Talk:Chiesa Vecchia, Macugnaga

Educational Project Page

This page is part of an Educational Project by students of LIUC, Italy, with a course page at: https://outreachdashboard.wmflabs.org/courses/LIUC_-_Universit%C3%A0_Cattaneo/Digital_Technology_(Autumn_2022) The users of the group are new to the Wikipedia platform and are learning to edit following Wikipedia rules. They are open to any advice on improvements of the page in conformity to Wikipedia requirements and guidelines, and any help useful for the enhancement of the page will be gladly accepted. The student User names are:

• LIUC4Matteo04
• LIUC4Gabriele04
• LIUC4Jan04
• LIUC4Lorenzo04
• LIUC4Ilari04
• LIUC4Pietro04
• LIUC4Giulia04

Limelightangel (talk) 18:30, 14 November 2022 (UTC)

Correction to my user name. It is just LIUC4Ilari04. --LIUC4Ilari04 (talk) 14:00, 17 November 2022 (UTC)

I have corrected LIUC4Ilari04 username and I have deleted Luisliuc2 username since he is not part of our team. LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 16:13, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Infobox

The page needs a relevant Infobox template. There are a range of Infobox templates for churches,including a general one: Template:Infobox_church and some more specific to types/denominations of church. You may find a more relevant one here: Wikipedia:List_of_infoboxes and/or by looking at the ones used on similar pages. You can see how it has been used on these page by inspecting the markup (Edit). It is not necessary to complete all the fields in this template. There are predefined rules for the content you can add to each field in the template. See the Infobox help at: Help:Infobox Limelightangel (talk) 12:07, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. We are going to look at these links and we will look at the infobox of similar pages to choose the most suitable. LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 15:57, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

I added an infobox to the draft page and decided to use general template for church. Now it only has some few basic information, but while writing more information to the draft page we can fill and update the infobox as well. LIUC4Ilari04 (talk) 15:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Environmental damage

I have added a new section entitled "Atmospheric events" in which I have reported the main weather disasters to which Chiesa Vecchia was subject. I have employed bullet points, later we can evaluate if we are going to keep it like this or if it is better to write a paragraph made up of complete sentences. LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 16:05, 18 November 2022 (UTC)

When using bullet points, I think it is easier for the reader to distinguish the events from each other. In addition, it was good that you put the events in chronological order. --LIUC4Ilari04 (talk) 11:59, 20 November 2022 (UTC)

I believe that is is a paramount part of the work, it helps to comprehend the history of the old church. I like the layout with which we put the informations.LIUC4Gabriele04 (talk) 12:59, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Cemetery

I have added some information about Alexander Taugwalder, an alpinist that is buried at Chiesa Vecchia. I have reported who he was, where he died and how.

I have also write te relation of Taugwalder with Macugnaga and the Chiesa Vecchia. --LIUC4Matteo04 (talk) 15:30, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Do not use this Talk page to simply say what edits have been done. The Page History records this. The talk page is for discussion on the page

I provided fixing my error. LIUC4Lorenzo04 (talk) 14:40, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

Draft review, 21/11/22

• needs an InfoBox, content, summary topic introduction, page structure (sections/sub-sections), map and acceptable images.
• do references to Italian sources need a translation? Check the Help resources.

Limelightangel (talk) 11:04, 21 November 2022 (UTC)

Draft review, 26/11/22

• you will need to add External Links, a See Also section and Categories to your page - see similar pages, and use Help:Category, etc. Understand the different uses of these elements.

• add an introductory summary section, which briefly summarizes what/where the topic is and why it is notable. When you create a summary, you may need to use links out to Macunaga, Monte Rosa, etc. and then delete any subsequent links to them if also used later in the page, See similar pages and use the help resources.

Thank you for the feedback. I have now added the introduction section. --LIUC4Ilari04 (talk) 17:20, 27 November 2022 (UTC)

• the Cemetery images are a good approach. The image captions for these can be improved, either by editing the captions on WikiMedia (if they are yours) or on the page markup in the alt= markup. Remember these images are on WikiMedia, so anyway need captions that say what they are to users who do not have any page context, or find them in the future via search engines. One caption is a mixture of English and Italian. As an example to consider: 'Plaque in honour of the alpinist William Paton Ker, Old Church cemetery, Macunaga, Italy'; etc,

I have corrected the alt=markup since Wikimedia does not allow me to edit the captionLIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

• images: add some relevant images to other text sections e.g. art/architecture

• translate Italian words and phrases in to English (for the English audience) with the Italian in brackets e.g. for Buscainii's book titles, etc.

• links out: you need to develop more content that links out. Some will become available when you create content related to art, architecture, etc.

• Page title: have you got the correct page title? Should it be in English, with the Italian name in brackets)? Is this the same church as The Old Church of Staffa, Macugnaga? If so, is this the correct name? And why 'Staffa'?

We looked at examples of similar pages (namely italian churches in the english Wikipedia) and they would all write the name in Italian (Chiesa Vecchia), then a comma and the location. We have written Macugnaga and not Staffa because Staffa is the name of an area of the town of Macugnaga, but in terms of jurisdiction, we are in the village of Macugnaga.LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

• Are you going to mention the ancient lime/linden tree? Or is this covered in the existing page on the village - check.

• Grammar & style: I have made c.10 edits to the grammar. A few errors remain to be corrected and avoided e.g. 'appasionate in mountaneering'; 'several works about his escalations';etc. Avoid the use of words like 'however', etc.

• Burials: list could be organized in chronological order

• images: can you source a plan of the church, and/or a map showing it's location in the valley/village?

Limelightangel (talk) 15:20, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

We have added the map in the infobox.LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

• try and find a reference for the Cemetery fact on Ettore Zapparoli. There may be a good Italian news source on the finding of his body in 2007. My English source is just a poor quality blog: http://stresatravelnotes.blogspot.com/2012/07/stresa-travels-afternoon-off-to.html

We have added two reliable sourcesLIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Limelightangel (talk) 15:37, 26 November 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for your feedback. We are following your advice and we are trying to improve our page.LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Dorf and Old Linden

Do you think we should add two sections, one for the Dorf and one for the Old Linden? In the Dorf section we could write about the small nucleus of huts in larch trunks stuck together which belonged to the ancient Walser community. While in the Old Linden section we could write that its age goes back seven centuries and the population used to gather under its branches. Do you agree?LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 07:00, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

The introduction already has a small mention of these so I agree. It might be good idea to include a section that tells a little more about them. --LIUC4Ilari04 (talk) 08:41, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

I agree with the idea of splitting it into two sections, in order to add more informtions and stories about both of them. I think there is an important part of history behind them.LIUC4Gabriele04 (talk) 12:54, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Message for Student editors

Please advise your students to follow some of the basic rules outlined in the Manual of Style, especially those on bolding, duplicate links, and overlinked terms. They have also removed valid tags from statements without providing a source. I've been reverting quite a few of their edits over the past few hours and see that there's still hundreds that need to be checked for compliance. SounderBruce 10:41, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

   Many thanks. I will reinforce this with them, be having meetings with them to review their recent work and the many issues. They have repeatedly had this advice but clearly need it emphasizing. Thanks for the feedback. Limelightangel (talk) 14:47, 2 December 2022 (UTC)

Draft review, 03/12/22

• you will need to add External Links, and a See Also section to your page - see similar pages, and use Wikipedia:External_links, Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Layout#"See_also"_section. Understand the differences between these sections, avoid duplication, and their differences to References and links in the text.

• references: check the conventions on referencing non-English sources. Ref. 19 is in UPPER CASE. Do the archive 'Documents' have titles or authors to improve the references?

• grammar/style: I have made a number of minor edits today (see Page History). Avoid the use of things like 'In the meanwhile' and 'as mentioned above', etc. There remain some issues to fix and avoid e.g. the use of 'Finally', etc.

• structure: should the section on environmental damage be removed, and this content located in the relevant History sections, which already duplicates some of it? There is also some duplication related to other content e.g. Bell Tower

We have deleted the environmental damage section and we have adapted it to the history section to avoid duplication. We have also dealt with the Bell Tower issue. Now in the history section there is a small mention related to the renovation work in which it was built and then in the Bell Tower section there is its description nowadays to avoid duplication of information.LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 12:15, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

• image location: add relevant images to the architecture/art section, and justify them to fit the text here. Is there an acceptable image for the Linden tree? Somewhere there is a claim that it is the oldest living tree in Italy, which I have added in the intro. summary - but these needs a source.

We could not find any source claiming that the Linden tree is the oldest living tree in Italy. All the sources we have found refer to a tree located in Sardinia.LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 12:16, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

• note the very encouraging comment at the top of your draft page, from Deb talk:
• Comment: I happened to spot this draft and I think it's more than ready for review. You're welcome to submit it. If you let me know when you've done that, I'll pass it myself. Deb (talk) 14:20, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

I suggest you address the issues in my feedback here, submit the page for review, notify Deb talk, and continue to improve the page. When you contact them for a review, there is nothing to stop you asking for any further suggestions.

Limelightangel (talk) 12:56, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for your suggestion. We will follow your advice: we will address the draft review suggestions before Monday, so we can discuss about it during the tutor meetings.LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 17:39, 3 December 2022 (UTC)

Legends and myths

I have found some legends related to the Old Church that trace back to the Walser community which used to live in the Dorf. Maybe we could add a section with brief summaries of the most interesting legends. Do you agree?LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 10:03, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, if they relate explicitly to the Old Church, and not just to the village. Limelightangel (talk) 10:46, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, most of them take place in the Old Church or its cemetery, while others relate to the history of the Old Church, such as the flood of 1640.LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 10:58, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. I think it could be an interesting section to add for the future readers of this page. This part could get the attention of many readers appasionate in myths and curious stories.LIUC4Gabriele04 (talk) 11:54, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

I agree it could made the page more interesting and readable for the future readers LIUC4Matteo04 (talk) 12:57, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Copyedit Tag

Hi @Rosguill: sorry to bother, should all the bullet points be converted into prose or just some of them? Sometimes we had put them to lighten the content for the reader. Moreover, is there any particular suggestion to improve subject headings? Thanks in advance. LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 11:17, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

LIUC4Giulia04, the relevant guideline is WP:PROSE. There are occasionally situations where bullet points are appropriate, but generally speaking, whenever it's plausible to present something as prose we should use prose. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 15:50, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks Rosguill for the useful suggestions. We will try to follow them to improve the page. LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 16:53, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Removing Copyedit Tag

I think we have addressed the issues highlighted in the copyedit tag. The help resources of Wikipedia claim that we are allowed to remove it once we have satisfied the suggestions mentioned in it. Do you agree? Should we remove it? LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 20:41, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

I think you made some significant improvements, but skimming over the page I see plenty of awkward phrases, misspellings and grammatical issues. I think you've done what you can and should leave the tag up to attract a native English speaker to copyedit it more thoroughly. _signed, Rosguill ^talk 21:18, 8 December 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the advice, we will follow it. In the meanwhile, we will also copyedit the page more thoroughly to achieve a better result. LIUC4Giulia04 (talk) 07:11, 9 December 2022 (UTC)