Talk:Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata

article

We might have to write a separate article on the crisis as it unfolds, because the crisis section is growing to be larger than the rest of the article...

Some Gimnasia fans who are not ashamed of who they are: Somo la 22 (Swahili)

Excellent

Yeah. NPOV... elpincha 03:19, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Are you for a restoration+shortening of the deleted crisis text? --Mariano(t/c) 11:44, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

An article on GELP without any reference to the very deep crisis Gimnasia is in right now (Colo Colo, player exodus, 7-0, the strange second half v. Boca, the threats, Defensor, Santos, Palermo x4) is kinda unrealistic. But it seems some guys need to deny reality in order to survive, so I don't know...

Oh darn it. Yes. elpincha 12:22, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps some of it, specially regarding the Muñoz incident, could be placed at Muñoz's page instead. --Mariano(t/c) 20:11, 26 March 2007 (UTC)

Lede

I like the new lede (Jun 30, 2007) very much, far better than the old one that mentioned the basketball team. It deprives Gimnasia of a mention to their only championships, and shows the level of English skills that one can expect from triperos. elpincha 14:42, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

About the citation need

In the part of Volleyball, its required a citation. I found the information in the official site of GELP, but i don't know how to make the citation or reference, and the page it doesn't have a direct link. So you can find the info needed in the official site of GELP, in the part of history, Volleyball (Historia, Vóley).

If you put the website address in here it can be added to the article for you. ♦Tangerines♦·Talk 01:50, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

I found a third party source in English so added that. ♦Tangerines♦·Talk 02:08, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

http://dbscripts.metrovoley.org.ar/fmv2007/site/Home/main.php?target=Institucional In this link it says that Gimnasia was one of the nine clubs that were members of the federation. It's also the official site of the Volleyball Federation, but it's in spanish.

Revision and new links

I believe the "crisis" section has grown out of proportion for this page. There is already a linked section on "History of Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata", as well as a "Muñoz" page, to discuss these topics in more detail. There are other interesting things that could be included in this page, which were also "crisis" in their time, e.g. the one leading to the so-called "Arriba Gimnasia" movement. I suggest we bring some balance to this page, or provide some "trivia" at the end. Encyclopedic entries about football teams should not be bloated by minutia which happen to be fresher in people's memories. I do not want to start a silly Gimnasia/Estudiantes argument in doing these revisions, but it's evident from the discussion page that rivalry is tainting the content of this entry. I would like to get some input on this before doing any further revisions. Nordisk Varg Nordisk varg (talk) 20:08, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest rewriting the "Recent crisis" section to bring it in line with the version in Spanish of this page, which is, in my view, much better focused. Please, have a look at that section and let me know if you agree. Nordisk varg (talk) 20:29, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

About the last question: maybe formatting, but the information should remain. The Spanish language article ignores the recent crisis completely. What we have here is a club that disgraced Argentine football with actions so foul that they do deserve a mention. The fact that their rivals won the tournament on top of Gimnasia's egregious match-fixing is worthy of mention. elpincha (talk) 11:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

I agree of the fact of mention the crisis, but its not worthy of mention at all, that Estudiantes won the tournament. It's Gimnasia's Article, not Estudiantes's. If you want to put it on the Estudiantes's article that would be fine, but not in ours. We are not hiding anything, the thing is that there is an article about Gimnasia's History, so we should not repeat more than once the same things, and in Gimnasia's article there are also links to estudiantes and the tournament that estudiantes won. I think that we should get translate the spanish version, wich is a "good article", and then thinking in what we can add to it.--Tincho gelp (talk) 14:08, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

You know what? I agree. Do you think second-place finishes should be mentioned in so many different places? (I do, but for all the wrong reasons :-)

Please provide some input and I'll try to make the article better within my limited powers.elpincha (talk) 15:35, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Shield

Is there any posibility of finding images of the old shields to ilustrate the changes? I think the minor changes in the inscription occurred at the same time that the blue frame changed, extending from inside the circle wich enclosures the inscription to outside, and then reverting to just the interior of the circle, like actually. Hasn't the helmet changed also? And I thought the first shield mentioned in the article (if it is the one I'm thinking) was never really used as such, it remained just as a primary design. Could anyone give some orientation on this points? Excellent article, anyway. Thanks a lot. Ipsumesse (talk) 17:58, 21 January 2009 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

I am failing this article for GAN because the article is severely lacking in references. There are entire sections that have not a single reference. Please ensure that this article is more well-referenced. Also, several sections exist that appear to be proseline (WP:PROSELINE). Please resolve this, also. Gary King (talk) 01:37, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for reviewing Gimnasia's article. We added more references all along the article. Bye --Tincho gelp (talk) 03:27, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

It is better now, but it is still far from sufficient. Please continue adding references, and when you feel it is ready for a renomination, then add it back to WP:GAN. Thanks! Gary King (talk) 03:36, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata/GA2. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

References

I think there are serious problems with the refs, so I will only address this for now:

1. CR1 (current ref 1): what makes those reliable sources. Looks like a fan site to me. (Fixed)
2. CR4: another fan site; a blog too.(Fixed)
3. CR2, 6, 17, 21-22, 24-29, 38, 46-47, 57, 81-83, 88-93, 97-98, 100-101: All from RSSSF, and that looks rather like a self-published site.
4. CR5, 8, 11-12(Fixed) , 16, 20: From Geocities, and just about anything hosted on Geocities cannot be a reliable source.
5. CR10 and 52: What exactly is Agencia Nova. Looking at the main page (and using my poor Spanish skills), it looks rather tabloidish. (I think these two are OK, but if not, i also think that they are not necessary.)-Tincho GELP (talk) 15:05, 14 March 2009 (UTC)
6. CR19: another self-published site. (Fixed)
7. CR31: a blog. (Fixed)

There's a ton more, but I've stopped after 50 refs. Unless all this is fixed up in a big hurry, I can't even do a proper review.

Noble Story (talk • contributions) 10:44, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi. Well, in the spanish wikipedia they trusted us for those references. For the RSSSF, it's quite a good reliable source, because is not from gimnasia only, and there are people especialized about statistics. Agencia Nova is an online newspaper, so I think is reliable too. But if you thinks that they are not reliable, I'll try to find others. I'll start looking for those references, but anyways, I'd like if you can complete your review, to have a general idea of what is missing or wrong. Bye. --Tincho GELP (talk) 13:41, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to add that if you take away all those refs I've listed above, a lot of the remainder are from the team site, which means there's a serious lack of secondary sources.

Also, I think the FAC over at the Spanish wiki didn't say anything about the refs (which is very unfortunate, because they should have). Anyway, I'll post more in the next day or so. Meanwhile, you should probably replace some of those refs. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:59, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

The facts that there are a lot of Gimnasia.org.ar's references is because there are not many articles in the internet about gimnasia. I mean, there are not seriously ones. The only ones are not trusted in wikipedia because are fan site, so I have to rely on the official site. I'm going to change first the geocities and blogs links. And is also difficult to find sources about gimnasia before 1995, because the newspaper's data base is from that year forward. --Tincho GELP (talk) 14:13, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi again. A friend of mine, add some more references from books. Take a look again and then tell us if it's still necessary more corrections about references. --Tincho GELP (talk) 23:49, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

About RSSSF: The introduction about the group says it "was originally founded as NERSSSF (for Northern European Rec.Sport.Soccer Statistics Foundation) in January 1994 by three regular contributors to the rec.sport.soccer newsgroup". Reliable sources are all about the amount of checking of the info, and having an independent site run by fans in an online newsgroup will not have a factchecking. I just think it cannot be taken as a reliable source. You can try WP:RSN if you want, but I think most would be inclined to agree with me.

Now, replacing the other unreliable sources with a print ref is better (although CR44, 92, 99 still need to be replaced). But more:

• What makes the site eldia.com a reliable source? (unique newspaper of the city until 1992, now are three) --Elnegrojose (talk) 16:37, 15 March 2009 (UTC)
• CR103 is a blog
• What makes universofutbol.com a reliable source?
• Also, CR72, 83, and 145 are dead. CR52, 119, and and these 2 external links([1], [2]) redirect to the main page, and have no article. The site for CR 87 and 93 won't load.

Again, as I said, I don't want to move onto other parts of the article because its useless to review other parts unless the refs are fixed, because right now they are not satisfying GA criteria at all. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 12:40, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi again! Ok, let see. First of all, the newspaper from La Plata I think that are totally reliable sources. These are: Diario El Día, Diario Hoy, Diario Diagonales. Also, the argentinian ones like Clarín, Olé and La Nación. Secondly, I saw that a Featured Article like Chelsea F.C. uses as reference the RSSSF. We are trying to keep on your demanding of changes. I hope this finish with the article categorized like a "good article". To show you, that we don't try to fool anyone with those references here are the uses of those pages in the spanish wikipedia:

• RSSSF
• eldia.com.ar
• eldia.com
• universofutbol.com --Tincho GELP (talk) 20:53, 15 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, better. I still am not happy about RSSSF. I've opened up a question about it at WP:RSN, you can add something about it if you want. But you still need to replace links that don't work: CR51, 71, 116 and 142. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:40, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

All right then. I fixed de CR51 and 71. The 116 works, i don't see the problem, the same with the CR142. But in the CR142 it was missing a part of the article, so I included a new reference to the next page of the newspaper CR143. Bye --Tincho GELP (talk) 02:17, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

General

Well, if you want something more to chew on: You say this article is about a sports club, but all I see is an article about their soccer team, with a little bit added on at the end about a couple other sports. The article about the soccer team really needs to be split of into a separate article. At the very least, this has way too much undue weight. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:52, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, yeah. It's about an sports club, but the more important sport in the club is football. But if you think we have to split it, there is no problem. The thing is that we'll have to change almost everything in the article (erase a lot of text, tidy up, and make another article). Let me know if you're completely sure about this, and then i'll make those changes. Meanwhile i'll be thinking how to do it. --Tincho GELP (talk) 14:03, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi again, I have to be honest. I think that is not necessary split the article. Why? Because, as I said above, the Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata is an sport club, but is recognized by its football team, and this is because is the sport that the club decide to give more budget, and the one that all the associates want to have success in. That's wahy we concentrated in put more info about the football than other activities. The same would happen in every football club in argentina, because they practice a lot of sports, one example of this is Boca Juniors. If it's ok, we (me and the other editor) want to know if you can make us a list with all the changes that you think are necessary. This petition is because when we fix something, you have other things that are wrong and we get kind of frustrated. Hope you understand. Bye --Tincho GELP (talk) 19:40, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment: Noble story has an important point. Although Gimnasia focuses mainly on football, your presentation of the article is that of a sports club. A sports club article should mention all of its sports in a fairly equal manner, and then create separate articles dedicated to the specific areas of each club. For this to pass as a sports article, it needs that balance. If you wanted to pass a football article, on the other hand, you should name this new article along the lines of Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata (football), and solely focus on the football team of the club. To be really honest with you, I would fail this article as a GA due to the undue weight.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 22:53, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Pero es un club de fútbol que tiene otros deportes, minoritarios y que no merecen la misma importancia, ni se le dedica el mismo espacio ni el mismo presupuesto que al deporte principal. Sería darle una importancia destacada a otras actividades minoritarias, sería desbalancear el artículo. Actualmente representa la realidad de la historia del club. El basket convoca a 300 personas todas las semanas y se lleva el 2 % del presupeusto, hay que darle la misma importancia al fútbol que se lleva el 85 % del presupuesto y que lleva cada fin de semana 20 mil personas? o al voley? es el fútbol el que financia los demás deportes, que son anexos dentro del club. Alguien podría traducir esto por favor? Mis disculpas por no hablar inglés. --Elnegrojose (talk) 23:44, 17 March 2009 (UTC)

Translation of elnegrojose: But it is a football club that has other sports, minority and do not deserve equal weight, nor was he engaged in the same place or the same budget that the main sport. Giving an importance assigned to other minority would unbalance the article. Currently represents the reality of history. The basketball calls 300 people every week and takes 2% of the budget: Do we have to give equal importance to football that is 85% of the budget and takes every weekend 20 thousand people? or volleyball? It's football which finances other sports, which are annexed into the club. Someone could translate this please? My apologies for not speaking English.

My opinion: The club is major reconognized as a football team, so I think we should leave this article as it's and then if someone wants to describe deeply, for example, the basketball used Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima (Basketball). As the Real Madrid C.F., that is a sports club because they practice football and basketball professionally. If not, we can used a little trick: we can change the introduction to "is a football club, that also practice other sports", so it's not wrong anymore. --Tincho GELP (talk) 00:15, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment: You mention the Real Madrid C.F. article, and you are right in saying that it is a sports club. Yet, the article focuses on their football, not basketball. There is a separate article for the basketball: Real Madrid Baloncesto. You are correct in saying that the article would improve if it changed to "is a football club," and focused all of the article on the football club. Yet, that would erase a lot of content that is important for an encyclopedia. There are various options that can be taken on this matter. One, you could move the information on the other sports into stubs or start-class articles, and focus the article on the football club. OR, you could focus this article on the sports club, and balance it accordingly. It's up to the editors of the article, however. If neither of these two things are done, then this article would not be fit for GA (Under my view, of course).--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 00:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm an in agreement with both editors. I do think now that balancing them would be giving undue weight. However, if this article is going to be about the football team, then it needs to be about only that. As recommended by Marshal, the separate sports should probably be split off into their own articles, if they are notable. I also agree that "If neither of these two things are done, then this article would not be fit for GA". Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:03, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I started the article Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata (Sports Club). --Tincho GELP (talk) 01:06, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Great. The new article you started lacks the crucial information on football, but that's a separate story. I believe that after the introduction to this football article on Gimnasia is improved to near-perfection, then that could be used as the small section that would discuss football on the new article you created.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Indeed. And now that the big issues are done, I'll be sinking my teeth into the meat of the article. A full review should be up within the next 24 hours. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 01:10, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Great! One thing, some things will be repeated in both articles, but i think this is not a problem. Now the article History of Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata (Football) is almost the same of this one. Only with some parts of the history that there are not included in this one. So, if you see that is not necessary to have both, tell me and i'll copy the parts that are missing. --Tincho GELP (talk) 01:27, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

I think that it is good to keep a separate article for the history section. In the long-run it will prove to come in handy as it will prevent the main football article from getting "fat."--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:36, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Non-lead reviewer reviews

Records and curiosities

This section reads more like a trivia section. In fact, I believe that it is nothing more than a trivia section, and such things should be included inside the history section. This should be fixed as soon as possible. Read Wikipedia:Trivia sections for more information.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Fixed. --Tincho GELP (talk) 03:05, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

es icon

Several of the references/footnotes are in Spanish. This is the English Wikipedia, and by all means English sources should have at least a good amount of usage in the article. However, I cannot easily see this due to the lack of an (in Spanish), ((es icon)) (Change the parentheses "()" for the brackets "{}"). This is really not something that would "kill" the article for the GA review, but I doubt it will be able to get past a GA (assuming it will pass) if this is not fixed. Also, it would be a touch of courtesy if you did this as not everybody can read Spanish, and the lead reviewer has to read the sources that he can in order to verify the information (which is a hard job). Remember that the easier you make the job for the lead reviewer, the easier it will be for him to give you suggestions and the faster this article will achieve a GA status.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:34, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

But I used the line "|language=Spanish", in the reference. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Tincho GELP (talk • contribs) 02:59, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Shield

You have the shield of Lanus that was shown at the beginning of the article in the shield section. I think that it is a tad pointless to include it there since, obviously, the reader of the article can already see the shield at the start of the article. The historical shield is important to include, however. Additionally, the current shield of Gimnasia is under a non-free use rationale, and including it twice might be breaking that rationale. A good word description of the changes made to the original shield should be enough.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:47, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Erased the actual shield of the Shield section. --Tincho GELP (talk) 03:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Pictures

The picture of Carlos Danton has no important note to it. Why is he pictured? If you look at the description from its page, you'll see that it was due to his fast goal. This information on his goal should be on his picture description in this article.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

In the same part, three pictures are on the right, and my computer screen makes them seem all stacked together. This is not really much of a GA problem but rather a style problem, but it would be nice if you could move one of them (perhaps the "Terremoto" one) to the left.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Done, I also moved the image of Danton Seppaquercia to another part of the article. This was because your point about the "records" section. --Tincho GELP (talk) 03:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Great. The article looks better every time I look at it. I have other minor suggestions, but will wait for the main review to be set in order to address them.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 03:46, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Lead

Per Wikipedia:Lead section, the lead section of this article should be improved. The lead should include a summary of the important information presented throughout the article. Take a look at the Peru national football team and the Scotland national football team articles, mainly their leads. When you read the lead, you'll be able to know a summary of the "life" of these teams. If written well enough, it should even give the reader the curiosity to continue reading in order to find out more about the team. This is an important part of the GA process, and should be met as soon as possible.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 01:58, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Excellent! Thanks for the help in this section. Now, it's time to wait for the review of Noble Story. --Tincho GELP (talk) 19:19, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Review 1

Lead

Since 2008, Gimnasia can only play in its stadium for matches of low convocatory, using as home, for those of high convocatory, the municipal Ciudad de La Plata stadium.

"Convocatory" is not really used very often. Want to try a more common word? A more common word? I really don't know wich are common, i'm Argentine. Could it be "concurrency"? Help me with those uncommons words please. --Tincho GELP (talk) 17:22, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Can you tell me what you are trying to say by convocatory? Then I can suggest another word. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Convocatory as the quantity of people that goes to those matches. So high convocatory, a lot of people goes to that match. In spanish we use "convocatoria" or "concurrencia". --Tincho GELP (talk) 16:49, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Then you should try "large attendance" and "small attendance". Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

History

The "Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata" was founded on June 3, 1887 as a civil association, and thus is the oldest surviving football club in the whole of South America

"the whole of" isn't really necessary.

And that's why it's the oldest club participating in the Argentine Football League.

Terribly informal. I think I fixed this problem.

On June 3, 1887 after a meeting carried out in the Sala Comercial (located on the street 7, between 46 and 47) of the city of La Plata, there was founded the Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima, as a social and sports organization

Space needed between this sentence and the previous. Also, you mentioned the fully date before, no need to do it here. And, why do you need "located on the street 7, between 46 and 47"? How relevant is that? Also, I think it would be better ", Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima was founded as a social and sports organization".

The above mentioned meeting, or rather, assembly, it was presided by Saturnino Perdriel (the one who was then the first president of the club) and it relied on the presence of more than 50 founding associates.

No need for "above mentioned" or "or rather, assembly". Also, why did it "rely" on the presence of 50 associates? Is there a better word to use?

Its foundation came barely five years after the creation of the City of La Plata in 1882.

Needs a ref.

The institution changed name a few times: from April to December 1897 it was called a "Club de Esgrima" due to the fact that fencing was the only activity practised at that moment. On December 17, 1897 it returned to its original name: "Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima". From July 1952 to September 30, 1955, the club was named "Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima de Eva Perón", due to the fact that the city of La Plata itself had been renamed "Eva Perón" in 1952, after Eva Perón's death. The city returned to its previous name during the government of the "Liberating Revolution", and so did the club. However, it remained unduly identified legally as "Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima de La Plata", a mistake that was corrected on August 7, 1964 after the new statute was approved.

You should provide a translation of the Spanish names.

Fixed the entire section. --Tincho GELP (talk) 15:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Amateur era (1891–1930)

Gimnasia had to abandon its original field at the corner of 13th and 71st streets, in 1905; at that time, it chose to discontinue the practice of football and to devote the club mainly to social activities.

Why did have to abandon the field? And why do you have to include the street number? I don't know why, the fact is that they have to abandon it. The street numbers are essential in order not to confused with the actual stadium of the club.--Tincho GELP (talk) 15:51, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You need to say why they abandonded it, as it's natural to wonder why. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

In that year, Gimnasia obtained two cups; "Competencia Adolfo J. Bullrich Cup" and "Campeonato Intermedia Cup".

Mind providing an English translation?

The match took place at the Estudiantes de La Plata' field (1st and 57th streets), where Gimnasia y Esgrima won 1–0.

Why the address? (address eliminated)

On April 27, 1924 the new stadium was inaugurated, located in La Plata's main park ("El Bosque", the Forest) at the intersection of 60th avenue and 118th street; it was named Estadio Juan Carlos Zerillo.

Again, why address? (address eliminated)

Professional era (1931–2008)

El Expreso of 1933

In the latter game, the referee Rojo Miró favoured so blatantly San Lorenzo that the Gimnasia players famously refused to continue with the charade, and "went on strike." They simply sat on the field, while San Lorenzo scored unopposedly, before the referee terminated the game with a 7–1 outcome

"favoured so blatantly" is very POV. Also, "simply" is very informal. eliminated the "so blatantly", but it was well referenced, i think it wasn't a point of view. --Tincho GELP (talk) 17:50, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Governor Alende Cup (1960)

It was called "Gobernador de la Provincia de Buenos Aires Dr. Oscar Alende Cup", in honoring the governor Oscar Alende.

Why don't you actually state that the cup means "Governor of Buenos Aires Dr. Oscar Alende Cup"?

The cup was an international quadrangular

"guadrangular" is not used very often. Another term, maybe? I don't know other word to describe it. --Tincho GELP (talk) 18:05, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

"Tournament"? "Round-robin"? Take your pick. Also, I would suggest you keep a thesaurus handy while you edit. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Gimnasia won both meetings against the Uruguayan teams: 5–2 against Nacional and 1–0 against Peñarol. Estudiantes lost its respective games for 0–1 and 2–5.[39]

In the last match, Gimnasia tied with Estudiantes 2–2. On February 13, 1960, Gimnasia was therefore crowned champion of the Gobernador Alende Cup, at the stadium of its archrival, located at the intersection of the 57 & 1 streets of La Plata.

First off, could these short paragraphs be combined? Also "In the last match, Gimnasia tied with Estudiantes 2–2" is a very short sentence. And "therefore" is not needed. Finally, again, why do you need "located at the intersection of the 57 & 1 streets of La Plata."

La Barredora (1970)

After almost a decade alternating good and bad performances, the championships organized by the Asociación del Fútbol Argentino (AFA) were restructured.

It should be " alternating between good and bad performances". Also, who was alternating. It seems as if the AFA was.

The result was the creation of two championships: the "Metropolitano", played by teams affiliated directly to the AFA (and divided in two zones), and the "Nacional", played by the teams placed in the top positions of the "Metropolitano", in addition to teams from the leagues of the Argentine interior. The rest of the teams played the "Promocional" and "Reclasificatorio" cups.

Translations?

In the first year, 1967, Gimnasia y Esgrima was champion of the "Promocional" tournament.

Paragraphs should not be only one sentence long.

and qualified to the "Nacional" semifinal against Rosario Central

"to" -> "for".

At that time, a conflict developed between the players and the club's administration on a disagreement about performance remuneration.

I think "performance remuneration" would be better termed "the salary paid to the players".

The typical eleven in that remarkable team were: Hugo Orlando Gatti; Ricardo Rezza, José Bernabé Leonardi, José Masnik, Roberto Zywica, Roberto Gonzalo; Héctor Pignani, José Santiago, Delio Onnis, José Néstor Meija, Jorge Castiglia. José Varacka was the coach.

"remarkable team" is very POV. Also, maybe "typical eleven in" -> "starting eleven for".

Section Fixed. --Tincho GELP (talk) 17:45, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

The Return to First Division (1984)

Gimnasia has the record for the fastest goal in the Argentine league: Carlos Dantón Seppaquercia scored against Huracán after five seconds, on March 20, 1979.

How is this really relevant to the team's history? Gimnasia doesn't have the record, the player does. I eliminated the sentence but leave the photo.--Tincho GELP (talk) 16:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

But after a bad campaign, Gimnasia y Esgrima is relegated to Primera "B" in 1979.

"is" -> "was"

In 1984 Gimnasia y Esgrima obtained the third place in the overall table, and thus qualified to dispute an Octogonal for the second promotion to First Division.

Again, replace "octogonal" with a better word.

See above. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

The other teams in the octogonal were Racing Club, Argentino de Rosario, Club Atlético Tigre, Defensores de Belgrano, Club Atlético Lanús, Nueva Chicago, and Deportivo Morón.

Is this really necessary to know all the other teams? Well, i think is good to know the opponents.--Tincho GELP (talk) 16:25, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Considering they didn't play them, it's not really relevant. Therefore, no. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Copa Centenario de la AFA (1993–94)

The AFA organized in 1993 a cup-style (elimination) tournament

Try: "In 1993, The AFA organized..."

with Gimnasia having home court advantage

Shouldn't it be "home field advantage"?

River's goal was scored by Villalba.

Is this needed? (eliminated)

After winning this cup, Gimnasia was invited to participate on the Sanwa Bank Cup in 1994

And the result was...?

Section fixed. --Tincho GELP (talk) 16:32, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

From Griguol to Troglio (1994–2007)

repeating the performance in 1996 and 1998.

"repeating" -> "and repeated"

Also took second place in 2002 (coached by Ramaciotti).

This is an incomplete sentence. (I changed a little bit this sentence)--Tincho GELP (talk) 16:35, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

although he was confirmed as Gimnasia's President by the club's board.

Why was he confirmed? He was already president. eliminated

Due to Gimnasia's physical play in the second leg of the quarter finals in Argentina, Argentine Football Association's president Julio Grondona wrote a personal letter to the president of the ANFP (the Chilean football federation)

Wikilink for ANFP? And you don't need to wikilink Argentine Football Association, since you already did before.

The pending second half against Boca Juniors was played on November 8, 2006.

What? What about the first half? This is talking about something, yet you're missing the first part.The first half of that match is commented in the previous paragragh. It's in chronological order. --Tincho GELP (talk) 16:40, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

La Plata District Attorney Marcelo Romero opened an investigation and cited some players and club officers to testify

"and cited some players and club officers to testify" I have no idea what that means. Paragraph eliminated

2007–08: New management

Gimnasia hired first famed Colombian trainer Francisco Maturana, and then Julio César Falcioni, both with limited success.

Should be "but both had limited success".

In the December 2007 election, Muñoz did not run, and the candidate he supported lost to the opposition. New club president Walter Gisande hired former player Guillermo Sanguinetti as team coach and tried to convince former players, notably Diego Alonso and Guillermo Barros Schelotto, to return to Gimnasia. Only Alonso, who was playing in China, made the leap.

Sanguinetti quit after a string of bad results that left Gimnasia in serious danger of relegation. Under new coach Leonardo Madelón, team results improved markedly, and as of the beginning of the 2009 Clausura tournament, Gimnasia is better positioned to stay in the Primera level.

Ref?

Mayor Pablo Bruera has indicated that the city will let Gimnasia buy or lease some city-owned lands for erecting a sports complex

Should be "the city will alow Gimnasia to buy or lease city-owned lands to erect a sports complex.

Section Fixed. --Tincho GELP (talk) 19:37, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Clásico Platense

The Clásico Platense (La Plata derby) is the nickname given to the match between La Plata's two main football teams: Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata and Estudiantes de La Plata.

Should not have a 1-sentence paragraph.

with an owngoal of Ludovico Pastor.

"of" -> "by".

On the other hand, its worst result was a 7–0 defeat on October 15, 2006.

Whose worst result?

Section fixed.

Presidents

Throughout more than 120 years of history, the Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata has had 55 Presidents, elected individuals who took on the responsibility of steering the Institution.

"Throughout" -> "through". Also, "...55 Presidents, who are elected individuals..."

Mr. Perdriel was a merchant during the first few years of the city of La Plata

Should be only "Perdriel".

Nowadays, the President of Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata is chosen by its associates, by means of general elections that take place every three years.

"Nowadays" -> "Currently"

The current President of Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata is Mr. Walter Gisande, who won the 2007 elections over Mr. Gabriel Pellegrino for 16 votes.

"for" -> "by". And again, no need for Mr.

Management board 2007-2010

Is this a ref for the following list? I put an introductory sentece for the list, and also put a new reference. I think is fine now. right?

Section fixed. --Tincho GELP (talk) 15:19, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Anthem

The official anthem of Gimnasia was intoned by the first time on July 9, 1915 on the occasion of the reception that was given to the delegation of the club River Plate of Uruguay.

Try: The official anthem of Gimnasia

I changed the first line with your advised, but I'm not totally sure if that wa what you want. Anyways, "fixed". --Tincho GELP (talk) 15:10, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Shield

The shield of the Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata is a wreath in which top part is outlined a helmet with a heraldic crest. At the center, on enamel and with the colors of the club (white and navy blue), the club monogram appears in relief. In the top cantons, like a guard, there appear the hilts of a saber and a foil, with their sharp points emerging at lower part of the shield. To the sides of the center a rama of laurels spreads the helmet, for every side.

Try: "The shield of the Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata is a wreath in which, in the top part, a helmet is outlined with a heraldic crest. At the center, on enamel and with the colors of the club (white and navy blue), is the club monogram appears. In the top cantons, like a guard, there appears the hilts of a saber and a foil, with their sharp points emerging in lower part of the shield. To the sides of the center laurels spread around the helmet."

This is the logo in current use, and often displayed on the team's jerseys.

What are you referring to by "this"?

There have been some minor changes introduced in the past few years.

Short sentence. (sentence eliminated )

During Héctor Domínguez's presidency, the abbreviation at the center of the shield was changed, replacing the historical CGE (Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima), for the GELP (Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata), modification that persisted during the mandates of Gliemmo and Muñoz.

Try: "the abbreviation CGE (Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima) at the center of the shield was replaced by GELP (Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata)."

Fixed all the items in this section. --Tincho GELP (talk) 15:07, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Kit

Official uniform ("camiseta titular"): Why do you need a Spanish translation?

In the first years of the institution, the colors adopted were white and light blue, seeking of this form to highlight the fact that it was an Argentine club. The first vest used by the team had vertical white and light blue stripes.

Ref? And "of this form" is unnecessary.

Later, in 1905, it was decided to change the colors to make it distinct from Racing Club. This resulted in a vest with vertical stripes of white and navy-blue color.

"Later" is unnecessary. And ref?

Finally, from 1910, the design was modified,

"from" -> "in".

The following table details chronologically the providing companies of apparel and the sponsors that it has had Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata from the years 1980 and 1990 respectively: that it has had Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata from the years 1980 and 1990 respectively:

How about: "The following table details the companies that provided the team's apparel, and sponsored the team, from the years 1980 and 1990 respectively:"

During the year 2009, the apparel of Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata will be provided by the company "Kappa", the one who will provide from uniform sports up to the extra-sports clothes. In turn, jersey will be supported by the company "La Nueva Seguros", of which it will take the name written in the principal band.

Try: "the apparel of Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata will be provided by Kappa, and jerseys by La Nueva Seguros."

Fix all items of this section. --Tincho GELP (talk) 14:56, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Supporters

Within the city of La Plata and its environs, Gimnasia's fan base used to be identified with the working class, in contrast with the mostly middle class Estudiantes' constituency. This characterization is no longer true. Most of Gimnasia y Esgrima fans are from the Greater La Plata area.

The fans' collective name for itself is "La 22", after 22nd street in La Plata where many famous fans lived, notably Marcelo Amuchástegui. Known as Loco Fierro, Amuchástegui was famous for his exploits, such as hanging a 100-meter Gimnasia flag in the Bombonera stadium. He was shot to death by Rosario police in a murky episode on May 28, 1991, allegedly during an armed robbery.

Ref?

As it is the case with some other clubs in the Argentine First Division, the fans celebrate with a large party and outside gathering the "Worldwide Day of Gimnasia's Fans" on each December 10.

Try: As is the case with other clubs in the Argentine First Division, the fans celebrate the "Worldwide Day of Gimnasia's Fans" on December 10 with a large party and outside gathering."

Many other Argentine clubs also called "Gimnasia y Esgrima" adopted later the nicknames of "El Lobo" after the La Plata team.

This sentence doesn't make any sense. Sentence eliminated

Another nickname, mensanas, derives from the Latin motto used in the shield: Mens sana in corpore sano (a healthy mind in a healthy body).

You shouldn't have 1-sentence paragraphs.

Yet, still today, Gimnasia is often greeted into the stadia by its fans with a resounding "Tripa corazón!"

"Yet, still today, Gimnasia is often greeted into the stadia by its fans" -> "however, Gimnasia is still often greeted by its fans"

Section Fixed --Tincho GELP (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Stadium

on the occasion of the last game of the Clausura 2008 championship,

Try: "in the last game of the Clausure 2008 championship"

Now it has a capacity of 24,544.

Who "it" is referring to is unclear here. Also, a ref?

Section Fixed --Tincho GELP (talk) 16:08, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Club statistics

You basically need refs here for every item in the list that is not cited, except for maybe "Seasons in Primera División: 69" and "Seasons in Segunda División".

Players

Throughout its 121 years of history, they were more than 800 the Football players of the Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata that they have dressed the vest of the first team.

Try: "In its 121-year history, the team has had more than 800 players play for their first team."

Jorge San Esteban, nowadays in activity, with more than 400 disputed meetings is the one who more times illuminated the vest albiazul. In turn, Arturo Naón with 95 goals in 97 meetings is the maximum scorer of the history of the club.

Didn't you already state this in the previous section? Sentences eliminated

The Asociación del Fútbol Argentino allows to the soccer teams of Argentina to have in its squads a maximum of four foreign football players; Gimnasia y Esgrima historically has formed its squads with football players of the local football but also with foreigners, being the Uruguayans who prevail in the preferences, with 49 football players.

First off, a ref? Second, try: "The AFA allowed soccer team to have a maximum of four foreign football players; Gimnasia y Esgrima has historically formed its squads with a mixture of local and foreign players." Changed the sentenced, the ref is still missing.

From its low divisions they have arisen a great quantity of football players of national and international renown, as being Guillermo and Gustavo Barros Schelotto, Mariano Messera, Lucas Lobos, Roberto "Pampa" Sosa, Andrés Guglielminpietro, Sebastián Romero, Lucas Licht and Leandro Cufré, among others.

Ref?

List of famous players On what basis do you determine if they are famous?(section eliminated)

Section Fixed--Tincho GELP (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Managers

The first one was Emérico Hirschl, a Hungarian who trained the team between 1932 and 1934.

Some coaches who were in the memory of the club were Nito Veiga (who achieved promotion in 1984), Roberto Perfumo (coach in the final of the Centenary Cup), Carlos Timoteo Griguol (who leads the team in three stages, amounting to ten years) and former footballer Pedro Troglio.

Ref? Also, try: "Several prominent coaches for the team have been Nito Veiga (who led the team to promotion in 1984), Roberto Perfumo (who was coach in the final of the Centenary Cup), Carlos Timoteo Griguol (who led the team for ten years) and former footballer Pedro Troglio."

Achievements

• Copa Competencia Adolfo J. Bullrich (1): 1915
• Copa Campeonato Intermedia (1): 1915
• Copa Centenario de la AFA (1): 1994
• Runners-up (1): 1946
• Copa Amistad (2): 1977 and 2006
• Cuadrangular de Asunción (1): 1975
• Second place of Sanwa Bank Cup (1): 1994

These items need a ref.

General

I am about 2 inches away from failing this outright. This article needs so much work. The prose is just, simply, bad. Plus, the history section is unbalanced and inadequate. There's too much emphasis on recent events. Plus, you just cherry-pick out some years to cover, and leave the out whole swaths of years unmentioned. Like I said, a ton of work, and perhaps you realize why I took so long to review. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 07:41, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi. About the history section, we have some comments in other languages that it's not recommended put all the history. And they recommended us to make an history article, and that's why this is not complete. About the prose, it can be as we are not English native speakers. Anyways, as you can see, we almost get everything you asked for.

Sections already corrected: History introduction, El Expreso, La Barredora, Copa Centenario de la AFA, 2007–08: New management, Clásico Platense, Presidents, Anthem, Shield, Kit, Supporters, Stadium, Club statistics, Players, Managers, Achievements.--Tincho GELP (talk) 17:46, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

You should not provide an in-depth report of all 100+ seasons, but you can't just skip over years, and pick only about 5. That's undue weight, and it's uncomprehensive. In short, there needs to be a summary for the missing years. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 13:45, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Comment: The history section is the part that really does need the most work on. As it stands right now, I believe that it is just barely good enough to pass the GA review; but if Noble Story failed it due to the history section, he would have some degree of justification. For me, it's good enough to be an everyday useful information source, but if you are planning on taking this into a Featured Article you'll need to do a better job at summarizing all of the information on the club's history, not simply the "historically outstanding" years of the club.--[|!*//MarshalN20\\*!|] (talk) 14:32, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, no, actually, it's still not very good. The prose still needs a lot, a lot of work. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 00:35, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Hi again. i put in the items that i have doubts, could you check them? Bye--Tincho GELP (talk) 19:38, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

Hello. I added a new section in the history part of the article. It's about the 1934-1960 period. Is that enough? --Tincho GELP (talk) 20:23, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

So... we've corrected everything you tell us to correct. I added the irregular performances section to the history part, in order to not only have the best years of the club. Waiting for new recommendation or the final review of the article (passed or failed). Bye --Tincho GELP (talk) 01:46, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Final words

After making the first sweep of comments, I went back and re-read the improved version of the article. Yes, it's a lot better. However, I am going to fail this. My apologies, but it still needs a major rewrite of the prose. I would have to rewrite almost every sentence for you. I would strongly suggest, after this, that you request a peer review, with a special focus on copyediting. Thanks for your hard work so far. Noble Story (talk • contributions) 11:16, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Merger proposal

I propose that Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata (sports club) be merged into Club de Gimnasia y Esgrima La Plata. It is the result of an improper cut-and-paste operation done long ago. The two pages have been separately edited for years, and so will require a lot of judicious editing to combine them. Chris the speller ^yack 20:29, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The proposal makes sense. The rationale for the split (back in the day — when a length of 64K would prompt warnings) was to provide separate articles for the sports club and the football side so that the other disciplines got adequate space. With the 64K issue gone for good, maybe the time has come for a merge. elpincha (talk) 16:09, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree with your suggestion. Fma12 (talk) 22:05, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

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General club or Football club?

Most European multi clubs have split articles for every sport. Is weird for a reader who find a link in a men's or women's volleyball player to be taken to the same article about a men's football team, that has a little section about "other sports". --Osplace 14:58, 18 July 2016 (UTC)

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Place of death

Add place of death 86.11.177.155 (talk) 12:36, 18 August 2022 (UTC)