Talk:Kemenche

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Splitting Articles: IMPORTANT!Edit

I suggest that a seperate article be created for Armudi Kemençe aka Lyra. The two instruments (the Black Sea kemençe vs Lyra aka Armudi Kemençe) have little in common. Ekindedeoglu 17:13, 18 May 2007 (UTC)

Since no one is responding, I will soon take the liberty of spliting the article myself. I think it proper to create a joint article for the Lyra and the Classical (Armudi) kemençe, for the instrument is exactly the same one. I'm from Turkey, albeit I would think it immoral to group the whole thing under "Armudi Kemençe", for the same thing could be done under "Lyra"... Do you think an article name such as "Armudi Kemençe or Lyra" with redirects from both would be a plausible solution? (The order I chose is alphabetical, but if my Greek neighbors would absolutely prefer "Lyra or Armudi Kemençe", it can also be discussed :) ) By the way, "Kabak Kemane" doesn't have it place in here, it should also be a seperate article, yet I know little about the instrument and would ask someone else to do it. Ekindedeoglu 13:50, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

I changed my mind. Apparently in Greek, lyra may also refer to the Pontic kemençe. Before creating the article, I will wait to hear from Greeks to learn if the classical kemençe has a specific name in Greek. We could also keep kemençe as a generic name for the instruments in the article, but with fewer information. A picture gallery featuring different species may also be useful. Thank you. Ekindedeoglu 14:15, 19 May 2007 (UTC)

the greek name of kementzes is pontian lyre because of the existanse of another type of lyre in greek music,the cretan lyre.

Please check the Russian version of this article. Perhaps some pictures I uploaded to commons can be reused for this article. Avetik 18:31, 25 May 2007 (UTC)

Pease don't split this article as it is more easy to find out instruments by name, and it is more interesting to see the difference between them. 77.206.78.148 11:01, 12 October 2007 (UTC)

  • No, please split it, but reduce this to a reference list. That's what the user is asking for --Rfsmit (talk) 18:39, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

As far as I know the Cretan lyra and the Armudi/klasik kemençe are unambiguously identical, while the term lyra in wider Greek usage is a generic term for "fiddle," like the term saz is a generic for "instrument" in wider Turkish usage. I'd like to see 2 pages mysefl... eliotbates (talk) 03:09, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Noting an incorrect linking of the Cretan lira/lyra to the ancient lyre, I created a new Cretan lira page. This was before I found this article. If splitting this article is desired, the discussion of the Cretan lira could be moved to that page. I also took the liberty of changing a couple of links on this page from lyre to Cretan lira. Note: I redirected Cretan lyra to Cretan lira. I chose the English spelling "lira" over "lyra" based on (1) 173,000 Google hits for "Cretan lira" vs 63,000 for "Cretan lyra" and (2) less chance of confusion with "lyre." Emjem1963 (talk) 18:36, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

As this split request met no opposition, i will do the split soon.--Phso2 (talk) 14:05, 8 May 2012 (UTC)
  Agree --Clusternote (talk) 03:19, 8 June 2012 (UTC)

Masters of Classic KemencheEdit

I don't think that recent inclusion of a list masters of classic kemenche, which of itself is valuable information, is a good fit for this particular article. My suggestion would be to create a separate article with names of performers or, better yet, for each performer to create a separate article. That way article would stay focused on instrument and be readable. Avetik 12:45, 17 July 2007 (UTC)

Lira calabreseEdit

There appears to be an instrument similar to the classical kemence in Calabria, Italy, called the lira calabrese. See this video. I think we need an article on this. Badagnani (talk) 18:41, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


What is called classical kemence in this article is a direct descentant of the Eastern Roman (byzantine) lūra (or Lyra of the Constantinople) and is not closeley related to the Kurdish/Persian kemanche . Variations of lūra are found in many post-Byzantine regions. (Stevepeterson (talk) 02:36, 28 February 2009 (UTC))

Greek Pontian lyraEdit

In this case, Turkish names, didnt deleted. I just placed a pesian term cause its name derives from the Persian Kamancha and the Greek term which is pontian lyra, Otherwise kemenche is widely played in Greece by Pontian Greeks and very widespread instrument in Greece. --Peoplok (talk) 15:23, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

Kemençe and Pontian lyra are not the same things. Firstly, Turkish kemençe has a curved cover (kapak in Turkish) and lyra pontiaka has a plain cover. Secondly Turkish kemençe has do do# re mi fa sol la si variants. Pontian lyra has only do# re and mi variants. Length and width also different. Plus, the lyra pontiaka is played only by Greeks and is a derivative of Anatolian kemençe (but it is a different instrument). And, lastly kemençe is widely and only played in Turkey. I am also a kemençe player and I am highly knowledgeable about this topic. -F.Mehmet (talk) 15:48, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

This article includes both Pontian lyra, you may didnt noticed it,yet .Plus...Pontian lyra is related to the Greek: Byzantine lyra -Peoplok (talk) 15:52, 24 July 2011 (UTC)

File:Music lesson Staatliche Antikensammlungen 2421.jpg Nominated for DeletionEdit

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File:Goblet drum 01.jpg Nominated for DeletionEdit

  An image used in this article, File:Goblet drum 01.jpg, has been nominated for deletion at Wikimedia Commons in the following category: Deletion requests November 2011
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DAB pageEdit

This article should return to the DAB form : these instruments are not mere variations of the same instrument, nor do they belong to a general family (apart from being bowed string instr). They have different shape (box/bowl), different playing method (strings pressed on the neck/touched by the side), different repertoire (Pontian folk/Ottoman classical music), different history.--Phso2 (talk) 11:31, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

There are only two by this exact name, correct? WP:TWODABS applies, if everything else is a partial match. bd2412 T 12:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
the name of both in modern Turkish script is kemençe ; the "ç" being prononced "ch", or perhaps also because it was transliterrated from Ottoman script before 1928, you can very often find it written "kemenche" in Western langages context, and sometimes "kemence" (without "ç") in foreign context where the use of "ç" is not common. So the match with the Hungarian village seems relevant. If you want not to include mentions of "kamancheh" and "kemane", they are not strictly homonyms (but mark that "kamancheh" is nothing more than a translitteration among others, from Persian script) but in this particular case it seems (imho) rather pertinent to mention them, even if they are not strict homonyms (with this translitteration).--Phso2 (talk) 16:39, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
I don't see how this is different from flute, which is an article that covers different kinds of flutes with greater diversity of form than the difference between the two types of kemenche discussed under this title. With respect to the village, is it anywhere called "Kemenche"? bd2412 T 17:37, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Note also that the Pinksterboer reference that I added to the article treats both forms of kemenche as variations on the same theme. bd2412 T 18:06, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
The difference is that "Flute" is the name of an instrument family, caracterized by being all "edge-blown aerophones", so it can encompass all instruments defined as flutes. All flutes have in common to be "edge-blown aerophones", and every "edge-blown aerophone" is by definition a member of the flutes family. The matching article in what concern kemenches would be "bowed string instrument", in which every bowed string instrument could fit, including both kemençes. A Black Sea kemenche is in some aspect more similar to the Western violin than to the Classical Kemenche, which in turn is quite the same as byzantine or Cretan Lyra ; apart of the name, the 2 kemençes have no feature which unite them, since each of them is more akin to other instruments not called "kemenche" ; this is not the case for flutes, which all share something that makes them different from the other instruments.--Phso2 (talk) 18:24, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
the Pinksterboer reference seems to be more "cello oriented" than a study on Anatolian instruments. This homonymy led also the american-turkish website you provided to present both kemençe in one article (with a photo of a pontic kemenche), and again the classical kemeçe in another article, by the way (probably because they are not so familiar with these uncommon - i.e. non pan-turkish - instruments). — Preceding unsigned comment added by Phso2 (talkcontribs) 18:44, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Turkic origins of Kemenche, and UdEdit

According to Researcher, writer Mehmet Bilgin's researchers in the "Eastern Blacksea Ethnic history" named book, "Kemenche" instrument belongs to Cuman / Kipchak Turks, and also Gagaus Turks have given "Cumancha(Kemenche)" name to the instrument, and they've called folk dance of Kemeche as Horon. There was a Turkic "Cuman" leader(Khan) named "Kemenche Khan" who has migrated to Hungary with his tribes while Mongols invading Europe together with them. [1][2]

Ud: Ancient Byzantine Greek instrument which created as copy of "Saz" that belongs to Turkic Oghuz "Bechenegs", also Persians have stolen "Dombra" ancient Hunnic instrument from Turkic Kazakh people.. and they created "Tumbra" .

Turkic origins of Kemenche, and UdEdit

According to Researcher, writer Mehmet Bilgin's researchers in the "Eastern Blacksea Ethnic history" named book, "Kemenche" instrument belongs to Cuman / Kipchak Turks, and also Gagaus Turks have given "Cumancha(Kemenche)" name to the instrument, and they've called folk dance of Kemeche as Horon. There was a Turkic "Cuman" leader(Khan) named "Kemenche Khan" who has migrated to Hungary with his tribes while Mongols invading Europe together with them. [1][2]

Ud: Ancient Byzantine Greek instrument which created as copy of "Saz" that belongs to Turkic Oghuz "Bechenegs", also Persians have stolen "Dombra" ancient Hunnic instrument from Turkic Kazakh people.. and they created "Tumbra" . — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sonici (talkcontribs) 16:17, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

I have no idea what this book is, but a Google books search turns up a large number of sources that call it Persian,)eg [1] and I found none that called it Turkish. This seems to be a fairly good clue that we shouldn't be calling this a Turkish instrument. Dougweller (talk) 20:55, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

2 Kemenche PageEdit

Is there people really seeking a word for Kemenche as "Black Sea Kemenche" or is it better to explain that the Kemenche is is played in the regions, also with other names. See Kemençe of the Black Sea. Thanks Manaviko (talk) 07:37, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I'll start a merge discussion, as I agree it should be part of this article. Doug Weller (talk) 10:49, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
User:Manaviko, please comment at Talk:Kemençe of the Black Sea which is where the merge discussion is now located. Thanks. Doug Weller (talk) 10:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

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