Talk:Fredy Hirsch

Zusana Ruzickova

Famously, Zuzana Růžičková claimed that Hirsch saved her life. JezGrove (talk) 22:35, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks — I've incorporated that detail into his article. Catrìona (talk) 23:22, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

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GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Fredy Hirsch/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Vami IV (talk · contribs) 11:27, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Opening statement

I am reviewing this article as the WikiProject Germany Coordinator, and am on good terms with the article nominator, Catrìona.

In reviews I conduct, I may make small copyedits. These will only be limited to spelling and punctuation (removal of double spaces and such). I will only make substantive edits that change the flow and structure of the prose if I previously suggested and it is necessary. For replying to Reviewer comment, please use  Done,  Fixed,  Added,  Not done,  Doing..., or  Removed, followed by any comment you'd like to make. I will be crossing out my comments as they are redressed, and only mine. A detailed, section-by-section review will follow. —Vami♜_IV♠ 11:27, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

Referencing

I have no comment to make on the references themselves, but will discuss the notes here as per my custom. —Vami♜_IV♠ 20:40, 30 October 2018

• a: Dirk Kämper found no evidence that Hirsch had ever been enrolled there, but found that he probably attended lectures. "Found" is used twice here and to the detriment of the sentence.

 Fixed

• b: Brno [...] Czechoslovakia Link.

 Done

• d: Why is this here? / Why does this exist?

 Removed

Just a note: sorry if that comment came off as confrontational. –Vami

Early life

As it is, this section reminds me of Belgium. "Germany" deals with Hirsch's early life and education in Germany, while "Czechoslovakia" details his flight from Germany and work in Czechoslovakia and work during the early Holocaust. I would delete the "Germany" header and move "Czechoslovakia" to "Holocaust". —Vami♜_IV♠ 20:56, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article on the Holocaust states that "The Holocaust was a genocide during World War II in which Nazi Germany, aided by its collaborators, systematically murdered some six million European Jews... between 1941 and 1945." In my opinion, it would not be appropriate to move the section to make it sound like the Holocaust started in 1935.

• Hirsch took over the leadership of the scouting branch of the local Aachen Jewish youth association This scouting?

 Done

• Jüdischer Pfadfinderbund Deutschland Translate name (Jewish Scouting Association of Germany, if I'm not mistaken) and put in the parentheses following the German name.

 Done

• Fredy and Paul Frequent occurrence here. Replace with surnames per MOS:SURNAME.

• Per the relevant subsection of the linked policy MOS:SAMESURNAME, To distinguish between people with the same surname in the same article or page, use given names or complete names to refer to each of the people upon first mention. For subsequent uses, refer to them by their given names for clarity and brevity.

• Oh. I missed that they were brothers. I've added their shared surname to establish the connection for buffoons like me. –Vami

• Survivors reported that Czech songs were written about him. Not really the best place for this to be. This is also inexact; I would assume from the prose quoted here that are indeed Czech-language songs about Fredy Hirsch.

• Where do you think it should go? I considered putting it in the Legacy section, but it would be clumsy to then add that the songs dated to this particular time period. Specifying "Czech-language" would be redundant since the previous sentence specifically mentions the Czech language.

The Holocaust

• Paragraph two of "Theresienstadt" should be simplified, as it does not come off as NPOV. My main bone to pick with this is this sentence: He maintained good posture and an impeccable appearance, including combed hair and polished boots,[14][25] and reportedly continued to pomade his hair at Auschwitz.[31]

This is how it's reflected in the sources, but I've altered the wording to be more encyclopedic.

• As of time of writing, the first sentence of paragraph two establishes that Hirsch is confident, and sentences one and two establish that he is pretty. Consider whittling down the sentence Because of Hirsch's German heritage, his confidence, and his appearance, he was able to establish a good relationship with SS guards even though he was Jewish and openly gay.

Cut

• Jews from Theresienstadt First sentence in "Auschwitz" used this, no need to use it again for the second.

 Fixed

• Hirsch was initially appointed the lagerälteste of the family camp, Delete "initially".

 Removed

• Arno Böhm Who is this?

 Fixed

• German criminal Arno Böhm This still doesn't tell me who Arno Böhm is. –Vami

• He was sent to Auschwitz after being convicted of murder, but I'm not sure how that is germane to Hirsch.

• a children's opera was performed Just once?

The source is not clear if there was a repeat performance.

• and supplies were scrounged I have an issue with using the word "scrounge" here. It makes it sound like like Hirsch and associates were digging those supplies out of the trash or begging for them, rather than convincing the Germans to furnish them as Hirsch had done prior.

 Removed

• According to Zuzana Růžičková, on one occasion, Hirsch said to an SS man, "Herr Oberscharführer, who have you killed and looted today?"[i] in order to distract him from Růžičková's unauthorized presence. There's no transition to this from the rest of the paragraph, and I don't know where Růžičková was or why.

 Fixed

• [...] because he did not smoke. Redundant, remove.

 Removed

• it was performed on 23 January. Break this clause off into its own sentence and include the year.

 Done

• The appreciation that Hirsch received for his untiring efforts is shown by a surprise birthday party that the children threw for him on 11 February 1944 for his 28th birthday. Not NPOV, uses present-tense. Simplify.

 Done, although this is how the party is presented in the source!

GA progress

Good Article review progress box Criteria: 1a. prose () 1b. MoS () 2a. ref layout () 2b. cites WP:RS () 2c. no WP:OR () 2d. no WP:CV () 3a. broadness () 3b. focus () 4. neutral () 5. stable () 6a. free or tagged images () 6b. pics relevant () Note: this represents where the article stands relative to the Good Article criteria. Criteria marked are unassessed

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Inconsistency with Theresienstadt_family_camp#Background

Fredy_Hirsch#Auschwitz says "These efforts were part of an effort to mislead the Red Cross about the Final Solution in advance of the June 1944 Red Cross visit to Theresienstadt; the Germans were also considering a Red Cross visit to the family camp at Birkenau." but Theresienstadt_family_camp#Background seems to indicate that this isn't necessarily true. I don't have access to the book that was cited for that in question, so I thought it'd be worth trying to find more sources to reconcile this inconsistency. – FenixFeather ^{(talk)(Contribs)} 23:59, 30 October 2018 (UTC)

@FenixFeather: I wrote both articles, and I'm not sure that they're inconsistent, just less detail being presented here than in the other article. But since it's a complex and debateable topic (there being a distinct lack of hard evidence to support any of the distinguished historians' speculations) and not really related to Hirsch's life, I've just removed the sentence in this article. Catrìona (talk) 00:04, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Oh, that's too bad. I really enjoyed reading the articles, though. Great writing! – FenixFeather ^{(talk)(Contribs)} 06:04, 31 October 2018 (UTC)

Legacy Section

In the legacy section, the word "tzadik" is translated as righteous or decent. It does not translate to decent, just righteous. I suggest that should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dkelber (talk • contribs) 19:53, 11 February 2021 (UTC)

stolperstein

The stolperstein for Fredy Hirsch is located at Martin-Luther-Straße 7 in Aachen and not at Richardstraße 7 as stated in the article. The stone was erroneously laid on Richardstraße first. The picture is up-to-date with the correct coordinates. https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Stolperstein_Fredy_Hirsch;_50.77398_6.09503;_Martin-Luther-Stra%C3%9Fe_7;_February_2024_in_Aachen;_2024_photographs_of_Aachen.jpg and as source i have also this: https://www.stolpersteine-homosexuelle.de/fredy-hirsch . This source is old (and also wrong): http://www.wgdv.de/stolpersteine/personenverzeichnis/90-hirsch,-alfred-fredy Qwertzu111111 (talk) 08:02, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Qwertzu111111 Thanks for your photograph. It looks like a new stone was created at some point before 2021 with a different wording (File:Stolperstein_Ferdy_Hirsch,_Aachen_(neu).JPG) and installed at the Richardstraße location. Per the stolpersteine-homosexuelle.de website, which refers to "Stolperstein für Fredy Hirsch, neu verlegt im Jahr 2023, Aachen," at the Martin-Luther-Straße location but also has an older photograph labeled "Stolperstein (alt) Fredy Hirsch, Aachen, Richardstraße 7", it was moved to the present location in 2023. I've updated the article accordingly. (t · c) buidhe 09:29, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

buidhe Thanks so much for your quick and kind response and help. Yes, it is a little bit tricky. The first stone (with old wording) was located in Richardstraße 7. Then a new stone was made (because the wording was wrong!) and located at the same old (and wrong) place. In 2023 the stone moved to the new place (Martin-Luther-Straße 7) where it is still today. The confusion came because the street was re-named in 1933.....and nobody knew in 2008 where the house of his parents was. Qwertzu111111 (talk) 09:47, 28 February 2024 (UTC)