Talk:List of music students by teacher: A to B

Talk:List of music students by teacher: C to F, etc. redirect back here.

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Discussion

See: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Classical music/Archive 50#"Pupils and pupils of pupils of X". Hyacinth (talk) 22:02, 12 April 2014 (UTC)

Mislisting

The students listed under Heinrich Schenker are actually students of Heinrich Schütz. I'll just go ahead and correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Batonpower (talk • contribs) 16:13, 15 April 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. Hyacinth (talk) 05:56, 1 October 2014 (UTC)

List of music students by teacher

From: User talk:Hyacinth#List of music students by teacher

List of music students by teacher is a member of Category:Pages with too many expensive parser function calls.

Edit that article, and then Show preview, and note the message at the top:

Warning: This page contains too many expensive parser function calls.
It should have less than 500 calls, there are now 3,877 calls.

As the category documentation explains:

Category:Pages with too many expensive parser function calls is populated automatically by the MediaWiki software. It lists articles that issue too many expensive parser function calls. As of 14 October 2010, expensive function calls are #ifexist, {{PAGESINCATEGORY}} and {{PAGESIZE}}. These pages should be edited to reduce the number of expensive calls.

Per WP:EXPENSIVE: There is a limit of 500 to the expensive parser function count, i.e., the number of calls of expensive parser functions, which include:

• #ifexist – branching depending on whether a particular page exists. If the limit on this counter is exceeded, additional #ifexist calls will act as though the pages they query do not exist.

Template:List of music students by teacher seems to be transcluded many times by that article. The first line of that template has the code:

{{#ifexist: Template:List of music students by teacher/{{{1|}}}

That appears to be the source of the issue. So perhaps you can re-design what you're trying to do. Splitting List of music students by teacher into portions of the alphabet may help, as that list is getting quite long (a lot of notable music students on Wikipedia!). Regards, Wbm1058 (talk) 15:24, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

P.S. Note that Template:List of music students by teacher/S is also in Category:Pages with too many expensive parser function calls. Wbm1058 (talk) 15:26, 12 November 2014 (UTC)

HELLO? Your recent editing is generating all sorts of errors. For example Template:List of music students by teacher/Paul Hindemith is in Category:Pages with broken reference names and List of music students by teacher has been tagged with {{dablinks}} by a bot. I don't really follow the point of what you are doing. Are you going to fix all of these errors? Please pause for a moment to discuss here; if you don't respond I may take this to the village pump. Thanks, Wbm1058 (talk) 02:28, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

I have removed Template:List of music students by teacher/Paul Hindemith from Category:Pages with broken reference names and other entries will follow.

The template, and the bot that tagged the article with it, fails to explain what it would take to remove the template. You fail to mention the pre-existing template tag and associated problems.

Hyacinth (talk) 09:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

Right, I don't know offhand what the {{dablinks}} problem is, other than it wasn't there until you made your edits. It would take some more of my time to track down the issue. But generally, the problem is that you have been taking complete, and error-free (as far as I know) article(s) and breaking them up into templates. Your fix for the template {{List of music students by teacher/Paul Hindemith}} may have removed the errors from the template itself, but are the references still working on the page(s) that it is transcluded to? Look at Template:List of music students by teacher/H. Note all the cite errors in the "template documentation" at the bottom.

Let's try approaching this from the other direction. Rather than me try to further explain all the errors I am seeing, please explain the errors or problems you were seeing before you started working on this project, or what the improvements you are making and why. Maybe there is a better way to solve the problems you are working on. Thanks, Wbm1058 (talk) 15:11, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

The analysis that the "ifexists" are the culprits is correct. I'll see if there's a better solution. Be aware, though, that there is a long-standing opposition to having content in templates. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 15:58, 14 November 2014 (UTC).

Thanks, Rich. Note also that List of music students by teacher is now in Category:Pages where template include size is exceeded. This is why the templates in the references section are not transcluded and thus the references are not appearing in this article. Hyacinth is bumping into several of the technical limitations of the wiki software, and we need to collaborate to find ways to work around those limits. I do have some idea of what Hyacinth is doing, but would rather they explain to me in their own words than guess. Thanks. Wbm1058 (talk) 16:04, 14 November 2014 (UTC)

It is a Good Idea, but as you say runs up against both technical and cultural limits. It allows one to jump from pupil to their pupils (though it doesn't have a link back up the tre to teachers. It is slightly broken in that you cannot jump from a sup-page (../A) but that is a minor fix. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC).

(ec) OK here are my thoughts, two possible (semi)automatic solutions and one that won't work:

1. Use a bot to update the links.
2. Periodically regenerate the problem pages using recursive substitution.
3. Subst: the items where the [pupils] exist to reduce the count (this won't work because there are too many without pupils)

Of course maintaining it manually might not be as onerous as it appears, though it does mean checking every time an entry is added at the teacher level to see if they are anyone's pupil. (New pupils can use a subst: template that links to the teacher level if it exists.)

HTH. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC).

4. Use Lua. This would (might) work well on a big page, but not so well for sub pages. It could also do the back-links to teachers.

It might be worth thinking about redirects too, but I'm not sure about that.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 16:24, 14 November 2014 (UTC).

Template:LMST

Per the discussion above, I created {{LMST}}. As it says on the documentation:

• it can be used with every student on the list(s), including those with piped links.
• it, by default, displays a link to the each student's section as a teacher, which may be suppressed if nonexistent/not yet listed.
• it, by default, links to the same page it is used on, currently 'A to M' or 'N to Z', which may be switched.

If this template seems worthwhile I could add it to the entries on the list. Hyacinth (talk) 08:33, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

{{LMSTA}} is very similar. It figures out for itself which page to link to, 'A to M' or 'N to Z', but requires first and last to be split into two parameters. Hyacinth (talk) 09:44, 3 December 2014 (UTC)

The templates {{First word}} and {{Last word}} might come in handy. All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 23:09, 9 December 2014 (UTC).

Thanks, but I believe {{Last word}} would not accommodate alphabetizing by last name people with a space in their last name/two word last name. "de Mille" would be alphabetized under "Mille". Hyacinth (talk) 09:30, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Unless someone created a second template for the exceptions, such as {{LMSTA3}}. Hyacinth (talk) 19:02, 12 January 2015 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of music students by teacher: J to R

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of [[:List of music students by teacher: J to R]]'s orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Randel373":

• From [[List of music students by teacher: S to Z]]: Randel (1996), p. 373
• From [[List of music students by teacher: A to I]]: Randel (1996), p.373.

Reference named "Randel229":

• From List of music students by teacher: S to Z: Randel (1996), p. 229
• From List of music students by teacher: A to I: Randel (1996), p.229.

Reference named "Randel249":

• From List of music students by teacher: S to Z: Randel (1996), p. 249
• From List of music students by teacher: A to I: Randel (1996), p.249.

Reference named "Randel568":

• From List of music students by teacher: S to Z: Randel (1996), p. 568
• From List of music students by teacher: A to I: Randel (1996), p.568.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:31, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Orphaned references in List of music students by teacher: S to Z

I check pages listed in Category:Pages with incorrect ref formatting to try to fix reference errors. One of the things I do is look for content for orphaned references in wikilinked articles. I have found content for some of List of music students by teacher: S to Z's orphans, the problem is that I found more than one version. I can't determine which (if any) is correct for this article, so I am asking for a sentient editor to look it over and copy the correct ref content into this article.

Reference named "Randel482":

• From List of music students by teacher: J to R: Randel (1996), p.482.
• From List of music students by teacher: A to M: #Randel (1996), p.482.

Reference named "Randel781":

• From List of music students by teacher: J to R: Randel (1996), p. 781
• From List of music students by teacher: A to M: Randel (1996), p.781.

Reference named "Randel45":

• From List of music students by teacher: A to M: Randel (1996), p.45.
• From List of music students by teacher: J to R: Randel (1996), p. 45

Reference named "Randel484":

• From List of music students by teacher: J to R: Randel (1996), p. 484
• From List of music students by teacher: A to M: Randel (1996), p.484.

Reference named "Randel25":

• From List of music students by teacher: J to R: Randel (1996), p. 25
• From List of music students by teacher: A to M: Randel (1996), p.25.

I apologize if any of the above are effectively identical; I am just a simple computer program, so I can't determine whether minor differences are significant or not. AnomieBOT⚡ 16:17, 18 December 2014 (UTC)

Sources

I believe I have used Google Books to search the following sources for the following phrases and added the available results to the list:

Source	Phrase (# of results)	Source	Phrase (# of results)
Christensen (2002)	"studied with" (1) "student of" (7) "pupil" (10)	Greene (1985)	"studied with" (62) "student of" (18) "pupil" (83)
Griffiths (2004)	"studied with" (100) "student of" (8) "pupil" (95)	Griffiths (2011)	"studied with" (11) "student of" (2) "pupil" (15)
Jones (2014)	"studied with" (84) "student of" (6) "pupil" (83)	Mason (1917)	"studied with" (100) "student of" (13)
Randel (1996)	"studied with" (74) "student of" (64) "pupil" (78)	Gagné (2012)	"studied with" (69) "student" (11) "pupil" (6)

Other possibilities are "teacher of" and "taught", "student/studied under", etc.. Most likely, there is a lot missed (even discounting missed phrasing such as "studied tuba with"). Hyacinth (talk) 15:56, 31 December 2014 (UTC)

Citations

I have moved some citations, those with multiple callouts having page numbers, to a separate alphabetical list after the references:

• easier to find the citation corresponding to multiple callouts if it is in an alphabetical list
• easier to copy citations to other lists (some are currently missing, lists may need to be split again)

I'll be making the corresponding changes to the other lists, but the final change is easier once other minor problems have been sorted out, as you can see from the recent edits to this article. We can I think leave citations without page numbers in the callouts as at present.

Any remaining missing citations (the original motivation for this change) will be tagged with {{full}}. Any callouts missing pages will be tagged with {{page needed}} --Mirokado (talk) 13:56, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Referring to Hyancinth's post above, I have resolved the Randel 1996 references in List of music students by teacher: R to S to The Harvard biographical dictionary of music (the first reference I checked was clear including correct page number). Another book by Randel was reprinted in 1996, so I suppose some of the references may also come from that. Here is the citation in case we need to add it later:

• Randel, Don Michael (1996) [First published 1986]. The new Harvard dictionary of music. Cambridge, MA; London: The Belknap Press of Harvard University Press. ISBN 978-0-674-61525-0.

(I've also made this a subsection of the previous post so they can get archived together, for clarity). -- Mirokado (talk) 14:08, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Ravel

I am surprised that no mention is made of Maurice Ravel in these lists. According to his biographer Arbie Orenstein, Ravel's main pupils were Maurice Delage, Alexis Roland-Manuel, Manuel Rosenthal and Ralph Vaughan Williams. Source: Orenstein, Arbie (1991) [1975]. Ravel: Man and Musician. Dover. ISBN 978-0-486-26633-6. page 112. Ravel's own teachers were Émile Decombes, Charles-Wilfrid de Bériot, Émile Pessard, André Gedalge and Gabriel Fauré. Source: Orenstein, pp. 11 (Decombes), 14 (de Bériot), 15 (Pessard) and 19 (Gedalge and Fauré). I had a go at adding this information myself, but I couldn't crack the coding of the table. – Tim riley talk 08:06, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Done. --Mirokado (talk) 11:08, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

Sibelius pupils

Hi...I'm not a skilled enough wikipedian to understand the (what I see as) advanced code on this page, and so I don't want to mess with it myself. Would someone familiar with this page, however, be willing to create Pupils of Jean Sibelius, and add the following three individuals:

1. Toivo Kuula
2. Leevi Madetoja
3. Bengt de Törne

Many, many thanks!

Oh, and while we're at it, my research has found that Madetoja really wasn't a student of Vincent d'Indy, as the two only had ONE LESSON before the master fell ill and cancelled all further plans. Moreover, Madetoja was also a student of Robert Fuchs. Sgvrfjs (talk) 16:00, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

Also, Sibelius was, in addition to being a student of Robert Fuchs, a pupil of Karl Goldmark (who doesn't appear on the list as a teacher) and Martin Wegelius. Sgvrfjs (talk) 16:05, 21 July 2016 (UTC)

This has been done. Not sure by who, but it's done. I added a couple more teachers named in Jean Sibelius article.Tunborough (talk) 13:17, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Template:LMSTA doesn't handle lower case

{{LMSTA3|John|de Lancie}}, or even {{LMSTA|John|deLancie}}, produces a "pupils" link to the A to B page, when the link should point to the C to F page in this case. Is anyone able to correct the template? Tunborough (talk) 02:18, 17 February 2017 (UTC) For the cases where a non-sorting prefix is separated by a space (for example "de", "von") we can proceed as follows, for example with Allard de Ridder (the first example I happen to have looked at:

• first check the DEFAULTSORT invocation in the article. In this case it is {{DEFAULTSORT:Ridder, Allard de}} so we indeed want to sort under "R".
• we can move the space-separated prefix "de" to the end of the given name part of the {{LMSTT}} and {{LMSTA}} invocations. This is OK because the templates are generating no metadata for each parameter. Thus we replace ...|Allard|de Ridder... by ...|Allard de|Ridder... in all the invocations.
• we can see which files we expect to edit by looking at the section listing the pupils (who should have a section if there is a pupils link) and teacher's teachers (who should have a section)
• we add the section to its new file, update template invocations and remove the section from the original file

I've just done de Ridder and will start working through other examples, but they probably won't all be done in one session. --Mirokado (talk) 15:33, 17 June 2017 (UTC)

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George Enescu. Suggest Ginette Neveu is added to his pupil list. AnnaComnemna (talk) 08:15, 24 March 2019 (UTC)

Cotumaci & his student Azopardi

According to the wikipage Francesco Azopardi and, one presumes the reference given there, the thesis by Buhagiar, Azopardi was a student of Cotumaci, therefore deserving a link in the appropriate place. I tried, but the formatting of this section is obscure to me Brunswicknic (talk) 08:00, 26 December 2019 (UTC)

Potential name change

Am I missing something JackofOz, Toccata quarta, Gerda Arendt, or should all of these lists be "List of classical music students by teacher"? I see a couple of Jazz musicians, but overwhelming just classical ones. If we keep the current name, people are going to start adding teachers of pop, rock etc. musicians. Aza24 (talk) 22:39, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

I broadly agree, with the caveat that the boundary between classical and other is very hazy. People who performed exclusively in the jazz or pop genres but happened to have classical training - do they belong? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 23:29, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

JackofOz, apologies, I seem to have forgotten about this—I'd say they still belong here, as if they had classical training then they were a "classical music student"—if that makes sense? Aza24 (talk) 17:36, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Proposed additional Schnabel pupil

Happened upon this very interesting page while researching British pianist (Harold) John Hunt, who was very active in England and continental Europe between 1930 and 1963. He studied with Schnabel in Berlin between 1928 and 1930. I have a number of newspaper article attesting to the studies, and one source to the actual dates. Also studied with Harold Craxton at the RAM, as did Peter Katin. Neither is on the respective lists, so am not sure what the criteria for inclusion are. The potential immensity of this list suggests there must be some. Rgrames (talk) 15:21, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

I think both those pianists merit inclusion in this list, and Hunt probably deserves a WP entry of his own (should you have enough information and inclination). I don't think there are any criteria for this list beyond notability and a legitimate citation for the period of study. Go for it! pgbrown (talk) 15:29, 12 March 2021 (UTC)