Talk:List of Hungarian Australians

Hajnal Ban

Hajnal Ban has been removed from this list by editor ShipFan, claiming she cannot be Hungarian because she was born in Israel. Ms Ban clearly does qualify for this list. Being born in Israel does not mean she is not Hungarian. This list is meant to include Hungarian-Australians and their descendents. Many Hungarians in this list were born in other countries, such as Germany, Slovakia, Serbia, Austria and the United States. Yet when an Israeli-born Hungarian is included she is deleted. This does not make sense and she should be restored. Someone has commented on ShipFan's talk page and he or she has not responded. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 124.180.131.197 (talk) 08:41, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Message to: User 203.166.252.28 Your entry of 25 January 2014, under View history/revision history in this website, had reduced the running total balance of bytes by 476, from the pre-existing 67,067 down to 66,591 bytes. Could you please state what kind of alterations you have made and your reasons for them. I think it would be fair to expect an explanation for the benefit of all readers and myself in view of the 476 bytes involved in your revision, and the extensive website content. Thank you. Attilaurm - 7 February 2014.

Large-scale removal of entries

I have reverted an edit that removed a large number of entries from this list. The stated rationale for this reversion is that the entries were "non-notable". I believe this was incorrect (even though done in good faith), for the following reasons:

• Individual entires in a list do not need to be notable, per WP:LISTN. To quote specifically, "Because the group or set is notable, the individual items in the list do not need to be independently notable.".
• Some entries that were removed, such as Cecilia Burke, are arguably notable on their own, even though they do not yet have their own entry.

While I have no objection to certain entries being trimmed out of the list, I don't believe that a mass deletion is appropriate in this case, at least without further discussion and consensus on this talk page to do so. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 02:27, 14 September 2014 (UTC).

Regarding Burke, that was indeed a mistake on my part; I had intended to leave obviously notable people such as Olympian sportspeople on the list. In general, WP:LISTPEOPLE, which concerns stand-alone lists of people, indeed says that individual notability is required for inclusion. To quote specifically: "A person may be included in a list of people if all the following requirements are met: The person meets the Wikipedia notability requirement. ..." Surely you don't mean to say that every person whom we can verify to be a Hungarian in Australia should be listed here. So if you disagree with LISTPEOPLE, what would you consider a meaningful inclusion criterion for this list? As a first step I'll remove everybody without a third-party source. Huon (talk) 03:17, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Clearly, there's some entries here that probably could/should be removed. I'd be happy to remove anyone where:

• There is no documented evidence that they are Hungarian-Australia, or that the person identifies as such; or
• There is a consensus amongst the usual editors of this page to remove an entry.

To address your other argument, I'd wager that an otherwise undistinguished Hungarian-Australian won't be able to meet the first of these points, so anyone we do retain will have at least a claim to notability. I think this requires a careful process with multiple people looking at each case to come up with an opinion rather than using the brushcutter to get rid of anyone without an article. Lankiveil ^{(speak to me)} 03:55, 14 September 2014 (UTC).

Since you apparently think even people without third-party coverage should not be removed, I won't bother with this list any further; arguing about every single non-notable person simply isn't worth the effort. Have fun with a list of all people who note on their personal websites that they're Hungarian-Australian. Can't be more than a few thousand people. Huon (talk) 04:34, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

You deleted a lot of people who have received an Order of Australia, while this doesnt alone bestow notability its a bloody good indicator that these people are sufficiently notable for this list and could all likelihood have individual articles, then theres the 2 times world champion, Head of the Human rights commission, published authors, that were also removed...As for third party the majority of those you removed were sourced nobody disputes that some people in this list should be removed they only dispute the careless way in which it was done. Gnangarra 04:49, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, regarding the "consensus amongst the usual editors of this page" proposed by Lankiveil, that would be a consensus of one: The only "usual editor" is Attilaurm who has a long history of adding unverifiable entries of dubious notability. I do not think the fact that he has been doing so for two years, with no other regular contributors to this page, should mean he gets to own the list.

Secondly, regarding "carelessness", what I'd consider careless is reverting an edit in whole although there's agreement that parts of it were appropriate. In fact, the re-addition of unsourced claims about living persons is arguably a WP:BLP violation.

Thirdly, especially the various Order of Australia awardees tend to come without a source confirming they're Hungarians (and there seems to be some contention regarding how much "Hungarian-ness" is required for inclusion in this list. Born in Hungary? Born to Hungarian parents? Self-identifies as an ethnic Hungarian?). The same holds for the two-time world champion and the former Victorian Human Rights Commissioner. Good that I didn't bother with trying to fix this mess after Lankiveil named his inclusion criteria, because I would still have removed those, and wasted another couple of hours to determine which entries met his criteria just to have my efforts blanket reverted by the next person with different vague, policy-defying criteria. Huon (talk) 15:20, 14 September 2014 (UTC)

Elischer de Thurzobanya, Julius William (Gyula) (1918 - 2004)

Born in 1918 in Budapest into a professional family background of medicine, the arts and architecture, Julius Elischer’s architectural education and postgraduate studies were interrupted by the later stages of the European War. Displaced from Hungary, he worked in Germany on reconstruction projects and competitions, before immigrating to Melbourne in 1951. Coming to Perth with Stramit in 1957, Elischer decided to remain and he worked as an architectural draughtsman. After a stint teaching design at Cornell in 1963 (on the basis of a 1950 competition win while still in Germany), he returned to Perth to register as an architect and formally open his practice. He retired in 1986, though his staff continued the office until 1991. Now 85 years old, he gave a short and moving speech at the opening of the exhibition.

Apart from his practice, Elischer was also involved in architectural education and maintained wider interests in the construction industry. He developed lightweight panel systems, took out various patents and was a joint partner in a prefabrication business with activities in remote WA, South-east Asia and at one point Africa. As an architectural student at UWA in the latter half of the seventies, I had Julius as year convenor for two of the five years of the course. My relationship with him was ambivalent. He avoided intellectualizing and was exasperated by the preoccupations of the time, later labelled “post-modern”. It was easy, then, to stereotype him as a narrow Modernist. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 139.130.189.146 (talk) 05:30, 3 November 2014 (UTC)

CHARLES ZENTAI (Alleged WWII criminal)

Message to contributor Magiolatidis who deleted entirely my essential information entry of 6 April 2015, with reference to Charles Zentai, on the grounds that it had not been properly referenced. Please note that there is never a need to seek and supply a cross-referencing tag for my additional information since it had been obtained "verbatim" from WIKIPEDIA's article on Charles Zentai. The actual source is the HIGH COURT OF AUSTRALIA"s final and absolute deliberation in the case. Thank you however for the required format correction. Signed Attilaurm (talk) 14:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC) 9 April 2015.

Quite the contrary: Wikipedia does not consider itself a reliable source (see WP:CIRCULAR), ...

Indeed! That's why there is no case to argue. Indeed, there is no use-case to use wkipedia at all. Totally unreliable, opinionated non-source.

... and there are severe WP:BLP issues when using court records to write about an alleged war criminal. In fact, WP:BLPPRIMARY explicitly prohibits the use of court records as sources of biographical information on living persons. Besides, this is a list, not a collection of mini-biographies; whatever the High Court of Australia may have decided belongs in the article on Zentai, not here. Huon (talk) 00:39, 9 April 2015 (UTC)

• My response to user codenamed HUON who unjustifiably removed on 9 April 2015, my valid entry in respect of Charles Zentai, the alleged WWII criminal:

To any sensible Wikipedian it is just as important to know the allegation of serious crime as it is to know the final and conclusive deliberation of the High Court of Australia in this matter of general interest across Australia, aired in this public forum. The one sentence addition is not a mini-biography and to claim so would be nonsensical. Contrary to claim, no cross-referencing had been made for it. Perhaps my additional input sentence should have had the same cross-referencing information that appears in Wikipedia's website for Charles Zentai under No 12 cross-reference number: Huffington Post (World News newspaper USA) issue of 15 August 2012 (where a big headline and a full article of the respectable, worldwide circulation newspaper elaborates on Australia's High Court decision). A quick x-ref. verification could be made by one and all to support my contention. For the records, my one sentence addition was: "Australia's highest court ruled on 15 August 2012 that 90-year-old Zentai cannot be extradited to Hungary because the offence of a "war crime" did not exist in Hungarian law in 1944." I openly invite Wikipedian experts in this field to resolve this issue. Thank you.Attilaurm (talk) 12:12, 9 April 2015 (UTC) 9 April 2015.

3O Response: Wikipedia does not use itself as a reference. Huon IS an expert. Find sources, use the sources in the other Wikipedia article if they are valid, and cite them here, in this article. The added material contained original research and was appropriately deleted. It should only be restored if properly sourced within this article. ScrapIronIV (talk) 13:41, 15 April 2015 (UTC)

Frank John Vajda

This is another instance of an unreferenced entry assigning someone an ethnicity in violation of WP:BLP. The IP editor is entirely correct in removing Vajda even if they weren't speaking on Vajda's behalf. He should not be re-added unless reliable third-party sources provide evidence of both his notability and his Hungarian-ness. Huon (talk) 11:19, 2 May 2015 (UTC)

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Nick Greiner

Is there a good reason why the person who has attained the highest political office of all Hungarian Australians namely Nick Greiner born 1947 in Budapest, former premier of NSW, current president of the Liberal Party, Companion of the Order of Australia, etc, etc is not listed?? 110.141.246.202 (talk) 14:26, 16 January 2020 (UTC)