Talk:Hi-Tek incident

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by SL93 (talk) 00:21, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that attendance at the largest anti-communist protest that ever took place in Little Saigon went as high as 15,000? Source: "Instead, his act of defiance sparked a protest that drew as many as 15,000 people and 200 police in riot gear who made 52 arrests over seven weeks." (LA Times, "Past and Present") "Friday's rally drew about 15,000 people -- the largest yet during the controversy -- in a show of unity organized by more than 25 Vietnamese student and religious groups." (Ha 2002, pg. 50)
  • ALT1:... that after 52 days of protests, the Hi-Tek incident ended after evidence of video piracy surfaced? Source: "Lewis said detectives found an elaborate video counterfeiting operation inside Tran’s store during the protests... Tran’s attorneys say he will not return to the store, acknowledging he would be unable to reopen his business." (LA Times, "Past and Present")

• Reviewed: This is my seventh nom (one is a rescued nom, however), so here are my sex previous reviews (seventh to be done soon):

• Template:Did you know nominations/Riot Games
• Template:Did you know nominations/IRT Powerhouse
• Template:Did you know nominations/Barrackpore Trunk Road
• Template:Did you know nominations/Don't Touch That Dial
• Template:Did you know nominations/Fordson Island
• Template:Did you know nominations/South Africa women's cricket team in England in 2018

Moved to mainspace by MSG17 (talk). Self-nominated at 18:55, 9 September 2021 (UTC).

• This interesting article is new enough and long enough. The hook facts are cited inline and I prefer ALT1, the article is neutral, and I detected no copyright issues. A QPQ has been done. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:54, 10 September 2021 (UTC)

• Some more hook ideas from User:DHN, the user who wrote the original Vietnamese article:

ALT2: ... that in 1999, hundreds to tens of thousands of people protested for 53 days against the flag of Vietnam and a portait of Ho Chi Minh in Little Saigon?

ALT3: ... that a 53-day protest in Little Saigon prompted many Vietnamese Americans to enter politics? (Source: O. C. Register)

• MSG17 (talk) 00:20, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• @Cwmhiraeth:, any thoughts? I'd rather promote ALT3, if you'll promote it. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (they/them) 06:27, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Approving ALT2, but not ALT3 which is not really backed up by the article. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 08:12, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• @Cwmhiraeth: From the article: "For others, however, the Hi-Tek protests became a springboard. “The Hi-Tek incident made the community realize it needed a true political voice at the table,” a lawyer who served as intermediary during the protests would later say. The lawyer’s name was Van Tran. And he would lead a new generation of politicians about to rise in Little Saigon...Since the Hi-Tek protests, Little Saigon has elected, or helped elect, 11 Vietnamese American city council members, two county supervisors, one assemblyman and one state senator." DHN (talk) 08:48, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• @DHN: I don't see the passages you quote, or these facts, in the article. I do see them in this source, but that is not sufficient for hook facts at DYK. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 09:22, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• @Cwmhiraeth: I misread "article" as referring to the OC Register article. If you're referring to the Hi-Tek incident article itself, there's this sentence at the end: " This event served as a catalyst in increasing the civic participation of Vietnamese Americans, with several running for a number of public offices." This is also mentioned in the beginning of the article (with no citation): "The event was later regarded as an important turning point as a rare occurrence of solidarity in a previously divided community and a driving force for many Vietnamese Americans to later participate in politics and become more involved in civic matters." DHN (talk) 09:39, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• @DHN: If you cite that in the lead, I can approve ALT3. Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:01, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

• Erm... the information is already cited in the body. Per WP:LEADCITE, the citation shouldn't need to be repeated in the lead. Maybe I should modify the body passage to better reflect this fact? MSG17 (talk) 19:05, 11 September 2021 (UTC)

Note: Six QPQs were not needed for this nomination – I've struck the use of five, and left a note on the nominator's talk page. theleekycauldron (talk • contribs) (she/her) 06:43, 10 January 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Hi-Tek incident/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: GhostRiver (talk · contribs) 16:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

I will be reviewing this! — GhostRiver 16:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks! Feel free to share any other advice that you have. I hope this can become a FA in due time. MSG17 (talk) 16:26, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

Infobox and lede

• Comma needed after the Vietnamese definition
• "A climax was reached" → "The conflict reached its climax" for active voice
• WL video piracy
• an important turning point in what? Maybe Vietnamese American history?
• Reading through the body, it's not immediately clear what this growing generation rift is, as the youth participation speaks more to generational solidarity, and the rift came later
  • Done. I think I am going to do more research on the generation gap in the community (it looks like it might have played a role in intra-community tensions before Hi-Tek). MSG17 (talk) 00:39, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Background

• "Communist" is inconsistently capitalized throughout the first paragraph; it's lowercase until the sentence beginning "These tensions burst into violence"
• "but protests became common in the 1990s as Vietnamese American communities became more established in the United States to fight any form of influence" → "but in the 1990s, as Vietnamese American communities became more established in the United States, protests became common to fight any form of influence"
• "In 1989 he left the group," → "He left the group in 1989"
• "later, in 1999," → "ten years later,"
• "with his observation of improving living conditions there causing" → "where his observations of improved living conditions there caused"
• "hot debate in the Vietnamese American community" (I presume)
  • Done. Going with lowercase c for "communist", since it's used in most of the article. MSG17 (talk) 00:39, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Events

• Comma after "January 17, 1999" per MOS:DATECOMMA
• I don't believe "center" needs to be in quotes, as it's a general term with no obvious paraphrased alternative
• "and he had to go to the hospital" → "and he was hospitalized"
• "and talking about" → "and sharing"
• No comma needed after "sued for the removal of the display"
• "the police escorted him" → "the police escorted Trường"
• Once again WL video piracy for the first instance in the body
• "biggest rally so far" → "largest rally to date"
• "raided Hi-Tek Video and seized thousands of tapes and hundreds of VCRs in addition to looking for evidence of a break-in" → "raided Hi-Tek Video, seizing thousands of tapes and hundreds of VCRs while looking for evidence of a break-in"
  • Done. Changed biggest rally so far to largest rally held during the protests because I don't know about other protests and their sizes that were held in the area or among the Viet-Am community. MSG17 (talk) 19:17, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

    @MSG17: This source from 2014 asserts that it's the largest ever in Vietnamese-American history. DHN (talk) 20:29, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Thanks. I'll check it out, looks like it has some other information and perspectives. MSG17 (talk) 00:39, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Reactions

• ""everyone does the same thing."" → ""everyone does the same thing"." per MOS:LQ
• Remove spaces between ellipses in the quotes per MOS:ELLIPSIS
• "leading to most supporting" → "and most supported"
• "such as first-time protestors and people with a more "moderate" stance that still wanted to do business with Vietnam as well as the aforementioned youth." → "in addition to the aforementioned youth, first-time protestors and those with a more "moderate" stance that still wanted to do business with Vietnam were in attendance."
• "Another effect was that different groups in the community felt more united;" → "The diversity of protestors led to an increased sense of unity among different groups in the community"
• Is "mainstream society" your quote or someone else's?
  • It is quoted from Ha (2002, p. 44).
• Vietnamese-American has a hyphen in the third para; everywhere else used a space
• "were particularly disapproving" → "particularly disapproved"
• "deciding against him using the "public nuisance" argument" → "using the "public nuisance" argument against him"
• "and suspected his motives" → "and was suspicious of his motives"
• Comma after "The costs of the protests were another factor"
• "led to the police force being particularly criticized" → "led to heavy criticism of the local police force"
• Rather than a semicolon, start a new sentence at "all of this", as the current sentence is three lines long and contains lots of thoughts
• "with the Washington D.C. Embassy" → "with the embassy in Washington, D.C."
  • Responded. For the fourth point, I changed it to including the aforementioned youth, first-time protestors and those with a more "moderate" stance that still wanted to do business with Vietnam. Also did some more minor prose modifications. MSG17 (talk) 16:33, 20 October 2021 (UTC)

Aftermath and long-term developments

• "he gave up" → "he ultimately relented"
• "after attempting to organize a "press conference" to oppose a resolution passed by the city of Garden Grove that ended" → "after the "press conference" that he had attempted to organize in opposition of a resolution passed by the city of Garden Grove ended"
• Mention the year that this press conference occurred, as the next sentence starts with "the next year"
  • Done. Also added what the resolution was about and changed the sentence structure a bit to make it easier to follow and less of a mouthful. MSG17 (talk) 00:36, 14 October 2021 (UTC)

References

• Change "SPECIAL REPORT" in the LA Times ref to "Special Report" per MOS:ALLCAPS
  • Done MSG17 (talk) 19:15, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

General comments

• All images are relevant and are properly licensed
• Per MOS:CAPTION, periods should be removed from the two captions that have them, as the caps are not full sentences
• No stability concerns in the revision history
• Earwig score is a little high, but that's because of a reference name and an attributed direct quote

I can certainly say that I learned a lot reading this! Most of my comments relate to sharpening of prose and use of tense, so might be worth looking over the article again generally to see other areas where you find room for improvement, especially if you plan to take this to FAC. In the meantime, putting on hold. — GhostRiver 16:57, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

Alright, sorry for the wait. Everything looks good now, marking as a pass! — GhostRiver 01:45, 25 October 2021 (UTC)

"Attacked with an egg"?

"Trường was attacked with an egg on March 1." This phrase sounds absurd. Was the egg thrown at him? 2A00:23C5:FE18:2700:BCF2:F7D2:2FEE:C8CF (talk) 18:24, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

@2A00:23C5:FE18:2700:BCF2:F7D2:2FEE:C8CF: The original phrase "Ông bị những người biểu tình ném trứng vào mặt." literally means "The protesters threw egg(s) in his face." I'm not sure if it was an egg or more than one. There is no quantifier. NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 07:28, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

From the source (Willon & Sheppard): "Tran is pelted in the face with an egg as he tries to return to his store, then is dragged away by police for his own protection." DHN (talk) 07:50, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Use of naming order and how to refer to people

@MSG17:

Thanks for starting this article! It's a very interesting subject!

Anyway I recall at Talk:Thuy Trang (the Power Rangers actress) I argued that while she was of Vietnamese ancestry, not only did formal publications refer to her by her family name, Trang, she built her career in the US and essentially lived there for the rest of her life. The decision there was to refer to her as Trang, in the American custom.

I think similarly, as this article concerns people living in the United States and not in Vietnam, and that the formal mainstream English language media more or less refers to people by their family names, I think the key figure should be referred to as "Truong Van Tran" and as "Tran". If he was naturalized as a U.S. citizen, IMO the case would be stronger to refer to him as "Tran". WhisperToMe (talk) 09:22, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@WhisperToMe: Hi, AFAIK, Trang is Thuỳ Trang's first name, not family name. She should (also) be referred to as Thuỳ Trang or Trang according to Vietnamese custom. NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 13:12, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh: Articles in U.S. press seem to treat Trang as her family name. For example in this biographical newspaper article she is referred to as "Trang", and in this article an actor refers to her in a personal manner as "Thuy", suggesting it's her given name ("“I remember Thuy was always getting hurt on set,” says Frank, 45" and "Thuy’s voicemail a few times after") while the same article states "Trang joined the Power Rangers cast after they shot the pilot". If Trang was her given name, Jason David Frank and David Yost, respectively, would have called her "Trang" and the articles would have clarified this. WhisperToMe (talk) 16:10, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@WhisperToMe: To me, a native Vietnamese, Thuỳ seems to be her middle name rather than family name. Thuỳ Trang is a relatively popular name for girls, but I have never heard of any one whose family name is Thuỳ. It can be that she doesn't have a (Vietnamese) family name, or she just didn't reveal it. Our article Thuy Trang (and the sources cited) says nothing else about her name. The author was probably unfamiliar with Vietnamese names. Can't blame them, see also this property proposal on Wikidata. NguoiDungKhongDinhDanh 16:25, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

It could be possible that "Thuy Trang" is a stage name and she had some other Vietnamese family name, but to my knowledge none was revealed in the press. I don't know if she has any further name revealed on any memorial sites. AFAIK the best we can do is use American conventions with that article.

In regards to this article, I'm in favor of using U.S. naming conventions (given name then family name, and referring to people by family name) in the English Wikipedia as the persons involved live in the United States, and possibly are U.S. citizens.

WhisperToMe (talk) 18:03, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

@WhisperToMe: It's true that most English-language sources refer to this person using the Anglicized version. However, I think there are several nuances that warrant a closer look in this case. First, the person's notoriety/fame is largely in a Vietnamese-language context instead of an English-language context. Second, after the incident, he moved back to Vietnam for a period of time, so it's not clear that he prefers the English version of his name. P.S. This reminds me of the initial discussions on Seung-Hui Cho, when the media wanted to highlight his foreignness by using the Korean order when the person himself used the Western order. DHN (talk) 18:23, 31 January 2022 (UTC)

Interesting discussion. As far as I am aware, Wikipedia is also a bit unique in that it preserves diacritics that are often stripped in English. (Honestly, it's kinda absurd how much diacritics are ripped out - D and Đ are completely different letters, come on! But, I digress.) Nevertheless, it could be that he used the "Westernized" version of his name in English. But I also suspect that the media may simply have not been so sensitive to the issue or read his name from a form or ID card and applied Western order to it without understanding. MSG17 (talk) 02:09, 19 February 2022 (UTC)