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Talk:Guns don't kill people, people kill people

Latest comment: 4 months ago by Darknipples in topic History and usage section.
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Did you know nomination edit

Latest comment: 1 year ago10 comments5 people in discussion
The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by Z1720 (talk) 00:24, 8 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

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[[File:|140px|Variation of the original slogan ]]
Variation of the original slogan

Created by FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk). Self-nominated at 13:15, 8 July 2022 (UTC).Reply

  •   I have very very deep reservations about all the hooks proposed in this nomination. This slogan is the slogan of a well-known lobbyist group with a particular political slant, and presenting said slogan as a fact using Wikipedia's voice would not only be inaccurate, it would also fail DYK's neutrality requirement. A hook about the slogan is definitely possible, but the slogan itself being the hook is not permissible. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 00:25, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
  •   See User:Narutolovehinata5's comments above — while it's possible to have a hook ABOUT the slogan, the hook CANNOT simply be the slogan, for every reason listed by Narutolovehinata5 above. Paintspot Infez (talk) 03:51, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Striking the hooks. Addressing the comments above and looking for new hooks. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 04:15, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Narutolovehinata5 & Paintspot, some alternate hooks. Are these more suitable?

FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 13:19, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

  I'm wary of all the hooks except maybe ALT6 (which needs to specify that it is an NRA slogan). Given how controversial the slogan and material is, whoever reviews this needs to tread very carefully. Narutolovehinata5 (talk · contributions) 02:21, 11 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
Striking the variations above. Here are some variations which do not use the slogan verbatim,
ALT7... that Michael Moore, Daniel Moynihan, Ann Coulter and Donald Trump have all quoted variations of the same gun advocacy slogan?
ALT8... that the disowned weapon substitution hypothesis was highly influential in backing one of National Rifle Association's favorite slogans?
FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 11:42, 14 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
While ALT7 and ALT8 haven't been considered by a reviewer, I am striking them. I am also hiding the image that was placed to accompany the initial hook versions.
* ALT9... that this gun slogan is "scientifically inaccurate"?
* ALT9.1... that this statement about gun violence is "scientifically inaccurate"?
Source: One immediate benefit of framing gun violence as a disease is the opportunity to address misleading/limiting statements as scientifically inaccurate, yet repeated over and over again. One of the most common of these is: “Guns don’t kill people, people kill people.” The disease model provides us with accuracy: the bullet and its kinetic energy shreds, tears and destroys cells, and damages organs, leading to death and disability. While the behavioral health issues that result in a person pulling a trigger and releasing the energy need to be better understood, first and foremost we need scientifically accurate statements that advance the necessary, challenging discussions.
Source: “Guns don’t kill people; people kill people,” is a scientifically inaccurate statement, says Hargarten. ...
If anyone feels that I have not adequately interpreted and paraphrased this line, do point it out, but also please go ahead and improve the paraphrasing or strike the hook. FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 13:02, 24 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
  ALT9.2 is confirmed. QPQ is done. New enough when nominated, and long enough. I think the article is written with a serious attempt to be neutral. It perhaps goes far afield from the gun proponent views and leans in the other direction.

Comments

  1. I question why the article needs the very long somewhat confusing block quote by Bruno Latour, 1994.
  2. This numbered item is just a comment on the 8 images in the article: two are joke images, four refute the "Gun's don't kill" statement, and two images portray the slogan. A good mix perhaps.

I will AGF on many of the sources which I cannot access. Overall the article creator is to be commended for a good article on a subject that can be divisive. The article is well written and comprehensive. The slogan taken literally, is true, guns do not kill. Our hook ALT9.2 refutes the slogan, and ends up being a kind of "Oh yeah, duh" realization. Because of course the projectile kills people. We should not be scared of our own article title, so to that end, I unhid the article title in the hook. Bruxton (talk) 18:25, 5 August 2022 (UTC)Reply

Requested move 9 July 2022 edit

Latest comment: 1 year ago5 comments4 people in discussion
The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: move the article to Guns don't kill people, people kill people at this time, per the discussion below. Of course, it may make sense to create redirects from other plausible wordings. Dekimasuよ! 06:37, 16 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Guns don't kill → Guns don't kill, people kill – This is an article about a slogan and the title is not any one of the variants of the slogan. Srnec (talk) 02:34, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

Srnec, this had crossed my mind while creating and expanding the article. I think this is an uncontroversial move and does not require discussion. What may require discussion is whether the title should be "Guns don't kill, people kill" or "Guns don't kill people, people kill people". (Now that the article has some structure, it shouldn't be too hard to decide whether the shorter version is more suitable or the longer one.) However I think you should go ahead with the move you have suggested without much of a discussion. What do you think? FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 04:21, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply
If you (the creator) think it is uncontroversial, then I will just move it. My own preference would be for Guns don't kill people, people kill people, which I think is the most popular form. What do you think? Srnec (talk)
Other popular variants include "Guns don't kill people, people do", and "Guns don't kill, people do". —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 21:41, 9 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

On the basis of the article in its current state, the below table is a quick compilation of most of the citations which use the phrase and its variations relevant to the title of the article. Two things need to be considered,

  1. The number of citations where the phrase/variation is a passing mention
  2. The number of citations where the phrase/variation is the or one of the main argument/s or considered to some length

On the basis of both points, the resulting title of the article is "Guns don't kill people, people kill people".

Title variations
Guns don't kill
Guns don't kill people
Guns don't kill people, people do[1][2][3][4]
Guns don't kill people, people kill
Guns don't kill people, people kill people[5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19][20][21][22][23][24][25][26][27][28][29][30][31]
Guns do not kill people, people kill people[32]
Guns don't kill, people do[1][33][31][34][35][36]
Guns don't kill, people kill[37]
Guns don't kill, people kill people
People kill people, not guns[38]
Guns kill
Guns kill people

FacetsOfNonStickPans (talk) 06:07, 13 July 2022 (UTC)Reply

References

  1. ^ a b Long, Robert Emmet (1989). Gun Control. H.W. Wilson. pp. 69, 155. ISBN 978-0-8242-0779-3.
  2. ^ Public Papers of the Presidents of the United States. Administration of William J. Clinton. 1995. Remarks at Georgetown University. July 6, 1995 (PDF), Office of the Federal Register, National Archives and Records Administration, p. 1051
  3. ^ Sellers, Robert P. (2022-06-10). "If 'guns don't kill people, people do,' how should we respond?". Baptist News Global. Retrieved 2022-07-04.
  4. ^ Garver, Rob (5 August 2019). "Long-Powerful US Gun Lobby Mired in Scandal, Infighting". VOA. Retrieved 2022-07-07.
  5. ^ Selinger, Evan (2012-07-23). "The Philosophy of the Technology of the Gun". The Atlantic. Retrieved 2022-07-02.
  6. ^ Ibelle, Bill; Petronio, Lia (2018-07-27). "New study on firearm caliber questions the notion that 'guns don't kill people'". News@Northeastern. Northeastern University. Retrieved 2022-07-02.
  7. ^ Filipovic, Jill (2012-12-21). "The conservative philosophy of tragedy: guns don't kill people, people kill people". The Guardian. Retrieved 2022-07-07.
  8. ^ Henigan, Dennis A. (2016). "Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People": And Other Myths About Guns and Gun Control. Beacon Press. ISBN 978-0-8070-8885-2.
  9. ^ Melzer, Scott (2009). Gun Crusaders: The NRA's Culture War. NYU Press. p. 38. ISBN 978-0-8147-9597-2.
  10. ^ Anderson, Jack (1996). Inside the NRA: Armed and Dangerous : an Exposé. Dove Books. pp. 23, 153. ISBN 0-7871-0677-1.
  11. ^ Rosenbaum, Ron (1991-01-02). "Sarah and James Brady on the N.R.A., Congress, and Fighting for The "Brady Bill"". Vanity Fair. Retrieved 2022-07-08.
  12. ^ "The Toll". TIME. Vol. 91, no. 25. 21 June 1968. p. 17.
  13. ^ Zimring, Franklin; Hawkins, Gordon (1987). The Citizen's Guide to Gun Control. Macmillan Publishing Company. pp. 13–14. ISBN 0029348307.
  14. ^ Extensions of Remarks. Congressman Mikva Speaks Out For Handgun Control (PDF), 5 October 1971, p. 35160 - via govinfo.gov
  15. ^ "Congressional Record (Bound Edition)" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 159. U.S. Government Publishing Office. March 19, 2013 – via govinfo.gov.
  16. ^ "Congressional Record" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 162 (112). July 12, 2016.
  17. ^ "Congressional Record" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 158 (112): H5204. July 25, 2012 – via govinfo.gov.
  18. ^ "Congressional Record (Bound Edition)" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 153. U.S. Government Publishing Office: 9490. April 19, 2007 – via govinfo.gov.
  19. ^ "Congressional Record (Bound Edition)" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 158. U.S. Government Publishing Office: 17292. December 18, 2012 – via govinfo.gov.
  20. ^ "Congressional Record" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 145 (65). U.S. Government Publishing Office: S4839. May 6, 1999 – via govinfo.gov.
  21. ^ "Congressional Record" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 145 (86): H4577. June 17, 1999 – via govinfo.gov.
  22. ^ Woodhouse, Edward; Patton, Jason W. (2004). "Introduction: Design by Society: Science and Technology Studies and the Social Shaping of Design". Design Issues. 20 (3): 1–12. ISSN 0747-9360.
  23. ^ Resnikoff, Ned (20 December 2012). "What can philosophy of technology tell us about the gun debate?". MSNBC. Retrieved 2022-07-08.
  24. ^ Skinner, Caroline (2017). "Introducing STS Scholarship to the Gun Policy Debate in United States Society". Scripps Senior Theses: 20–26, 30.
  25. ^ Lacayo, Richard (20 December 1993). "Beyond the Brady Bill". TIME. p. 28.
  26. ^ DeFilippis, Evan (2013-10-08). "Debunking the "Guns Don't Kill People, People Kill People" Myth". Armed With Reason. Retrieved 2022-07-04.
  27. ^ Barden, Renardo (1990). Gun Control. Rourke. pp. 43–45. ISBN 0-86593-072-4.
  28. ^ Shammas, Michael (2018-04-27). "It's Time to Retire the 'Guns Don't Kill People; People Kill People' Argument. Guns Do Kill People". The Good Men Project. Retrieved 2022-07-09.
  29. ^ Moyer, Melinda Wenner (1 October 2017). "More Guns Do Not Stop More Crimes, Evidence Shows". Scientific American. Retrieved 2022-07-07.
  30. ^ "Editorial: Guns DO kill people, despite NRA cliches" (PDF). Windsor-Heights Herald. Vol. 16, no. 2. 8 January 1981. pp. 4-A.
  31. ^ a b Shields, Pete (1981). Guns Don't Die--people Do. Arbor House. pp. 32, 57. ISBN 978-0-87795-347-0.
  32. ^ "Congressional Record" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 145 (86): H4577. June 17, 1999 – via govinfo.gov.
  33. ^ Sugarmann, Josh (1992). National Rifle Association: Money, Firepower & Fear. National Press Books. pp. 222, 254. ISBN 978-0-915765-88-1.
  34. ^ "Congressional Record" (PDF). Proceedings of Congress and General Congressional Publications. 158 (163): H6833. December 18, 2012 – via govinfo.gov.
  35. ^ LaFollette, Hugh (2000-01-01). "Gun Control". Ethics. 110 (2): 263, 268. doi:10.1086/233269. ISSN 0014-1704.
  36. ^ Fletcher, C. D. (1994). Guns don't kill, people do : the NRA's case against gun control (Thesis). University of Canterbury. doi:10.26021/3980. pg 6, "This is why for the title of this thesis, I have borrowed a cliche - 'guns don't kill, people do'."
  37. ^ Pitt, Joseph C. (2014). ""Guns Don't Kill, People Kill"; Values in and/or Around Technologies". In Kroes, Peter; Verbeek, Peter-Paul (eds.). The Moral Status of Technical Artefacts. Springer Science & Business Media. pp. 89, 101. ISBN 978-94-007-7914-3 – via Google Books.
  38. ^ Latour, Bruno (1994). "On technical mediation – philosophy, sociology, genealogy". Common Knowledge. 3 (2): 30–34.
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

History and usage section. edit

Latest comment: 4 months ago2 comments1 person in discussion

The following does not seem to have any connection to the subject. There doesn't seem to be any citation that shows relevance or WP:DUE weight...

  • The ancient Roman senator Seneca is credited with Moral letters to Lucilius. In letter 87, he wrote, "30. Certain men answer this objection as follows: 'You are mistaken if you ascribe disadvantages to riches. Riches injure no one; it is a man's own folly, or his neighbor's wickedness, that harms him in each case, just as a sword by itself does not slay; it is merely the weapon used by the slayer. Riches themselves do not harm you, just because it is on account of riches that you suffer harm.' 31. I think that the reasoning of Posidonius is better: he holds that riches are a cause of evil, not because, of themselves, they do any evil, but because they goad men on so that they are ready to do evil. For the efficient cause, which necessarily produces harm at once, is one thing, and the antecedent cause is another." His first statement has been misappropriated for many centuries in favor of war production. Though his second statement says that the first is a fallacy, it has been less prominent than its pair.

For now I'm only adding a CN tag. DN (talk) 19:55, 13 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

Since there is no citation, response or discussion with regard for inclusion of this uncited and seemingly unrelated content, I am removing it as UNDUE and without consensus. DN (talk) 08:15, 15 December 2023 (UTC)Reply

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