Talk:Hélio Gracie

PoV

More Gracie worship. This article needs to be rewritten. Adding NPOV tag until some major edits can be made. --Malathion 01:17, 23 May 2005 (UTC)

Coming from a member of the martial arts community, I must say that this is nothing close to Gracie worship. Go look at Bruce Lee's page if you want to see worship. --Aika 21:12, May 23, 2005 (UTC)

Changing tag to a cleanup tag.. we need the article to be in better shape before we can start picking apart at piss ant details.. because if we pick it to the bone now, we will be left with an article that fits your anti-gracie POV agenda, but a poorly written article still. --Aika 02:19, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

What are you talking about with "anti-Gracie POV agenda"? --Malathion 06:03, 27 May 2005 (UTC)

hehe, I was just being facitious since you have done edits about Pat Miletich and he has had a running feud with the Gracies regarding a contest between Militech Fighting systems and Gracie Jiu Jitsu, claming that Miletich is the evolution of the MMA game and BJJ is just part of a greater picture now. Bad humor and my fault for not elaborating :) Cheers friend.. lets try to get this article looking better--Aika 22:45, May 28, 2005 (UTC)

I don't know what you're talking about with any of those edits. I don't recall editing any Pat Miletich articles. To be honest I'm a semi-serious BJJ student for about 3 years now, but I am cognizant of the fact that BJJ and Gracie fanboyism is something we need to combat, in ourselves as well as others. BJJ is not the be-all and end-all of martial arts. --Malathion 22:53, 6 Jun 2005 (UTC)

This article was stolen

I can't believe no one has noticed that this article was taken wholesale from the gracie academy website: http://www.gracieacademy.com/generations/helio.shtml. What a disgrace to the Wikipedia community.

• If you are going to discredit Wikipedia, at least have the courage to sign your post. RedWolf 08:01, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

• well if Mr Unknown is correct, this article needs to be removed and rewritten. I assume RedWolf has done this Boils (talk) 06:09, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Rewrite

I rewrote this article on it's temp page, it should be cleared of the copyright issues. Rx StrangeLove 19:56, 1 September 2005 (UTC)

• Temp page has replaced the main article. RedWolf 08:01, September 4, 2005 (UTC)

"Submitted"

Maybe it's some sort of technical term, but is "He submitted John Doe" a correct usage? Shouldn't it be "He subdued" or "He subjugated" or maybe just "He defeated"? — flamingspinach | (talk) 20:07, 4 November 2005 (UTC)

submitted means the other person tapped out signaling that he quit. i'm not sure but the term tapping out may also apply when somebody is caught on a choke and while not tapping goes unconscious and a fight is called. uri budnik 06:37, 5 November 2005 (UTC)

Okay, but if person B surrendered, would you say "Person B submitted" or perhaps "Person B submitted to Person A"? Or would you say "Person A submitted Person B"? I'd personally think one of the former makes more sense but I don't know how it is colloquially used. — flamingspinach | (talk) 02:35, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

your 3rd usage is the one popularly used. for example royce gracie submitted dan severn in a triangle choke hold. this (together with many variations thereof) is widely used phrasing in [mma] circles. uri budnik 06:19, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

• Technically speaking, you're talking about transitive and intransitive verbs. I agree it's common enough in MMA circles and it's just plain quicker than 'made X submit'. Mglovesfun 18:11, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

NPOV

The section "Beginnings of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu" contains a few lines that are obviously opinion, and praise, rather than fact; lines such as "a certain auspicious encounter would spark the creation of the greatest fighting system in the world." This is certainly not neutral, nor is the line "Herein lay the creation of the foremost fighting system yet to be seen" near the end of the paragraph. This needs to be fixed.

Fights

1932: Submitted Karate Sensi

Are you sure "Karate Sensi" is a name? --zeno 15:53, 12 February 2006 (UTC)

Dr. Mario?

Was there really some clown named Dr. Mario or is this a joke?

In an English Wikipedia article he should probably be referred to by his last name; but in Brazil it is common to call people by their first name, even in a formal situation, such as "Dr. Mario". --Cotoco 22:14, 30 May 2006 (UTC)

(If anyone's not aware, Dr. Mario is also the name of a video game.) Shawnc 14:28, 4 July 2006 (UTC)

The é in Hélio

I have never seen Helio spelled with an accent mark over the e anywhere outside of Wikipedia. It not spelled with the accent in the The Gracie Way or the Gracie Academy website or anywhere else that I've ever looked. Just look at the newspaper about his fight with Kimura:

It doesn't even have an accent mark when "Vitória" does. If no one objects, I'm removing the é and moving the article back to Helio Gracie. --Aesopian 15:21, 14 July 2006 (UTC)

Well, you could not tell what is the right spelling just by the above newspaper, I think it's too soon to move to Helio Gracie (by the way you would need administration rights to make that move). Hélio is correctly spelled with the "é" punctuated. However, proper names in brazilian portuguese can be registered with spelling errors if the scribber did not paid attention to the mistake or if he let the mistake. It's also common to spell names that have a latin root with or without accents: Julio = Júlio, Vinicius = Vinícius althought the correct spelling is with the ´ placed. So you'll have to take a look at his birth certificate or ID, or else it will always be speculation, and the article being Helio of Hélio will not matter. I would stick to the correct portuguese spelling unless undeniable evidence that it is indeed spelled as Hélio surfaces. See List of Portuguese given names. For a small list of places where Hélio is written witht é follow the links: [1], [2], [3], [4], [5]. Almost all brazillian pages spell it as Hélio, and the majority of english pages spell it as Helio, simply because they are unaware of the accent mark. Regards. Loudenvier 19:10, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Famous belt

The caption for the picture says "Helio Gracie wearing his famous belt" but no where in the article does it explain why that belt is famous. Perhaps someone could add an explanation. --Nechevo 03:39, 29 October 2006 (UTC)

Longest match

Hélio holds the world record for longest match, a feat achieved when he spent 3 hours 40 minutes fighting his former student Valdemar Santana (also known as Adema Santa), losing by knockout from a knee to the head.

I think it should say something line "Together with Valdemar Sanata, Hélio holds [...]" not only he wasn't alone, he also lost!. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 141.76.120.123 (talk) 19:03, 10 February 2007 (UTC).

Victoria de Helios

Isn't that Latin for "Victory of Helios?" How are you guys interpreting this as victory for the other guy? mpa 10:53am (EST) 7/18/2007.

Because the headline says 'Moralemente' Victory for Helios. That is clearly a biased headline though along with a lot in this article. Boils (talk) 06:07, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Opening sentence and the rest of the POV

As those who know know, the credit for creating BJJ has be muddied by many and most by the Gracie Family themselves. Helio is part of the claim but just looking at the facts he seems to have a lesser part than his older brother who actually taught Helio. Carlos also opened the Academy (Helio was 12 at the time) and received tuition from Maeda directly. Carlson naturally credits his father Carlos with being the true founder (as does the BTT) as does anyone except the Helio side of the Gracie family. I think we have to look at editing the opening lines to be more in line with history and not wishory. Boils (talk) 06:43, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

How many sons does he have?

Like How Many? Did he ever manage to have a daughter? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.170.235.207 (talk) 23:13, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

"Gracie is survived by his wife Vera; his sons Rickson, Royler, Rolker, Royce, Relson, Robin and Rorion; his daughters Rerika and Ricci, as well as numerous siblings, nieces, nephews, and grandchildren.". Will add it to the article. --aktsu ^(t / c) 00:25, 30 January 2009 (UTC)

the above source misspelled Rherika

"Gracie Family Tree" from official source (Gracie Academy in Torrance). "Rorion", "Relson", "Rickson", Rolker, "Royler", "Royce", Rherika (misspelled on the other source), "Robin", Ricci. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 200.144.210.170 (talk) 13:33, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Gracie family, Helio picture

Please upload a photo for wikipedia. Many of us MMA fans could just upload one of the thousands of googled images, but we wouldn't own the rights to the photo.

Please upload one of your own photos.

Improvements and search for a NPOV article

Hi all, this article is in desperate need of attention. It contains many POV statements or statements based on primary-sources which are not reliable (Hélio himself talking about his fights, Rickison talking about never losing a fight, etc.). I've put some indicators on the bigger problems I saw, but overall the article is very, very unbalanced and unreliable. For example, despite Maeda teaching them Judo, at that time everyone in Brazil only knew the name Jiu-Jitsu. When the Gracies arrived in Rio and opened their academy, after only 2 years learning under Maeda (Carlos), they opened the Gracie Jiu-Jitsu academy, they already were calling it Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. The story of the late Carlos is well backed up, but it was already Gracie Jiu-Jitsu they were teaching. Hélio was very influential, mainly as the front-man of the family and that is why he is considered as a founder of GJJ, but together with Carlos, which was even more fundamental than Hélio. Until Carlos death, Hélio and Carlos shared equal credits for the art, only after Carlos death, Hélio side of the family weighted his contribution above Carlos, shadowing Carlos influence. That's the problem with primary sources. I have good sources to clean-up this part of the article, I just don't have the time right now. That's why I only tagged with ... Help is very welcome! Let's make this article worth of the man behind it, who do not need any artificial grandeur attached to his image, as he is already "the perfect master". Loudenvier (talk) 17:39, 21 May 2009 (UTC)

Early life biography question

In his biography, the first line says that Helio got a chance to teach Judo. Where did he learn it? Does anyone know from who, when or where? It just seems to jump into his martial arts career, and it seems like it would be important to know. 99.23.105.140 (talk) 22:53, 9 July 2009 (UTC)

Founder

The following statement: "together with his brother Carlos Gracie, founded the art of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, known internationally as Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ)," is misguiding. Carlos is the founder of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, which is simply the Brazilian style of Jiu-Jitsu as taught by Carlos Gracie to his brothers, including Hélio. Gracie Jiu-Jitsu on the other hand was founded by Helio as he trademarked that name and it refers specifically to his modified branch of Jiu-Jitsu. The above statement would lead one to believe that Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is simply the international name for Gracie Jiu-Jitsu, where as Gracie Jiu-Jitsu is Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, but not all Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Livingston 16:34, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

Judo rank

There is no reliable source that Helio would have had a 6th dan in judo, or even 3rd dan. Kimura does state that he was a 6th dan in judo but he was probably actually talking about 6th dan in gracie jiu-jitsu, since he did not know the difference. So unless we have a reliable source, we cannot say this in the article. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.112.63.32 (talk) 16:58, 24 February 2010 (UTC)

That 'Probably' is means that we should take the source at face value and explain the details. --Nate^t/_c 09:21, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I have added references to books by Kimura (1985) and Hill (2008). The first appears to be a book out of print, and the second is a more recent book with an ISBN (though note that not all search engines will locate it, as appears to be the case with several books with ISBNs). I am not commenting on the reliability of these sources, but simply noting that they are (or in the first case, reasonably appear to be) published sources. At the least, this merits their inclusion in the article, in my view. Janggeom (talk) 02:28, 6 April 2010 (UTC)

"the only living 10th degree master of that system"

The entry about Carlos Gracie states that he is a 10th dan too. What's up with that?Razionale (talk) 22:46, 15 November 2010 (UTC)

No one knows?Razionale (talk) 19:20, 23 November 2010 (UTC)

The biography by bjjheroes for Carlos Gracie (see [6]) calls him a 10th dan. I think we should change this unfortunate sentence we have.Razionale (talk) 21:48, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Done.--Razionale (talk) 16:22, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Usable sources?

I have trouble finding clearly reliable sources on Hélio Gracie and that's a true shame. Can this excerpt under the heading "Helio Gracie, part 2" from this source be used for our article? It was written by Luca Atalla from the Gracie Magazine.Razionale (talk) 22:43, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

Hello Razionale, it could be used but it would be far preferable to either obtain an original copy of the magazine or find a better on-line source (e.g., if the magazine itself has published the article on its own website), and check the information from there. Janggeom (talk) 13:31, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately they don't have or keep articles older than a year ago on their website. I found the article looking for information about the fight Hélio against Namiki, currently unsourced, and there was not much else outside of the fan community. Can you find a better article?Razionale (talk) 15:51, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

You are probably more familiar with the subject area than I am, but I will certainly add good sources if I happen to come across them. Janggeom (talk) 16:11, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Scottish Descent?

Would we not require a citation for that catagory to be included on the bottom of the page? 2.220.196.143 (talk) 22:32, 14 May 2011 (UTC)

'Personal life' section confusion

The Personal life section of the article states that:

"Gracie had been married to Margarida for fifty years. During their marriage, Gracie became the father of three sons (Rickson, Rorion, and Relson) with Isabel 'Belinha' Soares and four sons (Royler, Rolker, Royce, Robin), two daughters (Rerika and Ricci) with Vera.] After Margarida's demise, he married Vera who was 32 years younger than he was. Gracie was grandfather to many BJJ black belts, including Ryron, Rener, Ralek, Kron, and Rhalan."

How does it out-of-the-blue, suddenly switches from Margarida to "Isabel 'Belinha' Soares?" Is Margarida another nick-name for Isabel Soares, in addition to 'Belinha?' And then it simply goes back to Margarida (afer her demise), without any explanation whatsoever. How many wives did he really have, and what were their full names? Vera, who apparently mothered 6 of his children does not even have a full name in the article. The Brazilian version of this article is even worse than this one, and is not much help in trying to clarify the details. warshy^talk 15:46, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

Margarida was his first wife. Isabel "Belinha" Soares was Rolls' babysitter (given to Helio by his brother Carlos). As Helio found that Margarida could not conceive a child, he made an "agreement" and had Rorion with Isabel. (source: documentary "Gracies - Birth of Vale Tudo" , at approx. 15m00s). So he did not switch wife on and then back - he was still with Margarida while having a child with Isabel. Then later after Margarida left he married Vera. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 189.100.106.163 (talk) 20:52, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the details. The source is still not defined or rather spelled out enough for us to be able to make the text more clear and more explicit on all these personal life details. The article does not say that Margarida left, but instead refers to her demise. But the details are missing. Vera, who would have been his second wife, still does not have a full name. Thank you. warshy ^(¥¥) 14:37, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

As I suspected, the story of the extra-marital relations of the two brothers, relations which did indeed bear many of Helio's children, is still a little obscure. This new/recent journalistic source [[7]] states that Rolls was actually Carlos's son, born of his extra-marital relationship with the 18 year-old "Claudia" (again without any last name that could identify her positively for an encyclopedia), but given to Helio by Carlos so Helio could raise him. This was due to the fact, according to the journalistic source again, that at the time of Rolls's birth (1951), Helio and Margarida's marriage had not yeat produced any offspring. The article actually says that for many years at the beginning Helio and Margarida could not conceive children together, and that is why Rolls was given to Helio by Carlos, so he could raise him with Margarida as if he was Helio's own son. And that is how Rolls, who turned out to be also a very daring hang-gliding competitor, was indeed raised - by Helio and Margarida. According to the article again, Rolls died in 1982 of a hang-gliding accident, under extreme weather conditions from which less "daring" flyers simply shied away. warshy ^(¥¥) 16:38, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

Kimura block quote: Helio's height and weight, 5'9" and 150# or 5'11" and 176#?

I added the conversions for height and weight in the Kimura Wiki page and the Kimura block quote says Helio was 180 cm tall and 80 kg in weight. On the Helio Wiki page, the Kimura block quote says Helio was 175 cm tall and 68 kg in weight. That's a big difference, especially in the weight. Plus, neither entry gives a citation for the quote.

If anyone knows the source of the quote, please add the citation to both Wiki entries and put in the correct height and weight on both webpages.

Phantom in ca (talk) 18:46, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

External links modified

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Fight Record

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

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• Hélio Gracie.jpg

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No mention of Helio and his brothers assaulting Rufino Dos Santos?

As mentioned in the article covering his brother below:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carlos_Gracie

"The conflict then moved to the newspapers, where Rufino criticized Carlos's skill and dismissed his jiu-jitsu credentials, leading Carlos, George and Hélio to assault him in front of his teaching place at the Tijuca Tênis Clube on October 18. They hit him repeatedly with a steel box and immobilized him for Carlos to apply an armlock, dislocating Rufino's shoulder so badly that it needed surgery.[4][1] This time the brothers were arrested and were convicted to two years and a half in prison for assault, as well as for trying to run away during the arrest, but their connections to President of Brazil Getúlio Vargas granted them a pardon.[3]"

Not sure what section this should be added to, but it is surely something important enough to be mentioned?

41.13.250.147 (talk) 22:32, 29 May 2020 (UTC)

I have no objection to the introduction of the above content, as it seems credibly sourced on the Carlos Gracie page. Wikipedia should be neutral and should not only mention positive aspects of public figures if there are verified negative aspects of note that should also be mentioned. If it is verified enough to be on the Carlos Gracie page, then it should likewise be verified enough to be on the Helio Gracie page. BasicsOnly (talk) 01:24, 30 May 2020 (UTC)

I've made the edit and added the relevant information and referencing, however this is my first edit so there may be errors in terms of structuring and the like so someone more experienced may need to give it a once-over.

105.251.171.70 (talk) 11:25, 31 May 2020 (UTC)