Talk:Budapest Metro

[Untitled]

I find it hard to find any information about the plans for line 4 and 5 on the internet (except for the metro4.hu site that barely has any new info). Now I found in the Budapest Times some articles concerning metro 4 and 5, and I'd like to post that here before I loose those links again... Besides the fact that the links are useful to me they can also be useful for future editors of this article...

• Metro line five could link suburbs to heart of Budapest
• Transportation tenders tend not to go smoothly
• EU Commissioner praises Hungary’s use of funding
• More scandals of the same vein and protests much the same
• More funds on the way for road works

Maartenvdbent 12:45, 11 February 2006 (UTC)

I am Christo from hungarian wikipedia. I uploaded a few pictures. I am the editor of metros.hu page. I have a lot of information about Budapest metro. Urban and Suburban Transit Association (Városi és Elővárosi Közlekedési Egyesület) created a plan about unite of the metro line 2 and hév gödöllő. But the city government not totally agreed with this plan. But maybe after 2015 this will be bulided. Sorry for my english:S

Here is a few old map

• 1976 plans
• 1984 plans
• Old suburban line map

Some stations have old names: in the Millennium Underground there are a lot of old names, but i remember only that Oktogon was November 7 tér (tér=square, út=road, utca=street, híd=bridge).

• Bajcsy-Zsilinszky út was Váczy körút
• Kodály körönd was Körönd
• Vörösmarty tér was Gizella tér
• Hősők tere (Heroes's square) was Aréna út

And there was a phase in overground, that contains two stations Állatkert (Zoo) and Artézi fürdő (Artesian bath), this is the old name of Széchenyi fürdő.

Line 2:

• Stadionok (Stadums) was Népstadion (Folkstadion)
• Örs Vezér tere (Square of Leader Örs) was Fehér út (White road)

Line 3:

• Népliget (Folkgrove) was Könyves Kálmán körút (körút=boulevard)
• Ferenciek tere was Felszabadulás tér (Liberation square)
• Nyugati pályaudvar (Western Railway station) was (Marx square)
• Lehel tér was Élmunkás tér (Gaffer square)

and the phase of Újpest have not builded long time ,in the plans there was another names of the stations:

• Újpest-Központ (Newpest-Centre) was Bajcsy-Zsilinszky út
• Újpest-Városkapu (Newpest-Towngate) was Újpest Vasúti megállóhely (Newpest Railway station)
• Gyöngyösi utca was Meder utca

if you walk near Gyöngyösi utca station, you can see an old station-table in that peron, where the trains go to Kőbánya-Kispest (Stonemine-Smallpest).

In Stadionok station (line2) are 4 tracks, because on the old plans the line 2 terminal was the Stadionok station (in that times: Népstadion). The two tracks in the side had used by the Gödöllői HÉV (Suburban line). In the next plan, the other 2 tracks extended to North-Kőbánya, and this pjase had had three stations (Kőbánya-Felső, Kőbánya-Alsó, Zalka Máté tér).

The line 3 extension to north will have maybe 4 stations (Rózsa utca - underground, Rákospalota-Újpest vasúti megállóhely (not decided), Óceánárok utca - overground, Megyeri út - overground) and with this, in Káposztásmegyer will build an another depo for metro line 3. About the airport extension the city leaders decided: this will not unfortunately.

Metro line 5. Thid named Észak-Déli regionális gyorsvasút (North-South regional rapid railway). Between Kaszásdűlő and Lágymányosi híd will underground. And in the future, the Esztergom railway line will connect to this line.

Christo (HuWiki)

Nice article

Szia!

I learned a lot about the Budapesti metró. I thank everyone for contritbuting to this wonderful article. I'll try to edit this article any way I can.

--Starionwolf 04:03, 21 May 2006 (UTC)

2nd oldest subway?

Both this page and the page on the Istanbul "Tünel" make the claim that they are the second oldest subway system in the world (after the London Underground). Can anyone verify which one is correct and make the necessary edit? -- Hux 17:31, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

Technically the Istanbul Tünel is older (1875 vs. 1896), but the Istanbul Tünel isn't a subway in a classical sense. It is a short track with only two station, and only meant to connect two neighborhoods with each other. Maartenvdbent 17:40, 23 May 2006 (UTC)

The Tünel is a train, it's underground, it has stations, and people use it to get from one place to another. How is that not a subway? phrawzty (talk) 14:36, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

It debatable if the Tünel is a subway at all. It is more like an elevator being pulled by cables and very steep. But most importantly it fails in not being a network nor rapid-transit. It is two stations at each end of a tunnel or rather an inclined shaft. The second oldest rapid-transit network is the Mersey Railway in Liverpool now a part of Merseyrail (1886). Wiki seems to forget this underground railway in Liverpool.188.222.102.255 (talk)

Maybe it's "forgotten" because an OVERHEAD railway is not an UNDERGROUND railway. Fork me (talk) 03:51, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

The Mersey Railway was mainly underground. It had the first deep level stations, whereas London's was cut and cover, just below the surface. It is now a part of the Wirral Line of Merseyrail. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wisdom-inc (talk • contribs) 17:35, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

The Liverpool Overhead Railway was underground at the southern en. The station is still there with its access tunnel. 152.37.91.247 (talk) 22:32, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

The Tunel is an elevator with an inclined shaft with a large passenger car. No more. 143.58.246.235 (talk) 22:45, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

In the Netherlands we have train stations that are completely underground as well (Schiphol railway station is a good example), but nobody would classify that as a subway. Maarten (talk) 15:17, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Well, my respect for you all, but Tünel seems not to fall under the definition of a metro system, in agreement with both the history of rapid transit (25km/h, horses, etc.) and the current state of Tünel. See the definition's first sentence below (by the way, adhering to this stricter definition, Hungary has been beaten by only 6 years! ;->). bkil (talk) 22:44, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

A rapid transit, underground, subway, elevated railway or metro(politan) system is an electric passenger railway in an urban area with high capacity and frequency, and grade separation from other traffic.

The above definition is wrong. The propulsion method is irrelevant.

Turkey was an agricultural country, foreigner built the tüne. It's not considered metro.--Celebration1981 (talk) 10:15, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Being agricultural is irrelevant and who built it is irrelevant. The Tünel is a large car elevator.188.222.102.255 (talk)

Major revision -- move future stuff

I think that most readers of this page will want information about the current information about the Budapest metro. In particular, I think that having the only map showing lines that don't exist is a disservice.

This is not to say I don't like the description of plans for the future, just that I think that, like "history" "future" should be a separate section.

I propose to do a rather serious revision of the page along the lines of adding material found at http://drott.cis.drexel.edu/hungary/budametro.html (my website) but in conformance with the Wikipedia guidelines.

Let me know if you have feelings about this

By the way, I remember that about three years ago one of the political candidates had posters showing her plans to expand the subway system. Some humorist had defaced them with a line running west from Deli and a box labled "Kanada!" I think some of the proposals that have been seriously made are about that likely.

what links here

there is no linke from Budapest, that seems odd, no? also, there is no real link from BKV, just the weird link under "usage." if someone could please rework those articles to included a nice clear link, that would be great. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 151.201.18.104 (talk) 13:46, 26 March 2007 (UTC).

Better "usage" section?

Perhaps the "Usage" section could be made clearer.

I was told a ticket entitles the user to use one line only. If you need to change to another line, you have to buy a separate ticket for that line, too. If this is true, this surely is something sufficiently unusual to Budapest that will trip the average European/American visitor up.

From the January of 2009 a single ticket will be valid for one hour, and you will able to change without buying two tickets. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.98.245.116 (talk) 18:06, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

The relevance of New York and Chicago

Budapest claims to be the second oldest underground/subway in the world and this according to other Wikipedia pages is entirely correct. Older Metro/'L' systems do exist in both New York and Chicago, but with no underground sections at all until the 20th century (as late as 1943 for Chicago), they can not surely be grounds to demote Budapest to fourth oldest underground. There is no rationale for such logic, but this page did hold that view for a few days. If that editor's logic were extended any older railway system could create a new 21st century metro style section, with an underground element, and become the 'oldest in the world', surely a nonsense. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.8.231.166 (talk) 19:19, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Please name an older underground system! You can't!

This article is incorrect. and so are many wiki articles. The oldest underground/partially underground rapid-transit system in the world was the Metropolitan Railway now a part of London Underground (1863), the next was the Mersey Railway now a part of Merseyrail in Liverpool (1886). Budadpest is third. 188.222.102.255 (talk) 06:15, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

The Mersey Railway, was the world's first deep level underground railway. Two stations were very deep needing elevators to access them, as stairs would be too long to walk. Much of the tunnelling is bored, not 100% cut and cover as was the Metropolitan Railway in London. 94.192.60.122 (talk) 07:49, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The Mersey Railway was steam hauled until 1903 until electric traction was introduced. It was the second oldest metro in the world, but the Liverpool Overhead Railway was the second partially underground electric metro (1896, when underground) after London and before Budapest. 94.192.60.122 (talk) 08:28, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

In the case when a railway go trough a hill/mountain between two villages are not considered as underground.--84.0.91.232 (talk) 10:43, 23 July 2012 (UTC)

Good point. I would say no as the stations are not underground. 94.192.60.122 (talk) 07:35, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Liverpool Overhead Railway is older

The Liverpool Overhead Railway, a metro, was 100% electric and elevated when opening in 1893. An underground extension was added and opened in 1896. A surface section was also added. Both dates pre-date the Budapest metro. Budapest's first line was partially underground as was the Liverpool Overhead Railway before it. The article is incorrect. The Liverpool Overhead was also the first to use Electric multiple unit trains and signal lights. 94.192.60.122 (talk) 08:10, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

I added the Liverpool Overhead Railway to the article to correct historical inaccuracies. 94.192.60.122 (talk) 08:21, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

The Liverpool system was almost completely overground, having a short tunnel section added doesn't really make it an underground Metro system. I have re-edited the article to make things clearer. Fork me (talk) 03:53, 27 June 2019 (UTC)

The Liverpool Overhead Railways was still a metro. It was elevated, overground and underground. Metros are not necessarily underground in full or part. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wisdom-inc (talk • contribs) 17:24, 24 March 2022 (UTC)

Most of London's Underground is actually on the surface. 143.58.246.235 (talk) 16:57, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

Extension to Ferenc Liszt Airport

I've added a 'Citation Needed' to the section about the extension to Ferihegy being "unlikely, given the existing rail link from Nyugati".

The railway station for the airport is located next to terminal 1, which has now shut down. All flights now leave from terminal 2, which is several kilometres from terminal 1 and the railway station.

If anyone has any reliable information in Hungarian that can be translated into English, please add a reference to this sentence. Unfortunately, the college I work for blocks access to translating tools because it classifies them as anonymising tools, so I can't verify these details myself.

Köszönöm

195.194.196.54 (talk) 10:05, 29 October 2012 (UTC)

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Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Budapest Metro/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

needs references

Last edited at 13:55, 24 October 2006 (UTC). Substituted at 10:29, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

Confusion at what was first

The oldest metro in the world:

1. The oldest metro (urban rail network) in the world was the 1863 Metropolitan line in London. It was underground and overground. It gave the name 'metro' to these types of networks. Now a part of London Underground.
2. New York elevated IRT Ninth Avenue Line. 1872.
3. The Merseyrail Railway in 1886, now a part of Merseyrail at Liverpool.
4. The City and South London Line,. Now a part of London Underground. 1890.
5. Chicago "L". 1892.
6. The Liverpool elevated and underground Overhead railway, 1893.
7. The Budapest Metro in 1896.

This should be mentioned in the article. It is so simple, yet people keep changing it. How the metros were propelled, steam, electric, cable, etc, is irrelevant, as they are all urban metro networks.

Some nitpick on world firsts like first electric or first underground or whatever. Being first on the European Continent is irrelevant as being the first metro in Hungary. First electric metros:

1. The City & South London Line. 1890. Underground. Now a part of London Underground.
2. Liverpool Overhead Railway, elevated electric railway. 1893. Surface extension in 1894 and an underground extension in 1896.
3. Budapest Metro. Underground and overground. 1896.

It quite clear. 94.3.125.209 (talk) 09:00, 15 August 2016 (UTC)

I don't want to revive an old thread but I must respond to your question. If Budapest is to be listed as a first in continental Europe, it must then be described properly: The first electrified underground railway in continental Europe. If electrified is not used, then it is the 2nd (or 3rd, if non-existent lines are counted) oldest underground urban railway in continental Europe. The Tünel in Istanbul pre-dates Line 1 of the Budapest metro by 21 years. (1875) Therefore when claiming Budapest is first, one must use certain words to make distinctions and not mislead readers. (Central Data Bank (talk) 11:08, 27 March 2022 (UTC))

Continental Europe should not be used. It is what was world first.

The Tunel in Istanbul is more an inclined cable hauled elevator. 143.58.173.57 (talk) 10:57, 27 April 2024 (UTC)

Regarding the deletion of a third of this article

I think there is some potential for cleaning up this article and adding references. The Hungarian version of this article is three times the size and is well-referenced. The German and Hebrew versions of this article are Good Articles that we can use as backbones to rewrite this article. However, I don't believe that the content should be reduced like that because it leaves a large gap in the narrative of the article. epicgenius - (talk) 21:02, 28 October 2016 (UTC)

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Contradiction

"The Glasgow Subway [...] is the third-oldest underground metro system in the world after the London Underground and the Budapest Metro."

"The Budapest Metro [...] is [...] the third-oldest electrically operated underground railway in the world."

People usually vie for first place, subways apparently vie for third.

There might be ways to make it logically consistent, but it's horrible writing at best. 91.10.3.7 (talk) 02:57, 6 November 2018 (UTC)

The first ELECTRIC underground railway system was not London Metro

The first electric underground railway system was not London Metro, but the Budapest. Read the history of London metro: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_London_Underground#Electric_underground_railways_(1900%E2%80%931908)

A more exact article about the electrification of the London metro is here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_Electric_Railways_Company_of_London

The London metro was a steam powered metro system until the 20th century. Most London metro lines were electrified only in the interwar period.

In contrast, the Budapest metro was originally designed and built with electric traction system.

--Csataelőkészítő (talk) 13:26, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Our article on the London Underground says: "This opened in 1890 with electric locomotives". Also you removed "is only pre-dated by Tünel in Istanbul (opened 1875),". Nigej (talk) 13:36, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Have you read the many comments above? Nigej (talk) 13:38, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

Tünnel is not an unerground railway system. It had horse drawn carriages and have only two stations. https://www.codatu.org/partenaire/iett-istanbul-electricity-tramway-and-tunnel/

Folowing that false logic, all railway lines in the Alps are underground mero systems in Italy , in Austria and in Germany, since many villages have tunnels under the moutains wich connect them to the next villages.

"METRO" of ALPINE VILLAGES?????

See how many "metro systems" are among small Alpine villages: List: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_tunnels_in_the_Alps

About London metro artile: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Underground_Electric_Railways_Company_of_London#Engineering_works

"Before its takeover, the DR had carried out some joint electrification experiments with the Metropolitan Railway (MR), the other sub-surface line with which the DR shared the Inner Circle. A section of track between Earl's Court and High Street Kensington was electrified with a four-rail system and a jointly owned test train operated a shuttle service between February and November 1900. Having proven the practicality of electric traction, the two companies set up a joint committee to select a supplier of equipment for the electrification of their networks.[3]"

Therefore, the Budapest electric metro operated since 1896, two years before the short test-line started to operate in the London metro.--Csataelőkészítő (talk) 13:47, 12 November 2022 (UTC)

You are comparing rural railways to urban railways. Like it or not, Tünel is the oldest existing underground railway line in continental Europe with the purpose of serving a population within a city. While the Budapest Metro might be the oldest electrified system in continental Europe, it IS NOT the oldest. This needs to be shown in the article, since Wikipedia should be non-POV. Also "horse-drawn" carriages?? Tünel was steam-powered and was never a "horse-drawn" railway. Cheers. (Central Data Bank (talk) 08:45, 11 December 2022 (UTC))

No, that are rural main railway lines with a lot of tunnels in Switzerland Austria and Italy and they have a lot of stations. Their main funcion to overcome the problems of natural obstacles like the big stepp "heroic" mountains and hills. In contrast, the main funcion of underground metro lines of the cities are to overcome the artificial/human made obstacles (like buildings and dense surface traffic) of the cities with the help of tunnel system with multiple stations.--Csataelőkészítő (talk) 12:16, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

So a river or a urban hill is an "artificial obstacle"? Metros (or rapid transit) are there to provide fast and reliable service for city dwellers between two or more destinations. Tünel checks both of these boxes. Ask 100 people whether an urban funicular is closer to a rural railway or a metro and 100 people will say metro. Cheers. (Central Data Bank (talk) 18:46, 12 December 2022 (UTC))

The City and South London Railway of 1890 was 100% electric and 100% underground predating Budapest. It was not incorporated into the London Underground until 1933. The all electric Liverpool Overhead predates the Budapest metro, which had a small section underground with an underground station. I hope this has cleared it for you. 143.58.246.235 (talk) 17:51, 10 April 2024 (UTC)

The first urban railways to incorporate underground tunnels and stations were:

1. 1863 - Metropolitan Railway (now a part of London Underground). Had stations underground and open to atmosphere.

2. 1886 (20 Jan)- Mersey Railway (now a part of Merseyrail). Had stations underground and open to atmosphere. Incorporated the first deep level stations and an extensive under-river tunnel.

3. 1886 (15 March)- Glasgow City and District Railway with one underground station accessed by extensive tunnel under the city centre. Now merged with the North Clyde and the Argyle railway with had one underground station.

4. 1890 - City & South London Railway. 100% underground, 100% electric.

5. 1896 (2 May)- Budapest Line 1 (now a part of Budapest Metro). Had stations and track underground and open to the atmosphere. 100% electric.

6. 1896 (14 Dec) - Glasgow Subway (All stations underground). 100% electric.

7. 1896 (21 Dec) - Liverpool Overhead Railway (Underground Dingle extension), 100% electric

They are the first urban railways in the world using underground stations and tunnels. 2A01:4B00:BB18:A600:E738:4C0D:38F4:6829 (talk) 16:21, 11 April 2024 (UTC)