Talk:Killing of Tamir Rice

Contested deletion

Why on earth would this article be nominated for deletion,speedy or otherwise? No rationale is given, unless you want to wade through a labyrinth of wikipedia links. Some are quipping that wikipedia is not for "breaking news". Really? It has been that way for what, over a decade now?50.246.59.69 (talk) 05:19, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

This page should not be speedily deleted because... (your reason here) --surfbird (talk) 02:27, 24 November 2014 (UTC) Problem with the post due to conflicting edits; about to remedy.

Because Wikipedia is the place for breaking news! 2.98.241.120 (talk) 17:12, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Because this is World news and related to another Wikipedia worthy event; 'Hundreds blocked traffic in Cleveland, Ohio, in a separate demonstration over the fatal shooting of a 12-year-old boy by a police officer' [1] Dbdb (talk) 06:19, 26 November 2014 (UTC)

Hey yo i think it should be called Murder of Tamir Rice and it should say murder instead of shooting or whatever.

This is news worldwide, the suggestion to delete an article about the police practically executing a 12 year old is very notable, shame on the person suggesting the deletion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.50.128 (talk) 14:15, 27 November 2014 (UTC)

Because it's pretty standard for articles to come up from deletion before they explode in the press and unfortunately our seven day AFD process means that the discussion looks out of place as the news moves. Almost every major story I can recall was listed for AFD at the time it was blowing up. -- Ricky81682 (talk) 08:20, 29 November 2014 (UTC)

Irrelevant and misleading statement

The addition of the sentence in the first paragraph of "Neither officer administered any first aid to the child after the shooting" is irrelevant and biased to make the reader to believe they should have. Police do not have the equipment nor methods to administer first aid to most situations, especially gun shot wounds. It is the same with critically wounded individuals in car crashes, falls, etc. Police *may* administer CPR to cardiac arrests and choking, and perhaps a direct applying pressure to a directly observable artery. Police do not under policy or ability treat gun shot victims. This is a fact. Including that line, regardless of the wrong or right of the situation, is unnecessary.

While I'm fairly confident you can't, please provide sources for your irrelevant and false claims. Also, if you don't want to sign your post, then either A. Don't post or B. end your post with 4 tildes40.142.183.146 (talk) 17:19, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

new section "missing facts"

I would like to add a "missing facts" section. Because people come here to learn the facts.

Why on earth did the senior police officer drive the car like hell into the park on the grass directly to the victim so that his partner could easily be shot when leaving the car ???? If they indeed would have suspected the victim to be dangerous this would be so stupid that it would indeed be criminal stupid. If they would have identified the victim as a threat, they ought to have stopped their car at a save distance and take out their rifles. With what we know so far it is obvious that the police officers intentionally escalated the situation to such a cutting edge that the rookie officer had no choice but to shoot immediately. Therefore the police must have some "excuse" about why they drove right into the park. That is crucial information missing. --Robo Durden (talk) 17:38, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

I'll have to find it, but I remember seeing an article that noted that the officer had lost control of his car on a patch of ice, which caused it to slide up to the point he stopped. I know several news agencies (CBS, Fox, CNN) mentioned this in passing, but it seems that the mention was lost in the entire flap of the shooting incident itself. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.190.254.108 (talk) 10:34, 14 February 2015 (UTC)

The death of Tamir Rice was premeditated years before Tamir Rice was ever born. And those guilty of the murder and the covering up of the facts of the premeditation death of Tamir Rice should be arrested and sent to FEDERAL PRISON for the wrongful, premeditated death of Tamir Rice. Haskell Brown Jr (talk) 18:33, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

The death of Tamir Rice is also a Federal Military case. During the year of 1984, after the month of July at the Old Bal Boa Navy Hospitals mental ward, the parents to be of Tamir Rice were as children their selves, and were at the Old Bal Boa Navy Hospitals mental ward supposently as visitors. And also Tim Mc Gintney of the Cleveland, Ohio police was at the Bal Boa Navy Hospitals mental ward also and with the future parents of Tamir Rice and to be a witness to the premeditation killing of Tamir Rice, and Steve Loomis was also their at the Old Bal Boa Navy Hospitals mental ward to also to be a witness of the premeditation death of Tamir Rice before he was ever born. And the two Cleveland, Ohio police who were involved in the death of Tamir Rice were at the Old Bal Boa Navy Hospitals mental ward at the same of the premeditation of the death of Tamir Rice was born. Now those are some of the unknown facts that need to be known of the premeditation and death of Tamir Rice.

Haskell Brown Jr (talk) 19:20, 26 April 2016 (UTC)

The Shooting section

The article says "The video shows the officers' patrol car pulling up beside the gazebo. Rice then appears to move his right hand toward his waist, prompting Loehmann, to get out of the patrol car and shoot him from a distance of less than ten feet, within two seconds."

This makes it seem like the officer simply drove up to the suspect and shot him, akin to an extrajudicial execution, especially with the addition of "within two seconds." However, NBC news states the officer actually "yelled at the boy three times to show his hands as the car neared the gazebo. Police circled a frame of the video in red that shows Tamir moving his hand — apparently to signal the moment they say the youth reached for the pellet gun. Loehmann shot him immediately after leaving his police car, at a distance of about 10 feet, the video shows." In other words, Rice was shot after reaching for his gun which was after he was told to "show his hands," aka surrender. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.216.153.148 (talk) 06:02, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

Ohio is an open-carry state. Isn't that relevant? Michtom (talk) 09:17, 6 February 2018 (UTC)

Misleading lede

The second sentence of this article misleads about what the officers were told:

"Two police officers, 26-year-old Timothy Loehmann and 46-year-old Frank Garmback, responded after receiving reports of a boy armed with a gun described as "probably fake", and brandishing it at people in a city park." [underlining added]

According to multiple sources, the police dispatcher at no time relayed information that the gun was "probably fake":

The Washington Post: "But information about the gun possibly being fake wasn’t mentioned to the officers in a call to them about a young black male with a gun in a park."[2]

The Guardian Newspaper: "Tomba was asked why the notion that the gun was 'probably fake' was never communicated to the responding officers. 'We need to get that information to that zone car,' Tomba said. 'That is part of our investigation.' "[3]

The 911 caller repeatedly described Rice as "a guy." The police dispatch call described Rice as a "young black male." No one described him as "a boy."

The Guardian Newspaper: "In none of the calls is Rice identified as a probable minor."[4]

== BoringHistoryGuy (talk) 17:40, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. This needs to be fixed right away. I'm a little short on time. Do you have time to fix it? Gandydancer (talk) 18:04, 8 December 2014 (UTC)

In addition to questions about the veracity of these statements, I'm disappointed by the bad English grammar: "At the beginning of the call and again in the middle he says of the pistol "it's probably fake."[4] Toward the end of the two-minute call, the caller stated "he is probably a juvenile."[5] However, THIS INFORMATION was not relayed to Loehmann or Garmback on the initial dispatch" It is not possible to tell whether "this information" refer to the status of the pistol, the age of the offender, or both.§

It is also completely irrelevant. Why would the dispatcher repeat the guesses of the caller about the lethality of the weapon? Why would the caller's estimates of the person's age be relevant to the situation? Because "a juvenile" (is that age 3 to 18?) can't fire a gun?? 40.142.183.146 (talk) 17:43, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

'African American' in descriptor

Tamir's identity as an African American is a defining aspect of this event and this article, as evidenced in virtually all of the WP:Reliable sources within it, and in the public reactions to the case (as documented by reliable sources). Wikipedia is neutral but not racially color-blind. Benefac (talk) 04:38, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

Weight

Reviewing the video, I cannot believe that this child weighed 195 pounds, as claimed in the autopsy report. Surely the medical examiner must have issued a correction, but I don't know where to find it.--~TPW 12:58, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

From the autopsy report "Tamir stood 5 feet 7 inches tall and weighed 195 pounds." Those figures match well enough. Not a fact an M.E. would likely get wrong. Three d dave (talk) 00:19, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The question is if it's a typo. When I was 5'7", a little older than Tamir, I weighed around 140-160. I didn't weigh 195 until I was 18 - at 6' 1". FWIW. Certainly, there are many 5'7" adults that heavy, especially now days. It isn't controversial that Tamir is described as "big" for his age - I'd say 195 is *really* big! (CDC Growth Chart shows 5'7" substantially above the 95%, WHO shows it between 95% & 99%, CDC shows 195 lbs far, far off the chart above 95%). The photo included seems to me somewhat inconsistent with this child's stats. R.I.P.40.142.183.146 (talk) 18:15, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Could it be that the family-provided, undated photo is much older than the adult-sized person in mid-2014? FChE (talk) 00:33, 1 January 2017 (UTC)

really?

"...extending his right arm with what COULD be a gun..." are you serious? the article can't just state that he's obviously pointing the gun around? this is NPOV — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.127.249.170 (talk) 14:59, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

why doesnt the article say "...while talking on what appears to be a cell phone, but may in fact be a banana...he appears to sit at the gazebo, but might actually be hovering over it, motionless, eating what COULD be a said banana" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.127.249.170 (talk) 15:02, 24 May 2015 (UTC)

POV issues with the inconsistencies section

This section needs to be heavily revised; as-is, it is not particularly neutral. One of the inconsistencies isn't even clearly an inconsistency (the plastic tip was indubitably absent, and the article as-is doesn't make its significance clear), while another isn't an inconsistency but rather a matter of perception. Per [5]:

'Retired FBI special agent Kimberly A. Crawford said in her report that police were responding to a report of a person with a gun, and Loehmann had to make a "split-second" decision to use deadly force.'

'"Officer Loehmann's attention would be focused on Rice's hands as they moved towards his waist band and lifted his jacket. Unquestionably, the actions of Rice could reasonably be perceived as a serious threat to Officer Loehmann," Crawford wrote.'

Another expert noted that a detective on the scene had difficulty distinguishing the airsoft gun from a Colt 1911. Right now, the section is rather misleading. Titanium Dragon (talk) 07:24, 11 October 2015 (UTC)

Wrong information

"Rice's gun was later found to be an Airsoft replica that lacked, and was not legally required to possess,[12] the orange safety feature marking it as a replica"

The cited law says "traditional B-B, paintball, or pellet-firing airguns" but an airsoft replica is none of these things. A traditional B-B (Stands for Ball Bearing) is a steel 4.5mm spherical projectile, not the plastic or ceramic 6mm projectile that airsoft replicas use.

BB does not stand for ball bearing, and an airsoft replica is considered a pellet firing airgun 204.112.224.105 (talk) 22:05, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

Grand jury

What was the racial makeup of the grand jury that failed to indict the officers in December 2015? 173.89.236.187 (talk) 03:26, 29 December 2015 (UTC)

We don't know the racial makeup of the grand jury, or even who was on that kangaroo court.... They were directed to keep their identities secret, and not to vote on an indictment, basically resulting in one of the city's biggest miscarriages of justice. This amounts to a modern-day lynching in Ohio.... A hotbed for white supremacists, even though the stereotype is that more racism occurs in the Southeastern US. A 12 year old child cannot be expected to understand the implications of roaming around in public with what looks like a handgun. This entire incident, from the day of the event, to the lawsuit for the ambulance ride truly makes me feel ashamed of our country... We are supposed to be better than this! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.28.176.168 (talk) 01:18, 16 February 2016 (UTC)

Other shootings in See Also

That list of other shootings smacks of Wikipedia:Advocacy. Unless connections can be demonstrated in the article, the list should be removed. Toddst1 (talk) 18:51, 7 July 2016 (UTC)

Biography

May Tamir Rice have an entry in the Wikipedia as a person, not ONLY as part the incident which made him famous? Jplvnv (talk) 11:41, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Well, I very much doubt it... Gandydancer (talk) 16:13, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

Wording in lead

I did a little research on whether the correct terminology re the dispatcher's call said "black male" or "male black" or only "male" and sources that I found used all of these. It is hard to hear the voice recording in the ref that we are using for the statement. I did find that Mother Jones has both the voice transcript along with the words and it plainly says, "black male". Here: [6] Gandydancer (talk) 16:12, 25 September 2017 (UTC)

External links modified

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Race of officer and victim

As discussed above in #'African American' in descriptor, the race of the shooter and the victim are key to the notability of the event and is widely used by reliable sources when discussing it. E.g., [7], [8], [9], [10], Per WP:DUE, were need to include that info too. EvergreenFir (talk) 04:06, 24 July 2019 (UTC)

Someone's removing it every couple of hours and I'm just undoing it every time I see it... Eric.c.zhang (talk) 03:10, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

The race of the fatality is absolutely important to this article, as it is one of the many incidents that sparked the black lives matter movement. The race of the officer is less important, but can possibly be included as well. Frank Anchor^Talk 14:03, 6 June 2020 (UTC)

To add to article

To add to this article: a photograph of the airsoft gun. 173.88.246.138 (talk) 20:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Requested move 30 April 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move. Unanimous support and conforms with the linked flowchart. (closed by non-admin page mover) SITH (talk) 23:51, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

---

Shooting of Tamir Rice → Killing of Tamir Rice – Per WP:DEATHS: 'Shooting of...' 'Stabbing of...' etc. should only be used when the person in question did not die. In cases where the subject of the article died as a result of the event, page titles should be 'Killing of...' 'Murder of...' 'Suicide of...' or 'Execution of...' depending on the circumstance. This convention was published as part of WikiProject Death in December 2020 to establish a neutral and consistent naming convention around deaths on Wikipedia. All killings by police officers listed on Wikipedia since December 2020 have adopted this naming convention, including Duante Wright, Ma'Khia Bryant, Christan Hall, Adam Toledo, Dolal Idd, Andre Hill, and more. There is a growing community consensus to move older articles similar to this one to conform to the new convention published at WP:DEATHS; see Killing of Breonna Taylor (which, full disclosure, I initiated) and Killing of Eric Garner. Combefere ❯❯❯ Talk 21:02, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• Support: in addition to the good point about WP:DEATHS, Killing is the more accurate term. Reliable sources do not shy away from killing or killed, and there's no reason we shouldn't follow their lead. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 21:25, 30 April 2021 (UTC)
• Support: This is logical and consistent. Tribe of Tiger ^{Let's Purrfect!} 22:04, 30 April 2021 (UTC)

• Conditionally support Unless there are information regarding verdict, i believe the article should be moved as purposed until it will be move to "Murder of Tamir Rice" after conviction. 118.96.60.103 (talk) 02:20, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support as per nom and WP:DEATHS. 162 etc. (talk) 15:01, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support per WP:DEATHS. Ivey (talk) 21:42, 1 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support perfectly reasonable suggestion. --Goldsztajn (talk) 10:43, 3 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support - "Shooting" could refer to photography. HumanBodyPiloter5 (talk) 04:28, 5 May 2021 (UTC)
• Support per nom and WP:DEATHS. As the nominator points out, other similar police shootings already use the title "Killing of..." so it would make sense for this one to do the same. Frank Anchor^Talk 12:31, 5 May 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Semi-protected edit request on 8 November 2021

Hello, I am new and would like to add a citation from BBC News for a quote under the "Protests" heading. May I do so? Please advise. Thank you. --Lookfordiana (talk) 20:29, 8 November 2021 (UTC) Lookfordiana (talk) 20:29, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

If you link to the BBC News article, someone can add it for you. Cannolis (talk) 21:51, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 01:40, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Please feel free to reopen the request once you've provided the citation that you want added. You can do this by changing "answered=yes" to "answered=no" in the template at the top of this section. Tol (talk | contribs) @ 01:41, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 November 2021

Please add "White-American Police Officer", so as not to show clear national or racial Bias between the Officer and the Young man who was killed in the incident. Due to the nature and seriousness of the incident, it's inherently negligent and biased to mislabel characteristics of ones race and nationality to persuade individuals to distrust their institutions or garner altered view points. 2607:FB91:101:C573:AEF6:3517:3864:5628 (talk) 16:37, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This does not sound like an improvement, in as much as I can even understand what you're trying to say. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 16:46, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Sad. He probably thought he was playing with cop.

This is very sad. Tamir probably just thought it was a harmless game or something. MattL9 (talk) 01:46, 17 May 2023 (UTC)

He was pointing his gun at strangers. He may have thought a lot of things, but if he had any sense he'd not have believed it harmless. I have no opinion whether he had the sense to understand his behavior might be frightening to others, but I have to work a little at it. Too bad his parents didn't teach him better - or perhaps too bad he just didn't get it. His bad behavior got him in trouble, the police's bad behavior got him killed. IMHO. 40.142.183.146 (talk) 18:24, 20 August 2023 (UTC)