Talk:Periyar River

Why not redirect to the disambiguation page?

Why does Periyar redirect to the article on the river and not to the disambiguation page? Please stop the edit wars. There are better things to do in life and in wikipedia. ώiki Ѕαи Яоzε ^†αLҝ 08:33, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Tamil Nadu PWD

Can anyone say, please, what PWD stands for? I'd like to copy edit this piece, and an unexpanded acronym shouldn't be present. Davy p 22:40, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

PWD stands for Public Works Department - P.K.Niyogi (talk) 08:41, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks - I thought it might but wanted to be sure. Davy p (talk) 02:23, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Sivagiri Hills

The location of Sivagiri hills is Tamil Nadu. It is very sad that it is not mentioned anywhere. Page creator has to take this into account - Yutha — Preceding unsigned comment added by Yutha (talk • contribs) 19:09, 2 December 2011 (UTC)

Sivagiri hills is located along the north-east border of Idukki district in Kerala state.I believe Yutha is confused with the place Sivagiri in Erode District. 15 December 2011 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 202.91.135.88 (talk) 09:33, 15 December 2011 (UTC)

-- Please note that Periyar River starts from Sivagiri hills in south eastern part of Idukki District and not from TN. Refresh you geography classes (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki (talk • contribs) 19:54, 23 December 2011 (UTC)

Proper citation provided on the rivers origin. Pearll's Sun^TALK 02:08, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Do you mind to provide the proper citation about river origin (I would appreciate if it is from TN govt) here --Nubin_wiki (talk) 03:02, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

I would appreciate if you can tell me how many Kms this river is running through state on TN. Nowhere TN govt sites it is mentioned that Periyar originates from TN --Nubin_wiki (talk) 03:05, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Has it been mentioned in any kerala govt site that it originates from Kerala? TN does not want to make a big issue of it , but only until, this was misused. u should provide link here from kerala. thks. . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews (talk • contribs) 03:48, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

"The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD, 1974; CESS, 1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu" i took it from reference. We have to give facts, change the origin from kerala to tamilnadu. --Kurumban (talk) 00:02, 6 January 2012 (UTC)

Theni, Madurai and Ramanathapuram

Does anyone have a source for an estimate of the size of the population in Tamil Nadu whose water depends on the Periyar? Davy p 22:46, 13 October 2007 (UTC)

Also can anyone reference how much water flows along the Periyar (perhaps at different times of the year) and how far the tidal region extends upstream from the sea? Davy p 00:36, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

links to malayalam and spanish wiki are not shown though it is in the article. --202.164.149.223 (talk) 07:57, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Periyar river - Interstate River?

Can someone comes with a proof for the Interstate river claim for Periyar. It should be a credible proofs, otherwise I would ask administrators consider making Periyar as Interstate river as vandalism. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 20:01, 23 December 2011 (UTC).

-- I found the TN government [1] article regarding Irrigation where every river flowing through Tamil Nadu is mentioned. Periyar river is not mentioned in the list. talk —Preceding undated comment added 19:22, 26 December 2011 (UTC).

-- Many people are trying to edit the article in vested interested without any credible proofs. Administrators please lock this article and start a healthy debate on the same. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki (talk • contribs) 02:51, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

-- Please provide TN Government's Official website link/documents to prove Periyar as a inter state river. --Nubin_wiki (talk) 02:59, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

--- The citations have the proof. Now what is fact is stated. dont create new facts. if you have any contrary proofs, cite them in this page, and then we can talk, Nubin.

-- All I'm asking you is to state TN Govt link/document for this. I've proofs from Kerala govt to state. Do you want me to share those details here. Please be calm and lets clear this doubts. Shall I consider stating Periyar as inter state river as a vandalism if you are not able to provide a credible TN govt claim on this. --Nubin_wiki (talk) 03:30, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Go ahead and produce a kerala govt. proof first and i will show you the errors. all articles state the origin same and only you differ and hence onus is on you to disprove. share the link here and then surely we can talk — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews (talk • contribs) 03:37, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Check this - [2] (nowhere it says it originates from TN) Check this Idukki official govt site [3]... PLease find the errors in these reports with TN govt sites links/docs..--Nubin_wiki (talk) 03:50, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

That is clever wording. 'part of the district in the sense it is the northern border. that sivagiri is a hill in that area belonging to Tamilnadu is documented in government maps and is in public libraries. you can check govt maps.The same has been produced to courts as well.

-- Can you prove it with TN govt docs or not? You still didn't answer my question. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki (talk • contribs) 04:06, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

What you have shown is not kerala govt document and in that website also the words do not say what you think it says. so i am still waiting. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Chennaitvnews (talk • contribs) 04:11, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

-- First link is from Kerala [4] is a State govt site and the second link is Idukki district official site. I haven't seen a single TN govt link/doc for your fake claim — Preceding unsigned comment added by Nubin wiki (talk • contribs) 04:24, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

A proper citation should be enough in wiki and this not necessarily be a source from a particular state's official source, a clear info from a genuine source should be enough, the provided citations have a good credible reference, they can be challenged if proven otherwise.Pearll's Sun^TALK 17:01, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

--Stating Periyar as an interstate river should be based on facts. One fact is that Periyar originates in Kerala, flows through Kerala and joins the ocean in Kerala. The other fact is that some of catchment area lies in Tamilnadu and as with all rivers Periyar is formed by the confluence of many head-streams and a head-stream originates from Tamilnadu. Now the question is whether you define a river as an interstate river by its course or by its catchment area. By popular understanding it is by course.--Anandutss (talk) 10:42, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Vandalism

Previous edit by a user - "This is being wrongly edited earlier as kerala by vested interests." Users editing this article with illogic facts and violating Wiki policies. Administrators please have a look at this. --Nubin_wiki (talk) 03:18, 27 December 2011 (UTC)

Article reverted with explanation. Please discuss before changing.

Article reverted with explanation. Proof's for it's origin in Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu.

1: http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm 2: http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf 3: http://www.irenees.net/fr/fiches/analyse/fiche-analyse-633.html

Proof's for it's origin in Kerala.

1: http://www.thehindu.com/news/states/article2764198.ece

Any better proof's? Please discuss before changing Pearll's Sun^TALK 06:34, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

The first link says that periyar originates from Sivagirimala. The second link says "Periyar originates in the ‘Sivagiri’ group of hills in ‘Sundara Malai’". Neither of them says where Sivagiri or Sundara Malai is. Third one says about "Sivagiri peaks of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu". According to Google Maps, Sivagiri Malai is in Kerala. http://maps.google.com/maps/place?q=Sivagiri+Malai,India&hl=en . No information about Sundara Malai available either in wikipedia or Google Maps. Reverted back to previous edit. --Syam Kumar (talk) 09:15, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Added Google map as a reference for the location of Sivagiri Malai --Syam Kumar (talk) 09:29, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Ref 2 & 3:

The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD,1974; CESS,1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. Google Map cant be had as a reference as the following reference's says otherwise 1: http://www.theweatherinindia.com/weather/Tamil_Nadu/Sivagiri_Malai

2: http://www.getamap.net/maps/india/tamil_nadu/_sivagirimalai/

3: http://www.keralaindiavacation.com/kerala-tourist-destinations/periyar-kerala.html

4: http://www.holiday-packagesindia.com/india-vacations/index.html

5: http://tripsguru.com/Rivers/Periyar.html Please discuss here before replacing the multiple references with the google map. Pearll's Sun^TALK 12:46, 1 January 2012 (UTC)

Let's discuss the rivers Origin.

Proof's for it's origin in Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu.

1. http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm
   
2. http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf
   
3. http://www.irenees.net/fr/fiches/analyse/fiche-analyse-633.html
   

Please include your references if you think the rivers location is disputed. Pearll's Sun^TALK 02:06, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Here is the best proof to show that the origin of Periyar river is in Kerala from Ministry of water resources.

• [5].
  

I don't think any credible proof than this can be presented. Thanks to the person who added this to wikipedia.
Nubin_wiki (talk) 03:02, 10 January 2012 (UTC)

The citation only states that the river originates from "Sivajini Hills" which could have been mistaken for "sivagiri malai/hills" (both sounds similar and could easily be mistaken for the other) also "Sivajini Hills" pulls no result in any search engine but "sivagiri malai/hills" pulls About 192,000 results in google search engines [6] and around 11,000 results in Yahoo search engine [ http://search.yahoo.com/search;_ylt=A0oGdUg0PA1PTwkA67il87UF?p=sivagiri%20malai&fr=sfp ], Also the reference fails to confirm where the hills are located, The state Kerala mentioned is only for the river flowing and not originating, but the current available multiple reference also say it originates in Tamilnadu. Please discuss and get to a consensus and then apply the same to the article. Pearll's Sun^TALK 07:39, 11 January 2012 (UTC)

• Comment: The reference provided by Nubin wiki is a primary source and is not more credible than secondary sources such as news articles or academic work. On the other hand, although a search query on the search engine does give some insight but it is a type of original research you just performed and has no credibility on its own for facts. I see a few other sources provided in the RFC summary to be seemingly non reliable too. A good idea would be to look through news sources, academic work or a reliable atlas. --lTopGunl (talk) 01:23, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for your comment, i have added more reliable sources to prove that Sivagiri is located in Tirunelveli Tamil NaduPearll's Sun^TALK 14:44, 20 January 2012 (UTC)

I think it would be a good idea to advertise this RFC on a geography noticeboard and WP:RSN or to alternatively ask for the reliability of your sources there and then link that discussion here (which ever suitable) so that there are no objections about your sources. --lTopGunl (talk) 02:27, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi thanks for your suggestions, it has already been posted on the Wikipedia:Requests for comment/History and geography. It is yet to receive a reply. Also trying all possible means to figure this out with a map but still unable to find one.Pearll's Sun^TALK 04:31, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

That notice board as actually the same as this RFC. You can also try Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Geography & Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps. Good luck. --lTopGunl (talk) 09:41, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks once again. I have applied there today, i wish to get some assistance on the same, hope someone with more knowledge on these issues would help me find a suitable Map.Pearll's Sun^TALK 16:55, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

• Comment, the source of the river is Kerala so why there are an editor warring over this is beyond me. River disputes in India: Kerala rivers under siege p43 p10 Darkness Shines (talk) 16:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Please show me a source where it says the source if the river is Kerala? Did you check the above supportive references?Pearll's Sun^TALK 16:14, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

• Pearl's Sun, you do not get your own way when something is being discussed. I will try to go through the sources later but right now your continued reverting is causing problems with other aspects of the article, as you have been made aware. - Sitush (talk) 16:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi, i have edited it without disturbing the other aspects of the article. Pearll's Sun^TALK 16:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

And you should not have done. Please revert. - Sitush (talk) 16:24, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

And the reason? would you like me to change the rivers source back to Kerala with all the sources provided? Please change the lead after providing sources that say the the river originates from Kerala. Pearll's Sun^TALK 16:30, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

The reason is because you do not get your own way. You are as aware as anyone that sources say different things and you are warring to keep your preferred version. If you are not careful, you will find yourself blocked from editing. - Sitush (talk) 16:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, The top 3 Sources point for its origin to be in Tamil Nadu, even if they say different things where do they say it originates from Kerala? And why would one get blocked without a reason? Please stop warning members of getting blocked without proper reasons. Pearll's Sun^TALK 16:43, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

WP:Edit warring and even WP:3RR. Furthermore, we should show all points of view that are supported by reliable sources, not just your own personal preference. - Sitush (talk) 16:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I suggest that you also read WP:OVERLINK, because that is something else which you have cocked up following my recent fixes. - Sitush (talk) 16:51, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Reply to Sitush. From what I understand.

• Firstly, which Sivagiri? Sivagiri, Kerala is in the coastal municipalty of Varkala (Kerala) and is not the Sivagiri under consideration, Sivagiri, Erode in Erode district is also not it. Sivagiri, Tirunelveli is the Sivagiri under consideration. The Gazetteer of South India (Francis) (pg 402) states that "this (river) rises in the Sivagiri forests miles 60 miles south of Devikolam on the High Range at an elevation of over 3000 feet." The same book on Pg 278 states that Sivagiri "is a zamindari situated mainly in the north-west of the Sankaranayinarkovil taluk of Tinnevely district of Madras."
• I understand that Sivagiri Malai massif (locatable on Google Earth as Sivagiri Malai) is on the High Range watershed and originates a number of rivers which flow both east and west. Periyar's origins from this enable it to be dammed at Thekkady/Periyar and provide water in a direction oposite to the flow to Tamil Nadu. The source may geographically lie on either the Kerala side or the Tamil Nadu side but in the absence of survey maps it is difficult to tell. The administrative boundary appears to follow the watershed.
• So examining the sources is our only way out.
• NubiWiki's source is not dated, has no metadata, no author, no citations and no other authority. In the source, the two columns titled "Village/Distt.,(Origin)" and "State" do not appear to be corelated. That is, the state refs to the state the river is in, not the state of the origin of the river. Secondly, there is no "Sivajini Hills" district in Kerala, but Sivagiri exists a sub-district in modern Tirunelveli district Tamil Nadu.
• The other sources regarding Tamil Nadu prima facie are far better and in the absence of even reasonable references to create a doubt, we shall need to say Tamil Nadu is the state of origin. The issue can be reconsidered when better sources come to light in favour of the origin being in Kerala.
• W. Francis (1989). Gazetteer of South India. Mittal Publications. GGKEY:UA9TFJEF8WK. Retrieved 27 February 2012. (Late 19th Century/early Twentieth Century book reprinted)

AshLin (talk) 20:19, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep, I am reaching the same conclusion as you but perhaps a little more slowly! The article needs an overhaul but I'm not sure whether I have the capability to do it. I'll try to take a look over the next few days. - Sitush (talk) 20:23, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks AshLin and Sitush for providing your comments, though i have added the necessary citations i would like to leave it to the experts to correct the articles grammar and fix other mistakes. Regards. Pearll's Sun^TALK 08:27, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Please see my reply to your query in Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Maps regarding the source of Periyar. Ashinpt (talk) 05:06, 1 March 2012 (UTC) Ashinpt

Sivagirimala

Which Sivagiri is being referred to in this source? The implication is that it is the one in Kerala because the source makes no mention of Tamil Nadu. Since it is unclear, it should probably not be used. - Sitush (talk) 16:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

This source is not appropriate and should be removed. It is a synopsis of another source which we already use. - Sitush (talk) 16:48, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

This article was in a constant IP vandalism so multiple references were added. if you find it wrong please remove it Pearll's Sun^TALK 16:52, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

No. You added it, so you remove it. It is your responsibility to ensure that your statements are verifiable using reliable sources etc. - Sitush (talk) 16:56, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

B Class assessment

B-Class 5-criteria checklist

• B1 (Referencing and citations ) = n
• B2 (Coverage and accuracy ) = n
• B3 (Structure ) = y
• B4 (Grammar and style ) = n
• B5 (Supporting materials ) = n

Comments

• needs minimum one inline reference per paragraph.
• needs references for all vital facts, opinions, assertions.
• refs need to be cited properly, poor quality as of now. Strongly recommend that cite templates be used.
• coverage skewed & inadequate.
• structure not balanced and not covering all desireable content issues.
• needs copy-edit.
• needs diagram showing branching & dam locations.
• assessment=C class
  

AshLin (talk) 19:02, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Origin of Periyar River

The origin of Periyar river is in Kerala only, though it's near to the border to Tamilnadu along the Western ghats. There were concerted efforts to twist this fact by quoting either misguiding links or illegitimate references, as detailed below.

Ref# [1] ces.iisc, Western Ghats rivers in Kerala. http://ces.iisc.ernet.in/biodiversity/documents/rivers.htm A genuine website managed by Govt. of india, in section "Western Ghats rivers in Kerala" says: "Periyar The longest river in Kerala. Originates from Sivagirimala. Numerous rivulets join to form the Periyar River. It runs through Devikulam, Thodupuzha, Moovattupuzha, Kunnathunadu and Paravur Taluk and at Aluva takes two different directions. While one flows into the Chalakkudipuzha the other joins the Vembanadu Lake at Varapuzha. It measures a length of 244 kilometers and an area of 5398 sq.km."

Ref#[2] indiawaterportal.org, Status Report on Periyar River http://www.indiawaterportal.org/sites/indiawaterportal.org/files/Joseph%20M.L.pdf The link points to a project report prepared by an ordinary individual, and not officially accepted ever by any authentic Govt department.** Hence the reference may be ignored being a user uploaded content.

Ref# [3] irenees.net The information contained in this document is misguiding, though it refers to two documents, out of which the following one is a genuine document.

Ref-1. Greenpeace Report on Pollution in Periyar - Aditi Wanchoo, Greenpeace India http://www.greenpeace.to/publications/HIL%20report%202003.pdf Page#3,Para.4 Says: the Periyar River, in the state of Kerala, South India. The river originates in the Periyar Lake near the border with the state of Tamil Nadu, receives several tributaries on its way and finally joins the Arabian Sea near the port city of Cochin. This clearly states that the origin is within Kerala only, as Western ghats borders the two states and the river if originated in the eastern slope of the mountains wont flow westwards to kerala.

Ref-2. Status Report on Periyar - krpcds.org/report/Joseph%20M.L.pdf This refers to the same document given as Ref#[2] in wiki page, which is a user uploaded content.

Thus it's evident that the Periyar River originates in Kerala only. Hence references [2] & [3] shall be removed and substituted by this genuine record from Govt. of India's Ministry of water resources http://mowr.gov.in/writereaddata/linkimages/mediumriver7679492738.pdf which says: S. No. (21); Name of the River (Periyar); Village/Distt. (Sivajini Hills); Origin/State (Kerala); Length/Km. (244); Catchment Area/Sq.Km (5398)

As such, any further edits on the origin of river must be avoided.

The [1] cite that you mention clearly says The longest river in Kerala. Originates from Sivagirimala, as you have highlighted. The fact that it is the longest river in Kerala does not have anything to do with where it originates. This is why I originally raised the issue of the location of "Sivagirimala" in the thread above. Similarly, the Greenpeace source - The river originates in the Periyar Lake near the border with the state of Tamil Nadu - is unclear: the Periyar Lake could be on either side of the Kerala/TN border.

My point is, you need to read the sources very carefully. It could be that another part of the confusion relates to varying abilities to comprehend the English language sources, which are in some cases quite subtle. I will go through the rest of them again later. - Sitush (talk) 20:55, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Is Sadasivan any use for this? He says on page 15 here that "In fact, of a plethora of small streams and brooks at the source of the Periyar, only two the Nirar and Anamalayar, with a total catchment area of 113 or 114 sq. km. running in the Anamala folds are partially in Tamil Nadu". Look, to be honest, I think that we need some expert advice here. I have seen similar off-wiki disputes about the source of the river Thames and umpteen other UK rivers. Would it be worth getting someone in here from the Geography project? - Sitush (talk) 21:06, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• All you need know is were is the Dam located, it was built over the source of the river by the British. Darkness Shines (talk) 21:11, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• Well, not necessarily. If they built it at the source then it might not fill, surely? You'd have to build it a little way down. Or am I being thick? - Sitush (talk) 21:21, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

By "on" I mean across. See Geology, Environment and Society Universities Press p176 "The Mulla Periyar dam, built in the nineteenth century across the Periyar river in Kerala, is a classic example of a composite gravity dam made of stone masonry and lime concrete." Darkness Shines (talk) 21:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

• (edit conflict) Alternatively, why don't we just show both opinions, both lengths and both areas? I am sure that I must have suggested this before. River source makes it abundantly clear that there is more than one way to measure a river etc. Not that our articles are reliable! The point is that if we show both then that puts paid to any future palaver with edit wars etc. Well, hopefully. - Sitush (talk) 21:39, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Either the article is accurate or it is not, only a small portion runs through Tamil Nadu from what I have just read, but I am not getting into further trouble for striving for accuracy. With that I bid you adieu Darkness Shines (talk) 21:42, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, no. We are encouraged to show all opinions provided that they are verifiable, not fringe etc. With regard to your recent issues, well, I tend to get taken to ANI etc but I do not take people there. As far as your source is concerned, I am unsure. Did the Brits not build the thing in Travancore? If so, are the boundaries of Travancore identical to those of modern day Kerala? Seriously, this becomes a nightmare situation quite quickly, imo. It might be simpler and no less correct to leave the issue sitting on a fence (dam?) rather than try to narrow it down to one or the other. - Sitush (talk) 23:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

It seems that someone did open a discussion on a relevant project -see here. - Sitush (talk) 07:08, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

• I concur with Sitush about being non-committal in text but with explanations in footnote. But how to draw a fine line between reliable references, references casual about the location and OR? The following conclusions seem to be viable.
• Periyar arises from the Watershed in the vicinity of Sivagiri. (Enough references for this). The arising from Dam is nonsense.
• Since the inter-state boundary "appears" to follow the watershed crestline, it is logical to assume, it arises from the western slopes, i.e. Kerala onwards. Reference still needed for inter-state boundary along watershed or not.
• The references "proving" Kerala are not good enough to withstand scrutiny, notwithstanding all the hoo haa above. The TN refs are more authoritative in appearance but logically seem to be incorrect. Probably, the nearest landmark/reference point/inhabitation to the source is in TN hence the origin was named as that in TN.
• Recommended wording. The Periyar river arises from the watershed of the Western Ghats, flowing westwards from the region near Sivagiri(Tamil Nadu), in the vicinity of the state-boundary. (With a footnote giving details of the two sets of conflicting references). AshLin (talk) 07:53, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

It's quite absurd that the official source given is not at all considered or discussed prior to concluding that the origin is in Tamilnadu. The site mowr.gov.in is the official website of Ministry of Water Resources Govt. of India, as the disclaimer says This portal has been developed, hosted and maintained by NIC. The content is provided by Ministry of Water Resources.. The authentic document pointed by the referenced link clearly states that the origin of the river is in Kerala state, without any confusion, as per S.No.21 in the given table of Medium River Basins Of The Country. No one should have any objection about that the MOWR is the official agency who is deemed as the record keeper of water sheds and river basins data in India. I strongly suspect the neutrality of Sitush as he is suspected to belong to the state of Tamilnadu, the reason why he is deliberately disregarding the official sources about the origin confirming Kerala.

At least commonsense could be used to imagine how a river if originated in the eastern side of a mountain range flow westwards, if it was true that it originated in Tamilnadu side of western ghats, or otherwise it should defy gravity to climb up the mountains ! Also the "Mullaperiyar dam" article in wikipedia itself says that the water from the Periyar (Thekkady) Lake created by the dam, is diverted through the water shed cutting and a subterranean tunnel to Forebay Dam near Kumili (Errachipalam) in Tamil Nadu. If the river actually originated in Tamilnadu, why do they need to drill a tunnel across the mountains to divert water to Tamilnadu?? They could have the water flow directly in to their region if it's origin was really within Tamilnadu only.

If this kind of attempt is made again to deliberately disregard official records towards twisting known geographic facts, I would need to resort to legal remedies to counter such people. Of course, I'm using the term people, since I have gone through and have enough evidences to prove the history of concerted efforts of a few people to twist known facts in their favor. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ashokkerala (talk • contribs) 20:27, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

You are saying nothing new here and your points have already been addressed above. You are misunderstanding the sources that you present and, in any event, just because something is published by an official body does not necessarily make it right. We are not censored here and we show all valid opinions, as has been explained previously. We also cannot rely on our own articles, which I think has also been mentioned to you previously. - Sitush (talk) 21:07, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

Red-linked POV user has since been blocked indefinitely by an admin for making legal threats. Seriously, can we please get some one to either help us get clear-cut references which can kill the issue or at least help develop an acceptable wording so that this issue can rest. AshLin (talk) 21:33, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

I am hoping to come up with something tomorrow. I was waiting for others to have a say but we're going round in circles now. I think that generally you and I are in agreement regarding what needs to be said. Where we differ is that you would prefer it to be relegated to a footnote and I would rather it appeared in the body of the article. If only because drive-bys will not look at footnotes and they'll just change the body to suit their opinion. I'll draft something soon and dump it here for consideration, if that's ok with you (and anyone else who has an interest) ? - Sitush (talk) 21:40, 2 March 2012 (UTC)

• The inter-state boundary does “appear” to follow the watershed boundary and I agree that some proper reference for how exactly the border between Kerala and Tamil Nadu, especially for the Peermade taluk of the Idukki district will help.
• It's not necessary for the border to follow the watershed boundary in the mountains. But in such cases, the border usually follows a cliff edge, a ridge or a stream bed simply because they are the easiest topographical features to follow.
• For eg, you can see in http://www.india-wris.nrsc.gov.in/webgis.php# (CWC-ISRO website) that in the Udumbanchola taluk of Idukki district, the basin boundary of Periyar is clearly much inside of the inter-state boundary for a certain distance. In this case, my take is that the cliff edge of the Western Ghats rising from Tamil Nadu would have been taken as the boundary (even though the cliff edge does not form the watershed boundary).
• http://www.nias.res.in/docs/B4-2010-%20Mullaperiyar.pdf is a paper on the Mullaperiyar conflict from the National Institute of Advanced Studies. It states the portion of the Periyar basin belonging to Tamil Nadu is the one drained by Nirar. Nirar flows immediately to the north of Idukki district and to the south of Valparai town and joins the Edamalayaar river, which in turn joins the Periyar.
• It also states that the catchment area of the Mullaperiyar dam falls entirely within the territory of Kerala. In other words, the drainage basin of the Upper Periyar up until the dam falls completely within Kerala. This would obviously imply that the source of Periyar is either in Kerala or at most on the border. Not only that, it also holds true for every tributary and sub-tributary feeding into the Periyar up to the Mullaperiyar dam. The bit about the dam being the source is obviously not correct.
• I think we have some other source (Sadasivan) which states the same on the catchment area, that the only portion of the Periyar basin falling in Tamil Nadu is in the region just south of Valparai in the Anaimalai hills.
• http://downtonhomestay.com/periyar%20reserve.htm states the border of the Periyar Tiger Reserve runs along a ridge that forms the border between Kerala and Tamil Nadu for 90km. Although not an official government site, if what is stated is true, again it would imply that the source is either in Kerala or on the border.
• The above three sources seem to agree with the maps shown in the CWC-ISRO website.
• The actual source of the Periyar still needs to be the longest headstream, unless we have a place that is traditionally regarded as the source for religious or any other reason. I don't think that is the case with Periyar.
• From what I could figure out from the CWC-ISRO website and Google map’s SRTM terrain mode, the longest headstream starts probably a little less than 3 km to the west of the basin boundary of all west flowing rivers south of Tapi in Kerala somewhere around this point http://www.wikimapia.org/#lat=9.2854059&lon=77.2592068&z=14&l=0&m=t. It would be better to get some official confirmation though of where the source is.
• I would agree that we can wait for further references to come up to support either case. However my feeling is leaning towards the source of Periyar being either in Kerala or on the border, most probably entirely in Kerala.

Ashinpt 20:44, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Proposal

I would propose something like:

Lead

Periyar (meaning: big river) is the longest river in the Indian state of Kerala, where its length is 244 kilometres (152 mi). It is one of the few perennial rivers in the region and provides drinking water for several major towns. The Idukki Dam on the Periyar generates a significant proportion of Kerala's electrical power.

1st para of Origins section

The source of the Periyar is variously claimed to be in Kerala and in the neighbouring state of Tamil Nadu. Its origins lie in the mountainous Western Ghats and Greenpeace state the source as being the Periyar Lake, which is near to the Tamil Nadu border. There are alternate claims for a Tamil Nadu origin. S. N. Sadasivan has said that, "In fact, of a plethora of small streams and brooks at the source of the Periyar, only two the Nirar and Anamalayar, with a total catchment area of 113 or 114 sq. km. running in the Anamala folds are partially in Tamil Nadu". An undated, unattributed table published by the Government of India's Ministry of Water Resources states its source to be in the Sivagini Hills but does not make clear in which state it considers that area to be.

Within Kerala, the total length is about 244 kilometres (152 mi), with a catchment area of 5,284 square kilometres (2,040 sq mi). The claimed Tamil Nadu sources amount to a further 114 square kilometres (44 sq mi) over a distance of around 48 kilometres (30 mi).

The only thing that I have not yet sourced is the 48 km claim, which I assume has been cited in the article at some point. Thoughts? - Sitush (talk) 17:29, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I would be a little careful with the last sentence. It mixes up two things.

• The Mullayar river joins the Periyar 48km downstream from the source of the Periyar, according to M L Joseph's paper. We are talking here about Upper Periyar before the Mullaperiyar dam.
• The Periyar basin covers two states, Kerala (5,284 sq. km.) and Tamil Nadu (114 sq. km.). There is no dispute regarding this. But Tamil Nadu's area under the Periyar basin is in no way linked to the first 48 km of the Periyar. The Tamil Nadu portion of the basin is actually a part of the middle basin of Periyar. It consists of the area drained by Nirar river. Nirar joins the Edamalayaar river at the Kerala border. Edamalayaar in turn joins the Periyar around 70km before Periyar joins the sea. Ashinpt 21:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I think that we have already have some sort of consensus above that Joseph is not a reliable source. It is an odd situaton, though. - Sitush (talk) 21:18, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

• We would have to be careful quoting from Joseph. There are some discrepancies in the report. But, I've seen a number of other sites saying the same about Mullayar joining the Periyar at the 48km mark. It could be that they have all got their information from Joseph's paper. But it does seem plausible, if we take the source of the Periyar to be somewhere in the southern corner of Idukki district.

• I just saw Sadasivan's wording on the Tamil Nadu portion of the basin. He has worded it poorly and makes it sound as if Nirar is one of the headwater streams of the Periyar. It is in fact in the Anaimalai hills more than 100 km north from the source. Ashinpt (talk) 20:36, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

He has worded it poorly? There is a comma that I would have inserted into his phrasing but otherwise it seems to me to be said pretty clearly. He is saying that there are trickles in TN that form part of the Periyar, regardless of what they may be called. He is saying that these things exist at the Periyar source, so unless your argument is that his "partially" somehow modifies the sentence (eg: if you think that he means that they start in K, drift over into TN and then drift back), I think that we have to take it at face value. If he was the only person saying this then we could perhaps argue that he is wrong, but he is not the only person, and I am not entirely sure how our interpretation of original research sits with using maps in the way that you perhaps are doing.

Gosh, this is messy, isn't it ?!- Sitush (talk) 20:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Wow, I agree this can be really messy. As I am going deeper into this I am realizing even unwittingly how easily things can be misrepresented. Maybe Sadasivan was saying it clearly. I myself some time ago had tried to demarcate the Periyar basin based on just the terrain maps in Wikimapia, so I am pretty surprised at the assertion that there is 114 sq. km of the Tamil Nadu portion of the Periyar basin drained by Nirar somewhere near the source of Periyar.

• Actual position of Nirar - I am providing some links to clarify the location of Nirar river. Please bear with me here. I do hope things get a little clearer regarding Nirar after this.

• This is the Upper Nirar dam near Chinna Kallar in Tamil Nadu. Water from here is diverted to the Sholayar dam near Valparai.
• This is the Lower Nirar dam in Tamil Nadu. Water from here also is diverted to the Sholayar dam.
• This is the map of the Indira Gandhi Wildlife Sanctuary and National Park (IGWSNP) in Tamil Nadu right next to the border with Kerala.
• This is where Nirar/Kallar meets Edamalayaar. Notice that Edamalayaar goes further to join the Periyar. Therefore, the shown Nirar river is a part of the Periyar basin.
• This is where the Edamalayaar is joined by the Bhimamalayaar. The corresponding point on the IGWSNP map given above is just to the right of the southern most portion of the park shaded on light green. You can see the faint grey outline of the Bhimamalayaar flowing in from Kerala in the map also.
• Comparing the IGWSNP map with Wikimapia, you can see the southernmost border of the park (along the area shaded light green) is defined by the Edamalayaar river.
• In the IGWSNP map, in the middle of this light green area along the extreme south of the park, just to the left of where "TAN TEA" is written, we can see the blue wiggly line representing the Nirar river.
• Just to the northeast of the area shaded light green on the IGWSNP map that I mentioned in the previous point, there is a light yellow shaded triangular area. If you see in wikimapia, the two streams forming the Nirar river just before Chinna Kallar represent two sides of the light yellow triangular area. Actually, if you zoom out a little on Wikimapia, you can see that someone has already marked an approximate Kerala-Tamil Nadu border along northern Idukki district and it follows the boundary shown on the IGWSNP map pretty closely.
• So, from this point where Nirar enters Kerala to this point where the Edamalayaar enters Kerala, is the Tamil Nadu portion of the Periyar basin (a direct distance of a little more than 20km). This is the area where we have the 114 sq. km. Tamil Nadu portion of the Periyar basin.
• The statement by Sadasivan about the Periyar basin says the river has a drainage area of 5,398 sq.km., which is not under dispute. It says Nirar is a part of the Periyar basin draining 114 sq.km. in Tamil Nadu, which is also fine. It says Nirar runs in the Anamala folds, which is also true, given that the area I just described above is in the Anamalai hills (which go Anamudi near Munnar to Palghat Gap in the north).
• However, Sadasivan also appears to say that Nirar is somewhere near the source of the Periyar. This part of the statement is quite obviously not true. You can yourself see where the Nirar is and where the Mullaperiyar dam is. The source of the Periyar is further south from the dam in the Cardamom hills.
• From the above, we can see that the area around Chinna Kallar, just south of Valparai is where the Nirar flows and where we have the Tamil Nadu portion of the Periyar basin (114 sq.km.) Ashinpt (talk) 21:30, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I missed to see that there have been a good discussion these days. Let me also have a few points here.

• Most sources say river orignate from the Sivagiri hills in tamilnadu at an elevation of I830 m above msl or river orignate from the Western Ghats at an elevation of I830 m above msl . The Western ghats(in this location) is shared by both Tamil Nadu and Kerala but Sivagiri and Sivagiri hills lies in the Thirunelveli District of Tamilnadu.
• We need few sources to say it Originates in Kerala since we don't have a mention of it any where.
• One more info for the sake of the line " If the river actually originated in Tamilnadu, why do they need to drill a tunnel across the mountains to divert water to Tamilnadu??" from a user, Among the west flowing rivers Parambikulam, Chaliyar, Baikal, Bharathapuzha, Chalakudy etc originate in Tamilnadu and flows through Kerala. (i should not have added this, but have no choice but to give some reply to that statement and if someone objects this i shall sure remove it)

adding two more infos that may be useful to read

I second "Recommended wording . The Periyar river arises from the watershed of the Western Ghats, flowing westwards from the region near Sivagiri(Tamil Nadu), in the vicinity of the state-boundary. (With a footnote giving details of the two sets of conflicting references)" byAshLin.

Thanks all for participating. Pearll's Sun^TALK 21:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

• The problem is that the sources stating the river originating from Sivagiri hills in Tamil Nadu all seem to get their info from a single source, most probably M L Joseph's paper. Joseph’s work has been used to cite the source of Periyar for quite some time on Wikipedia now. A lot of people will just copy the information from Wikipedia believing it to be correct. Some of the websites are almost verbatim copying from Joseph's work, for eg. http://www.irenees.net/fr/fiches/analyse/fiche-analyse-633.html.
• You are right, just because a river originates in Tamil Nadu does not mean that it cannot flow into Kerala. Direction of river flow is not determined by political boundaries, but by topological boundaries (or watershed boundaries). In the case of the rivers you have cited, the watershed boundary between the west flowing rivers and the east flowing rivers is in Tamil Nadu. Hence, all these rivers start just to the west of the watershed divide and cross the Tamil Nadu - Kerala state boundary to reach the Arabian Sea.
• The claim made is that in the case of Periyar, the interstate boundary follows the watershed divide between the west flowing and east flowing rivers. In such a case, Periyar cannot be originating in Tamil Nadu.
• There is no doubt that the Sivagiri in question is in Tamil Nadu, just to the east of the Cardamom Hills which are a part of the Western Ghats. Sivagiri hills (a part of the Cardamom Hills) rise from the plains of Tamil Nadu. But, more importantly, the summits of these hills are along the crest of the Cardamom Hills.
• It is not necessary for a source to say that the source of Periyar is in Kerala. If a source says that the the crest of the Cardamom hills defines the border between Kerala and Tamil Nadu, it automatically implies that the source of Periyar cannot be in Tamil Nadu since the Periyar rises from the Cardamom Hills and flows west.
• Or, if some source says that the Upper Periyar basin does not include Tamil Nadu or that the catchment area for let's say Mullaperiyar dam does not include Tamil Nadu, then also it automatically implies that the source of the Periyar cannot be in Tamil Nadu. Not only that, it actually implies that no river feeding into the Upper Periyar or into the Periyar up until Mullaperiyardam (as the case may be) originates in Tamil Nadu.
• The article from The Hindu (link provided by Pearl's Sun above) on 4th Jan 2012 by Durai Murugan states 'As per the Water Atlas of Kerala (1995), published by Kerala's own Centre for Water Resources Development and Management, of the 5,398-sq km of the catchment of Mullaiperiyar, 114 sq km is in Tamil Nadu.'. Actually, it is the whole Periyar basin that has a catchment area of 5,398 sq.km, not the Mullaperiyar dam.
• This is an article in The Hindu on 7th Jan 2012, clarifying that no part of the Mullaperiyar dam catchment is in Tamil Nadu. The error in the Water Atlas had been corrected years ago. This implies that the source of Periyar is in Kerala.
• http://www.nias.res.in/docs/B4-2010-%20Mullaperiyar.pdf also states that the catchment area of the Mullaperiyar dam lies entirely in Kerala. This again implies source of Periyar is in Kerala.
• http://dcmsme.gov.in/publications/traderep/sptnadu.pdf is a profile for Tamil Nadu by the Deputy Commissioner for Micro, Small and Meduim Sector Enterprises. It describes the crest of the Cardamom Hills as the border between Tamil Nadu and Kerala.
• http://downtonhomestay.com/periyar%20reserve.htm states the border of the Periyar Tiger Reserve runs along a ridge that forms the border between Kerala and Tamil Nadu for 90km. This link and the above link would imply that the source is in Kerala.
• http://www.india-wris.nrsc.gov.in/webgis.php# (CWC-ISRO website) provides a very good idea of how the watershed boundaries and state boundaries match near the source of the Periyar. Zoom in to Latitude 9°18’36”N and Longitude 77°16’18” E. Somewhere around this point is the source of Periyar. The watershed boundary follows the political boundary and does not go into Tamil Nadu. This again points to the source being in Kerala. Ashinpt (talk) 22:05, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

• The above seems to me to be WP:SYNTHESIS, with a bit of WP:OR thrown in. I don't think that we can do this. - Sitush (talk) 20:54, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Alright. But I am still a little unclear. Maybe the way I am framing the argument becomes important. What I am trying to say in my previous post is not combining two or more sources to come to a conclusion. Let's take for eg, the statement made in http://www.nias.res.in/docs/B4-2010-%20Mullaperiyar.pdf that the catchment area of the Mullaperiyar dam lies entirely in Kerala. Now by making such a statement, the authors are by the definition of catchment area making a statement that the extent or the area of land from where surface water from rain and melting snow or ice flow to the Mullaperiyar dam lies entirely in Kerala. It's not my opinion, it is their statement. Therefore, they also are stating that the source of Periyar is in Kerala. It is implicit in their statement about the catchment area of Mullaperiyar dam.

• If I have to give you an analogy, it would be this. If an author states that a some 10-digit number is a prime number, he/she is also in turn stating implicitly that the same 10-digit number is not divisible by 7. It doesn't need to be specifically stated. So I am not really sure whether the above comes under WP:SYNTHESIS. My take is that it is synthesis if there is editor's opinion added in. It would be nice to get some clarity, Sitush.
• The other examples also are logical deductions from what have been stated in the references, but let's leave that aside for the moment. The CWC-ISRO website probably constitutes WP:OR in that there is nothing stated in it, so anything we write on the basis of it probably is OR. - Ashinpt (talk) 21:43, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

As a currently uninvolved party, allow me to suggest that this issue might best be taken to the noticeboard for discussing potential Original Research. This seems like a borderline issue, and may well be acceptable--not all of it, but at least the specific point that Ashinpt makes above. Then you can get the input of uninvolved editors, specifically concerning the issue of whether it crossing WP:OR to draw the conclusion regarding source and catchment. Qwyrxian (talk) 23:32, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Yep. If someone wants to make that move then I would be interested to see the outcome. I realise that it is (forgive the pun) a borderline issue and I have no particularly strong opinion. I am playing the devil's advocate on this talk page, effectively trying to broker a deal but clearly failing. - Sitush (talk) 00:11, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Nobody seems to be saying how the footnote is going to be worded or which references are going to be used. - Sitush (talk) 10:53, 6 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Sitush, I may not be as good as you or the other senior editors in framing the footnotes. So i would like to leave it to you or the experts to frame that, But i can assist in providing more sources if possible. cheers. Pearll's Sun^TALK 14:03, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Did you manage to find any more relevant sources? - Sitush (talk) 19:36, 22 May 2012 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for asking. Nopes, still trying :) Pearll's Sun^TALK 02:32, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

Sources for origin of Periyar

Hi guys. Here are some references for origin of Periyar.

• The first reference is http://cgwb.gov.in/District_Profile/Kerala/Idukki.pdf. This is the Central Ground Water Board’s report on Idukki district. Central Ground Water Board is a Govt. of India agency and is highest body in India dealing with the ground water resources of the country. The report states specifically that Periyar originates at the south-eastern border of Idukki district in Kerala.
• The second reference is http://www.periyartigerreserve.org/home.php. This is the Periyar Tiger Reserve’s (PTR) website. Please see link to Values of P.T.R -> Catchment Value. It states specifically that the Periyar originates within the forests of the PTR itself. PTR lies completely within Kerala (please see link to About the Reserve -> At a Glance mentioning PTR falling administratively in Idukki, Pathanamthitta and Kottayam districts of Kerala).
• The third reference is http://www.keralatourism.org/periyar/periyar-tiger-reserve.php. It is the website of Kerala Tourism. It also clearly states that the Periyar originates in the Periyar Tiger Reserve’s remote forests.
• The fourth reference is http://www.thehindu.com/todays-paper/tp-national/tp-kerala/article2782544.ece . In this article, the former Union Water Resources Secretary and the architect of the country's first National Water Policy, Ramaswamy R. Iyer clearly says that the Periyar flows entirely through Kerala and no part of it flows through Tamil Nadu. A part of the Periyar’s catchment area however, does fall within Tamil Nadu.

So we have four references – the first one a central government report, the second one from Periyar Tiger Reserve’s website and the third from Kerala tourism all stating that the Periyar originates from Kerala. The fourth one from a former central government secretary states that the entire river flows through Kerala, which in turn means that the river originates in Kerala.

Let’s also see the following maps: 1 - showing the administrative sections of PTR and 2 - showing the drainage pattern in the PTR. These maps are from the PTR’s website (See Periyar Tiger Reserve Maps). These should give us some idea as to where exactly the Periyar originates from within the PTR. Notice in the admin section map that the south-easternmost portion of the PTR consists of 2 sections, Periyar on the east and Sundaramala on the west. These sections also form the south-easternmost part of Idukki district (Compare with this map).

In the drainage pattern map of the reserve, have a look at the stream originating from the south-eastern corner of the Sundaramala section of the reserve. Visually, this appears to me as the longest headstream of the Periyar in the whole reserve. As can be seen from the map, it does originate from south-eastern border of Idukki district. (It matches with the location I had pointed out previously). This is of course just map reading and I still don’t have a proper reference to the exact location. But we have seen Sundaramala being mentioned in M L Joseph’s work. The most likely explanation is that M L Joseph got the Sundaramala bit right, but the location wrong. My hunch is that Periyar does originate from Sundaramala, but Sundaramala is not in Tamil Nadu. Rather it is the Sundaramala section of the PTR in Kerala as the map shows.

On the other side of the eastern border of the PTR from where Periyar rises is the Thirunelveli Forest Division (FD) in Tamil Nadu (More specifically Vasudevanallur Reserved Forest (RF) portion and the Sivagiri RF portion of the Thirunelveli FD. Please see Thirunelveli FD subdivisions here). - Ashinpt (talk) 13:13, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Most of the referenced provided have already been discussed and they never say that the river originates in Kerala, and the others are original research you just performed which cant be taken as a credible reference. Well and if you provide an article from the Hindu then please check this Article by senior DMK leader who has been a Tamil Nadu Minister holding portfolios of the PWD and Water Resources and Law can we ruleout this if we take the others?? Pearll's Sun^TALK 05:12, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

I am sorry, are we reading the same things here? Firstly, can you tell me where and when have the four references that I have specifically provided been discussed before. Secondly, if a source says the Periyar originates at the border of Idukki district, they are saying it originates in Kerala. How you are saying that the sources do not say that the river originates in Kerala I don't quite understand. Thirdly, which of these four references do you think qualifies as OR and why? Lastly, I have no problem referencing Durai Murugan's article, except that it generally talks about the rights of Tamil Nadu to the Mullaperiyar waters and nothing on where the actual flow of the Periyar is. Mind you, rights of Tamil Nadu to Mullaperiyar waters and the actual flow of the Periyar are two different things. On the other hand, Ramaswamy Iyer's article does talk about where the Periyar flows. Or did I miss something? - Ashinpt (talk) 22:46, 23 August 2012 (UTC)

Additional source

This is a paper with an analysis of the recent events around the Mullaperiyar issue. It clearly states that the Periyar does not flow through Tamil Nadu and no part of the river forms the boundary between Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Please see the relevant analysis from pages 10-12. It also follows the history of articles regarding the Mullaperiyar dam which appeared in the Hindu early 2012. - Ashinpt (talk) 11:03, 12 September 2012 (UTC)

Clarification on the location of Sundaramala

This is a link from the Forest Department of Kerala, describing the boundary of Periyar National Park. We can see clearly that the eastern boundary of the park follows the interstate boundary between Kerala and Tamil Nadu. Also Sundaramala peak is actually on the western border of the National Park, which means it is well within Kerala. The southern boundary of the park goes through Kallimalai peak, through Chokkampetty mala and on to Udumalai. The southern boundary of the park is also the Periyar-Pamba watershed divide ridge (See this - page 13 states watershed divide passes though Chokkampetty Mala and Kalli Mala). Hence, the Periyar has to arise to the north of this divide.

This is a link from describing the boundaries of the Sundaramala section of the Periyar Tiger Reserve. This is section is named after the Sundaramala peak mentioned in the above paragraph. Sundaramala peak lies on the Western border of Sundaramala section. This section lies to the west of the Periyar section. This is the link describing the Periyar section of the PTR. The eastern boundary of the Periyar section is the state border between Kerala and Tamil Nadu. These two sections are the south-easternmost sections of the Periyar Tiger Reserve (See also this map). It is clearly mentioned that the Periyar river itself makes a part of the common boundary between the two sections. The remaining boundary is a ridge that goes up to Chokkampetty Mala. As stated above, the southern boundary of the PTR is also the Periyar-Pamba watershed dividing ridge. It is also the southern boundary of both Periyar and Sundaramala sections.

Available sources clearly state Sundaramala being in completely inside Kerala as a peak and also separately as a section of the PTR as given above. I am not sure whether there is any Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu as I have not been able to locate any source independently stating the presence of a Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. - Ashinpt (talk) 20:45, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

References

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Origin of the river

I have been looking at the references we have for the source of the Periyar being in Kerala or in Tamil Nadu. Let's split them into different categories

Sources related to the Mullaperiyar dispute hearings in the Supreme Court of India

We have some news articles from the proceedings of the Mullaperiyar hearings in the Supreme Court of India in 2013. Times of India and Janam TV cite Kerala counsel Harish Salve's statement that as per both Kerala and Tamil Nadu, Periyar originates in Kerala and the entire river lies only on Kerala. Salve is using this to argue that Periyar is an intra-state river.

Periyar is an intra- state river since no part of it flows through Tamil Nadu; it originates in Kerala, flows entirely through Kerala and joins the Arabian Sea in the state. This has been admitted by Tamil Nadu.

From the Supreme Court's judgment on the Mullaperiyar issue, again we can see the State of Kerala raising the point that the Periyar originates in Kerala and flows entirely in its territory. At no point does Tamil Nadu deny Kerala's claims regarding the origin or the flow of the Periyar. Its only geographical claim is that a small part of Periyar's basin lies in Tamil Nadu.

Tamil Nadu in the plaint has averred as follows: “The plaintiff, defendant no.1, State of Kerala are the two riparian States through which the Inter-State river Periyar flows. The river is one of the west flowing rivers in the State of Kerala, with a portion of its catchment lying with the State of Tamil Nadu………….”

One should also note that if any part of Periyar flowed through or touched the borders of Tamil Nadu, there would have been no dispute regarding its status as an inter-state river. The whole issue would have been moot. The only reason why there was a dispute regarding the status of Periyar as an inter-state or an intra-state river was precisely because of the existence of two competing set of facts that were brought forth by Kerala and Tamil Nadu during the Mullaperiyar hearings.

1. The Periyar originated in the state of Kerala and flowed entirely through the state of Kerala. This was admitted to / not denied or refuted by Tamil Nadu.
2. A part of the basin of Periyar extended into Tamil Nadu.

To be clear, both statements can be true at the same time. An international analogy would be the river Mississippi. It flows entirely through the United States, but a part of its basin extends into Canada.

Kerala wanted the definition of inter-state river to be according to the flow of the river only. Tamil Nadu wanted it to be based on the extent of the entire basin. In its judgment, the Supreme Court sided with Tamil Nadu. It declared Periyar to be an inter-state river stating that:

Though the Periyar basin area that falls in Tamil Nadu is very small but, in our view, that does not make any difference insofar as the status of Periyar river as inter-State river is concerned. The fact of the matter is that 114 sq. km. of Periyar basin area falls in Tamil Nadu.

Since Kerala has raised the plea that river Periyar is an intraState river, obviously, burden is on Kerala to prove this fact. Kerala, except asserting that Periyar river rises in and traverses only in the territory of Kerala before entering into Arabian sea and no part of the land in Tamil Nadu abuts river Periyar, has not produced substantial evidence to prove that river Periyar is an intra-State river. Kerala has not discharged its burden to the satisfaction of the Court.

It is not open to Kerala to take a totally inconsistent plea and begin fresh controversy about the status of Periyar river on the ground that the earlier plea was founded on some erroneous premise.

In other words, since Kerala had in previous proceedings pleaded on the grounds that Periyar was an inter-state river, raising the fact that Periyar flows entirely through Kerala was not enough. Kerala had to produce more substantive arguments to prove Periyar was not an inter-state river.

The Supreme Court, however, made it clear that Tamil Nadu's contention that the two states - Kerala and Tamil Nadu - are riparian states is not true as a riparian state would have land abutting the river.

It is true that averment of Tamil Nadu in the plaint that the two States – Kerala and Tamil Nadu – are riparian States is not right in its entirety because Tamil Nadu is not a riparian State

Other sources putting origin in Kerala

Apart from the sources with the State of Kerala asserting that the Periyar originates in Kerala, we have the following sources for a Kerala origin.

The Central Ground Water Board's Ground Water Information Booklet of Idukki District states

Almost 80% of the district is drained by Periyar River, which is the largest river in Kerala which originates at the southeastern border of the district.

So here we have a source from the Central Government of India putting the origin of Periyar along the southeastern border of Idukki district, Kerala.

Kerala Tourism's page on the Periyar Tiger Reserve states

Saddled in the southern region of the Western Ghats, spread across an area of 777 sq. km of forest land and home to a luxuriant collection of different species of flora and fauna is the Periyar Tiger Reserve. This spectacular stretch of greenery gets its name from the River Periyar which has its origin deep inside the reserve.

Here we have a source from the State government of Kerala's Tourism department, stating that the Periyar originates within the Periyar Tiger Reserve, a reserve that lies completely within the boundaries of Kerala.

A third source for the origin of the Periyar is from Kerala Forest Research Institute (KFRI), one of the R&D centers of the State of Kerala, which is also a part of the Kerala State Council for Science, Technology and Environment (KSCSTE). It states

Periyar Tiger Reserve has a much undulated terrain ranging in altitude from 100 m (Pambavalley) to 2016 m (Vellimala) above sea level. The conspicuous peaks are Pachayarmala, Vellimala, Kottamala, Sunderamala, Chokkampetti mala and Karimala. The Periyar River originating from Chokkampettimala flows towards the North.

Therefore, here we have a report from an government of Kerala entity stating the origin of Periyar from a particular peak - Chokkampetti Mala - which is in the Periyar Tiger Reserve, a reserve that lies completely within Kerala.

Another source for the origin of Periyar is from the lecture of Dr. Sankar S, a former scientist from KFRI, he had given at a UGC sponsored seminar on The Western Ghats in February 2013. He states

From its source near Chokkanpattimala initially Periyar flows north between these two heavily forested ridges.

Again, we have the mention of the same peak as the origin of Periyar.

Yet another source for the origin of Periyar is a PhD thesis submitted by Minimol K. C. at the Mahatma Gandhi University. She states

Periyar Tiger Reserve that takes its name from the river Periyar, the largest river in Kerala, lies between 9' 16' and 9"40' N lat and between 76"55' and 77"25' E long. The reserve having an area of 777 km2 is situated on the Western Ghats in the ldukki district of Kerala.

The Periyar River which originates from Chokkampetty with its manifold tributaries drains the Sanctuary area.

We see the same peak - Chokkampatti Mala - being mentioned here as the source.

Ramaswamy R. Iyer, former Union Water Resources Secretary and the architect of the country's first National Water Policy, states

First, Periyar flows entirely in Kerala; no part of the river flows through Tamil Nadu.

Other sources putting origin in Tamil Nadu

Sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin are mostly a synopsis of another source (a report by M L Joseph) which looks to be the first place where this claim was made. M L Joseph's report states:

The river Periyar, the longest river of the state (PWD,1974; CESS,1984) is considered to be the life line of Central Kerala. It originates from the Sivagiri peaks (1800m MSL) of Sundaramala in Tamil Nadu. The total length is about 300Kms (244Kms in Kerala) with a catchment area of 5396Sq Kms (5284 Sq. Kms in Kerala).

The above statement is used verbatim in a second source - irenees.net - which lists M L Joseph's report as a reference.

A third source, a PhD thesis by Balamurugan R at the Anna University, also uses the exact same statement shown above, but it does no show M L Joseph's report as a reference. It repeats the same mistake made by M L Joseph stating Periyar's length to be 300km.

In other words, the only source explicitly stating Periyar's origin to be in Tamil Nadu is M L Joseph's report. The others are simply refering to M L Joseph's report.

None of the sources pointing to a Tamil Nadu origin come from any government or official source from the State of Tamil Nadu. During the Mullaperiyar hearings, Tamil Nadu did not refute Kerala's assertions regarding the origin and path of the Periyar. The only geographical claim that Tamil Nadu makes is that a part of the basin of Periyar lies in their state, something Kerala has not denied. If any part of Periyar even touched the state of Tamil Nadu, there would have been no dispute regarding the status of the river as an inter-state river as Tamil Nadu would have simply refuted Kerala's claim and asserted that a part of the Periyar touches Tamil Nadu.

Analysis of sources

Summary for Kerala origin

1. In the Supreme Court hearings,
   1. Kerala asserted the origin and the entire path of Periyar was in Kerala. Tamil Nadu did not refute/ did admit to Kerala's assertions on the origin and path of the Periyar.
   2. Tamil Nadu's only claim to Periyar was that part of the basin of Periyar extended into Tamil Nadu.
2. Based on the above two points, Supreme Court said Tamil Nadu cannot claim to be a riparian state since no part of Tamil Nadu abutted the Periyar. However, it declared Periyar as an inter-state river as the fact that a small portion of the basin of the river extended into Tamil Nadu was enough for a river to be inter-state.
3. Ramaswamy R. Iyer, former Union Water Resources Secretary and the architect of the country's first National Water Policy, states the the Periyar originates and flows only in Kerala.
4. Central Ground Water Board, a central government agency, states that the Periyar originates at the south-eastern border of Idukki district, Kerala.
5. Kerala Tourism states that the Periyar originates in the forests of the Periyar Tiger Reserve, a reserve that lies entirely in Kerala.
6. Kerala Forest Research Institute, a state government R&D centre, states that Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala within the Periyar Tiger Reserve.
7. S. Sankar, a former scientist at KFRI, states that the Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala.
8. Minimol K.C., in her thesis at the Mahatma Gandhi University, states that the Periyar originates from Chokkampatti Mala in the Periyar Tiger Reserve.

Summary for Tamil Nadu origin

1. M L Joseph, in his report states that Periyar originates in the Sivagiri peaks of Sundaramala, Tamil Nadu.
2. A report on irenees.net uses M L Joseph as a reference and states the same claim verbatim.
3. Balamurugan R, in his thesis at Anna University, states M L Joseph's claim verbatim.

Conclusions

Most of the claims for a Kerala origin are from the state of Kerala, Central govt or state govt agencies or persons linked to the central or state govt agencies. None of the claims of a Tamil Nadu origin are from the state of Tamil Nadu or from any person or agency linked to the central or state governments.

The most that Tamil Nadu has claimed is that a part of the Periyar basin extends into its territory and this makes the river inter-state. This, however, does not prove that origin lies in Tamil Nadu. To claim that it does is WP:SYNTHESIS.

The sources pointing to the origin in Kerala appear to be far more authoritative, with most of them coming from government, current or ex government officials or government agencies. -- Qcrepku1 (talk) 04:08, 21 September 2020 (UTC)

References

Requested move 27 August 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 13:47, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

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Periyar (river) → Periyar River – all river articles are named as X River and not X (river) Venkat TL (talk) 13:13, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

• Support per WP:CONSISTENT with other rivers in India. -- Ab207 (talk) 14:38, 27 August 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Cheraman?

The Cheraman Mosque is located near the end of the Periyar in Kodungalloor, but fairly far away from the river. Muslims do not believe that the proximity of a mosque to a holy river is special, or that things like rivers can even be holy. As such I have removed that paragraph from the 'religious significance' section. Indielov (talk) 14:29, 22 December 2021 (UTC)