Talk:Ferdinand Schörner

NPOV

This biography rather eggs the pudding. It was the failure of Schörner's Army Group Centre to hold the 1st Ukrainian Front (Ivan Koniev) on 16th and 17th of April 1945 that unhinged the main defence in the Battle of Berlin by Army Group Vistula (Gotthard Heinrici) which was successfully resisting the main attack by 1st Belorussian Front (Georgy Zhukov) against their positions on the Seelow Heights.

So I think the claim that "The Soviets, impressed by the defense of Courland and Berlin regarded Schörner as the best German frontline general" needs a source. Philip Baird Shearer 15:57, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

A NPOV was added by User:Sherurcij at 22:10, 21 Mar 2005. What are your objections to the article? Philip Baird Shearer 23:12, 4 Jun 2005 (UTC)

deserted his command

On the May 8 an OKW colonel, was escorted through the American lines to see Schörner. The colonel reported that Schörner had ordered the men under his operational command to observer the surrender but that he could not guarantee that he would be obeyed everywhere. Later that day Schörner deserted his command and flew to Austria where on the May 18 he was arrested by the Americans.

Since I added this text which is sourced from "Battle of Berlin end of the Third Reich" by Earle F Ziemke, I have seen other sources which says that he formally surrendered his army group to the Soviets on May 10 and then flew to Austria. Both can not be right. If you know the answer please post it with the source to this page, because it effects this page, Prague Offensive, Army Group Centre, end of World War II in Europe --Philip Baird Shearer 19:25, 12 Apr 2005 (UTC)

According to Ian Kershaw's book The End, pp.374-375, Schörner gave a somewhat questionable explanation for this:

"In his proclamation of 5 May, Schörner had promised his soldiers: 'You can have trust in me, that I will lead you out of this crisis'117 But after his return from years in Soviet captivity, Schörner, facing trial in West Germany,118 was forced to defend himself vehemently against accusations levelled by his own former Chief of Staff, Lieutenant-General Natzmer, that he, the most fervent follower throughout of Hitler and the most ferocious adherent of fighting to the last, had left his troops in the lurch at the end. It was said that on 8 May he had fled in civilian clothing by plane to the Austrian Alps, hiding for some days in a hut before handing himself over to the Americans, who a few weeks later delivered him to the Russians.119 According to Schörner's own later account, he left Army Group Centre only on the morning of 9 May, when his command had been removed following the capitulation. He had, he claimed, been led to believe from Flensburg that the capitulation could be postponed until around 12 May, and he had until then to bring his troops home. Taken completely by surprise by the sudden news of the Rheims surrender, which, through communications difficulties, reached him only after a costly delay of several hours, he had been unable to fulfil his promise of 5 May to lead his troops back in formation and instead, on 7 May, had given the orders for an organised flight.120 To the end of his life he asserted that his flight to Austria had been with the intention of carrying out Hitler's orders to establish an Alpine front to continue the fight.121 But although Schörner left his troops as he claimed on 9 May when his command had formally ceased following capitulation, it remains the case that the men whose discipline he had enforced with a rod of iron were now suddenly abandonned to their fate.122 And the justification he gave for his flight to Austria shows, true or not, that even now he was prepared to argue that he was following an order from Hitler."

Hopefully this helps, though I realise this is an old topic. Flanker235 (talk) 12:49, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Post-war trials and imprisonments

It's doubtful Schörner was "arrested in 1951", when he was already a Soviet POW from 1945-1955. This should probably say "sentenced". — Preceding unsigned comment added by Repkow (talk • contribs) 20:31, 18 May 2014 (UTC)

Did the Americans hand him over to the Soviets? None of this is made clear in the article. Valetude (talk) 10:16, 22 March 2016 (UTC)

According to Kershaw they did. During his later trial in West Germany, his former Chief of Staff, Lieutenant Natzmer accused Schörner of leaving his troops in the lurch. Natzmer said that Schörner had fled to Austria in civilian clothing and hidden in a hut for a few days before surrendering to the Americans. It was apparently the Americans who handed him over to the Red Army. Schörner's story was somewhat different and he claimed that he had been sent by Hitler to Austria to open up an Alpine front. Flanker235 (talk) 19:07, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

my fixes

Saying he deserted his command seems rather severe. The whole German army had surrendered at Reims, he'd informed his command, told OKW he couldn't guarantee complete compliance and in the general meltdown, headed for Austria. So far as being the "best frontline general", this seems like a rash judgement and it's likely the Sovs were more interested in his propaganda value. So I've removed the problematic language in both cases and it doesn't seem to sway the content much at all. Given that, I've zapped the disputed tag as well, sorry if I've botched it somehow. Wyss 07:45, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

It was his Army Group which the Soviets penetrated with relative ease in the Battle of Berlin, so removing his defence of Berlin was the correct thing to do. He did not recognise that he reported to the OKW and I will add a bit to explain that. He did desert his command. It is customary that when a military unit is ordered to surrender by their commanding officer, that the commanding officer surrenders at the same time (little ritual of handing over the sword, or pistol, and then if respected by the other side being told that they can keep it and all that). A commander does not order his men to surrender and then run away! Is the point about him being promoted by Hitler in his LWT, enough to make the point that this guy was on side with Hitler right up to the end in a way that almost no other senior officer was (other than those in the Bunker), or does it need emphasising? Philip Baird Shearer 08:41, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think it does need much emphasising, along with the accompanying paradox of abruptly leaving his command in that context, which is interesting, though by that time, the Hitler faithful knew it was more than over with... a meltdown, chaos, Hitler dead by suicide and all that... he'd probably heard about senior officials being arrested (not just held as POWs) and all of them already knew about the impending war crimes trials, news of which had been published in the anglo-saxon press etc. The bit about his not recognizing OKW sounds vaguely familiar but I've thoroughly forgotten what it was about. Anyway please add away!

Oops, I remember now, sort of. Everything was wrapped into OKW after Germany had shrunk between east and west. I'm still a bit unclear as to why he wouldn't have recognized that chain, could it be he didn't think von Runstedt (for example) was sufficiently hard core or whatever? Wyss 11:32, 12 Jun 2005 (UTC)

who surrendered?

The document signed in Reims on 8 may was an unconditional surrender of the German army, navy, and air force (not only the Wehrmacht). Since Doenitz's civilian government was never recognized by the allies, legal research promptly confirmed it as a surrender of the German military and (de facto, since it was unconditional) any civilian government, which is to say, the Third Reich, so I reverted the edit. Wyss 01:47, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

I think that this point is covered in the note above, but the article still says that Jodl "was negotiating a surrender of all German forces". This is factually incorrect since the allies did not negotiate with the Nazis. Instead Jodl accepted the allied terms of unconditional surrender. All he did was sign the document. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 66.245.218.227 (talk • contribs) 03:33, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

He did not negotiate the terms of surrender, which were unconditional, but he did negotiate the mechanics of it: whether he had the authority to do so for all German forces, the timing of it, the details of how it was to be done etc (eg see SPECIAL ORDERS and ANNEXUREs [1])See also this site which talks about "and Adm. Hans-Georg von Friedeburg, one of the German chief negotiators". This site "Alfred Jodl entering SHAEF at 5:15. He went to a private office and conferred with Gen. Adm. Friedeberg. Then they both went to Gen. B. Smith's office and talked for over an hour and a half". Wikipedia is not the only site to talk about negotiations eg US gov archives: "Karl Donitz, sent a representative to negotiate a comprehensive military surrender with the Allied command, which was then headquartered in Rheims, France. While the Germans stalled for time to allow as many soldiers and civilians as possible to move west in order to escape the savagery of the Red Army, Eisenhower's patience ran out. Finally, at 2:41 a.m. on May 7, with no remaining options, Col. Gen. Alfred Jodl, representing the German High Command of the armed forces, signed the formal unconditional surrender of all German forces." -- Philip Baird Shearer 08:04, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

STASI

the "smear campaign" is propaganda. he was convicted by a west german court because of his desertation and his unlawful death sentences - even conservative politicians distanced from his person. (source: german wikipedia) —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.191.134.178 (talk • contribs) 22:20, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

Please add any new sections to the bottom of this talk page. It is the way it is done. Also please sign your additions to the talk page by adding: ~~~~

You can edit the page and fix it if you want to. --Philip Baird Shearer 00:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

COPYRIGHT

most parts of the article are probably taken from here biography.ms --—The preceding unsigned comment was added by 84.191.134.178 (talk • contribs) 22:25, 24 November 2005 (UTC)

See the bottom of the ferdinand-schorner.biography.ms page. It is a copy of Wikipedia (this source) --Philip Baird Shearer 00:53, 25 November 2005 (UTC)

Article is biased and needs cleaning up

I agree with the prior contribution. The article is currently biased towards Schörner by not delving into the controversy that developed about him after the war - some of the veterans under his command loved him, some hated him. The article is making unsourced claims about a Stasi smear campaign - these need to be sourced or removed, in my view.

Regarding the desertion, German military courts sentenced German soldiers for violations of the Wehrmacht disciplinary code until weeks after the war ended in Denmark. The surrender did not affect this at all. That the 'Iron Ferdinand' who had soldiers shot and demoted for minor failings in their duty takes off in a plane to escape the Red Army is not just grimly ironic (he could dish it out, but not take it), but also would have fulfilled his own definition of desertion. Ziemke is the foremost US historian working on the Wehrmacht in the 1960s. If he claims it was desertion (working from German army records), the claim is well sourced and should be left in. This is supposed to be a biography, not a hagiography.

I have added a needs cleaning up tag.

Andreas 17:25, 15 December 2005 (UTC)

It is not just a question of legality, it is a question of honour (like a captain being the last one off a ship). For example see what happened to Lieutenant-General Henry Gordon Bennett who left the men of the Australian 8th Division to go into captivity at the fall of Singapore[2][3]. There are blog sites which report that the soldiers of Australin army nickname for their running shoes "Gordon Bennetts" for a time after that. --Philip Baird Shearer 18:53, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

I agree. I have just looked up Duffy's 'Red Storm on the Reich', and it gives to contradictory versions of the departure of Schoerner. 1) is provided by his ADC and cousin Lieutenant Helmut Dirner who was not present at the event, the other by his chief of staff, Lieutenant-General Natzmer, who was.

1) Schoerner left on orders of Hitler to take command of the 'National Redoubt' in Bavaria.

2) Schoerner on the 8 May left his Army Group, despite representations by Natzmer that his proper place was at its head, stating that he had already given freedom to everyone to go west, and was now merely claiming the same for himself. He raced to an airfield followed by Natzmer in another car. The first airfield was already overrun by Soviet tanks, the second one had a Fieseler Storch waiting. Natzmer asked for the plane for use in liason with units under command of the Army Group. Schoerner, who was by then drunk and in Bavarian national costume, 'browbeat' the guards of the plane into leaving it to him and escaped.

Andreas 19:09, 6 March 2006 (UTC)

RE:Article is biased and needs cleaning up

He could dish it out but not take it? The Soviets gave him the option of being a General in the to-be-formed East German army or going to a gulag where he would have unquestionably been tortured and abused. On his guilt for the crimes of which he was accused during the war, I cannot comment, but nonetheless the man was no coward. However, the article does need to be cleaned up. -Gabriel.

• Articles on Wikipedia are not supposed to represent the personal opinions of posters. They are supposed to be encyclopaedic. This article is simply written up in a defamatory manner apparently based upon one or two people's opinions/writings. Britannica would not permit this and nor should we. 86.130.32.209 (talk) 21:38, 9 February 2018 (UTC)

Template:Disputed-section

I do not think that all the article needs a clean up, and not all the article has an unbalanced POV. So I have replaced the NPOV article template with specific section "template:Disputed-section" and added {{fact}} to the sentences that I think need citing. --Philip Baird Shearer 17:00, 11 May 2006 (UTC)

External links modified

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Wehrmachtbericht transcript

I suggest removal of the Wehrmachtbericht as NPOV and OR:

• In the heavy fighting in the area of Nikopol have the Ostmark, Bavaria, Rhineland-Westphalia, Saxony, Mecklenburg, Pomerania and East Prussia Division under the command of the General of Mountain Troops Schörner and the generals Brandenberger, Mieth and Kreysing in the time frame of 5 November 1943 to 15 February 1944 in offensive and defensive actions, prevented Bolsheviks attempts to break through with cold steel and inflicted heavy losses. Thereby have been captured or destroyed. 1754 tanks, 533 guns, many other weapons and other military equipment, 56 enemy aircraft have been shot down by infantry weapons.
• In the second defensive battle in Courland, units of the army and Germanic volunteers of the Waffen SS under the command of Colonel General Schörner, again won a full defensive victory.

Please see discussions at Rommel and Manstein Talk pages. Please let me know of any concerns. K.e.coffman (talk) 21:27, 24 June 2016 (UTC)

Why has the Dates of rank section been commented out?

I wonder why the Dates of rank section has been commented out? Is it because there is no ref? Can that be remedied? DadaNeem (talk) 04:28, 28 April 2018 (UTC)