talk) 20:00, 16 December 2021 (UTC)
Have you ever had any serious reason to be suspicious of this, or is this hypothetical so far? WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:15, 17 December 2021 (UTC)
It would be incorrect to say that my initial post was inspired by this, but that RSN discussion was one of examples.
Of course, removal of some content from the publisher's web site does not automatically mean that the source is not reliable any more, however, that is usually not a good sign either. Paul Siebert (talk) 23:07, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
It sounds like your main idea is that a published source stops being reliable if the publisher doesn't continually say the same thing. This runs into the Argument ad absurdum problem very quickly: "The newspaper says ____ today, but tomorrow, it says something different! Therefore, the newspaper isn't reliable!" Or "The book is out of print! The publisher probably just didn't think it worthwhile to re-print it, but the publisher might have secretly meant to repudiate the contents. Therefore, the book isn't reliable!"
There are real concerns with "discontinued" content, but it's not a question of the source being unusable. You'd just need to be careful about how you use it: "In 2016, Organization said..." or "Three weeks before the election, the survey said..." WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:57, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
If you have evidence that an article has been retracted, or see that the source is not reputable, archived or not, the citation should be dropped. If the source was updated with errata, it's also a good idea to update it. Otherwise, the archive is usually useful, especially if it's stored on a main archive that does not have a reputation for forged entries and that can also delete them for legal reasons (i.e. If the source is simply outdated (i.e. too old) and can easily be replaced, that's also a good idea, of course (making sure the text reflects the new source). —PaleoNeonate – 01:46, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Self Published Sources and their claims about third partiesEdit

Policy is clear and has been repeatedly explained. Beeblebrox (talk) 21:12, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

WP:SPS states Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they are published experts in the field, so long as: (..) it does not involve claims about third parties;. Does that mean that in the article Project Veritas I can't add the statement <redacted> If not, then why? Thanks. -- Barecode (talk) 18:16, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Have third party sources brought this up or is Project Veritas the only ones that are covering this? If it’s only them I wouldn’t included mainly due to it being a WP:BLP issue regarding Rick Saleeby since their past news coverage has been controversial to say the least.-- (talk) 21:43, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
This is not an article about <redacted> so I don't understand why this information is not allowed in the Project Veritas article. If QAnon claims that George W. Bush is eating newborns, it is wrong to add that claim in the article George W. Bush but what is wrong in adding that claim in the QAnon article? I don't understand why the claims should not involve third parties, in articles about SPS. What is wrong with that? I would like some examples why is that wrong. Any policy should be justified - as opposed to being dictated. Why this policy? What kind of possible negative effects it prevents? -- Barecode (talk) 22:14, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Because airing a claim about anybody on Wikipedia from a SPS is a direct violation of WP:BLPSPS, and trying to argue it's somehow not a claim about a person by re-framing it at a remove is just game playing. If any such "claim" is worthy of inclusion it would be mentioned in a decent source. Alexbrn (talk) 22:20, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
Alexbrn - What are you talking about? Where did I argue that "it's somehow not a claim"? You can reframe something as something but can't re-frame something at something. The former is false and the later is a complete unintelligible nonsense. I didn't even mention any remove. It is not the first time when you jump into a discussion by trying to create outrage. How is asking a question about a policy "game playing"??
The articles about SPS can contain statements which are not mentioned in any decent source and those statements are worthy of inclusion. Please read the policy: "Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves". Therefore in such articles you can use questionable sources and decent sources are not necessary - when you describe their activity. You are not trying to make a conversation, you are extremely aggressive, you dictate the truth and you are bullying. -- Barecode (talk) 22:48, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
For everyone else: Why the QAnon article can mention this claim "A February 16, 2018, false claim that U.S. representative and former Democratic National Committee chairwoman Debbie Wasserman Schultz hired Salvadoran gang MS-13 to murder DNC staffer Seth Rich"
While in the same time Project Veritas article can't mention the statement <redacted> I don't understand how this policy applies, why it was created and what kind of negative effects it tries to prevent. -- Barecode (talk) 22:48, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
The Qanon claim about Wasserman is clearly marked as 'false' and is not cited to self published sources, which are both important differences. - MrOllie (talk) 22:51, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
MrOllie - Thank you. Is there any policy or manual or guide or essay that mentions those requirements? I mean you can't expect an editor to figure it all out by themselves. As the answers above show, the people who answered before you did not figure such things eiter. -- Barecode (talk) 22:56, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
@Barecode: Because if you're wanting to say somebody stands accused of a specific crime, and the only source for that is an SPS, it's a claim about a living person sourced to an SPS. It might be a libel, it might be wrong, it might end up with you and/or the WMF in court. Doing that kind of thing is a sure-fire way to get a block or ban. (And that's just the BLP aspect before we even get to the NPOV problems). Alexbrn (talk) 23:01, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Alexbrn - Making an error about a BLP can make you get a ban? What the heck are you talking about? Can you provide any example of an editor who got blocked or banned for that? And how exactly you break NPOV by adding such a claim? It's not my claim, it's their (PV claim). The claim already exists, quoting it is perfectly neutral and since it's not in an article about <redacted>, but instead in the very article about the source, mentioning that claim is not bad faith. You mean any news outlet who dares to properly quote Project Veritas can get sued? I can understand that caution is advised in such cases and what I am asking is how much caution exactly an editor has to use. That's why I'm asking if such requirements as those mentioned by MrOllie are mentioned in any policy/guide/essay - so the editors can understand how to apply this policy. As you can see you didn't figure that by yourself and you came with some unsupported claims in your previous message. -- 23:25, 18 December 2021 (UTC) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Barecode (talkcontribs)

I'm confused at how you can be using the 'BLP' acronym without having read WP:BLP, which is the policy that covers this. No claims about third parties from self published sources. It doesn't matter if the claim is in some other article. It doesn't matter if you phrase it as 'Project Veritas says'. No claims about third parties from self published sources. - MrOllie (talk) 23:30, 18 December 2021 (UTC)
MrOllie - I'll skip the rude part - which somehow implied that you have to obey the policy and you are not supposed to ask questions about it. My question was: In the articles about SPS you can make an exception from RS and therefore why you can't make an exception about BLP. The QAnon article contains QAnon claims about third parties. I was asking why the same can't applied for the Project Veritas. You explained why. And it makes sense indeed: combining combined effect of WP:SLS and WP:BLP which seem to be justified by extra caution, it makes sense. Yet I am asking why the extra caution because it doesn't look necessary in such cases. Also I am suggesting explaining such details with such examples in a guide because as you can see not everyone can figure this by themselves. While your observations about QAnon article are correct, the requirements are not listed anywhere and also it's not even clear if there are more requirements. Say for example PV tomorrow removes that claim. Having a screenshot and archiving the link somewhere can help to actually add in the PV article the information about false claim they made. I'm not sure that's a bad after all. But anyways, I prefer to close this discussion before having a chance to be accused of creating a time sink, wasting people time or trolling. -- Barecode (talk) 00:01, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

I'm going to repeat what I wrote on your talk page:

Your addition of content sourced to Project Veritas is a serious BLP violation and has been reverted. No RS have commented on this matter, and the source you used did not say what you wrote in your edit. Be more careful. Project Veritas is not a RS.
The name of that CNN person is mentioned on Fox News (we generally try to avoid using Fox News) from a story in 2019 where he revealed and commented on the unseemly behavior of another CNN producer who stepped down.[1] These are two very different stories.

Unsourced or poorly sourced negative information about any living or recently dead person is not allowed at Wikipedia. Negative information that is due will be found in multiple high quality sources. Negative content may (or may not) be added when using such sources. Local consensus will determine if the content has due weight for mention. The WP:3rr rule does not apply to anyone removing a BLP violation. It must be removed immediately.

Project Veritas is a horribly unreliable source. No RS have even mentioned this matter, if it really is a matter. Time will tell. Whenever you encounter such negative matters, make sure that multiple RS mention it. In such cases, BLP has further guidance at WP:PUBLICFIGURE. Public figures are more vulnerable than private persons. They enjoy more protection here at Wikipedia. -- Valjean (talk) 05:03, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

Valjean - Thanks. I wasn't asking for a revert. I was asking why the policy should be applied like that. As for the article: it is the continuation of another article that I've seen on PV's Twitter feed one day before that. <redacted> The next day <redacted>. After that, [ Twitter suspended the account Project Veritas used to post their video exposing <redacted>. I didn't even know the story was also published by Fox News. I'm not convinced that such statements should not be included in the articles about the SPS. I mean I'm not convinced the policy should be designed this way. But I'm not going to ask for changing the policy since I'm not interested to do that and I don't believe it would be productive anyways. Every person is entitled to have an opinion. As long as you respect the rule it doesn't matter if you agree or you disagree with that rule. -- Barecode (talk) 05:33, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
The story was not published by Fox News, and even if it had been, I'd be cautious about using it for such an allegation. I'd want to use much better sources. -- Valjean (talk) 05:46, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
Barecode, what part of "claims about third parties" do you not understand? What you're doing is very serious. We do not use SPS and/or unreliable sources for claims about others ("third party"), only "about themselves".
Self-published and questionable sources may be used as sources of information about themselves, usually in articles about themselves or their activities, without the self-published source requirement that they are published experts in the field, so long as: (..) it does not involve claims about third parties;. (bold in original)
The SPS is Project Veritas (PV), and the third party is the named CNN producer. This isn't about PV making a comment about PV ("about articles about themselves or their activities". That means (1) not about others than themselves or (2) anywhere at Wikipedia other than the article about the SPS (PV). PV can only comment about PV at the PV article. They cannot comment about others anywhere at Wikipedia. (I know I'm repeating myself in different ways, but hopefully one of these ways will be understood by you.)
Will this story make it into multiple RS? If it's true, it will. Until then, we remain silent, even on talk pages, as BLP also applies to them. We are not the National Enquirer, New York Post, Project Veritas, or Breitbart. A simple Google search of his name doesn't turn up a single RS for this time period. How can you fail to do this simplest of steps in due diligence? If multiple RS do cover the story, we then have to determine whether he is a public person or not. He isn't notable enough to even have an article here, so that tells me he's likely not even covered by WP:Public figure which might allow some mention. A private person enjoys much more protection here.
Project Veritas is infamous for making secret recordings and videos of left-wingers and other ideological opponents and then editing them so they often misrepresent what actually happened. They have been exposed many times for doing this. You have chosen a horrible source, looked at WP:SPS, and then done exactly what is forbidden. Didn't you read what you wrote in the heading above? What NOT to do is written right there. -- Valjean (talk) 18:04, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Okay, we've reached the point where it seems that, for whatever reason, the OP is just not getting it, and in the meantime has created a lot of content in this thread which is problematic per WP:BLP and which likely needs a revdel. Is there an admin in the house who can do that, and put this editor on a better path? Alexbrn (talk) 19:10, 19 December 2021 (UTC)
  • Barecode, apologies for any repetition in my response but the following policies are applicable WP:PAGs: WP:BLPSPS - Never use self-published sources—including but not limited to books, zines, websites, blogs, and tweets—as sources of material about a living person, unless written or published by the subject of the article.
  1. The first red flag is that a living person is the subject of the article which was neither written by nor published by that person.
  2. Second red flag is the clickbait headlines, and the fact that not even one responsible media outlet has published anything about this case which makes it WP:BLPGOSSIP.
  3. It is always better to err on the side of caution when people's lives are involved, WP:BLPREMOVE, WP:BLPCRIME.
Following is an example of allegations/arrests involving CNN staff and what we could but should not include at this point in time:CNN article about a different CNN producer who was actually charged and arrested which can be cited to and added to the CNN article, and/or possibly included in the BLP (if one existed) using inline text attribution; however, it is not advisable even though the story is corroborated by this NBC article. There are probably other RS in the echo chamber that can be cited, but to find them may require using duckduckgo in lieu of Google. I'm of the mind that such additions to our encyclopedia are neither advisable nor beneficial to our readers at this point in time per WP:NOTNEWS and WP:BREAKING; WP:BNS is another good read. I invite you to consider WP:New pages patrol/School and at the very least, feel free to review the material at our site which may prove beneficial. Happy editing! Atsme 💬 📧 20:31, 19 December 2021 (UTC)

WP:SELFPUB and the definition of a subject-matter expert.Edit

WP:SELFPUB currently links to our article space definition of "subject-matter expert." Should we have a supplemental page giving general guidance about what a subject-matter expert is in Wikipedia terms, in the same way we have one for non-public figures and the like? --Aquillion (talk) 03:10, 22 December 2021 (UTC)

@Aquillion, what prompted you to ask this? WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:12, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
I ask, partly because you might get a more relevant answer, but also because the other half of the sentence defines SME for WP:V's purposes. An author is a subject-matter expert if, and only if, their "work in the relevant field has previously been published by reliable, independent publications". WhatamIdoing (talk) 08:14, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
A subject matter expert is someone whose opinion can be safely ignored unless published in a preferably green RS. This applies to my opinion as well:) Selfstudier (talk) 10:05, December 23, 2021‎ (UTC)
SMEs aren't necessarily being cited for "opinions". They are frequently being cited for "facts". WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:09, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
SMEs sometimes have differences of opinion as to what the “facts” actually are. A good rule of thumb when this occurs is: phrase the “facts” as an opinion and attribute. Blueboar (talk) 12:35, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
  • The problem with any definition is that even “experts” can occasionally have wacky fringe opinions. If an “expert’s” opinions are usually published in reliable sources, but a specific opinion isn’t… we probably need to pause, and ask “why not?”. Blueboar (talk) 18:18, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
    • Yes, in keeping with the idea that the source is reliable, not necessarily the author, the source is vouching for that particular article by the author, not everything written by that author. A reputable source may publish a sensible article by an author but refuse to publish their fringe ideas. If an author gets too fringe, they may find that all reasonable sources freeze them out, so they retreat to Substack, like Greenwald has done. -- Valjean (talk) 19:37, 23 December 2021 (UTC)
      • This contradicts the meaning of "source" as given in the policy. It also appears to rely on the wiki-myth that publishers "fact-check" articles they publish. Except in very limited circumstances, such as mathematics journals, it simply isn't true. Zerotalk 13:00, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
        • Under our policy, even if a reliable source doesn't chase down every fact in a non op-ed piece, they are vouching for the integrity of the work when it is published and should they later discover there was a major incorrect fact, key for us is that they will not hesitate to issue a redaction of the wrong information (if not the whole work). Eg: it is still why Lancet is considered a reliable journal despite being involved in some cases like Lancet MMR autism fraud, because they take those types of steps.
        • I would tend to agree that for self-pub writings of SMEs that are not considered opinion, we really want those to be highlighted by a primary or secondary RS that 1) given weight to why that SEM themselves is important and 2) that give reasonable weight of trust to the truth/validity of their factual statements. Opinions are different, though that's where UNDUE factors come into play, as some topics have tons of "SMEs" that we may have to figure out how to pick out the most relevant, but that's a separate problem. --Masem (t) 13:24, 27 December 2021 (UTC)
          • I think that Valjean meant "the publisher is vouching for that particular article by the author", not that the source (e.g., the article itself) is vouching for itself. WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:48, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
            • That's exactly what I meant. Thanks for wording it better. -- Valjean (talk) 04:02, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
              • That's how I took it, and it is why I disagree. It is almost always the case that the author is more expert on the article topic than the publisher. Giving the publisher the right to assign reliability even when the author is an acknowledged expert is contrary to what we should be doing, namely making Wikipedia as accurate as possible within the bounds of WP:NOR. Zerotalk 04:40, 29 December 2021 (UTC)
                • If a RS republishes a work written by an SME as a non-op-ed piece, that's lending greater weight to 1) that the author is likely an SME and 2) that the publisher generally respects that what is written is likely factually correct. Whereas the second point still means the SME is the more expert source than the publisher, the first point for us is critical as it shows evidence the person is a SME (due to the RS's selection) and that using that work would likely be appropriate per WP:DUE. To contrast, an SME publishing on Medium or their personal blog likely doesn't change too much related to the factual correctness, but unless we have previously come to agreement that the person is an SME, that type of self-publishing doesn't necessarily help in a UNDUE/DUE discussion. Or more simply: today more than ever there are lots of "armchair SMEs" that write in blogs about stuff they know, and while some are likely true experts and reliable, the lack of a separate RS given their blessing by publishing these works should cause us to have some doubt to the weight of their work compare to what's actually covered in RSes. --Masem (t) 13:29, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

IMO Wp:reliable source is about having certain trappings, not about actual reliability. You can't override it by arguing that a source has actual reliability. I say this flippantly (and in a bid to someday tweak policy), but in this case it means that the rules clearly are the rules, especially a core rule of a core policy. North8000 (talk) 12:42, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

I suspect that this new-fangled "GUNREL" idea is about having certain trappings, but I don't think that's true for WP:RS. The Time Cube website has none of those trappings, and it was accepted being reliable for certain statements (about itself). WhatamIdoing (talk) 03:50, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

The 'Experts Blog' is probably where this arises most and it depends on (you guessed it, CONTEXT) what wiki text it is being used for (no we are probably not going to use it in medical, say), and the circumstances of the blog. An experts blog is not necessarily "fringe", sometimes it just explicates an idea, an event, or connection that is within the mainstream but goes into detail in a particularly clear and accessible way. Alanscottwalker (talk) 13:48, 27 December 2021 (UTC)

+1 to Alan's comment. See also WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT (if you understood the expert's blog instead of the expert's jargon-filled academic paper, then cite the blog), and note the |laysummary= options in some CS1 templates. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:27, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

I linked this discussion at Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Deprecated and unreliable sources Selfstudier (talk) 10:33, 29 December 2021 (UTC)

  • Some background history… and a question: when we created the “Expert exemption”, we were really thinking of academics who had previously published in reliable journals, text books and other academic sources. Perhaps the root of the current problem is that the concept been extended beyond academia… (for example, to journalism). Is this the case? Blueboar (talk) 16:21, 30 December 2021 (UTC)
    @Blueboar, I'm not sure that we ever intended to include "professional content creators" (e.g., journalists) in this category. Separately I am not sure that we should include content creators in this category. Consider:
    • We know that Alice Expert is an expert about her academic field because she published peer-reviewed journal articles and a university-press book. Therefore, she's an "expert" for SPS.
    • We know that Tommy Train is an expert about trains because he published a series of articles in Trains Today. He's also been quoted as a subject-matter expert in multiple other publications. Therefore, he's an "expert" for SPS.
    • Nova News, on the other hand, has written about a wide variety of subjects. All the news that fits, they print. Nova is normally quoted in their capacity as a journalist, not as a non-journalistic source of expertise. Therefore, I'd say that Nova is *not* an expert.
    The line could certainly blur, and WP:NEWSBLOGS complicate matters. But I'd say that "official" news blogs (not those written by freelancers) also un-complicate matters, by letting us use the news blogs published by the newspaper without referring to SPS at all. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:31, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

Do magazines need to be mainstream?Edit

I'm asking this in reply to Sangdeboeuf's recent update here [2]. The short version is they changed the list of normally reliable sources from "magazines" to "mainstream magazines". I think that generally makes sense as it follows the same for "mainstream newspapers". However, my concern/comment/question is will people read this to mean "non-mainstream" is generally considered not reliable? Consider magazines such as Sport Aviation or Racecar Engineering. I wouldn't consider either to be a mainstream magazine yet both are very good sources within their respective fields. Also, compared to many of our normal reliable sources these magazines are likely more authoritative within their narrow fields of expertise. I'm sure the same could be said about various trade/interest specific magazines. Is the change to "mainstream magazine" going to result sources like these being treated as unreliable? Should "mainstream" be read as "mainstream within the subject area in question"? Is this much ado about nothing? Springee (talk) 04:45, 2 January 2022 (UTC)

The previous version of the policy ("magazines and mainstream newspapers") implies that magazines by default are more reliable than newspapers, which, imo, is illogical. In that sense, the updated policy is more consistent.
However, the word "mainstream" is somewhat ambiguous. We already tried to come to some common understanding of what "mainstream newspapers" is supposed to mean, and that discussion lead to no clear result. I am afraid, the same story will repeat here: everybody understand the word "mainstream" differently. Paul Siebert (talk) 04:58, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • My first inclination is to agree with you: for one thing "mainstream" is too fuzzy for the uses to which this rule is put. But there are a lot of weird magazines out there. Perhaps we need to expand how WP:RS/N & WP:RS/PS operate, if there's a need to evaluate the vast universe of magazines? — Charles Stewart (talk) 05:06, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Fair point about hobbyist magazines. Maybe "quality magazines" or "reputable magazines" would be better phrasing? We want to be cautious of mags devoted to gossip, titillation, or pseudoscience, while still approving of reliable, specialist publications. --Sangdeboeuf (talk) 06:18, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
    Gossip magazines can be very useful sources for information, especially if you're writing articles about celebrities. People, Entertainment Weekly, Vanity Fair, even Us Weekly – they're all gossip magazines, and editors use them. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:49, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I agree that "mainstream" is not good. It can be taken as excluding "specialist" magazines, which is contrary to reliability. Zerotalk 08:57, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • While "mainstream newspapers" generally can be taken to mean papers with strong editorial practices, "mainstream magazines" to me would include things like Us, People, and other magazines you can find at the supermarket checkout, and while these aren't unreliable, they tend to lend more to gossip and the like. Whereas clear reliable magazines, such as Time, Wired, and US News + World Report are less "mainstream". --Masem (t) 14:10, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • ”Mainstream” on Wikipedia usually means “non-fringe”. My guess is that this was added at a time when we had a spate of citations to fringe magazines. Blueboar (talk) 15:17, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
    I think this would be a less "obvious" addition if newspapers weren't described that way. I wonder whether we could usefully change "mainstream newspapers" to "daily newspapers". Weekly newspapers aren't unreliable or necessarily disreputable, but that might give people the right general idea: the thing printed with ink on paper that you and all your neighbors get every morning (or "got", in previous decades), with information about what your own city government is doing, is the thing we're talking about. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:55, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
    How about "established"? Meaning, regularly-published for sufficient time to establish a reputation that can be evaluated? Schazjmd (talk) 00:00, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
    Reputable? WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:12, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
    @Masem:@Blueboar: then why we don't replace "mainstream newspapers" with "newspapers with strong editorial practices", and, accordingly, "non-fringe magazines"? Paul Siebert (talk) 23:59, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
    I think you start get into circular definitions then - "reliable sources are this..." "Some examples of reliable sources are newspapers + magazines that have this..." I think the idea is that "mainstream newspaper" generally refers to those with national to international distribution as at that scale, you better be reliable for day-to-day, whereas with magazines, those with the highest distribution tend to be sub-tier reliability (but not unreliable), while leaving the niche magazines with national circulation as the most reliable ones. --Masem (t) 02:23, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
    That makes sense if what we are citing it for is current events, but otherwise the opposite is usually true. For example, a typical science magazine is more reliable for science than a mainstream newspaper, and a specialised academic journal even more so. The moral is that I don't think we should ordain sources as "reliable" without qualification but always try to specify what they are reliable for. Zerotalk 05:27, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
    It might be best (both from the practical and theoretical standpoints) to fix the "These are reliable sources" part. It's not really possible for something to be a reliable source without considering what it is reliable for. Even the most reputable, mainstream newspaper is not really a reliable source for certain things (e.g., causes of cancer). WhatamIdoing (talk) 01:41, 7 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I think we are all beating around the same issue, we want to discourage low quality magazines and encourage quality ones regardless of circulation, even circulation in the subject area (RC Engineering Magazine is quite expensive so it's circulation in minimal). Does it work to say "quality/respected magazines" or is that just trying to avoid stating the obviously circular "reliable magazines"? Springee (talk) 15:23, 2 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I am very much against using the word 'mainstream' for anything about requirements for sources. Well established and reliable is quite a different thing from mainstream. We should definitely not be excluding newspapers or magazines because they aren't run by huge conglomerates reproducing what Reuters or governments say and read by millions of people. Being read by millions or being run by a big company is not a defence against fringe and being fairly small is not a strong indicator of fringe. If people want to discuss sources there's WP:RSN andthere's WP:RSP for where the same thing keeps coming up. Media bias describes enough problems with mainstream sources without us baking it into policy. NadVolum (talk) 20:00, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
I believe Blueboar is correct and 'mainstream' was put in as meaning 'non-fringe'. However I have had problems with people who think t means publications with millions of readers and that ones with only some tens of thousands should be ignored. It is too confusing a word. 'Non-fringe' is pretty clear and unambiguous, if that is what is meant then that should be there instead of mainstream everywhere except perhaps where fringe is being discussed where the meaning as non-fringe is pretty apparent. I'm not sure it really covers what people want though, just saying newspapers and magazines conforming to WP:NEWSORG would be fine I think. WP:POLICY#Content has 'be clear' as its first advice for policies and guidelines. 'Mainstream' is definitely not clear in this context. NadVolum (talk) 11:32, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
  • I think of "mainstream" with respect to NPOV and WEIGHT, but not to individual sources where the criteria would be difficult to define and test. At best, the addition of "mainstream" would add no useful guidance. SPECIFICO talk 20:29, 5 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Agree that more specification is needed. "Mainstream" does sound exclusive of specialization. Hyperbolick (talk) 11:35, 6 January 2022 (UTC)
  • There are many sources in academic areas for example that are reliable for those areas and may even be the most reliable sources for the information. However, I'm not even sure what mainstream might mean in this and many instances. We have to be careful of tossing around terms that generalize, that are appropriate in one situation but not another, and as in this example may have nothing to do with the reliable sources we might need.Littleolive oil (talk) 03:55, 7 January 2022 (UTC)

Peer-reviewed sources that use Wikipedia as a source of raw dataEdit

Sometimes, I see peer-reviewed publications that cite Wikipedia as a source of raw data. I know that Wikipedia is not a reliable source for itself, so the source that just reproduce some fact from Wikipedia is definitely not acceptable. But what should we do with peer-reviewed publications that take some data from Wikipedia (along with other sources), perform their analysis and come to some conclusion? I have an impression that the number of this type sources is increasing. Paul Siebert (talk) 21:44, 10 January 2022 (UTC)

  • A reliable, even a scholarly source like this, for example, can make references to any number of unreliable sources like WP, even Kavkaz Center, etc. That does not make any source less reliable. Actually, it does not matter at all if any RS mentioned something in WP. The criteria for deciding how good was the source are completely different. The policy does not say "Do not use any academic book that made a reference to Wikipedia", and rigthly so. That would be ridiculous. My very best wishes (talk) 02:50, 11 January 2022 (UTC)
  • For context I guess Paul may be referring to the Engel-Di Mauro paper where the author states that "Capitalism's war-related death toll so far exceeds 150 million," citing Wikipedia. "The data are mainly from Wikipedia," the author explains, specifically our List of wars by death toll. I don't think that is acceptable. That said, citing Wikipedia like is done in the paper Measuring article quality in wikipedia: models and evaluation is totally fine. --Nug (talk) 23:15, 11 January 2022 (UTC)

I think that My very best wishes has the right answer from a policy perspective; policy/guidelines do not forbid using it. . But I agree with Nug that for the case given, (and the specific case is what really matters in Wikipedia because many factors are taken into consideration) the source should not be used. North8000 (talk) 03:17, 12 January 2022 (UTC)

  • I am sure that the question was intended as a general question (it was not about any specific source). And it is an important question. It is very common that contributors are trying to discredit RS they do not like just because these RS use "unreliable sources" (from WP perspective) or even WP itself in the list of references. Saying that such RS are not RS just because they use "unreliable sources" as references is wrong and contrary to the policy. This is because authors of such RS do not trust anything that blatantly unreliable sources (like WP) say, but only use them to illustrate certain points whatever they might be. My very best wishes (talk) 04:01, 12 January 2022 (UTC)
    I agree with My very best wishes. Whether any specific source is reliable for any specific statement (and the Engel-Di Mauro paper would not be reliable for a statement like "Capitalism caused X million deaths") is a separate problem. WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:56, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
I agree this source should not used for such statement, but this is not just because it uses WP for referencing. My very best wishes (talk) 02:20, 20 January 2022 (UTC)
  • This is is a good example of why we should always ask “is source X reliable for verifying statement Y in article Z” and not just “is source X reliable”. It is quite possible for an otherwise reliable source to be deemed unreliable for a specific fact or conclusion. Context is important. Blueboar (talk) 13:53, 15 January 2022 (UTC)
  • Blueboar states it properly. Beyond that, the entire concept of 'reliable source' is a misdirection that would be better framed and presented as 'reliable sourcing' for a specific fact or conclusion. Can someone point to a discussion about the naming of Wikipedia:Reliable sources and related pages that considered naming as 'Wikipedia:Reliable sourcing'? I don't see this discussed in WT:V or WT:RS archives. Humanengr (talk) 06:55, 19 January 2022 (UTC)
    @Humanengr, from 2010 to early 2019, the guideline was named WP:Identifying reliable sources. This was partly due to people looking at the Wikipedia:Reliable sources title and thinking that it meant that the page was supposed to provide a list of reliable sources. In what I believe was not a coincidence, but rather a move indicative of a trend away from editors caring about whether the source supports a specific fact or conclusion in a Wikipedia article and instead focusing primarily on the overall reputation of the periodical/publisher, the guideline was moved back to the original/potentially misleading name a couple of months after Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Perennial sources was established. WhatamIdoing (talk) 00:50, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

WP: V has an RFCEdit


WP: V has an RFC for possible consensus. A discussion is taking place. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments on the discussion page. Thank you.--Kyohyi (talk) 17:49, 13 January 2022 (UTC)

This originally had an additional section heading: ==RFC Concerning WP: SPS and WP: BLPSPS== WhatamIdoing (talk) 04:43, 15 January 2022 (UTC)


IS:Vedarius A. Russell 11/24/199# The Owner of Youtac RS/UTAC/UtacK/ and creator. Business entrepreneur, Sagittarius. lover and Novembers Very own. — Preceding unsigned comment added by YoutacrsVARs (talkcontribs) 04:28 19 January 2022 (UTC)

This looks like a case of WP:WRONGVENUE. 🐶 EpicPupper (he/him | talk) 20:48, 19 January 2022 (UTC)