Talk:Ignjat Job

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Ethnicity

Job's ethnic identity is an important piece of information. It needs to be mentioned if there is a reliable, academic source that verifies it. The source should state clearly that Ignjat Job identified as a Serb or a Croat. The place to mention it is the paragraph that deals with his family. A single sentence should suffice. Surtsicna (talk) 21:05, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

I do not know how to interpret this. Yugoslav is not Job's "previous nationality". He was a national of Yugoslavia nearly all his adult life, from the age of 23 until his death. He also produced some of his best known work in Kruševac and Supetar, so "Yugoslav" is more precise and more informative than "from Dubrovnik". But hey, we could fare a lot worse. In cases like this we often do. Surtsicna (talk) 21:22, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

1) Not all of his years (from the foundation of Yugoslavia) were spent in the country. 2) It's not like there are quotes of people saying hey I'm of this ethnicity. 2.1) There is literature saying that he is a Serbian painter, that is part of Serbian art history. Some of them are in the article, plus - https://www.delfi.rs/knjige/131580_istorija_srpske_umetnosti_xviii-xxi_vek_knjiga_delfi_knjizare.html I can see that you did not even consider top copy those refs somewhere withing the article, but just deleted them. I agree that we could fare a lot worse. 3) In some of the refs I restored there is a literature used which suggests that Job and his brother considered themselves to be Serbs and were a part of the Serb-Catholic movement. This is very notable for his bio. 4) Dubrovnik is relevant in the lead because of the unique identity, which is related to Job's family. 5) I never saw you insisting the Yugoslav identity of people who are not of Serbian origin, for example Tin Ujević, Antun Branko Šimić, Miroslav Krleža. I find that to be interesting. Mm.srb (talk) 21:50, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

1) Not all of his years had to be spent in Yugoslavia for him to be a Yugoslav painter. It is indisputable, however, that he did spend a vast majority of his career in Yugoslavia.
2) There often are quotes of people stating their ethnic identity. And when there are not any, or indeed any direct statements about the subject's ethnicity, one ought to wonder whether the subject had a pronounced sense of ethnic identity and whether his or her ethnic identity is relevant enough to be mentioned in a general biography (see WP:PROPORTION).
3) "Suggests" is not good enough to state something unequivocally. If a source says that Ignjat Job's brother fought for Serbia, what we can say is that Ignjat Job's brother fought for Serbia; Ignjat Job's brother fighting for Serbia does not translate to Ignjat Job being a Serb. Also, Serbian literature calling someone a Serbian painter is hardly proof that the person was a Serb. You might be shocked to find out that in Croatian literature, he is defined as a Croatian painter.[1][2] That does not entitle us to state that he was a Croat either.
4) Dubrovnik may be relevant to the lead section but it does not define Job, i.e. it is not relevant enough for the lead sentence. The article is about Ignjat Job, not his family. If Job is to be defined by any town, surely it should be Supetar. To do so, however, would be to degrade his national importance to a local level.
5) You are not looking very hard. Or rather, you see what you want to see, shadows and conspiracies. Would it soothe you if I provided you with some examples of my changing "Croatian" to "Yugoslav"? Would it make you happier and less inclined to see me as a de-serbifying Croat foe? Besides, you have not yet demonstrated that Job identified as a Serb. Who knows, perhaps you are witnessing me insisting on the Yugoslav identity of a non-Serb right now :) Surtsicna (talk) 23:10, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

He was a Catholic Serb, check here please: Cvijeto Job, Yugoslavia's Ruin: The Bloody Lessons of Nationalism, a Patriot's Warning, Rowman & Littlefield, 2002, ISBN 0742517845, pp. 4-5. Jingiby (talk) 05:40, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

I dare say that this is a very reliable source (and we should probably have an article about Cvijeto Job the younger). I do not see, however, a single sentence in that book stating that Ignjat Job identified as a Serb. What I see clearly stated there is that Ignjat Job's grandfather was Italian; that his father and uncles identified as "Roman Catholic Serbs"; that a brother identified first as a Serb, then as a Croat, and finally as a Tanganyikan; and that a nephew (the author) identifies as a Croat. Nothing about Ignjat Job's own ethnic identity. And the point the author is obviously making is that the family had an exceptionally fluid ethnic identity, and the "bloody lesson of nationalism" to be applied here is not to delve on Job's ethnicity. He was a celebrated painter; that is what editors should focus on. Surtsicna (talk) 10:51, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

1)I was not very active due to RL work which you used to push your POV. As a matter of fact, this is a textbook example of pushing POV. I can conclude that WP:NOTHERE is taking place. 2) You are failing to realize the issue with adding Yugoslav to people. It does not mean just one thing (citizenship, let's say) - but several, including ethnicity, and it can be very misleading. It is especially tricky for people who are of mixed origins, living in several countries, having first cousing which declare themselves differently. Those are all fact which should be taking in consideration. 3) There are not many quotes of that kind (Dubrovnik!). In fact we have zero in Job's case. 4) The fact that Croatian sources claim Job and pretty much every Roman Catholic from the Balkans to be Croatian is nothing new. Just google the propagandistic work which claims every Catholic from the Bay of Kotor to be a Croat, they even came up with a fancy title for it. I will not comment further about it. 4.1) That does not and will not excuse you deleting the sources which state that Job is a notable Serbian painter, which of relevance for the legacy section. If you had a problem with the formulation, you should have written about it here. Once again - WP:NOTHERE. 5) Dubrovnik is not about defining the man by the town. It is about the place of his roots and the old unique local identity (Slavicized Italians). Supetar is indeed relevant, but so are Brač and Kruševac, so... 5.1)We can simply put - was a painter. That formulation is way more accurate than Yugoslav, which is far-fetched. 6) I do not think that you are a serbophobic foe. The way you talk about yourself is a nice example of mild narcissism. To be accurate, I in fact do suspect shadows about your edits such as this one because: 1) you have a history of edit warring 2) you have been banned several times 3) you have been recently reported for edit warring and vandalising other pages 4) you have the habit of deleting other editor's sources and work as you please 5) you are pushing your POV and not cooperating. 6) your attitude is arrogant and self-important, acting like you are above other editors. 7) My guess is that you are from ex Yugoslavia, having pro-Yugoslav views, living abroad and that you think that you are doing some great work of destroying evil Serbian or Croatian nationalistic editors and while doing so failing on several levels and causing issues at the same time. That is what I think, since you started to input some words on my part, which is neither smart nor polite and I can not say that I appreciate it. I posted links to bios like Tin Ujević just to see what you think about it... 7.1) Jingby gave you a solid source, which you sort of ignored and decided not to use it in any way. I think that is a good way to keep the status quo and the idea of Job as Yugoslav. 7.2) I understand that a number of people should be called Yugoslav in the intro, the same way a number of people are Prussian. BUT we should not just easily put it as we please but view and analyze every bio as a case of its own. Mm.srb (talk) 12:30, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

1) WP:NOTHERE accusation is a bit rich coming from someone whose sole purpose (literally sole purpose!) on Wikipedia is establishing the Serbdom of everyone and their momma. 2) That is nonsense. A person from Yugoslavia is absolutely correctly and commonly defined as a Yugoslav person. If you disagree, take it to a broader discussion. I have no idea how someone having cousins who live in different countries is relevant to Ignjat Job. 3) I do not know what you are talking about. 4) Yes, and it is also nothing new that Serbian sources claim Job and pretty much every Slav, regardless of religion, as Serbs. So how is that different from the Croatian nationalist historiography? Ah, yes - the Serbian one must be correct. 4.1) Yes, that does excuse my removal of a blatantly biased claim. Shall we have another sentence next to it saying that he is a notable Croatian painter? You have acknowledged that as many sources can be found for that. How ridiculous do you want this article to sound? 6.1) No, it is not "way more accurate" than defining him as a Yugoslav painter, nor is it in any way "far-fetched" that a painter from Yugoslavia was a Yugoslav painter. The denial of that is incomprehensible to a sound mind. Again, if you wish to push this mental gymnastics, please do it in a larger forum. 6) That is despicable. I suggest that you read Wikipedia:Comment on content, not on the contributor. 7) Irrelevant and likewise despicable. Again, acquaint yourself with Wikipedia:Comment on content, not on the contributor. 7.1) I obviously did not ignore it. I commented on it and dismissed it as evidence that Ignjat Job was a Serb. 7.2) A painter from Yugoslavia is a Yugoslav painter, much like a politician from Serbia is a Serbian politician (e.g. Rasim Ljajić, Sulejman Ugljanin, etc). If you wish to dispute that, please start a broader discussion. Surtsicna (talk) 02:14, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

I am not sure how it is relevant to Ignjat's identification, that his family adopted a Croat identity after the WWII. I think based on available information, he was a Catholic Serb, and this identification was based on the popular in his family at the turn of the 20th century Yugoslavism and Serbo-Catholic idea. Jingiby (talk) 06:18, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

And how is it relevant to Ignjat Job's identification that his uncles and father (whom he hardly knew) identified as Catholic Serbs? How can you argue that their identity is relevant to Job's but his brother's identity is not? And no, the source you cited does not in any way suggest that Ignjat Job identified as a Serb, let alone state so directly. Surtsicna (talk) 10:40, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

1) Wild accusations bordering with paranoid which is more on the line of daily politics and not Wiki editng... I like to contribute to articles related to the nation of my birth, but saying that is my sole purpose is just sadly mistaken. And it is coming from an editor who likes to call out other for not showing good faith. Talk about hypocrisy... 2) Stating that Serbian sources claim every SLav on the Balkans is a nice example of your serbophobia. I was talking about a specific situation and not the broader picture. 3) So you are the sole person who gets to decide wich claims are blatantly biased? No, you do not and you will not. 4) I am commenting on the contributor because the contributor in question is freely talking about my views as if he knows anything about them. That is just the defensive mechanism to that sort of agression, which, as I can see that you speak Serbo-Croatian, is on the point. I have seen the sort of cases in both RL and on Wiki, nothing new here. I guess it is a BiH expat story. 5) We could and we should. I will add that part. 6) You commented on it and dismissed it? This is not Judge Judy. 7) Serb-Catholics WERE NOT primarily a Yugoslav organization but pan-Serbian, YU came second at the best. Read about it, try to be constructive with other editors and do not push your POV. 8) I just googled 8.1) Job also lived in another country, how is Yugoslavia more relevant for the lead? 8.2) A number of hits on search engines for Yugoslav painter Ignjat Job is laughable. Mm.srb (talk) 12:07, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

Here is a source (page 3) which states that Job was a Serb. The author is an expert on Job's painting and life and a member of the team leading The National Museum of Serbia. Well, I guess she is biased too, evil anti-Yu nationalistic sole purpose driven writer. :) Mm.srb (talk) 12:10, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

1) Yes, it is indeed sad that you are making wild, paranoid accusations against me. 2) You stated that Croatian sources "claim Job and pretty much every Roman Catholic from the Balkans to be Croatian". By your logic, that is a nice example of your Croatophobia. 3) I still have no idea what you are talking about. 4) Continue with these speculations about my private life and attempts to out me and you will be reported. Try me. Trust me that I will not hesitate. 5) The single reference that confirms the entire sentence suffices. We do not need four. See WP:Citation overkill. 6) You obviously do not know how discussions on Wikipedia work. That is okay, you are new, but make an attempt to learn. 7) What are you on about? The source says: "They pronounced themselves 'Roman Catholic Serbs' of Dubrovnik, which meant pro-Yugoslav (i.e., anti-Austrian)." 8) When did he live abroad? Could it be that you are referring to the couple of months of travelling through Italy? Yugoslavia is obviously relevant because he was a national of Yugoslavia who spent his career in Yugoslavia. 8.2) A number of hits on search engines is a laughable attempt to prove something. 9) No, she is not biased or evil. That source is all I asked for: academic and direct. Surtsicna (talk) 12:47, 22 July 2019 (UTC)

References