Talk:Canada men's national football team

Reverting recent move (2013)

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I've reverted this undiscussed move to "Canada national American football team". First off, it's not really accurate; though American football rules are used in IFAF competitions, the background of the Canadian team and its players is in Canadian football; in fact Football Canada specifically oversees Canadian football. Second, in Canada the word "football" refers to the gridiron game, rather than to soccer or any other sport, so we go with the national variety of English. Finally, on a related note, while the national "association football" team is higher profile, it's not called the national "football" team in Canada, it's called the soccer team.--Cúchullain ^t/c 18:47, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

I support Cúchullain's reversion of this title. I do not believe that "American" is needed in this title any more than it is needed in the name of any other team that plays "American" football (e.g. the Miami Dolphins American football team). bd2412 T 14:46, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

The reason it needs to be moved is one of primary topic (in most of the world, football refers to soccer) and naming conventions (every other national American football team is worded as NATION American football team). There's more to this than just sticking the word "American" in. The Miami Dolphins are a poor example because they are the primary topic for all articles named Miami Dolphins. This isn't the primary topic for all articles named "Canada national football team" pbp 14:49, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Well, the RM is progressing, my recommendation would be to see how it pans out before adjusting the wording.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:32, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Other countries have the American in the title because they need to disambiguate between football types. However in Canada soccer is not known as football. So the American qualifier is not needed. There is the Canadian national soccer team and the Canadian national football team. Per ENGVAR you use the local name. -DJSasso (talk) 19:55, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

But that's not how the United States' is worded. Even though they call soccer soccer in Canada, the fact that they call it "football" in enough other places, plus the fact that the soccer team is more well-known than the American football team, is enough to deny the American football team PRIMARYTOPIC. That's not even taking the Australian rules football team into account. There's also the issue of consistency: this is the only Wikipedia article about an American football team that refers to it as just "football" rather than American football. Put those two issues together and you've got enough of a case to ignore ENGVAR. pbp 20:40, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Except that it isn't. ENGVAR was made specifically for these situations. Specifically so that we know we don't have to be consistent with all other pages and that its ok to have the exceptions to the "all other pages are named this way". Again there is no need for disambiguation since there is only one national football team in Canada. -DJSasso (talk) 23:26, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Wonder how the player's on Canada's national Australian rules football team feel about you saying that. Or their association football team. Or the junior American football team pbp 23:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

Players on our association football team would only every call it soccer. Soccer is pretty much never called football in this country. Nor is Australian rules football called football by itself. Its always called Aussie Rules football here. So again the only thing called football in Canada is gridiron football. -DJSasso (talk) 00:11, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Agree with Djsasso. Per WP:ENGVAR and wide consensus across Wikipedia, Canadian articles use Canadian English. The fact that "While Football Canada is the governing body for amateur Canadian football, IFAF-sponsored games are played using American football rules" is already covered in the very first paragraph, introducing "American" doesn't make things any clearer - in fact, it makes it less clear.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:13, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

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"American" versus "gridiron" (2013)

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I take issue with Djsasso's recent edit that removed instances of "American" football and replaced them with "gridiron". The team doesn't play just gridiron football. It plays American football only, and Djsasso's wording change to "gridiron" lacks specificity and is in general POV-pushy. pbp 23:43, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

That wasn't my replacement, that was my revert of your change that was clearly disputed. They do not only play American football only. They play exhibition games against teams in Canada using Canadian rules. Unless you have a source that proves otherwise. Either way gridiron covers both American and Canadian rules football thus eliminating any argument and POV pushing by someone who wants to make sure American is listed everywhere. -DJSasso (talk) 00:08, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Your claim about exhibition matches is unsourced, and a brief check by me turned up nothing. "American football" is the name of the sport, so it seems acceptabledesirable for it to be used pbp 01:36, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

Djsasso is right, "gridiron football" (or just "football") covers all the sports known as "football" in Canada just fine. Either way the wording shouldn't have been changed while the RM is still going on. It will probably be best to wait until that shakes out before we discuss the necessity or otherwise of wording changes along these lines.--Cúchullain ^t/c 03:13, 28 November 2013 (UTC)

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Move discussion in progress (2013)

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There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Canada national football team (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 14:45, 27 November 2013 (UTC)

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Requested move 3 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Those opposing the move have just made their case here, in particular citing ENGVAR, conciseness, and the variations in how this team plays according to different rules in some domestic matches. I also reflected on previous RM discussions. I took the comments on board made regarding consistency with other article titles, however these other factors were sufficient to overcome this argument to keep the page at it's current location. (closed by non-admin page mover) Steven Crossin ^{Help resolve disputes!} 21:13, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

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Canada national football team → Canada national American football team – To avoid ambiguity. "Football" has many different meanings. "American football" specifies the sport clearly. The U.S. national team page is United States national American football team and the Canada women's page is Canada women's national American football team as well for this reason. The term "football" in Canada refers mostly to Canadian football played with 12 men. This team is NOT a Canadian football team, it is an American football team represented by Canada. This difference should be made clear in the page title. TrailBlzr (talk) 20:02, 3 July 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. — Newslinger talk 23:33, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment It seems this has been discussed before above, and in this RM, and here. Consensus seems to have generally been against the addition of 'American' qualifier. I'm actually not sure how the women's team ended up at that name - based on the talk page, it seems like someone moved it, someone else said "hey, I don't think that was a good move - see these earlier discussions", then they had a few comments back and forth and the discussion fizzled out, so the article just stayed at that name. Colin M (talk) 20:56, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose I tried looking into the terminology that Canadian RS use when referring to these teams (something I found lacking from the discussions linked above). This article says "tackle football games". This article refers to Canada women's national American football team as "Canadian women's tackle football team" in the headline, and uses "tackle football" throughout the body. This article uses "women's world football championship" in the title. This article uses "football junior worlds" in the title. All of these articles are talking about IFAF events. None of them use the phrase "American football" except when giving the full expanded name of IFAF. RS seem to give no support for the name. Colin M (talk) 21:16, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: Canada is the only national team (including the United States) that does not use the format [Country] national American football team. "Football" is just too ambiguous, even for the U.S. national team. Furthermore, this article is about the team that competes in IFAF competitions. IFAF football is NOT the football commonly played in Canada; it is American football. "Football" in Canada refers to Canadian football, not American football. TrailBlzr (talk) 21:33, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
  • The US isn’t an appropriate comparison. In America the team is managed by a system that uses American rules across the board. In Canada, the system is Canadian football but uses American rules for IFAF games.—Cúchullain ^t/c 15:18, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
    • This team only plays American football, despite the fact Canadian football is played in Canada. That only makes it more necessary for American football to be used in the title as to not to confuse the majority of people who would assume that the Canadian national team would be playing Canadian football TrailBlzr (talk) 19:18, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
      • Considering the team is involved in both American and Canadian football - and both are recognized as just "football" in Canada (and the US) - adding the "American" verbiage will just add unnecessary confusion.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support, since football in Canada can refer to a number of different codes, with American football not quite the most popular one, necessitating further disambiguation. -- Earl Andrew - talk 21:42, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
• Support per nom - "football" in Canada could refer to one of many things, so it's necessary to clarify. Paintspot Infez (talk) 22:35, 3 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. The new title is confusing because it implies a connection to the U.S. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 14:54, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
  • This problem does not appear with every single other national team, which all use "American football" in their titles. TrailBlzr (talk) 19:20, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose for the reasons above and at the last RM. “American football” isn’t accurate here. While IFAF games use American football rules, the background of the players is Canadian football and Football Canada is the administrator of American football. Just “football” is the better disambiguator, and what would be used by Canadians. It’s also an WP:ENGVAR issue: this is the only team that would be called the “football” team in the country in question, where association football is known as “soccer”.—Cúchullain ^t/c 15:13, 4 July 2019 (UTC)
  • @Cuchullain: Your point that most of the players backgrounds is in Canadian football and that Football Canada organizes the team only further necessitates the use of "American football" in the title. This article is only about the Canadian national team which competes in IFAF competitions. This team only plays American football. Without the use of "American", it would be reasonable for most people to think that the "Canada national football team" plays Canadian football, which it does not. Canada is also not the only country to call association football "soccer". The U.S. also does yet their team page is "United States national American football team" when they have even less of a reason to disambiguate than Canada does. - TrailBlzr (talk) 19:12, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

The article is about a "football" team that's involved in both Canadian and American football - it plays using American rules in the international competitions, but it's the representative of the Canadian football organization and comprises Canadian football players. Canadians recognize either variety as "football", and there's no other sport they would call "football". Adding "American" to this article is confusing and potentially misleading. This confusion doesn't exist in America where the structure is American football from the start.--Cúchullain ^t/c 19:31, 5 July 2019 (UTC)

• Support a) This is about an IFAF team, and b) Canada national football team should be a disambiguation. pbp 20:39, 5 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose This team is both American and Canadian football, so using American in the name would be deceptive and incorrect. This this has been well established in the past. -DJSasso (talk) 11:29, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

• That's just not true. This team only plays American football, regardless of the background of the players. TrailBlzr (talk) 17:23, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

• Comment Suggestion sure is clunky. What do other countries do for their national american football teams? MaskedSinger (talk) 15:19, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

Other countries use "American football", but their organizations are only involved in American football. Canada is an unusual case in that it's the Canadian football structure fielding a football team that plays in competitions that use the American rules.--Cúchullain ^t/c 16:11, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

• Every single other country uses the format [Country] national American football team TrailBlzr (talk) 17:21, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

• As has been pointed out to you, other countries don't have a team that involves two types of football. -DJSasso (talk) 17:28, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

• IFAF teams only play American football. TrailBlzr (talk) 21:32, 8 July 2019 (UTC)

• When they are playing in IFAF events, however when they are playing exhibition they often play Canadian rules. That being said I was referring to the fact that they are the national football team for the Canadian football system which plays Canadian football. But really the main reason here is WP:CONCISE. -DJSasso (talk) 16:49, 15 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose per WP:CONCISE. No need to disambiguate here, considering Canadians call association football "soccer". Calidum 04:03, 11 July 2019 (UTC)

• So do Americans and Australians. Also, Canadian football is a much different game than the American football played in IFAF competitions. TrailBlzr (talk) 08:28, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move 30 August 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved. (non-admin closure) Cwmhiraeth (talk) 10:38, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

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Canada national football team → Canada men's national football team – Given the fact that there is a Canada women's national football team article as well. It is typical in Canada to disambiguate national sports teams as the "men's national team" and "women's national team" rather than referring to men's national team as simply "the national team". Football Canada, the official governing body of both national teams, refers to this team as "Canada’s Senior Men’s National Team". Furthermore, it isn't clear and obvious that this team is in any way more noteworthy than the women's team, given the fact that they have only played 4 competitive games in their entire history, which is less than half as many as the women's team has played. This team has only competed in one IFAF men's World Championship, while the women's team has competed in all three IFAF Women's World Championships. TrailBlzr (talk) 18:50, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

• Strong support the women have had more success as well and Canadians resonate more with the women's side anyhow. Walter Görlitz (talk) 01:01, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
• Strong support Men and women are equally Representatives of Canada. Mr Serjeant Buzfuz (talk) 02:11, 2 September 2019 (UTC)
• Strongly support per nom - the women are more successful, and they both equally represent Canada. Paintspot Infez (talk) 01:50, 8 September 2019 (UTC)

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Requested move 18 January 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. There is no agreement about whether the current name is sufficiently WP:PRECISE, and, if not, what to do about it. (non-admin closure) (t · c) buidhe 01:00, 26 January 2021 (UTC)

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Canada men's national football team → Canada men's national gridiron football team – For the sake of consistency with all other articles in Category:Men's national American football teams and Category:Women's national American football teams, I would suggest that the article be moved to Canada men's national American football team. However, an argument was put forward in a previous RM that this team also takes part in Canadian football games, although from what I can see, its only competitive involvement has been in games or tournaments where American rules are used. Nevertheless, because the team has its roots in Canadian football, I don't necessarily think it's reasonable to ignore that sport entirely in the article title. My problem, therefore, is that the current title is not specific enough. Anyone looking at the title of this article could reasonably be confused about what code of "football" it refers to. They might assume that this is the Canada men's national Canadian football team, but that would be wrong since there's no evidence they play using Canadian football rules. They might also assume that it's the Canada men's national association football team, as most of the articles in Category:National association football teams use just "football" to refer to their sport, but we know that's wrong too. It therefore makes the most sense to either go with Canada men's national American football team (as that's the sport they actually play and would bring the article in line with all other national American football team articles), or Canada men's national gridiron football team, as that would encompass the code we know they definitely play and the one they might play, to the exclusion of all others. – PeeJay 11:52, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support move per nom. O.N.R. ^(talk) 15:12, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose This has already been discussed in 2013 and 2019 and the consensus was to not move. From WikiProjectFootball talk page, this comes from the nominator wanting the soccer team to take this article name, when it should remain at soccer. The current hatnote is sufficient. RedPatchBoy (talk) 16:25, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
  • @RedPatchBoy: Whether or not the soccer team's page moves is irrelevant to this discussion, as are the previous nominations. As the nominator of this move, I ask you to take this one into account only. And for what it's worth, I would oppose moving the soccer team's article to Canada men's national football team. – PeeJay 16:31, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

@PeeJay:, since MaioT posted this RM on the other page and was the one who wanted to move soccer to this, I thought he was the only who nominated this, I didn't realize it was you, which was why I wrote that. Regardless, I still Oppose the move. I think the hatnote is sufficient and the article is clear enough that after a couple seconds one won't think it is referring to the soccer team. RedPatchBoy (talk) 16:38, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support move. The current title is ambiguous. At first glance, I thought this was an article about association football team. Maiō T. (talk) 16:34, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related page moves. GiantSnowman 16:47, 18 January 2021 (UTC)

• Support - the use of 'football' is ambiguous, and could refer to 'soccer' as much as it does 'gridiron'. Moving the page and turning Canada men's national football team into a disambiguation page is the sensible way forward. GiantSnowman 16:49, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose - Per WP:CONCISE. There is no need to disambiguate here. "Canada" makes it clear it's not soccer in view here, as Canadians call association football "soccer". Any ambiguity can be made clear in hatnotes and the lead as it's currently done now. BilCat (talk) 17:33, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
  • @BilCat: There's concise and there's concise. This is *too* concise, as noted in the nomination. Furthermore, even the United States men's national American football team article uses "American football" in the title, so what makes this one so special? I agree hatnotes are useful, but it would make more sense to avoid ambiguity in the article title, especially when this team apparently plays more than one code of football (and Canadian football isn't even the one they play most!) – PeeJay 17:42, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
    • I actually don't think the US team needs to say "American" either! The England national football team title doesn't say "Association". If this one is moved, we'll probably have to move all national "football" team articles to avoid any possible confusion. BilCat (talk) 18:36, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose I did not know we had a team that played gridiron football internationally, but there is no confusion with the term in Canada. Canada has Canadian football, American football and soccer. Walter Görlitz (talk) 18:00, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Concur. "Football" in Canada can mean either or both, as is documented in several relevant articles. Even Americans can use it to mean either or both types, once the context is clarified. BilCat (talk) 18:42, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose This team plays both versions of football which are referred to as football in Canada. Nobody calls it gridiron football. They just call it football. Smartyllama (talk) 19:40, 18 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose. Canada men's national American football team would be the right name, since, as noted, Canadian football is not played internationally. 162.208.168.92 (talk) 00:22, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:ENGVAR and the arguments above and in previous discussions. There's simply not a better option here. This team is associated with both Canadian football and American football. It's the representative of Football Canada, and it plays games using the American rules in the international competitions. In Canada, and the US, both games are known as "football". "Gridiron football" is not an acceptable term as it isn't used as a catchall for both Canadian and American varieties in sources or in either country - our article gridiron football is also misnamed. There's no risk of confusing a Canadian (or American) reader with this name, as it's the only thing that would be known as the "men's national football team" locally, and others looking for the soccer team can find it through the hat note.--Cúchullain ^t/c 15:44, 19 January 2021 (UTC)
• Oppose WP:ENGVAR. That other "football" is called soccer, not football. This is not a soccer team, but it is a football team. All the other soccer teams in non-English localities have no bearing on Canadian English. And British English has no bearing on Canadian English use of football. Further most English speaking places seem to use soccer traditionally except when pressured by FIFA to change their local names to "football" (ie. South Africa, Australia, USA, Canada all traditionally use "soccer" not "football" for that other sport) -- 70.31.205.108 (talk) 02:06, 20 January 2021 (UTC)
  • Again, we're not talking about the soccer team. This move request has nothing to do with the soccer team, other than that most people in the world (contrary to your assertion) would assume that the use of the single word "football" in the title would refer to the soccer team. The reason this move was requested was because this team doesn't just play generic "football". It doesn't even play Canadian football, by all accounts, which is why either Canada men's national American football team or Canada men's national gridiron football team would be a better title than the current one. – PeeJay 11:09, 20 January 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.