Talk:Combat Zone, Boston

Untitled

This article is useless until the authors cite their sources. --DeanoNightRider 12:45, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your help.

Atlant 14:40, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

While the comment may have been a little gratuitous, it is correct: there are no sources for any of the information in the article.--Vidkun 22:49, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

"In addition, the advent of AIDS can not be ruled out as a contributing factor." We also can't rule out divine intervention or brainwashing by aliens. Should this be deleted? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.21.186 (talk) 20:57, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the Combat Zone got its name from any article. During the wars, the soldiers shipping out to Europe gathered here and partied at the burlesque houses etc. After the war of course the soldiers were gone but the underworld services remain albeit with a signicantly reduced clientele. Thus the degeneration began. The article is good history from 1960, but needs more research prior to when the CZ was really buzzing- ColeK98 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Colek98 (talk • contribs) 03:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

@Colek98, do you mean Scollay Square? There's some info about that here. You make a good point, it could well have been called the Combat Zone before it moved. --Rosekelleher (talk) 22:00, 15 December 2014 (UTC)

Which Combat Zone?

This article claims that Billy Joel mentioned the Combat Zone in his song; but that link doesn't go here. How do we know he was referring this combat zone? Do we have a citation?--Prosfilaes (talk) 16:08, 19 May 2012 (UTC)

I strongly suspect that claim's incorrect. I don't know if there's any definitive source, but there's pretty widespread agreement among fans that the line's most likely a reference to Saigon. The strongest evidence that it's not likely referring to Boston's Combat Zone would seem to be that when the line appears in the lyrics, it's printed as "combat zone", in all lower-case, not as a proper name. -- FeRD_NYC (talk) 15:05, 20 June 2012 (UTC)

There is no question that the reference to "Combat Zone" in the song is most definitely a Boston reference. It does not refer to Saigon or any other foreign place or an actual war zone because in the very next line, he says "I walked through Bedford-Stuy alone." This is an obvious reference to Bedford–Stuyvesant, Brooklyn. The whole point of those lyrics is to indicate that he has put himself in precarious situations which may make someone think he is "crazy." In many Billy Joel songs, he makes references to places in the north eastern United States, particularly Massachusetts and New York. -- mdmann00 (talk) 17:53, 8 July 2012 (HST)

But Boston is not part of Brooklyn. Certainly any combat zone is a precarious situation. As there's no citation, I'm going to delete it. If someone can find a citation (not "there is no question"), I'll have no objection to returning it to the article.--Prosfilaes (talk) 05:39, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Agree. We can't tell for sure, one way or the other, what was intended. SethTisue (talk) 13:47, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I've (re)deleted the reference. Absent a clear statement from Joel himself that he meant Boston, it's misleading at best to make this claim as if it were definitive. You want it back, cite a source (don't just say "there is no question", because clearly at least three of us think there is a question). 72.197.227.204 (talk) 22:41, 22 May 2013 (UTC)

the real question is whether some place in new york is also using the "combat zone" moniker. clearly joel is talking about a place LIKE the one in boston, if not the boston one itself.

why not a mention? just say he refers to some bed/stuy district as a combat zone..."borrowing the term from boston" or somesuch. surely he cannot be the first to apply the term to another city. 209.172.25.157 (talk) 01:14, 6 June 2013 (UTC)

Because we don't know he was borrowing the term from Boston. I don't know what you mean by the first to apply the term to another city; "Combat Zone" is a generic enough term to be used without reference to Boston.--Prosfilaes (talk) 02:32, 7 June 2013 (UTC)

if it's generic enough, then why is this article even HERE? i thought the whole point was that the term was coined for the boston one, and that maybe -- MAYBE -- it had spread a BIT to some other cities.

i just tried googling "combat zone"s in NY, chicago, san francisco, and LA. very very few hits using it as a nickname for a district. except SF which adds "...named after the one in boston".

billy joel may not be borrowing the term from boston, but then SOMEBODY did before him. either way, he's using it in the same manner -- why not an entry under popular culture saying the term has "limited use for redlight/dangerous districts in other cities as well"?

add on "whether these were named for the boston district or arose independently is unknown" if you like. of course, you'll also need to remove the "etymology" section. you cannot attribute the popularity of the term to one specific writer at the same time as asserting it is generic enough to be popping up in use everywhere anyways! 209.172.25.147 (talk) 03:41, 8 June 2013 (UTC)

I'd bet on the Boston identity based on the usage in the lyrics adjoining the reference to bed/stuy, but without some references, this conjecture should remain on the talk page. The man is still alive. Someone could ask him or explore any fan sites, usenet groups etc. Damn: that would be OR, wouldn't it.DCDuring (talk) 14:51, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

I've not found any clear support, but lots of conjecture and Billy Joel fans discussing their wikt:aha moment when they heard about Boston's Combat Zone. One fact: Billy Joel gave a concert at the Boston Garden Friday, September 15, 1978, not long before the song was released. Coincidence? I think not — but it isn't proof. DCDuring (talk) 15:13, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Pilgrim

Not sure how to link it, but the Pilgrim was the last name for the Olympia, for which there is a Wikipedia article. The link is http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gordon%27s_Olympia_Theatre_%28Boston%29, if someone could link that to "the Pilgrim Theater" reference in this "Combat Zone Boston" article. EyePhoenix (talk) 21:56, 12 January 2013 (UTC)

Good catch, thanks! I took it one step further and set up The Pilgrim Theater to redirect to Gordon's Olympia Theatre (Boston), so that anyone searching Wikipedia for information about the Pilgrim will now land at the Olympia article. — FeRD_NYC (talk) 02:56, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Articles by Jean Cole in the Record American

Does anyone know if the newspaper articles mentioned in the first paragraph are available online? They might be available through GenealogyBank.com but I don't want to pay to read them. --Rosekelleher (talk) 16:48, 12 December 2014 (UTC)

Note, Jean Cole was a notable woman reporter who covered the Boston Strangler murders (and came up with that name for him) for the Record American. So the claim that she popularized the name "Combat Zone" is perfectly plausible, it just needs a citation. --Rosekelleher (talk) 17:27, 29 January 2015 (UTC)

Found citation in a book. The book says it was the Boston Daily Record, not the Boston Record-American, and mentions Jean Cole and two other reporters, Al Salie and Frank Thompson. I'm assuming the others aren't mentioned because Jean Cole was the most famous of the three, and/or did most of the writing. --Rosekelleher (talk) 14:43, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

Care must be taken when saying someone wrote for the Daily Record newspaper “in the 1960s.” That’s because the morning Daily Record only existed in that decade for a year and 9 months, merging with the evening Boston American, Hearst’s other Boston paper, on October 2 1961 to form the “all-day” Record-American. 96.237.184.133 (talk) 21:54, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Liberty Tree Park

The current wording makes it sound like the whole Combat Zone was renamed Liberty Tree Park. According to this article, however, Liberty Tree Park was a small park built within the Combat Zone, near the site of the original Liberty Tree. I'm going to rephrase that passage, if there are no objections, which I guess there won't be, since I seem to be talking to myself. --Rosekelleher (talk) 22:17, 14 December 2014 (UTC)

• Okay, I see (according to Giorlandino's paper) they did try to rename the whole zone, and building the little park was part of that. --Rosekelleher (talk) 02:44, 17 December 2014 (UTC)

Good Article status

I'd like to nominate this article for Good Article status at some point. In preparation for that, I'm going to comment out (not delete) a few statements that don't have inline citations, or for which the citations are weak.

It would be great to have some help/feedback. I hope I haven't driven other editors away with my obsessive editing. @Daniel C. Boyer, Prosfilaes, DCDuring, Dubhdara, M2545, and DocWatson42: --Rosekelleher (talk) 16:23, 30 January 2015 (UTC)

FYI, I managed to get a copy of that Herald-American article, and it supports what's been written about Barney Frank's proposal, but it doesn't say anything about George Romney. So, still looking for a reliable source for the claim that Romney supported the idea. --Rosekelleher (talk) 20:04, 1 February 2015 (UTC)

Fresh eyes needed

I've gotten to the point where I can't read this article anymore, and any editing I do will probably just make it worse. My sense is that it's still a mess, but I've lost all objectivity. The edit history is a perfect illustration of how NOT to write a Wikipedia article. Two lessons learned: (1) Please, people, don't write an article from off the top of your head and leave it there without inline citations. And (2) if someone else does that, don't treat their prose and overall structure as sacrosanct, timidly creeping around adding citations here and there, a snippet of text here and there, but afraid to delete anything or make any major changes. You'll end up with an awkwardly worded patchwork of facts, and a bloated reference list. --Rosekelleher (talk) 12:47, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

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Reviewed and reverted. Not cyberbot's fault, the original link had been flagged with Template:Dead link, but it is in fact alive and well, and has no need for archive-linking. Removed both the archive link and the dead-link flag. -- FeRD_NYC (talk) 18:15, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

4,655 views on November 22

Just happened to look at the traffic stats and see a huge spike. Anyone know why? Just curious. Rosekelleher (talk) 20:07, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

It seems to be related to Fallout 4 (did a date range search on google). So all those gamers got a little education in Boston history, heh. Rosekelleher (talk) 20:54, 16 December 2015 (UTC)

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Prostitution vs. sex work

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