Talk:Nordia

Requested move 17 November 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move.(non-admin closure) Niceguyedc ^{Go Huskies!} 04:17, 4 December 2018 (UTC)

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Nordia → Nordiya – WP:HEBREW unequivocally instructs to transliterate consonantal yudh as y, and all Israeli place names ending in -יה are currently transliterated consistently with this, from the nearby Pardesiya and Netanya to the more remote Herzliya and Nahariya, including the neighbourhoods of Sha'ariya in Petah Tikva and Vardiya and Carmeliya in Haifa. Yet, Number 57 disagrees with the move and refuses to engage in discussion. My another account (talk) 07:45, 17 November 2018 (UTC) --Relisting. Steel1943 (talk) 07:59, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

• Oppose The claim above that "all Israeli place names ending in -יה are currently consistently transliterated" with a y is patently untrue given the existence of Azaria, Amatzia, Balfouria, Be'er Tuvia, Beit Hanania, Beit Hilkia, Beit Nehemia, Dalia, Degania Alef, Degania Bet, Hamadia, Karmia, Kfar Uria, Kfar Yedidia, Malkia, Menahemia, Merhavia (kibbutz), Merhavia (moshav), Poria – Kfar Avoda, Poria – Neve Oved, Poria Illit, Sde Nehemia, Shomria, Sitria, Tushia, Tzafria, Yoshivia, Zekharia and Zrahia – clearly the majority do not use a y. As for me "refusing to engage in debate", I responded to a message on my talk page about this, so not sure where that claim has come from. Number 57 12:57, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

OK, so that's 29 with -ia, counting namesakes as separate instances. To my seven examples above, please add Berekhya, Birya, Bnaya, Ge'alya, HaAliya HaShniya Garden, Hodaya, Hoshaya, Ilaniya, Gan Yoshiya, Kfar Hananya, Ma'ale Tzviya, Mahseya, Mazkeret Batya, Misliya cave, Pedaya, Petahya, Ramat Denya, Revaya, Rinatya, Rinatya, Shekhanya, Talbiya and Zikhron Tuvya, for a total of 30. Now please take back your claim that "clearly the majority do not use a y".

As for you "refusing to engage in debate", my question on your talk page as to which specific part of WP:HEBREW you're referring to, remains unanswered since yesterday. --My another account (talk) 15:10, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

If you want to include neighbourhoods in the list, then I'll add Denia, Neria, Nofei Nehemia, Rehavia, Sanhedria, Sanhedria Murhevet and Vardia, so we're up to a total of 36 not using a y (and two of the places in your list (the cave and garden) aren't settlements, so I think you're being somewhat cheeky including them). I didn't answer your last comment on my talk page because by the time I was ready to do so, you'd already started this discussion (less than 12 hours later). Number 57 15:26, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

The naming conventions for settlements, neighbourhoods, caves and gardens are the same. How many more hours would it take you to point to a specific part of these naming conventions which you're referring to? --My another account (talk) 16:10, 17 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment Instead of arguing about compliance with WP:HEBREW, which is a guideline, I would recommend that you cite the spelling used most commonly in reliable English-language sources, per WP:COMMONNAME, part of a policy. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 21:07, 21 November 2018 (UTC)
• ...and if that doesn't provide clarity, use the English spelling on Israeli road signs. StevenJ81 (talk) 04:50, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

The road sign on the way into the village spells "Nordiyya": [1] --185.23.175.83 (talk) 12:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• Comment First of all, never use road signs in Israel as proof of anything. A large number of them are the figment of someone's imagination...With respect to Nordia, it seems that the place itself uses this spelling. See, for example, the name of a company located there, Nordia Springs [2].--Geewhiz (talk) 08:09, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Nordia Springs uses one spelling, but the village community website http://www.nordiya.org/ uses the other. English-language Google Maps have "Nordia" for the whole village and "Ne'ot Nordiya" for its newer neighbourhood. There is also https://www.nordiahostel.co.il/ --My another account (talk) 09:17, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

As far as I can see, out of all those websites, only the Springs website has the name written in English (as Nordia). Number 57 09:57, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• • I'd second this – otherwise we end up with spellings like Petah Tiqwa instead of Petah Tikva. Number 57 08:37, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Just to add confusion, the ICBS list and also "Carta's Official Guide to Israel" published by the Ministry of Defence use "Nordiyya". On maps I see Nordia, Nordiya, and Nordiyya. Zero^talk 08:22, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Do other English-language encyclopedias, such as Britannica, have articles about the village? How do English-language news sources, such as The Jerusalem Post and The Times of Israel, refer to it? — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 15:01, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
  • I may have been foolish to think that a newspaper would have a single way of spelling the name. The Jerusalem Post uses both Nordia ("the fields of Moshav Nordia") and Nordiya ("Moshav Nordiya, near Netanya"). — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 15:28, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

Three mentions on haaretz.com: Nordiya Nordiya Nordia --My another account (talk) 18:27, 22 November 2018 (UTC)

• • And this real estate developer can't decide, so they use Nordeya and Nordia (and the misspelling Norida) on the same page. — MShabazz ^Talk/_Stalk 15:35, 22 November 2018 (UTC)
• Now, for an official US source: Gazetteer of Israel: Names Approved by the United States Board on Geographic Names (1983) includes Nordiyya as the approved name, and both Nordiya and Nordiyah, but not Nordia, as "unapproved variant names": [3] --My another account (talk) 07:20, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• The Times index-gazetteer of the world (London, 1965) includes Nordiya, and no other variants: [4] --My another account (talk) 18:33, 23 November 2018 (UTC)
• Based on official gov.il map the name is Nordiyya. So I support Nordiyya. --Gonnym (talk) 11:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
  • The official maps has lots of spellings that are completely at odds with how we spell place names on Wikipedia, for example using Qiryat Shelomo instead of Kiryat Shlomo and the aforementioned stupid spelling of Petah Tiqwa. It seems to have the same spellings as road signs, which as Geewhiz mentions above, shouldn't be used. Number 57 13:53, 25 November 2018 (UTC)
    • You can dislike the spelling but it is irrelevant. As an English common name probably does not play any part in most smaller places in Israel, the official spelling from the government agencies should be the one that is followed. Also, It seems to have the same spellings as road signs, which as Geewhiz mentions above, shouldn't be used is just twisting this around. Yes, I agree, don't follow the spelling of the road signs, follow the spellings from the official government. If that spelling is the same as the road signs, that just makes those road signs correct. --Gonnym (talk) 01:11, 26 November 2018 (UTC)

Intermediate summary

1. WP:HEBREW unequivocally instructs to transliterate consonantal yudh as y
2. Existing WP articles for Israeli settlements ending in -יה use both -ia and -ya, with a weak preference for -ia
3. For this village of two thousand inhabitants, there is no established WP:COMMONNAME in English
4. The village's community uses both Nordia and Nordiya spellings, with a weak preference for Nordia
5. Israeli English-language press uses both Nordia and Nordiya spellings, with a weak preference for Nordiya
6. Israeli and American official sources (incl. road signs) use the Nordiyya spelling; the NGA gazetteer recognizes Nordiya, but not Nordia, as an "unapproved variant name"
7. A British gazetteer includes Nordiya, and no other variants
8. Google Maps use both Nordia and Nordiya spellings; and Bing Maps use both Nordiya and Nordiyya spellings

--My another account (talk) 18:33, 23 November 2018 (UTC)

Or, in a table form:

	Nordia	Nordiya	Nordiyya
Conforms to WP:HEBREW	N	Y	N
Used on maps	Y	Y	Y
Widely used by Israeli press	Y	Y	N
Used by Israeli official bodies	N	N	Y
Used by US DOD	N	Y	Y
Used by The Times	N	Y	N

--My another account (talk) 12:10, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Why are the US DOD and the (British) Times relevant here? Looking at Google books, we have 221 for Nordia, 59 for Nordiya and 53 for Nordiyya (in Ngrams, the latter two don't even qualify for inclusion), which points towards Nordia being the WP:COMMONNAME. Number 57 12:17, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

A verbatim quote from WP:COMMONNAME: In determining which of several alternative names is most frequently used, it is useful to observe the usage of major international organizations, major English-language media outlets, quality encyclopedias, geographic name servers, major scientific bodies, and notable scientific journals. (emphasis added) --My another account (talk) 12:37, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

I still don't see how these sources are relevant for a village in Israel given how few times they would likely reference it. Number 57 12:52, 29 November 2018 (UTC)

Comment: Tempest in a teacup. There is no "right" transliteration. Just add a redirect for the alternate spelling/s and be done with it.--Geewhiz (talk) 10:08, 25 November 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.