Talk:Fremantle West End Heritage area

Name of the area and hence the article

According to the Heritage Council documents [1][2][3][4] the registered name is "West End, Fremantle", so I suggest that the article (and corresponding category) should be renamed to West End, Fremantle heritage area (lower case "heritage area" because that's not part of the name of the area, according to the docs). Mitch Ames (talk) 12:06, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Strong oppose I do not think that is in any way any functional usage for the general usage here in wikipedia. anything that a reader might understand would in my opinion be able to grasp. To abide by HC docs, can make this yet another head banging exercise where mitch and jarrah talk for a whole page and no one else turns up. This is very counter productive and unhelpful JarrahTree 12:13, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

• Further - simply because it is the phrase used by the Heritage Council and politicians announcing it, doesnt preclude other variants http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-17/fremantle-heritage-listing-for-west-end/8033026 - the point is the average outsider/reader would have no idea what west ends means or signifies - the better tie in is with the place name first, not the part of the place. to start playing with lower case, and going into the semantics of a words in this event is in the long term really unhelpful. JarrahTree 12:24, 21 December 2016 (UTC)

... the average outsider/reader would have no idea what west ends means or signifies ... — I don't think the average reader is going to have any more trouble with "West End, Fremantle" than with "Fremantle West End".

the better tie in is with the place name first, ... — Agreed - and the place name, according to the Heritage Council, is "West End, Fremantle".

to start playing with lower case — "Heritage" is not part of the name of the place, so MOS:CAPS says it should not be capitalised. We're not "playing with lower case", we're following well established MOS guidelines. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:44, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

other variants http://www.abc.net.au/news/2016-11-17/fremantle-heritage-listing-for-west-end/8033026 — Note the apostrophe in the title "... large chunk of Fremantle's West End" and the repeated use of "West End" without the Fremantle prefix in that article. That's because "Fremantle" is not part of the name. If they wrote an article with the title "...large chunk of Fremantle's High Street" we would not rename the High Street, Fremantle article to Fremantle High Street. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:44, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

• • @Mitch Ames and JarrahTree: I'll turn up! :-) I don't really have an opinion other than that the 'H' should be lowercase. Is West End heritage area not suitable? Why's it need to say 'Fremantle'? Plenty of time to disambiguate after all the other West Ends get their acts together. :-) —Sam Wilson 01:45, 22 December 2016 (UTC)

    Why's it need to say 'Fremantle' — because "Fremantle" is part of the registered name, according to the Heritage Council documents. Also West End is a very general term, so even if Fremantle were not part of the official name, we'd probably want to disambiguate it anyway. Mitch Ames (talk) 07:53, 23 December 2016 (UTC)

@JarrahTree: I still assert that the correct name is "West End, Fremantle" per the heritage docs. Do you still oppose the change? If so, I'll seek more opinions (eg WT:WA etc); if not, I'll rename the article. Mitch Ames (talk) 12:55, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

My preference would be "Fremantle West End heritage area", with a lower-case h for heritage. That would probably be the closest to the forms of wording used in news articles and press releases about the subject, i.e.:

• Fremantle's West End - [5], [6], [7] & [8]
• West End of Fremantle - [9] & [10]

We could mention the 'official name' used by the Heritage Council in the body text of the article. -- Meticulo (talk) 23:38, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Given that there is no consistency in how the news articles and press releases refer to the area, it makes more sense to use the official name, which is consistent and well defined (thus making it easier for the reader to associate it with the specifically defined area). As I previously mentioned, if news reports said "Fremantle's High Street" we wouldn't rename rename the High Street, Fremantle article to Fremantle's High Street - we stick with the official name plus standard format disambiguator. Conveniently for us, the official name "West End, Fremantle" uses the same format. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:39, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

@Mitch Ames: I do not like being pinged where I have stated my case clearly, it smacks of a belligerence on your part, as also does your insistence that I'll rename the article. In most cases such proposals have inadequate alternate voices in the discussion, I would suggest that many eds dont bother when confronted by lengthy discussions like these. You have your assertion, and I disagree - clearly a range of views one way or other need to be considered WP:THEREISNODEADLINE JarrahTree 00:12, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I'd go for West End, Fremantle - the "heritage area" is superfluous, and we don't include it in any other heritage listed areas of that nature. The Drover's Wife (talk) 01:51, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. The "heritage area" isn't part of the official name, so I'd be happy to leave it off the article title. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

Small problem - there are parts of the west end which are not in the defined heritage area - changing it to west end fremantle defeats the purpose of the category, as it specifically ties to the designated area. West end fremantle is not the same as the specific heritage area JarrahTree 04:39, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

That's not an insurmountable problem. We could easily have one category, with the same name as this article, whose scope is the same as the article, ie the "West End, Fremantle" area as defined by the heritage council. If so desired we could then have a 2nd category (which would be a super-category of the 1st) covering the broader "west end" (uncapitalised, because it's not a proper noun). I don't see the need for such a category, and I think it might be confusing, but its existence doesn't preclude a category limited to the Heritage Council defined area. We'd merely need to use {{Category explanation}} on each category to define the scope. Mitch Ames (talk) 08:40, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

I think I agree with Mitch, with the exception that "West End" is a proper noun (as a neighbourhood) regardless of its context. The Drover's Wife (talk) 20:39, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

comment As of today the article itself has had 6 edits taking up 1500 bytes, the talk page has had 24 edits and takes up over 8500 bytes. So the talk page is now over 5 times the length of the article! Is it just me or is this page symptomatic of pretty much everything that is currently wrong with wikipedia? Why don't you all take a deep breath, take a long hard look at yourselves and go do something useful like improve the actual article itself by contributing in some meaningful way such as expanding it further , adding pictures, digging up some more history, listing some of the buildings in the area or linking in other articles instead of pontificating over what you consider to be the more correct name. Frankly this is little more than administrivium gone berserk and the only one who can hold their head high is the editor who created the article who now has to defend is work against the hordes of nitpickers. At this point I actually feel ashamed of being part of a project that allows nd almost encourages such behavior.Hughesdarren (talk) 12:18, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

agree theres been more effort put into finding sources to promulgate arguments for the name change all of which have considerably unused information that would expanded the article beyond a stub. Surely the aim is to expand content not hold meaningless discussion throwing around perfectly good detailed sources just to argue over the order and removal of two words, who's effect is to actually have a chilling impact on those who are write the content - yes I acknowledge the irony of my comment here as well Gnangarra 15:56, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Requested move 6 March 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: not moved. The consensus is that the current title is the most appropriate title for the subject. (non-admin closure) TonyBallioni (talk) 02:47, 15 March 2017 (UTC)

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Fremantle West End Heritage area → West End, Fremantle – The article is about a specific, well-defined heritage area whose official name - as defined in the Heritage Council documents [11][12][13][14], which also define the area's extents - is West End, Fremantle. The article name should match the official name to make it clear to the reader that the article is about that precise area. I also request that Category:Fremantle West End Heritage area, which has exactly the same scope, also be renamed accordingly, for the same reasons. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:36, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support - as nominator. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:39, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• Support - clearest title for subject. The Drover's Wife (talk) 09:45, 6 March 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose - the heritage area is in fact different from what the tourist promotional material designate as 'the west end' - the matching with government materials in effect creates an error of what is generally designated and accepted for heritage documentation but not what is considered usual by members of the public. The boundaries which are determined in the heritage materials - are not the same as the west end as say in the book - Arthur, Paul Longley; Bolton, Geoffrey, 1931-; Western Australian Museum (2012), Voices from the west end, Western Australian Museum, ISBN 978-1-920843-66-3{{citation}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) CS1 maint: numeric names: authors list (link) JarrahTree 11:37, 6 March 2017 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article - which I propose renaming - is about the "designated heritage precinct", and clearly defines the area's boundary to precisely match the " West End, Fremantle" defined by the Heritage Council, eg in [15]. There may or may not be other differently delimited "west end" areas referred to by other material or the general public, but they are not the subject of this article. This article (and corresponding category) is about exactly the Heritage Council defined area, so this article's name should match the Heritage Council's name. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:18, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose - not so clear the State Heritage document refers to it as Fremantle West End and media about the refer to it as Fremantle West End heritage area City of Fremantle uses many different terms including just West End, West End Heritage area, Fremantle West End. For the moment the area appears to not to have established a specific identity but is rather describe in a multitude of different ways and has been for a long time. The current title encompasses all of those names so a search any terms would result in the articles being found, the name proposed will hinder the discovery of content unless a whole cemetery of redirects are created at all the terms used to identity the area are created. Gnangarra 01:31, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Which State Heritage document refers to it as Fremantle West End? While it's true that http://www.stateheritage.wa.gov.au/state-heritage-register/fremantle-west-end uses "Fremantle West End" in the menu and "Fremantle’s West End" in the text - as well as West End, Fremantle - the formal Registry Entry clearly and unambiguously says "NAME: West End, Fremantle" as does the Assessment Documentation, and http://inherit.stateheritage.wa.gov.au/Public/Inventory/Details/492237eb-3964-4e3e-8cfb-79ceb66bebd6 uses "West End, Fremantle" as the primary name.

"media ... refer to it ... City of Fremantle uses many different terms ... the area ... is ... describe in a multitude of different ways" – If the rest of the world consistently referred to the area in a single specific way, the WP:COMMONNAME would dictate that we use the same name. However, as you say, there is no single common name. In the absence of a single common name, the only sensible name to use is the official name used by the Heritage Council that defines the area. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:24, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

The Heritage Council doesnt define the area or the name all of that is defined by the City of Fremantle through the extensive consultation and nomination process which has taken place over the last 5-10 years thus the reason for so many differing terms and no clarity. Even in your response you highlight multiple variations on the name being used within just one document. The most sensible name to use is the one which serves the greater accessibility to all readers the current name of Fremantle West End Heritage area does that. Additionally "West End, Fremantle" format conflicts with the all other subject disambiguation formats currently in use on Australian topics where subject,dab is used for Gazetted settlement locations. Gnangarra 15:46, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

The formal Registry Entry and Assessment Documentation both use the term "West End, Fremantle" consistently, explicitly and unambiguously. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:12, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

"West End, Fremantle" format conflicts with the all other subject disambiguation formats currently in use on Australian topics where subject,dab is used for Gazetted settlement locations. — Please provide a link to the guideline that says "subject, dab" is only for "Gazetted settlement locations". Certainly WP:NCDAB allows for comma-separated disambiguation, so I hardly see that there is a "conflict". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:55, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose Gnangarra raises some good points, perhaps the most pertinent being The most sensible name to use is the one which serves the greater accessibility to all readers the current name of Fremantle West End Heritage area does that. For my mind the Fremantle City council nominated the area and most likely defined the boundaries well before the Heritage council rubber-stamped them. The Heritage Council Website also says In 2014, the City of Fremantle nominated The West End Heritage Area to the Heritage Council to be considered for entry in the State Register of Heritage Places. [16]. Hughesdarren (talk) 13:33, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

And in 2016 the Heritage Council added West End, Fremantle to the register. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:11, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

@Mitch Ames: I suggest reading the essay Wikipedia:Don't bludgeon the process Gnangarra 08:22, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

• Comment - as creator of both the articles and category, and as a potential 'expander' of articles and items to increase the size and volume of the material available for the Freopedia project, I find a talk page like this and what it exhibits an attitude that is really discouraging, debilitating, and counter productive. I did not create the category or article with the expectation of this level of discussion. The article still has references that havent been enclosed - and the article itself is now about a tenth of the size here on the talk page. The west end is not the same as the fremantle west end heritage area, could we please move on. This is hardly the crux of why we edit on wikipedia, or a productive discussion. Allegedly philosophers at some time in the past debated how many angels fit on a pin head, this has fast descended to the same level of futility and time wasting, space wasting and what it reflects badly about the project that I was really hoping could spend more time creating content - new articles, not endless talk page discussions that resolve nothing. I know of some editors who will now no longer wish to edit in this subject area because of this level of discussion, and what it exudes. JarrahTree 10:34, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

"The west end is not the same as the fremantle west end heritage area"
As I mentioned in my earlier post, the Fremantle West End Heritage area article says it is about the "designated heritage precinct", all the references imply that the article is about the specific Heritage Council place number 25225 and the description of the area in the article exactly matches that Heritage Council place named West End, Fremantle. So it very much looks like the Wikipedia article and Heritage Council place number 25225 "West End, Fremantle" are exactly the same area. If the intent is that the Wikipedia article be about a different area then perhaps the article needs to be updated to describe an area that is not exactly the same as the Heritage Council's "West End, Fremantle". Mitch Ames (talk) 13:24, 9 March 2017 (UTC)

• Compromise - what if we rename it West End, Fremantle heritage area (note the capitalisation). This includes the heritage registered name (capitalised, as a proper noun) and also the words "heritage area" (lower case because it is not part of the heritage registered name) as a descriptor to meet search requirements. This also resolves the problem with the current title where the word "heritage" is capitalised but the word "area" is not - I don't recall seeing anything that used the proper noun / name "Fremantle West End Heritage" to describe a (common noun) area.

The lead sentence would then be:

West End, Fremantle is a registered heritage area in Fremantle, Western Australia.

Mitch Ames (talk) 12:12, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

Misses the point completely - it is not...

Wikipedia:Drop_the_stick_and_back_slowly_away_from_the_horse_carcass JarrahTree 13:17, 10 March 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Infobox historic sites

I just tried adding {{infobox historic site}} but reverted myself as the infobox needs to be filled out better than I could at first (see what displayed). Maybe it could be drafted better here. Please help edit here and/or add to the article! It displayed "designation invalid" because the template is not yet set up for any Australian historic registers (which can be fixed, perhaps should be discussed/requested at Template talk:infobox historic site. --doncram 01:18, 17 April 2017 (UTC)

Drafted infobox (please feel free to improve):

Fremantle West End Heritage Area
Area	200,000 square metres (49 acres)
Architect	Various
Architectural style(s)	Federation, other
Invalid designation
Designated	2016