Talk:Ramón Ramírez (Dominican pitcher)

Requested move 1

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

No consensus to move. If renominated, proposals should follow Wikipedia:Naming conventions (baseball players) guidelines. Vegaswikian (talk) 21:54, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

• Ramón Ramírez (pitcher, born 1981) → Ramón Ramírez (relief pitcher)
• Ramón Ramírez (pitcher, born 1982) → Ramón Ramírez (starter/reliever)
• Ramón Ramírez (pitcher, born 1977) → Ramón Ramírez (Panamanian pitcher)

– The birth years of these three pitchers are all in a five-year span, so unless someone knows the exact DOB of the pitcher they want to look up, these titles are not very helpful. I think that the new titles will better describe each pitcher: the Ramírez born in 1981 has been a relief pitcher for his entire major league career (and will almost certainly never become a starter), the Ramírez born in 1982 has been a starter and a reliever in his short major league career, and the Ramírez born in 1977 is only notable because he pitched for Panama in the World Baseball Classic. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 12:41, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

If we are to move them are the proposed titles for the first two articles really the best solution? All three players are of different nationalities - so could we not take the lead from your third example and move the others to Ramón Ramírez (Dominican pitcher) and Ramón Ramírez (Venezuelan pitcher)? That seems to be the more usual way of disambiguating in situations like this. AJSham 12:24, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose Using nationality for one and not the others isn't uniform. Even using nationalities for all three though doesn't reduce confusion for me, because I don't know whose nationality is whose (except from the comment above about the 1977 born one being from Panama). – Muboshgu (talk) 15:44, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

If uniformity is a problem, perhaps instead of retitling the third one to Ramon Ramirez (Panamanian pitcher), we could retitle it to Ramon Ramirez (World Baseball Classic pitcher) instead, since that is the only notable thing he has ever done. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 18:19, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Maybe, I dunno. I should clarify my opposition as one of ambivalence. I agree with you that it's impossible to tell from the current titles of these three pages which one leads to whom. I support moving them, but I'm not sure what the best way to rename them is, though. Maybe all by nationality would be an improvement. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:34, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Oppose/comment: I think for consistency reasons, it would be better with nationality for all three. Nationality has a higher probability of recognition, at least when they are so close in age. Also, nationality does not change (very often), but roles, such as being a relief pitcher or a starting pitcher, could change over night, eg. as the result of an injury. HandsomeFella (talk) 21:39, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

I guess nationality is fine. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 22:54, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

It may not hurt to propose a move again, this time specifying the move to be uniform by nationality. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:25, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Move request 2

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Move as proposed. Jafeluv (talk) 13:53, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

---

• Ramón Ramírez (pitcher, born 1981) → Ramón Ramírez (Dominican pitcher)
• Ramón Ramírez (pitcher, born 1982) → Ramón Ramírez (Venezuelan pitcher)
• Ramón Ramírez (pitcher, born 1977) → Ramón Ramírez (Panamanian pitcher)

– Per the discussion above. Actually, I think Muboshgu could have moved the articles, as there was a consensus on a counter-proposal (equivalent to this one). HandsomeFella (talk) 22:34, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Eh, nah. There was consensus against the move as proposed, but I don't think there was consensus for this proposed move. There was some initial support, but not necessarily enough to say for sure. I'm not necessarily on board myself. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:46, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

• Support: The birthdates are too close together (as I said above), so these pages need to be moved. Nationality is apparently the least controversial way to move them, so I support it. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 00:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
• Comment I suppose redirects from Ramón Ramírez (born 1981) , Ramón Ramírez (born 1982) , Ramón Ramírez (born 1977) will exist? And that Ramón Ramírez (pitcher) will be repointed to the disambiguation page? 70.24.251.71 (talk) 11:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

  Yes, something like that will be created. HandsomeFella (talk) 11:03, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

• Suppport More descriptive. Though I would prefer a current team -- which is even more descriptive -- if possible, for example Ramón Ramírez (New York Mets pitcher), and the article name can simply be changed when he is no longer with the Mets.--brewcrewer (yada, yada) 14:52, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support - The players nationality won't change but the team he's playing for may. I support this proposal. Be bold and bust a move. -Travis Thurston+ 18:39, 13 March 2012 (UTC)
• Support. A clear improvement over the current titles. Nationalities are a much cleaner and more descriptive distinction than birth dates. BlindMic (talk) 23:21, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Ramón Ramírez (Dominican pitcher)/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: TonyTheTiger (talk · contribs) 06:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• This article is almost entirely composed of routine coverage of statistical summaries. Please add some of the story for this guy, at least since he was in the major leagues there should be some non-routine coverage. I am considering quickfailing this article for lack of encyclopedic content.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 06:02, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Shorten "This article is about the pitcher who currently plays for the New York Mets. For the pitcher who played two seasons for the Cincinnati Reds, see Ramón Ramírez (Venezuelan pitcher). For the pitcher who played for Panama in the 2006 World Baseball Classic, see Ramón Ramírez (Panamanian pitcher).

For other people named Ramón Ramírez, see Ramón Ramírez (disambiguation)."

to "This article is about the current New York Mets pitcher. For the former Cincinnati Reds pitcher, see Ramón Ramírez (Venezuelan pitcher). For the Panamanian national team pitcher, see Ramón Ramírez (Panamanian pitcher). For other uses, see Ramón Ramírez (disambiguation)."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

• Apply this change to all relevant articles.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:27, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• Remove ERA content from the WP:LEAD, except for sub 1 ERA.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:33, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
  • You removed the sub-1.00 ERA?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)
• The San Francisco Chronicle, Boston Globe and New York Times have online archives. He has spent much of his career in those cities. Please incorporate some non-routine coverage (stuff other than stats) from those newspapers.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 11:35, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I added some more information about Ramírez's personal life. I am sorry I did not add more, but it is actually rather tricky to find information about players from Latin America. Also, Ramírez is just a relief pitcher and does not draw as much attention as other players. The Boston Globe charges for their articles, Ramírez has not even pitched for the Mets yet (and he was not in the majors with the Yankees), and I checked the San Francisco Chronicle. However, I hope what I have put will be enough (this article actually has about as much non-routine coverage as Guillermo Mota's article, and that one is a GA). Besides, Ramírez is only notable because of his baseball career, and I have included plenty of information about that. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 12:20, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Put "Ramon Ramirez site:sfgate.com" (not including the quotes) in google and start researching the Chronicle. On the first page, I see a Twitter controversy and the reason he was traded in Feb 2012.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I was aware of the Twitter controversy with Tony Bruno, but I thougt that had more to do with Bruno and was not relevant for Ramírez. Do you think I should mention it anyway? Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 14:26, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

It is part of a beanball/ejection incident that should be in the article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:31, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

What happened with this twitter story?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:20, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

Look at the first result when you put ["Ramon Ramirez" site:nytimes.com] in google (I.E., I used quotes around his name this time).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Try similar searches with Denvere and Kansas City newspapers.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

Please do some legwork.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 13:58, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I checked the Denver Post and added one or two things from it). I also checked the Kansas City Star, but they charge for articles. Soon, I will add information about the incident in Philadelphia. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 20:03, 29 March 2012 (UTC)

I have noticed the following stories:

1. http://www.rockymountainnews.com/news/2008/jun/24/ramirez-leaves-rockies-ticked-off/
   1. http://www.aolnews.com/2008/06/25/who-knew-there-was-bad-blood-between-the-royals-and-rockies/
   2. http://www.denverpost.com/sports/ci_9687152
   3. http://royalsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/141
2. http://royalsblog.kansascity.com/?q=node/408#comment-4286

Please comment on the propriety of including them.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 01:49, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

I added the incident in Philadelphia. I do not think the first reference you mentioned is really notable; Ramírez was not suspended, fined, or ejected from the game, and he did not actually hit Torrealba with the pitch. I do not think the second reference is reliable: Ramírez could not have been suspended 50 games for steroids use while with the Royals (because he pitched in 71 games for them), and I could not find any other source saying that he was suspended. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 11:23, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

We are not suppose to make up arbitrary guidelines (whether there was an ejection or whether he hit the guy) to determine what is notable. Notability is based on what is written in the press. WP is a summary of RS. If RS write about something we summarize it. I added a few more stories about the incident. Please reconsider whether it is noteworthy.

I added the Twitter story and the incident with Torrealba, and I replaced the sub-1 ERA (removing it was just a mistake). Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 18:41, 30 March 2012 (UTC)

New York Yankees

• This section does not need to be subsectioned. Three paragraphs that each makes clear the year in the first sentence is fine.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:12, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• I think I'd rather see a statistical table than see yearly statistical summaries in the prose.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:12, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• I merged the subsections. However, I think that the statistics will have to remain in the prose. I have noticed that statistical tables appear on most hockey articles, and they are often found on football articles on Wikipedia. However, for some reason they are never used on baseball articles, so the statistics need to stay in the prose for this one. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 10:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Merge the Rockies too.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Is there a WP:MLB policy against stat tables?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• I am not sure, but I think there is. I believe statistical tables were used at one time, but they have all been removed now. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 17:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

2007

• Was he on the roster for any playoff series?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• No, he could not have been because he was on the 60-day disabled list. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 10:58, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Is there a way to remind the reader of this text "Although he did not pitch in the playoffs for the Rockies at all" that he was on the DL throughout the playoffs?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:21, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Kansas City Royals

• The Torrealba situation should mention former team or former teammates. Since you have three good refs (Rocky Mt. News and AOL), why not add them for the reader.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• The Post article mentions the Kemp fight for which he was suspended and fined. That seems to be notable.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 00:25, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Take a good look at the Post article. Torrealba was suspended for fighting Kemp, not Ramírez. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 00:40, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Sorry, I read it too fast.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:19, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Boston Red Sox

• What is the purpose of "On August 24, he pitched 1 2⁄3 scoreless innnings and got the win in a 12–8 victory over the White Sox."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

San Francisco Giants

• What is the purpose of "Three days later, he got a win by pitching a scoreless inning in a 3–2 victory over the St. Louis Cardinals."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Also "On August 14, he pitched 1⁄3 scoreless innings to earn a save in a 5–2 win over the Florida Marlins."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)
• Also "A week later, he earned another save by pitching a scoreless 11th inning in a 6–4 victory over the Houston Astros."--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

In general, I think you should link to season articles in the text. A sentence like "Ramírez got his only win of the year by pitching a scoreless inning on September 21 in a 1–0 victory over the Cubs" should link to the proper Cubs season as should all references to teams he is not playing for.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 07:43, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

The purpose of those above four points is to show some of Ramírez's season highlights. I do not think a link to the visiting team's season is necessary; I've never done that before when working on a good article (like Pat Burrell, Mota, and Edgar Rentería), and I don't think I need to now. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 11:02, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Dude, you have about a half dozen GA credits. I am approaching 300. Believe me when I say, that linking to the team season helps the reader a lot more. You should go back and fix the other few GAs you have. Although I do mostly football and basketball this is still relevant in baseball. Teams differ from year to year. Please reformat your team links and try to make a habit of it. Also, if you review, try to get other editors to link to team seasons.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:06, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

In terms of highlights. I would only mention stats like that in association with being player of the week/month, setting a record, being on a streak, a significant win (a scoreless inning that earned a save where one team stopped a 15 game losing streak against the other or where it was the 5000th win in franchise history, e.g.) or being in the playoffs. I would remove the four that I mentioned as WP:CRUFT.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 15:06, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

Made fixes mentioned above. Sorry, I did not realize you were that experienced with Good Articles. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 17:38, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

P.S. superlative random games can be included. If he enters with the bases loaded and strikes out the side or if he strikes out 5 or 6 guys in two innings, you can mention those regardless of the signifcance of the game. Similarly if a batter gets 5 hits, 3 homers, 2 grannies, or hits for a cycle, you can include those. Random saves don't belong in an encyclopedia however. Even a successful outing after returning from the DL might find its place in the prose. Basically, stats with a story can be included.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:56, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• It would not hurt to link to the season for the team he is playing for in some cases. E.g., "since Giants' manager Bruce Bochy" could be changed to "since 2010 Giants' manager Bruce Bochy" with a link.
  • "He posted a 0.66 ERA through his first 13 games with the Royals" -> "He posted a 0.66 ERA through his first 13 games with the 2008 Royals" linked.
  • Basically, you may get traded to or from a franchise, but each year you achieve things for a specific team. Try to work one team season link into the text for each team he played for. This will help the reader.
  • Since you only have a half dozen GAs to go back through, I urge you to reformat those as well with team season links.
• Also, use the 2010 template once per year in the article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 18:46, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Use of the 2010 template is being discouraged by WP:MLB. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 20:13, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• O.K. Like I said, I mostly do basketball and football these days. What about linking to the MLB season for his major league years?--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 20:27, 31 March 2012 (UTC)

• Made above fixes. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 11:48, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• MLB years are well-placed. The team seasons are sort of hidden. You are suppose to place links in the first use of a term. I would link to the first use of the team name that does not relate to a franchise. I.E., first use other than transactions (which should still link to the franchise).--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:27, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• Done. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 19:54, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

• I am pretty sure you misunderstood my last suggestion. this edit removed a lot of helpful links, especially for opponents. I have reverted it. What I meant is that if he played for team x in 20YY. the 20YY team season article should be linked the first place it is convenient. The following are examples:

"He made his debut on April 14" -> "He made his debut for the 2006 Rockies on April 14".

"Ramírez began the 2007 season with seven straight scoreless appearances -> "Ramírez began the 2007 season with seven straight scoreless appearances for the Rockies"--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 02:19, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Done. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 11:11, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

The text is now fine. Please add {{personality rights}} tags to the images. You should also add a WP:CAPTION to the infobox image.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:17, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

P.S. Please tag the image for the other R. Ramirez as well.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 14:19, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. Sanfranciscogiants17 (talk) 16:44, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for your diligence, patience and promptness. I can now PASS this article.--TonyTheTiger (T/C/BIO/WP:CHICAGO/WP:FOUR) 17:50, 2 April 2012 (UTC)