Talk:Great Work (Hermeticism)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 26 September 2018 and 1 December 2018. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Sundcb.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 22:41, 16 January 2022 (UTC)

Split from Magnum Opus

I've split this out from --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 12:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)Magnum Opus, since the original article was just too confusing for most general readers --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 12:56, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

It makes much more sense with the correct title. Nice catch. Aleister Wilson (talk) 01:38, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

Kabbalah?

Although the original article spoke about Kabbalah, there were no references to support its use. I've therefore removed it until someone can come up with a decent citation. --Rodneyorpheus (talk) 13:00, 14 August 2009 (UTC)

the Great Work

Thomas Berry it is a shame either way: no mention of it here, and no devoted wiki for it from there. Kapler42 (talk) 18:50, 24 November 2010 (UTC)

Distinction from Magnum opus (alchemy)

This page appears to be specific to a couple neo-hermetic and occult traditions and I find the article's title confusing when comparing to Magnum opus (alchemy). Maybe this article's title could be adjusted to note that it's specific to occultism and it doesn't reflect the older hermetic and alchemical stuff? Other solutions? Car Henkel (talk) 05:00, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree, The Great Work is talked about from many different perspectives and occultists, whereas this page mainly deals with the Thelemic (Crowley's) interpretation of the Great Work. Could be good to either add more perspectives, or change the name to something like "The Great Work (Thelema)", especially because this page is part of the wiki project for Thelema. Sundcb (talk) 19:06, 4 October 2018 (UTC)

+1, creating move request. PDVk (talk) 20:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

TK

TK, aka Florence Huntley, wrote a book called The Great Work, and is associated with John Richardson and the still extant Great School of Natural Science [1]. She and John seem to be important figures in the early development of such views in the US. another work by her is Harmonics of Evolution: The Philosphy of Individual Life, Based Upon Natural Science, as Taught by Modern Masters of the Law (1897, R. F. Fenno & Co., New York)(mercurywoodrose)76.254.32.25 (talk) 23:16, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

New Content and Edits

Hello, I'm going to be adding some new content to this page. I'm going to add a new section titled "In Alchemy" which deals with the meaning of the great work in alchemical context as well as how that related to the esoteric spiritual tradition. I'm also going to add a bit more to the lead, as well as a couple minor edits to make everything fit together. I thought the article was lacking on content and cohesive information so I thought adding content would be the best thing to do. Sundcb (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

I added all that stuff yay Sundcb (talk) 17:28, 2 November 2018 (UTC)

Requested move 3 June 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved as proposed. There is no consensus for a move to "Magnum opus (Hermeticism)", but there is consensus for a move, so sticking with the original proposal. Great Work can become a dab page. On the specific objection that "Great Work isn't even mentioned, let alone linked, on the Hermeticism page", this is equivalent to saying that we can't have an article called Adelanto, California because the California article doesn't mention Adelanto. That is not particularly a reason to avoid the move.  — Amakuru (talk) 10:43, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

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Great Work → Great Work (Hermeticism) – This is a derived term from the much older and more notable use of "Great Work" in alchemy, currently on the page Magnum opus (alchemy). This should not receive pride of place above that page; Great Work should either hold the alchemy term or a disambiguation page. Argument: Magnum opus has high-quality citations, and unity of content. This page is split across three different meanings, focusing on one, and the majority of its content is quotes from primary sources. PDVk (talk) 20:22, 3 June 2019 (UTC)--Relisted. – Ammarpad (talk) 17:21, 11 June 2019 (UTC)--Relisting. Iffy★Chat -- 20:41, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

• Support but prefer Magnum opus (Hermeticism) In ictu oculi (talk) 12:39, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• In ictu oculi, Thelema uses the term in addition to Hermeticism. It calls the concept 'Great Work' and not 'Magnum Opus'. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:19, 16 June 2019 (UTC)
• It seems clear from the primary sources cited here that the Hermetic tradition (including Thelema) overwhelmingly if not universally uses the English "Great Work" rather than the Latin "Magnum opus". So while I'd support Magnum opus (Hermeticism) as better than the status quo, I think it's a suboptimal choice. PDVk (talk) 17:53, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose, there are several interpretations and uses on the page, and the Thelema template which shows this as a central concept of their concept-structure. Randy Kryn (talk) 13:08, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• As I said in the opening request, that is a flaw, not a feature. This has three concepts, two of them closely related (meaning in the broader Hermetic tradition and meaning in the hermetic subtradition of Thelema) and the third (alchemy) less related and usually referred to under a different name (Magnum Opus). And all of the descriptions are either drawn from primary sources only or are unsourced. This is a low-quality page and the best way to improve it is to move it to a more focused name under which the page can be edited to be a more comprehensive discussion of a narrower topic. PDVk (talk) 17:45, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support but prefer Magnum opus (Hermeticism) Johnbod (talk) 21:39, 15 June 2019 (UTC)

• Hermeticism and Thelema are not the same, this term is used in both and not just one. The Thelema form is not called 'Magnum opus'. Randy Kryn (talk) 04:11, 16 June 2019 (UTC)

• Support per nom. I see no compelling reason to bring "Magnum opus" into the mix. bd2412 T 00:42, 28 June 2019 (UTC)

• BD2412, this is a central concept of the Thelema belief or concept-structure. Thelema is not Hermeticism. I don't understand how editors are missing this (it's right there on the page, and the templates). Randy Kryn (talk) 20:17, 1 July 2019 (UTC)
  • Nonetheless, the article needs to be moved somewhere. "Great Work" is too ambiguous for it to remain where it is. bd2412 T 20:23, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

• ? Unless I'm missing it on a skim, Great Work isn't even mentioned, let alone linked, on the Hermeticism page (boldfacing so the closer doesn't miss it). But since it is an actual "thing" in Thelema, if it has to be moved (why would it have to be moved?) then Great Work (Thelema) should be the destination, even though this present page gives a summary of both and seems fine at this present title. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:37, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

• So maybe a 'Great Work' disamb. page for the alchemy link, the Thelema link, and a Hermeticism link, and break the article into these three parts. That may work best given the concept and the wording of the page itself. Randy Kryn (talk) 20:44, 1 July 2019 (UTC)

• Randy, the page on Thelema outright states that it is a type of Hermeticism. PDVk (talk) 17:36, 6 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

NPOV check

This page seems to present its topic firmly from the perspective of a believer in/practioner of Thelema or other Hermetic tradition. I am unsure that Template:POV check is the correct way to raise this issue, especially since it is closely linked to the page's reliance on large block quotes from primary sources, but I am confident that it is an issue which needs raising. Fixing this problem would probably entail fixing the primary source problem, but the reverse is not true. Ideally, an academic work from comparative religion or a survey of modern occult traditions would be found. --PDVk (talk) 22:44, 1 August 2019 (UTC)