Talk:Ramsdell Theatre

GA Reassessment

Ramsdell Theatre

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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Article (edit | visual edit | history) · Article talk (edit | history) · Watch • Watch article reassessment page • Most recent review

Result: There is a consensus that Doug Coldwell content has been sufficiently excised from the article, and enough new sources introduced, to allow its retention as a GA. Thanks to all who worked to save this GA. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 13:59, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

I worked on this article along with DC and was the GA Nominator. I am opening a GAR to see if its present GA status can be salvaged. Or not. My preliminary work on the references can be seen on the article's talk page at Working through this article's refs per the individual GAR. Shearonink (talk) 16:16, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Problematic phrase in the lead says - "considered one of the best opera houses"...is not what the source states at all. The present-day source - History of Ramsdell Theatre (online/website) states "The Theatre was comparable to the best opera and vaudeville houses at the time of its construction" and also, that is what is stated in the body of the article. Have adjusted lead. Shearonink (talk) 16:25, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

That kind of content should have a more independent source; I'd delete it altogether. By the way, this is classic DC (re "first facts" and superlatives unsupported by sources). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:10, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Yep... For now I;ve adjusted it to what the website actually says. Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

The description paragraph that starts with "The theatre features a double balcony" is problematic. "Double balcony" is from what source. "Hipped roof" is from what source. "Closely spaced teeth-like block modillion cornice" is problematic. And so on and so on. I am trying to find a source for all these specific statements because it sure ain't all from the source at the end of the paragraph... Shearonink (talk) 17:10, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Because he typically took stuff from other sources and then attached different citations; hence WP:PDEL. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:11, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh I know, I know... Shearonink (talk) 18:21, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Well at least I now have that paragraph sourced. Shearonink (talk) 20:55, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

I've run into a problem just now running "Who Wrote That?" It isn't picking up large chunks of the article, some of the article text is greyed-out when I hover my cursor over it. Shearonink (talk) 21:22, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Nevermind. There was a stray bit of code in the article that made all the text after it "go grey". Shearonink (talk) 22:25, 25 February 2023 (UTC)

Have continued working my way through the article's prose/statements and refs - think it is much improved at this point. If anyone wants to look in and give some feedback would appreciate comments/thoughts/whatever. Thanks, Shearonink (talk) 17:12, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

As in all of DC's work, if you don't clean up the citations, faulty sourcing is not easily spotted. For example:

• The citation for https://web.archive.org/web/20070611074732/http://www.manisteedowntown.com/Manistee_History.htm has no publisher listed, so we don't easily see it's not a third-party source

"Third-party source". Ok...A DDA is a part of local government in Michigan, I don't see using information from "Manistee Downtown" as a problem, have updated the parameter of Publisher.Shearonink (talk) 19:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

• While https://ramsdelltheatre.org/history/ is correctly cited and we can see it is not a third-party source

Both are used to cite the content:

• In 1953 actor James Earl Jones had his start here as a stage carpenter and in the 1955 through the 1957 summer seasons as an actor and stage manager.[5] His first portrayal of Shakespeare’s Othello was on stage at the Ramsdell in 1955.[3] He has returned twice to support fundraising efforts for the restoration project.[3]

This is classic DC, who loved "firsts", and found newspaper clippings or non-independent sources to back statements, but rarely did the extra work to check if these non-independent claims were true. Unless you can find a non-Manistee source to back this claim, I'd say remove it. James Earl Jones makes the same claim based on the same source (the Ramsdell), but if you read the timeline, it looks like he got his start at UMich. Similarly, again, you have to carefully scrutinize everything here; this is an indication more work is still needed (the first I checked). SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:33, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Here you go:

• https://www.annarbor.com/entertainment/james-earl-jones-feature/
• http://ucmapps.oakland.edu/NewsArchive/Data/20060125-James-Earl-Jones-delivers-lecture-on-culture.html
• https://www.theintelligencer.com/news/article/HONORING-BLACK-HISTORY-MONTH-James-Earl-Jones-15940436.php references a Jones autobiography that could be consulted. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:48, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Best I can tell from Google snippets, his autobiography is "Voices and Silences", and snippets indicate he never mentions Ramsdell ... would be nice to get hold of that book. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 01:09, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

• Your understanding of the "snippets" is incomplete. And the sources that are cited in the article have the information correct. Nevertheless.
• The sources you cite above are fine.
• Preview of Voices and Silences: With a New Epilogue by James Earl Jones & Penelope Niven/published by Hal Leonard Corp/2002 can be found in Google Books. On page 82 Jones speaks of his time as a stage manager at the Ramsdell (in that time known as The Manistee Summer Theatre), on Page 85 the timeline of his time at the American Theatre Wing is made clear, on Page 90 he speaks of the Ramsdell & the Summer Theatre being the same plus his summers at the Manistee theatre and his time in the fall/winter at the American Theatre Wing in New York, and on Page 145 he talks about his (first) Othello at the Ramsdell/Manistee Summer Theatre.
• JEJ grew up outside of Manistee, enrolled at & attended UofMich in 1949 (Page 71). He did not graduate because he joined the Army and while he was waiting for his Korean War orders in 1953 he found a summer job working in the Theatre(Page 82) as a stage manager/carpenter/actor (an aside: in case you didn't know the usual practice - at least in AEA/Equity houses - is always that the Stage Manager is a member of Equity).
• Also a TV station article/news with some background re: Jones' time in Manistee, found here.

The several refs above are enough to bolster what is already in the article. Will add info & appropriate refs to the article later when I have time, checking the dates presently in the article, etc., etc., etc. Shearonink (talk) 19:58, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

An aside: There is no need for this article about the Theatre to exhaustively cite Mr. Jones' life and time in Manistee. It is enough to cite the information about his time at the Ramsdell Theatre /Manistee Summer Theatre and to cite his first stage appearance as Othello. Shearonink (talk) 22:33, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

But since you've got the book now, maybe you can go over and clean that bit up at James Earl Jones ? In all your free time :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:03, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Lol. Oh, I do not have the book now.... Much of it is available through Preview on Google Books. Yay. Shearonink (talk) 07:06, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

• A run-on sentence in the first para of the body indicates a copyedit is needed:

  The building, located at First and Maple Streets, was designated a National Historic Landmark in 1972 and the state of Michigan named the Theater as a Michigan Historic Site in 1980[Note 1] and it presently serves as a local cultural center for the area.[3] SandyGeorgia (Talk) 05:12, 2 March 2023 (UTC)

Fixed. Shearonink (talk) 18:39, 4 March 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia plus anyone else following along at WP:DCGAR - Just ran "Who Wrote That?" on this article. My contributions are now at 51.1%, DC's contributions are at 39.4% (which includes the references/wikicode/etc.) Page history has my contributions at 51.7% & DC's at 39%. Nothing's perfect but I think/(hope?) that the close-paraphrasing/copyvios/errant referencing have all been taken care of at this point. Feel free to take a look under the hood, taking a break for a while. Shearonink (talk) 18:25, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Shearonink, it is unclear to me (based on the discussions at WT:GAN) when the new GAR Coords will take over and whether they feel they should be the ones to close the DCGARs. It's disconcerting that I seem to be the only one following them, since I don't even pretend to try to understand the GA criteria, so we shall see what's next. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 18:34, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

SandyGeorgia Ah ok...hurry up and wait then... Shearonink (talk) 19:04, 5 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi! There's no issues in listing as a keep if you are satisfied. If there are no further issues with the verification stage, I'm happy on this one, I looked through a few sources and was happy enough. FWIW, even if Coldwell's was 100% on the article, but it had no copyvio and verification issues, it'd be fine to keep, so there's no issues with authorship. Lee Vilenski ^{(talk • contribs)} 14:52, 6 March 2023 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.