Talk:Emirate of Bari

Vandalism

I want to justify labelling Gennarous edit "vandalism": he removed every citation from the article and several sources. That is vandalism, even if the user did not intend to be a vandal. He should have known better than to remove sourcing wholesale! Srnec (talk) 23:13, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Fact tags

The fact tags added by Gennarous are redundant: obviously Sawdan re-entered his capital, he ruled for another 12 years, the "high civilisation" at Bari is referred to in the next two sourced sentences, and the relationship between Bari and the Christians is mentioned in the sentence after with a source. Not every sentence needs a footnote: be careful to read sentences in context. Srnec (talk) 13:30, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

External links modified

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African Dynasty of Bari

Why is the African reference always removed (the best choice as it still covers North African?)

There was no Berber "slaves" in Sicily, the Berbers were a big part of the Emirate army, they were mainly concentrated in Southern Sicily and had their own autonomous towns, until they were expelled from Sicily by an Arab-Siculo-Saqaliba alliance in the 11th century.

The Arab Chronicles were clear on the Mawali population of the Emirate of Sicily:

• Saqaliba Serbian Slave Soldiers (who lived in Harat as-Saqaliba protected the Royal Arab dynasty inside Khalsa, Palermo)
• Palace Slaves African Eunuchs & the offspring of African Concubines. (Lived inside Khalsa)
• Byzantine Siculos Were enslaved in the later stage of the Emirate, mainly by Siculo Muslims, Berbers & Fatimids. (After the fall of Bari)

The 3 Emirs who ruled Bari, had typical African slaves names (Arabic surnames). They were listed as Mawali, so it means they were the offspring of African Concubines (Berbers were not enslaved in Sicily & Rarely enslaved elsewhere). Droveaxle (talk) 09:37, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

Emirate of Bari geography

Changed the inaccurate "centered around Bari", the Emirate raided areas further north of Bari, but they didn't have any known possessions to the north (no records of towns taken back).

The Emirate major towns were:

• Bari 841-871
• Taranto 841-871
• Matera 841-867
• Oria 841-867

The geography makes the geographic center of the Emirate the inland region between those towns, not Bari which should be closer to the northern region of the Emirate. Droveaxle (talk) 10:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Zanj, Mawali & African

The Mawali term in Aghalbid Sicily specifically means Zanj, the Aghlabids were recent Arabian tribe that concentrated in Tunis. In annual records they accounted at near 100,000 Arabs with near 20% average of Zanj slaves (5% retained Slaves), Zanj was of their main sources of income.

If you want to change the term, please explain it here. Reference the Arab Mawali status in Sicily at 841 AD (still recently Arrived Aghlabid), with only two slave groups. Arabized Zanj (along with Arab Zanj offspring) & Slavic Saqaliba who were previously Hellenized & just changed hands from Byzantine ownership to the Emirate. Droveaxle (talk) 08:48, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

Infobox

This article would benefit from an Infobox as it would quickly convey key information about the Emirate to readers (like it's founding, leadership etc.). It has been alleged that this page does not need an infobox, but no reasoning was provided to support this position. Additionally, it has also been protested that the infobox would adversely affect the aesthetics of this page. My response to this would be that it doesn't ruin the aesthetics as well as that a wikipedia page's ability to convey information is of far more importance than idiosyncratic notions of beauty. Seacaibiteach (talk) 02:39, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

But the founding and leadership are there in the first two sentences: "The Emirate of Bari was a short-lived Islamic state ruled by Berbers. It was ruled from the south Italian city of Bari from 847 to 871."

No page needs an infobox. See MOS:INFOBOXUSE: "The use of infoboxes is neither required nor prohibited for any article. Whether to include an infobox, which infobox to include, and which parts of the infobox to use, is determined through discussion and consensus among the editors at each individual article."

I would contend that Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and conveys information primarily through prose. Since the article is short and the topic rather obscure, there is no need to summarize it in a box. It is not like a modern country with a precise area and population, various codes, time zones, official languages, etc. Srnec (talk) 03:41, 24 May 2019 (UTC)

Emirate of Bari

@Srnec: Last four informations also do not talk about Emirate of Bari then we have to remove that informations too. My information is in this context. Mikola22 (talk) 06:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

"A few towns were apparently freed of Muslim control", "Louis attacked Bari" and "In February 871 the citadel fell and Sawdan" clearly tell us something relevant about the end of the emirate. The Byzantine sentence could be dropped. However, "during the siege inhabitants of Ragusa transported Croats and other Archons of Slavs on their ships to Lombardy" has nothing to do with Bari at all. Srnec (talk) 06:26, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

@Srnec: see my edit now. Mikola22 (talk) 06:55, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

But we basically already say this: "Louis attacked Bari ... aided by a Croatian fleet". And I think by "Lombardy" you really mean Longobardia. Srnec (talk) 17:18, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

Yes, Longobardia. My information from the source has more valuable fact for the article. "Croats", "Slavs", "fleet of Ragusa", "Domagoj". I think that in this case "Croatian fleet" doesn’t say very much if we compare it with information from my source. Mikola22 (talk) 18:01, 7 November 2020 (UTC)

African Dynasty

European nationalists, who can't accept the idea that Africans ruled mainland Italy, need to put their emotions aside and read the original Arab sources, they made it clear that the dynasty was ruled by African Zanj. Berbers were vassals, but not slaves in Southern Sicily (Jirjant) they never had any presence in Southern Italy, except the in the Post-Emirate era when all Muslims were rounded up and given Lucera. NewimageEU (talk) 06:44, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Please cite the Arabic source that refers to any of the ruler of Bari as Zanj. Srnec (talk) 15:50, 21 November 2020 (UTC)

Longest-lasting

I removed the sentence in the intro that calls it the "most lasting episode in the history of Islam in peninsular southern Italy. I don't believe that a statement like that can be properly sourced. The Emirate of Bari was certainly the most well-documented episode, but the Emirate of Taranto is, I believe, conventionally dated to 880 and at any rate lasted a few years past the end of the Emirate of Bari. Giosuè Musca dates the Emirate of Taranto from 846-880 in his book on the Emirate of Bari. At any rate, claims of much longer periods of Muslim rule are sometimes made for towns in the interior and the records are so scant that such a definitive statement is in my opinion incorrect. Alistoriv (talk) 19:42, 23 February 2021 (UTC)

Not short lived or longest lasting, but Emirate of Bari was the only independent state. The other muslim towns were ruled by Greek or Arab muslims who were always vassals of Palermo or Christian rulers in mainland Italy. The Rulers of Bari were the only Italian sovereign emirate at that era.Mazulu1010 (talk) 11:07, 24 March 2021 (UTC)

Emirate of Bari was not the only independent Islamic state in Italy, the race issue made it stand out.

File:Princeton Viking, Magyar and Saracen Invasions in 9th and 10th Century Europe.jpg

Emirate of Bari location within the Islamic states in Italy (Grey)

Cozmopolio (talk) 09:23, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

African diaspora

African diaspora category should be added Shakurism (talk) 09:18, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for speedy deletion:

• Princeton Viking, Magyar and Saracen Invasions in 9th and 10th Century Europe.jpg

You can see the reason for deletion at the file description page linked above. —Community Tech bot (talk) 07:23, 29 August 2021 (UTC)

Territory.

The map of the Emirate of Bari and other Islamic states in Italy under discussion

The Emirate of Bari was a largely maritime state, the same goes for the other Islamic polities in Italy. This map is inaccurate and should be removed as it is highly unlikely that anything outside of Bari and it's countryside was actually under their control for any considerable period of time. Petarrc13 (talk) 12:08, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

Ive used books, historical, and other sources making this map. Bari indeed held areas outside the core city AbdurRahman AbdulMoneim Userd898 10:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi Userd898, please add the sources you used (including page numbers etc.) to the metadata of File:Islamic states in Italy.png. Once the map is verifiable in those reliable sources, it becomes possible to discuss its merit. Unsourced maps should never be used on Wikipedia. Thanks, ☿ Apaugasma (talk ☉) 11:25, 1 February 2023 (UTC)